Ebay sellers

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You expect me to believe these sellers on ebay opened box after box to get 4 copies of Hallowed Fountain so they could auction them off for around 60 bucks? I want to know where they are REALLY getting their copies of these expensive ass cards.
I believe that the Gnomes of Zurich are working with the Cult of Cthulu to pull off multiple copy autions on E-bay.
of course they do that
every card has to come out of a booster

the math works for them because they can get the boxes cheap from WotC themselves and because they not only sell the rares ;)
proud member of the 2011 community team
Just use common sense. If you've ever bought packs from the store you know you seldomly ever profit from it. So how are these sellers on ebay making thier profit unless they're cheating somehow?? What's to say that sheets of high priced rares aren't being cut at the factories and then sold through these sellers to the common folk at premium prices? So you get to pay an arm and leg for that #1 deck and the profits go to paying the owner of WOTC paycheck.
No. They didn't open box after box so they could auction Hallowed Fountains for $60.

They opened box after box so they can auction Hallowed Fountains, Blood Crypts, the other shocks, Angel of Serenity, Jace, Architect of Thought, Armada Wurm, Vraska the Unseen...




Also, the point you're missing is this: They are likely buying boxes for $90 or less per box. That means their boosters only cost $2.50 or less each. Needless to say, that makes it significantly easier to turn a profit than a $4 booster.

Feel free to crunch the numbers if you'd like, but ultimately it comes down to this: If you can open boxes at $90 or less each and have a good method for distributing the cards you open, you can turn a profit opening boosters.
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
Pfft if you've ever bought a booster box you would know that you pull only about 3-4 rares that are "high priced rares" out of the whole box. You don't get for example......a set of shocklands, Angel of serenity, Jace, Armada wurm. in one box. instead in one box it's more realistic to say that you would probly only pull three of those rares i just listed and rest of the rares would be trashcan fillers. So this really leads me to believe that SOMEONE got thier rares SOMEHOW without investing hundreds of dollars in packs. OR THEY WOULDN"T BE MAKING MONEY. 


and dude that's not even considering that some of these people offer free S & H which they so courteously are willing to pay for.  
there are other cards in there that can be sold to offset the costs as well
for example bulk common+uncommon, repackages etc.

if it didn't work for them they would stop it
but since they are still active just assume that their math works ;)
proud member of the 2011 community team
Except they obviously still are. You may come back with your conspiracy theory once you've crunched the numbers on the average value of a booster. I'm not going to do the math for you, (I did it once for another set. It took approximately forever) but I will tell you I'm reasonably certain that the price is over $2.50/booster.

Why? Because if it wasn't the secondary stores you're complaining about wouldn't be able to turn a profit. They are the ones who set the prices after all.

Plus, they don't have to open all the chase rares themselves. They can buy some from other players who wanted a quick way to sell it without having to do it themselves.
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)

Plus, they don't have to open all the chase rares themselves. They can buy some from other players who wanted a quick way to sell it without having to do it themselves.



Then how come some of them sell them "pack fresh" meaning they didn't come from some guy who needed 3 bucks in exchange for his 50 dollar rare
aside from the point of conversation I'd just like to say selling cards to stores is really dumb. Why would I sell some store owner my card at 25% value when I can get much more value on ebay. I mean unless I was really desperate for some spare change so I could make a telephone call or ride the bus home I would NOT sell my cards to a store. EVER

Plus, they don't have to open all the chase rares themselves. They can buy some from other players who wanted a quick way to sell it without having to do it themselves.



Then how come some of them sell them "pack fresh" meaning they didn't come from some guy who needed 3 bucks in exchange for his 50 dollar rare



So if a buyer comes into the store and pays $4.00 for a booster pack, opens it up in the store, finds a Jace, Architect of Thought and sells it to the store owner for $16.00 and buys four more packs with it, the Jace is no longer "pack fresh"?

Pretty much any card that is still in Near Mint to Mint condition will most likely be labeled as "pack fresh".  The person pulling the card out of the pack is irrelevant.

People who like to support their store, people who don't trade, and people who don't want to go through the hassle of selling their cards online are all likely to take a financial hit by selling/trading with their store owners.  Also, people who don't play the game as seriously and just like opening packs.  Not everyone cares about the value of each card, and would gladly trade a $30 mythic for a chance to open a few more packs and increase their overall quantity of cards.

I don't personally do it, but I know a lot of people that will.
I'm not sure how lucky a person can get but not everyone scoops up a Jace out of every $4 pack they buy I mean. More often than not you find yourself spending (if you buy packs) 16 bucks on 4 packs and the best card out of the whole pile of beans is "Grafdigger's cage" leaving you with a hole in your wallet and a frown on your face. damn i mean i could have bought me a large pepperoni pizza on football night instead. WTF 
Lol Robert_.
WotC also sells a certain amount of complete sets to retailers who have met a set of guidelines/goals. Dunno what those guidelines are. But if you watch eBay on a regular basis, you'll see these sealed box complete sets come up for auction once in a while. That is how many of the big retailers get their playsets. But yes, they also just open booster after booster after booster.
I bought a few boxes of RTR when it was released, $128.50 each after tax.  Maybe i was just lucky, but i remember doing the math for one of the boxes and i had my money back in something like 12-14 of the rares alone.  That was also right when the set came out, so lots of cards were inflated just because they were new.  Obviously not every box is that good, but i'd imagine that they buy in such bulk and they sell every bit of it, the Commons, Uncommons, Rares, Mythics, even all the crappy cards...that they make a decent profit from each box.  Most if not all of the big sellers have an ebay store, so they pay the ebay fees differently, which helps a lot too.     
A box of rav is $87.5 on ebay (case pricing)

The average scg pricing of a mythic is 10.8 *4.5/box = $48.6/box  
I will value all commons at $.02/card *9*36= $6.48 They can sell these via repacks or bulk lots.
I will value uncommons at $.1/card *3*36= $10.8  Both these values are low because of gates and charms

The total b4 rares and foils is  $65.88

So 87.5-65.88=  21.62 / 31.5(rares left) 
 You need $.68 per rare to break even 
2 ravduals per box would allow you to make a good profit
aside from the point of conversation I'd just like to say selling cards to stores is really dumb. Why would I sell some store owner my card at 25% value when I can get much more value on ebay. I mean unless I was really desperate for some spare change so I could make a telephone call or ride the bus home I would NOT sell my cards to a store. EVER



Personally, my time has value.  So if I really had no possible use for a card I'd probably sell it at the store Im already at rather than pay myself minimum wage to sell it on ebay.

 

aside from the point of conversation I'd just like to say selling cards to stores is really dumb. Why would I sell some store owner my card at 25% value when I can get much more value on ebay. I mean unless I was really desperate for some spare change so I could make a telephone call or ride the bus home I would NOT sell my cards to a store. EVER



Personally, my time has value.  So if I really had no possible use for a card I'd probably sell it at the store Im already at rather than pay myself minimum wage to sell it on ebay.




well i guess you have a point if you are talking lets say one card out of a pack but if you are a netdecker who paid $500 bucks for his tier 1 deck you are probly gonna wanna hit up ebay to get rid of it if you do so want to get rid of it for whatever reason 
aside from the point of conversation I'd just like to say selling cards to stores is really dumb. Why would I sell some store owner my card at 25% value when I can get much more value on ebay. I mean unless I was really desperate for some spare change so I could make a telephone call or ride the bus home I would NOT sell my cards to a store. EVER



Personally, my time has value.  So if I really had no possible use for a card I'd probably sell it at the store Im already at rather than pay myself minimum wage to sell it on ebay.




well i guess you have a point if you are talking lets say one card out of a pack but if you are a netdecker who paid $500 bucks for his tier 1 deck you are probly gonna wanna hit up ebay to get rid of it if you do so want to get rid of it for whatever reason 


You probably would. I would certainly go the extra mile to maximize profit if I were moving a lot of product (i.e. a $500 dollar deck/card package), but I'm also fine with trading my P1P1 Jace for the price of my draft + some extra on the spot with no additional hassle.

How much does your LGS charge for stuff? I ask this because I always see people referring to $4 boosters, while my LGS sells standard-legal boosters for $3.50 or $3.33 for multiples of 3. If my LGS is able to afford that, I wouldn't be surprised if WotC sells boosters for $2 or less each to retailers, making it relatively easy to turn profit from opening them.
Standard Pauper! (play it on MTGO)
$4 is the MSRP of boosters

shops get them for $2 or less (just my ignorant guess, they sell $80 boxes with profit, so it must be in that ballpark)
proud member of the 2011 community team
I hope the shop I sold my foil Trostani to at 18 cash is able to unload it, considering SCG now has them for 20.
In theory, each pack has an expected card value. If you work out the average cost of a rare and the average cost of a mythic, and let's say for the sake of argument that these are $2 and $10 respectively, then the expected value in the rare slot is

7/8 x $2 + 1/8 x $10 = $3

Ignoring the commons and uncommons, this is pretty much your expected return on opening a pack. For an average guy that would mean a $1 loss opening a pack, for an average trader opening a pack is a $1 profit.

Of course, over enough packs they make enough profit (and on the commons and uncommons, and the bonus foils) to pay for the stock they can't sell.

So, its just a question of opening enough packs that you average out ahead, but not so many that you have unsold stock.

Plus of course, most traders rob you blind if they buy cards off you.
Highwayman is right.  trades rob you blind on cards.

Most stores buy for a 1/3 and you might get half store credit.  My lgs gives 75% store credit. for stuff.  

Consider though that 1 out of 3 packs might have a $1-$2 uncommon.  That helps maximize profit.  
Many of those ebay resellers do sell either repacks or "an opened box" of product where they take $60 our of the box and charge $50 for it.
WotC also sells a certain amount of complete sets to retailers who have met a set of guidelines/goals. Dunno what those guidelines are. But if you watch eBay on a regular basis, you'll see these sealed box complete sets come up for auction once in a while. That is how many of the big retailers get their playsets. But yes, they also just open booster after booster after booster.



You might want to check out the MTGO product redemption policy for those sealed complete sets.

wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/...
WotC also sells a certain amount of complete sets to retailers who have met a set of guidelines/goals. Dunno what those guidelines are. But if you watch eBay on a regular basis, you'll see these sealed box complete sets come up for auction once in a while. That is how many of the big retailers get their playsets. But yes, they also just open booster after booster after booster.



You might want to check out the MTGO product redemption policy for those sealed complete sets.

wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/...

Yeah, I was going to say that too.  Sealed sets come from MTGO, not WotC selling complete sets.

---

As for the price of boxes.  I believe that retailers are paying more like <$60 per box.  Personally, I have bought (on two occasions) a case of boosters for $360 (i.e. $60 a box).  That's $1.67 a booster.  I'm thinking retailers probably pay about $1.5 a booster.

A sheet of RtR rares/mythics contains 121 cards. 
15 of those are mythics (1 each)
106 of those are rares (each of the 53 rares, twice)

So, the odds of getting any one mythic are 1/121
The odd of getting any one rare are 2/121

5 Duals in RtR, that's a 10/121 chance of a dual
2 planeswalkers, that's a 2/121 chance of a planeswalker

12/121 chance of getting one of those 7 high value cards
 
121 boosters = $181.5 (@1.50 per pack)
12 * $15 = $180 (I'm using you're hallowed fountain x4 = $60)

That only accounts for the dual lands and planeswalkers, ignoring all the commons, uncommons, foils, and other 109 rares/mythics you'd get in 121 packs

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$4 is the MSRP of boosters

shops get them for $2 or less (just my ignorant guess, they sell $80 boxes with profit, so it must be in that ballpark)



You'd be surprised. People buying cars make the same mistake. The number you see is the MSRP.

Wait, cars...cards...It must be a conspiracy.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
A conspiracy, by definition, is any plan carried out by more than one party. Literally everything you do with anyone else is a conspiracy.
A conspiracy, by definition, is any plan carried out by more than one party. Literally everything you do with anyone else is a conspiracy.



We need to be in a film together. Dude, Where's My Sense of Humor?
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
$4 is the MSRP of boosters

shops get them for $2 or less (just my ignorant guess, they sell $80 boxes with profit, so it must be in that ballpark)



You'd be surprised. People buying cars make the same mistake. The number you see is the MSRP.

Wait, cars...cards...It must be a conspiracy.

are you saying it is more than $2 or less?
proud member of the 2011 community team
What I mean is, car dealers show the MSRP, but not the price the dealer paid for it. This gives you a false floor, when you really want to go as close as the amount the car dealer paid as possible.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
but $80 for a box (36 boosters) is way below the MSRP, so it will reflect better what the shop is actually paying for it
they will still make a profit off of those $80, or else they wouldn't sell at that price

I don't think we can guesstimate better without actually asking a shop owner and/or WotC
proud member of the 2011 community team
Unhinged boxes went for $50 at one point. (I wish I had bought more than one).
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Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
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are you saying it is more than $2 or less?



From my understanding its right at that number.  They make most of their money from singles and not from sealed product.  The limited print runs highly marked up probably do help a little bit, but would think the most of the profit is from turning over singles quickly.
Unhinged boxes went for $50 at one point. (I wish I had bought more than one).



I think I even saw some boxes, I believe for some core sets, going for $30.  Though I doubt I will ever see a box of sealed magic cards from a set go for below 80 (maybe even 90 at this point) again.  Inflation and popularity have slowly taken over.
Unhinged boxes went for $50 at one point. (I wish I had bought more than one).


if only you knew then. I would have done it too. sadface.jpeg
Pfft if you've ever bought a booster box you would know that you pull only about 3-4 rares that are "high priced rares" out of the whole box. You don't get for example......a set of shocklands, Angel of serenity, Jace, Armada wurm. in one box. instead in one box it's more realistic to say that you would probly only pull three of those rares i just listed and rest of the rares would be trashcan fillers. So this really leads me to believe that SOMEONE got thier rares SOMEHOW without investing hundreds of dollars in packs. OR THEY WOULDN"T BE MAKING MONEY. 


and dude that's not even considering that some of these people offer free S & H which they so courteously are willing to pay for.  



I digress. I got one box for RtR, yielded me 5-7 shocklands, serenity, vraska, armada wurm and those are just off the top of my head. Sure, there were a lot of valueless cards, but if i had bought it at 90$, those alone would have been enough to make most of the money back. And knowing my luck, it was not all that special.

Also, it is true that most of the other cards are trash, but when you have enough of them it adds up, especially if some of those are 1$ uncommons like the charms. While we may look at individual cards, we should consider how much money you could potentially make if you bought the boosters cheaper than most sites sell them (internet price of a booster is 3$ from a retailer like SCG, so go figure what they paid for it.) AND sell all of the cards included, rather than just the expensive ones.

Also, I guess a lot of them suffer from wanting to sell fast and thus try undercutting each other. For instance, I am sure a lot of people who invested in snapcasters for reselling purposes must have had heart attacks over how many anti-snap cards RtR had, or are worried that miracles will see a huge price drop once they rotate out of standard. Although I have never done it, so I dont know for sure, just guesswork really.
I hate dogs.
My cards of note from each box were 3.5 duals, an angel and a wurm. You got a godbox.
I don't think we can guesstimate better without actually asking a shop owner and/or WotC



One of my friends at college got himself registered as a Tournament Organizer since he runs events on campus, and he can order boxes for $70 each, if I remember correctly. Not a shop owner, but I figured the number is still useful.

Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
The part of the calculation that needs to be added is labor cost. If you are not into Magic and just selling cards purely for profit, say you spend 8 hours to "process" a booster box: open, itemize, package into play sets, post on ebay, take the items to mail, followup with buyers....all that. If you give yourself a miserly wage of $5 an hour, that's $40 on top of whatever you pay for the box.

If you sell on ebay you are paying fees every step: to list, for them to use paypal, to relist. Let's say for a booster box you got 50 cards you could sell, some in playsets, for, say, 20 lots. That's probably $10 in fees. You are already down $50 and you haven't even bought the said booster box.

The profit can only come in when you do volume: crack up 4 or 5 cases (24 to 30 boosters) with a couple of people and divide up tasks: packager, mailer, customer service.

In my unknowing and humble opinion until you reach that scale you are either accepting to work for free or are just having a little fun at breaking even, and worse yet if you are cracking open M12 or M13, in which case you are having fun at losing money and at the end of the day you don't have any cards, which means you are paying someone to own YOUR cards-which you can do for free if you don't sell anything. Some math!

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