Evaluation Junction: What's your malfunction?

40 posts / 0 new
Last post

A terrible thread that does NOT have a title worthy of a Mark Rosewater article got me thinking about evaluating cards. I've seen a lot of cards that really feel like they should be good, even having similar counterparts that have demonstrated that they are very strong, and yet in practice they just don't hold up.


An example that immediately comes to mind is Wee Dragonauts. I've been playing a lot of Duals of the Planeswalkers over the last year or so - it's actually what got me back into playing competitive Magic again - and I used to absolutely love Kiln Fiend. A fiend will totally destroy an opponent if they don't kill it quickly and it happened to synergize very well with Chandra's Phoenix. A few other decks later had the Wees and I thought they were going to be insane. Yeah, they cost a little more, but they are tougher and they fly. That's still good, right? But it turns out that I really don't like them. They feel very slow and unwieldy and I feel like, strangely enough, the pump ability is less useful in this form. I have a hard time telling if the Wees are actually not as good as Fiends or if the decks using Wees happen to be poorly designed. Does one mana really make all of the difference on an otherwise ridiculous ability?


I seem to recall Wees being played in high level magic somewhere, is that the case? Or am I crazy? Either way, it's hard for me to believe in it in any format.


I'm sure you all have other examples of these feels.

It's not only one less mana to cast, it's also losing 33% efficiency on the ability, which is something.

Most of these cards have a flaw that's not obvious at first glance, but becomes more so later on. For example, one could very well say that Pithing Needle is a powerhouse against 'walkers, and it feels very much so. However, he'll see when he plays it that naming a 'walker you don't even know if he has in hand, spending a card to maybe deal with a card and a dead card in multiple isn't as good as it seemed. It's just because that player fell for it.

On thing people often underestimate is a win-more card. Take Overrun. Why does no one play it? It makes all your dudes so much bigger! However, if you don't have 3+ creatures, it's useless, and if you do, you're supposed to have already won. This one is more obvious to show the point, but there are very subtle ones.

These are evaluating skills you gain with experience.

Rules Advisor

Quotes
76783093 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
58331438 wrote:
56945988 wrote:
Rancor dies to in-response removal.
Yeah... Until next game, where it'll be right back. Seriously, there's no way to deal with Rancor in any format. It should be banned, except Gleemax is a lobbyist for the Rancor party, so that'll never happen.
You can't ban rancor, it just returns to your deck.
58331438 wrote:
57461258 wrote:
You might want to actually talk to the Flavor & Storyline Board people... since, you know, our whole reason for playing Magic is the flavor. I'm willing to bet you'll get a lot more interest there than in General.
Indeed, both posters down there would be thrilled.
57817638 wrote:
I think I wasn't direct enough in my last post. I'll try to fix it now. Ahem... NO ONE CARES there you have it.
57471038 wrote:
When talks about banning Jace first started, I was thinking that I would see him banned come June 20th. But as I think more about it, I don't really think that Jace is the problem anymore. Sure his power level leaves very little to the imagination (opening Jace is like opening a refrigerator box with a naked girl on the inside), and sure his price does have a strong impact on what players choose to play (playing Jace is like being intimate with a woman and she doesn't charge you in the morning), but it is not the source of all the problems in Standard.
76973988 wrote:
How do people think saving room to print more abilities on cards is dumbing down the game?

Do you really think, say, Akroma would ever be printed if she said, "Akroma can block by creatures with this ability and cannot be blocked by creatures without this ability.  If a creature without this ability would deal combat damage by Akroma would be destroyed, prevent all combat damage that creature would deal to Akroma this combat.  Attacking does not cause Akroma to tap.  If Akroma is blocked and deals lethal damage, it deals the remainder of its damage to the defending player.  Akroma may attack and use abilities that require tapping in the casting cost the turn it enters the battlefield.  Akroma cannot be damaged, enchanted, equipped, blocked or targeted by black or red sources" rather than her "dumbed down" wording she has?  No freaking way.  Keywording and shorthand allows them to make complicated cards easy to play with, allowing them to be printed in the first place.
57817638 wrote:
The creation of praetors was worth it just because now amoeboid changeling is a praetor.
57140668 wrote:
1. cast frankie peanuts2. ask opponent "will you concede the game this turn"? if they say yes, you win; if they say no, play a staying power
3. subsequently ask "will you attack this turn"? and "will you cast a spell this turn"? (using a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for the second question if necessary) to ensure they can't disrupt the combo
4. donate them a platinum angel
5. play a mox lotus and braingeyser them for every card in their library. play an opalescence and donate them a glorious anthem and a blacker lotus, then play enchanted evening. play and activate a mindslaver and then donate them a fastbond and the mox lotus (returning one of the donates to your hand with eternal witness or whatever)
6. during their turn, play every permanent in their hand (playing lands with fastbond) then (as yourself) cast mirrorweave on the blacker lotus, so every permanent becomes a copy of it. proceed to tear up every card they control, and hopefully do it before they notice that they aren't bound by staying power's ability anymore and can concede
82423538 wrote:
57471038 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
One part of the statement being true=/=the whole statement true.
Whatever. I'm still here about ten minutes away. Whenever you want to get destroyed in Magic, I'm available.
I would like to get destroyed in Magic, actually. Do you know anybody good enough?
57617478 wrote:
Please format your statements in a way that doesn't look like a baboon hit its face on your keyboard.
57140668 wrote:
why did Garruk Relentless lose a loyalty counter
Show
to get to the other side
89522235 wrote:
You're such an obvious troll that you have hexproof and : Regenerate.
56957928 wrote:
56776038 wrote:
Dark Ritual being overpowered is determined more by what is done with it than the card itself.
True, but the fact that it enables so many ridiculous things is pretty telling. It's like, sure I can use a shotgun as a bludgeoning instrument, but that doesn't make it not a shotgun.
79035425 wrote:
Shortly before Serra died, she transferred her spark into an angel whose full name was Asha Avacyn Bolas. Her dragon father groomed her for her positions in Alara and Innistrad, and she's also been getting help from her uncle Ugin in the form of Urza, who was resurrected as Marit Lage to be the avatar as which she projects herself into material realms. Grieslbrand is a split personality who sometimes wanders the planes disguised as a human woman named Liliana Vess.
97610188 wrote:
Yeah that (Content Removed) really annoys me. Moderated by MY_self right about naahowwww!
93446159 wrote:
Dilleux_Lepaire just won the thread.
57461258 wrote:
And, as usual, Dilleux wins the entire thread. Nice work, sir, nice work.
99113151 wrote:
They need to make 9 layers of zones where cards go when they "die". Much like Hell.
56778328 wrote:
Wow, holy doggy poop, kids, obvious statement is obvious.
56776038 wrote:
122053101 wrote:
i don't think your geting it WotC is trying to kill the comption to make it so that there shity app is the only one left.
I haven't tried the app. How is its use of English grammar? Cheers!
57471038 wrote:
Everyone's life would be easier if players would, instead of coming to the 'net for help with a deck, just netdeck and be done with it. And I'm not talking about some Top 8 lists, for the Casualists, too, can benefit from netdecking. I've netdecked plenty of decks from the Casual Play forums from users such as Mown, Raedien, Floopfoot, and a few others. I snatched straight the heck out of my web browser. Yes, people, your original idea fell victim to a savage netdecker. You have been assimiliated. Suppose I wanted a Zombie deck. Why on earth would I spend time searching Gatherer for a decent list of Zombie cards when Raedien already did it for me? Taking time to be creative or waiting on people on the forums to tell you why your deck sucks or 'go to Casual forums' is a disasterous waste of time (to me).
56957928 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
If WotC started putting $100 bills in packs, the players would complain that they folded them wrong.
No, they just spam them with ban requests. That being said, Magic was ruined back in Alpha when they added all that rules and cards [Debutantes avert your eyes]. My friends and I still like playing it the "pure" way (Basically we go into the woods and hit eachother with wiffle bats while shouting made up obscenities. You know, the way Garfield wanted it to be played).
56957928 wrote:
Don't worry about it. I've come up with a list of changes to fix EDH. -First off, there's no commander. -The minimum deck size is 60 cards, and each deck can have up to four of each card, save basic lands and relentless rats. Also decks have no color identity. -Starting life total is 20. And voila, now things are balanced.
89522235 wrote:
Here's a clever play you can try yourself: -Convince friend to run relentless rats.dec in legacy tournament -Get a deck with lots of mill, yixlid jailer, and humility -Drop humility and jailer, wait for him to dump his hand, mill him out -All his rats now have no abilities. Call a judge because he's playing an illegal deck with more than 4 of a single card. -Get him/her banned from competitive magic play
142055101 wrote:
But how to mark them without making the individual sleeve different! You could buy a skunk and slam it's butt on you deck (pardon the french) Then after the game just sniff at your opponent's pile of cards and you will know if any of your cards are there!!!
141434757 wrote:
In Soviet Russia, Sorin opens You
71235715 wrote:
L, is for the leather gloves you weaaaar. O, is for the organs that guy could spaaaare. V, is very very, extraordinay. E, is for every vagrant i butchered in a wine cellar befooooore.
57052258 wrote:
The outer layer of the Magic: the Gathering box, the carton, or crust, is fairly thin and light, and contains largely aluminosilcates. Within that lies the middle layer, consisting of the familiar booster pack. Although solid, the booster packs' high temperatures allow them to acutally move around within the booster box. This flow, sometimes called convection, is cited by frustrated box mappers as one of WOTC's most genious uses of thermodynamics since the Ravnica block. No one knows what lies at the core of the booster box, but scientists theorize that it must be especially dense in order to make up for the large amount of fluff distributed amongst the booster packs.
58232598 wrote:
88993869 wrote:
Torpor Orb is absolutely godawful against Vexing Devil.
whoever is playing vexing devil is probably losing anyways
56957928 wrote:
I imagine [Ajani 3's] second ability involves him hurling the creature at your opponent Brion Stoutarm style, then the guy is just like "Okay, that may have worked, but don't- GOD DAMN IT!" as he does it again because cats don't give a **** :33.
56957928 wrote:
"Do or do not, there is no try." - Albus Dumbledore, The Lord of the Rings.
89522235 wrote:
68978039 wrote:
Its like that one time Elves broke out in a field of Jund. Elves became a resurgent hit, then died off again once Jund adapted to the rest of the field of G/W that it required mass removal that inherently pooped on Elves too. Submit to the menace. Delver can, and will blot out the sun.
Then we shall play in the shade.
89522235 wrote:
I'm sorry, this forum isn't for getting bad advice on mediocre decks, that's standard deck help. This forum is for starting ****storms.
97820278 wrote:
139359831 wrote:
Your advice would only lead me to make generic, boring, and unworthy content. It's of no use to me.
I just got this image of you as an architect, having finished a building suspended by only a small pole in its southwest corner, saying it's original. Then the building collapses.
56957928 wrote:
I for one love the flavor of legendary lands. "I remember my days as a youth at Tolarian Academy." "Wow, small multiverse, I actually went there too." "WAIT, DON'T- Well ****, there's $200,000 in student loans well spent."
56957928 wrote:
And flavor goes out the window when you cast a second copy of a planeswalker right after the first one dies, so... "Hey Nissa, I need a favor." "You just asked me for a 'favor' like thirty seconds ago, and it turned out to be having Sarkhan Transmogrify my only follower into a dragon like 5 times -which dickery aside also violates some laws of causality - and then you let me get beaten over the head by that hedron crab." "...I'll give you " "...Well all right then."
57150868 wrote:
GM, I don't think Dill is better than you. I KNOW it. Even if he wakes up every morning, clubs a baby seal, steals all the TV remotes from within a block's radius of his house and then robs hungry orphans of their food he'd be better than you, for the simple reason that he learns from his mistakes.
143211137 wrote:
57033358 wrote:
Tamiyo vs. Gideon
What would they have to fight about? Like, all I can think of now is Gideon going "Hey, long-ears! I'm gathering a group of 'Walkers together to fight some tentacle monsters.....you want in?" and Tamiyo going "Ew! Hentai no bakka Gideon-desu desu!" and flying away.
76783093 wrote:
I open 4 packs just to be on the safe side. Not only do I get more cards than everyone else, but I also get to spend the rest of the night off. Win Win.
191752181 wrote:
MaRo has a thing for people opening boosters with bad cards. But since he can only get so many bad cards printed in each set, he has found a devious way of getting more bad cards into circulation: He makes entire print sheets with just bad rares, then puts them onto the assembly line. He proceeds to wring his hands and twirl his evil mustache that he grew for twirling purposes as a lightning bolt strikes in the background. Afterwards, he goes to make sure that the good cards are only opened by everyone's friends, and that we all only get to open bad cards. He does this by memorising each booster, than switching them around accordingly. Whenever someone complains about a card, he immediately jumps out from behind a chair to yell "WELL, IT'S NOT FOR YOU!" before merging back into the shadows in order to devise new ways in which he can screw over players, then claim that he has valid reasons for doing so.
97820278 wrote:
192729031 wrote:
You open a booster pack, and staring back at you from the rare slot is a Lotleth Troll? At least I can stick him in my EDH deck and still have four for my standard constructed.
Because lol troll
56874518 wrote:
It helped that I more or less skipped most of GM_Champion's longer diatribes. I only have so many brain cells I'm willing to sacrifice each day.
192931349 wrote:
Mark Rosewater is sitting in a seemingly innocuous cable TV van, outside of Bankaimastery's house. Sitting nearby are two hardened criminal hackers, fresh out of prison, and filled with resentment at their lack of physical fitness. "Have you managed to hack his brainwaves yet? The set deadline's coming up fast." "We're almost through. It should be coming up on the screen any second." The hacker presses a button, and Kevin's thoughts flash onto the screen. Mark and the hackers stare in amazement at the sheer beauty, the elegance, and the raw truth of what they see. It's like the ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Brilliant light shines across the screen, the truth of existence is made clear to them, and they despair at their own foolishness, their own ignorance, their own inadequacy. And then they steal his ideas. As they return back to R&D, Mark sneers at a haggard old man chained to a cast-iron sphere. The man looks up from his laborious task of breaking rocks in the dungeon of Wizards of the Coast headquarters, and asks a question: "Kevin, my greatest student. He - he's all right, isn't he? You didn't hurt him?" Mark deals him a weighty blow with his boot. "Know your place, Richard. Get back to work."
57023768 wrote:
Now show me on the Garruk doll where Zac Hill ruined your enjoyment of Magic...
63711769 wrote:
I'm only opposed to it because it bears so little relation to how people actually play the game. The example of Miracles is actually a much better one then the Clone example I was trying to use. From the game's perspective, the card can move instantly from face down in the library to revealed in the hand and that's fine for the rules. But in real life, we can't actually do that, so the card spends a good bit of time in locations that are neither where that player's library is nor where that player's hand is. And that's fine for real life. What I don't want is the disconnect to be explicitly codified. Along the lines of
183664.697 A game of Magic as laid out by these rules exists only as a pure Platonic ideal, utterly unrealizable by fallible mortals limited by the confines of physicality and the ravages of evil and sin. 183664.698 The cake is a lie, too.
I know it's true, but I don't want the rules to actually straight-up tell me that.
147137503 wrote:
77120821 wrote:
Pfft this cant be serious can it? If it is please delete your account OP. Its not even close to ban worthy, considering what JTMS and stoneforge had to accomplish to get banned i see the WotC selling magic to aquire Pokemon before that ever happens.
I'm trying to imagine sorin markov as a gym leader in one of those pokemon games which you have to beat him to get his badge... somehow I imagine that he would stab you in the chest with his sword before giving you the badge, even if you beat his pokemon....
196239043 wrote:
Personally, I'd be fine with tea time but then I'm not gonna waste the mana summoning Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. He always takes all the sugar, drinks the whole pot of Earl Grey and doesn't even say thank you. SO. RUDE.

 

JustTerrorIt wrote:

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

All I want to do is sit down and play magic, but when I walked in yesterday, (since I didn't talk to anyone) nobody talked to me and I silently bought what I wanted and walked out.


If you don't talk to anyone, that increases the odds that no one will talk to you.

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

So how do I just... introduce myself? "Hi, my name is Adam, wanna play magic with me?" Do I go to the counter and talk to the cashier?


Yeah. Talk to the cashier. Tell him/her that you want a Black Lotus, and if they don't have one tell them that the store isn't on par with what you expected.

 

Reach into your back left pocket. Pull out a deck list that you copied directly from some ChannelFireball top 8 Standard discussion, and ask for all the cards, as is, on that list. Then, ask for some random, probably terrible cards from whatever set is Standard legal. Say it's tech for the upcoming changes in the metagame.

 

Pull out a deck, and tell some random dude you wanna test (you have to use the term "test" for this to work) for Standard. Make sure that deck contains Kitchen Finks and Alluring Siren. Maybe throw in Nyxathid for good measure.

 

Finally, before you leave, spill (make it look like an accident) one hundred singleton, random cards onto the floor. Pick them up, put them in a pile, and say "EEE-DEE-AYCH".

 

I know this sounds dumb at first, but it will work. With the method outlined above, you will draw the attention of players that play older formats by asking for cards that no one on Earth can reasonably afford. You will get the attention of the wanna-be pro, Stomp-n00bz players by pulling out a well known decklist and declare that you have "tech" to make it better. You will get the attention of all the kind, helpful players by seemingly not knowing the most common format by having non-Standard legal cards in a deck that you claim is Standard legal. Finally, you catch all the rest of the Magic players by saying "EEE-DEE-AYCH" (EDH (or Commander)).

And there you have it. You will be talking to more people than you would have wanted to talk to in no time.

 

Smoke_Stack wrote:

EDH is the best format anyway


See, it's starting already.

 

Break the Card
What is Break the Card?
Break the Card is a regular thread in the Cards and Combo Forum. Quite simply, the participants are given a Johnnystatic card (e.g. Xenograft) and are asked to build a deck around it. The winner and honorable mentions are sigged below. Get brewing!
Week 1 : Xenograft
This week's Break the Card was based around Xenograft. Thread : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27681049/Break_the_card_:_Xenograft?pg=1 Winner : Axterix with his Vampdrazi deck. Finalist : Vektor480 with his Ally/Golem/Plant deck. Honorable mentions : Zammm for the Turntimber Ranger combo and TinGorilla for suggesting Sarkhan the Mad.
Week 2 : Mindlock Orb
Here's the link to the Mindlock Orb contest : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27697565/Break_the_Card_:_Mindlock_Orb?sdb=1&pg=last#497536269 Winner : Axterix with his Maralen of the Mornsong deck. Honorable mentions : Void_Elemental.
Week 3 : Bludgeon Brawl
Here's the link to Break the Card : Bludgeon Brawl : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27715169/Break_the_Card_:_Bludgeon_Brawl?sdb=1&pg=last#498208797 Winner : Vektor and his Grab the World deck. Finalist : Crandor with his Awesome Aliteration deck. Honorable mentions : RP Jesus with his Wat deck and Zix200 with his Signet Renewal deck.
Week 4 : Followed Footsteps
This week was Followed Footsteps : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27748677/Break_the_Card_:_Followed_Footsteps?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Exponential Growth deck. Honorable mentions : Zix with his Carbon Copies deck and Escef with his Fungus of Speed and Time deck.
Week 5 : Delaying Shield
This week's card was Delaying Shield : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27790101/Break_the_Card_:_Delaying_Shield Winner : Tevish_Szat. Finalist : Vampire_Bat. Honorable Mention : Zix200.
Week 6 : Painter's Servant
This week's card was Painter's Servant : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27940861/Break_the_Card_:_Painters_Servant?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Paint it Black deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his Tiger, Tiger Painted Bright deck.
Week 7 : Venser, the Sojourner
This week's card was Venser, the Sojourner : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27977489/Break_the_Card_:_Venser,_the_Sojourner Winner : Izzett with her "Venser, Trickster Trader" deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his "Tactical Sojourner Action" deck.
Week 8 : Personal Sanctuary
This week's card was Personal Sanctuary : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28005461/Break_the_card_:_Personal_Sanctuary Winner : MrQuizzles. Honorable mention : Vampire_Bat and UbberSheep
Week 9 : Sundial of the Infinite
This week's card was Sundial of the Infinite : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28038277/Break_the_card_:_Sundial_of_the_Infinite Finalist : Izzett with her "Afterlife Trespassers" deck. Winner : Xeromus with his "Fortune 500" deck.
Week 10 : Jace's Archivist
This week's card was Jace's Archivist : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28063377/Break_the_Card_:_Jaces_Archivist. Finalists : Jentaru with his "Consecration of the Draw" deck and HereticSmitty with his "ADHD: The deck" deck. Winner : JaxsonBateman with his "The Archives Are Endless!" deck.
Week 11 : Search the City
This week's card was Search the City : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29518555/Break_the_Card_:_Search_the_City Finalist : Mown with "A Thousand Footsteps". Winner : Desolation_masticore with "Burn the City".
Week 12 : Fiend Hunter
This week's card was Fiend Hunter : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29530975/Break_the_Card_:_Fiend_Hunter Winner : Yuyu63 with "Carnival Hunting". Honorable mention : Dknowle's "Champion the Fiend".
Week 13 : Clock of Omens
This week's card was Clock of Omens : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29541549/Break_the_Card_:_Clock_of_Omens?pg=1 Winner : Dknowle's "The Myrs Go Marching".
Week 14 : Light of Sanction
This week's card was Light of Sanction : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29607219/Break_the_Card_:_Light_of_Sanction?pg=1 Winner : Zauzich's "Divine Plague".
Week 15 : Assemble the Legion
This week's card was Assemble the Legion : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29662307/Break_the_Card_:_Assemble_the_Legion Winner : JBTM's "Some Assembly Required".
Week 16 : High Tide
This week's cards were High Tide and/or Bubbling Muck : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29760427/Break_the_Card_:_High_Tide Winner : Mown's "Puppet Strings".
Week 17 : Illusionist's Bracers
This week's card was Illusionist's Bracers : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29776943/Break_the_Card_:_Illusionistss_Bracers Winner : Enigma256's "Tezzeret's Bracers"
Week 18 : Savor the Moment
This week's card was Savor the Moment : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29787235/Break_the_Card_:_Savor_the_Moment Winner : POSValkir's "A Savory Filibuster!"
Week 19 : Grinning Ignus
This week's card was Grinning Ignus : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29795547/Break_the_Card_:_Grinning_Ignus Winner : dknowle's "Luren' and Laughin'".
Week 20 : Transcendence
This week's card was Transcendence : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29806481/Break_the_Card_:_Transcendence Winners : Mown's "Transcending Timing Restrictions" and Dknowle's "Blinded by Greed", tied for the win.
Week 21 : Mortus Strider
This week's card was Mortus Strider : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29818471/Break_the_Card_:_Mortus_Strider Winner : SimonGlume's "Mortus Head".
Week 22 : High Priest of Penance
This week's card was High Priest of Penance : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29917231/Break_the_Card_High_Priest_of_Penance Winners : JBTM's "Two Clerics and a Goblin walk into a (Bom)bar(dment)..." and POSValkir1's "Choke Their Rivers with Our Dead!".
Week 23 : False Cure
This week's card was False Cure :http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29964239/Break_the_Card_:_False_Cure Winner : Dknowle's "When Hippos Fly".

Week 24 : Akroan Horse

This week's card was Akroan Horse : http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4024821.

Winner : Dknowle's "Indian Giver".

Week 25 : Leylines

This week saw multiple cards being in the contest : all of the Leylines! http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4067621

Winner : POSValkir1's "Laying the Battle Lines".

I'd argue that Overrun is pretty good... It's about as good as game enders get in Green, really. Even with two creatures it can clean up. But it's expensive and Green doesn't have a lot of other stuff to get creatures out of the way, so it suffers a bit... It doesn't see a lot of really high level play but I'd still say very payable.

The experience for this stuff doesn't really come from playing for a long time, sometimes you really have to play with the card to make the decision. But that's part of where my first impressions of Wee Dragonauts came from - the 2 toughness on Kiln Fiend really mattered in a lot of match-ups, so I figured toughness isn't always such a big deal but maybe that will make it at least AS good in some ways and balance it out a bit. But if I draw it I find myself not really even wanting to play it most of the time. I find myself thinking if it just cost 2 but gained flying along with the +2/+0 rather than having flying full time it would be so good. Maybe even that is just more of me overestimating a card without playing it, though.

I knew Guttersnipe would be better than Burning Vengeance in my deck I'm running at FNMs, but I thought the inability to hit creatures would hurt. It turned out being able to hit coming and going made the deck significantly better.

As for the Wee Dragonauts/Kiln Fiend thing: I tried with Blistercoil Weird, I really did. It just never worked out. 
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
I'd argue that Overrun is pretty good... It's about as good as game enders get in Green, really. Even with two creatures it can clean up. But it's expensive and Green doesn't have a lot of other stuff to get creatures out of the way, so it suffers a bit... It doesn't see a lot of really high level play but I'd still say very payable.

The experience for this stuff doesn't really come from playing for a long time, sometimes you really have to play with the card to make the decision. But that's part of where my first impressions of Wee Dragonauts came from - the 2 toughness on Kiln Fiend really mattered in a lot of match-ups, so I figured toughness isn't always such a big deal but maybe that will make it at least AS good in some ways and balance it out a bit. But if I draw it I find myself not really even wanting to play it most of the time. I find myself thinking if it just cost 2 but gained flying along with the +2/+0 rather than having flying full time it would be so good. Maybe even that is just more of me overestimating a card without playing it, though.




If you have five creatures on board and haven't won yet, you really need a better deck. Or Coat of Arms.

Rules Advisor

Quotes
76783093 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
58331438 wrote:
56945988 wrote:
Rancor dies to in-response removal.
Yeah... Until next game, where it'll be right back. Seriously, there's no way to deal with Rancor in any format. It should be banned, except Gleemax is a lobbyist for the Rancor party, so that'll never happen.
You can't ban rancor, it just returns to your deck.
58331438 wrote:
57461258 wrote:
You might want to actually talk to the Flavor & Storyline Board people... since, you know, our whole reason for playing Magic is the flavor. I'm willing to bet you'll get a lot more interest there than in General.
Indeed, both posters down there would be thrilled.
57817638 wrote:
I think I wasn't direct enough in my last post. I'll try to fix it now. Ahem... NO ONE CARES there you have it.
57471038 wrote:
When talks about banning Jace first started, I was thinking that I would see him banned come June 20th. But as I think more about it, I don't really think that Jace is the problem anymore. Sure his power level leaves very little to the imagination (opening Jace is like opening a refrigerator box with a naked girl on the inside), and sure his price does have a strong impact on what players choose to play (playing Jace is like being intimate with a woman and she doesn't charge you in the morning), but it is not the source of all the problems in Standard.
76973988 wrote:
How do people think saving room to print more abilities on cards is dumbing down the game?

Do you really think, say, Akroma would ever be printed if she said, "Akroma can block by creatures with this ability and cannot be blocked by creatures without this ability.  If a creature without this ability would deal combat damage by Akroma would be destroyed, prevent all combat damage that creature would deal to Akroma this combat.  Attacking does not cause Akroma to tap.  If Akroma is blocked and deals lethal damage, it deals the remainder of its damage to the defending player.  Akroma may attack and use abilities that require tapping in the casting cost the turn it enters the battlefield.  Akroma cannot be damaged, enchanted, equipped, blocked or targeted by black or red sources" rather than her "dumbed down" wording she has?  No freaking way.  Keywording and shorthand allows them to make complicated cards easy to play with, allowing them to be printed in the first place.
57817638 wrote:
The creation of praetors was worth it just because now amoeboid changeling is a praetor.
57140668 wrote:
1. cast frankie peanuts2. ask opponent "will you concede the game this turn"? if they say yes, you win; if they say no, play a staying power
3. subsequently ask "will you attack this turn"? and "will you cast a spell this turn"? (using a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for the second question if necessary) to ensure they can't disrupt the combo
4. donate them a platinum angel
5. play a mox lotus and braingeyser them for every card in their library. play an opalescence and donate them a glorious anthem and a blacker lotus, then play enchanted evening. play and activate a mindslaver and then donate them a fastbond and the mox lotus (returning one of the donates to your hand with eternal witness or whatever)
6. during their turn, play every permanent in their hand (playing lands with fastbond) then (as yourself) cast mirrorweave on the blacker lotus, so every permanent becomes a copy of it. proceed to tear up every card they control, and hopefully do it before they notice that they aren't bound by staying power's ability anymore and can concede
82423538 wrote:
57471038 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
One part of the statement being true=/=the whole statement true.
Whatever. I'm still here about ten minutes away. Whenever you want to get destroyed in Magic, I'm available.
I would like to get destroyed in Magic, actually. Do you know anybody good enough?
57617478 wrote:
Please format your statements in a way that doesn't look like a baboon hit its face on your keyboard.
57140668 wrote:
why did Garruk Relentless lose a loyalty counter
Show
to get to the other side
89522235 wrote:
You're such an obvious troll that you have hexproof and : Regenerate.
56957928 wrote:
56776038 wrote:
Dark Ritual being overpowered is determined more by what is done with it than the card itself.
True, but the fact that it enables so many ridiculous things is pretty telling. It's like, sure I can use a shotgun as a bludgeoning instrument, but that doesn't make it not a shotgun.
79035425 wrote:
Shortly before Serra died, she transferred her spark into an angel whose full name was Asha Avacyn Bolas. Her dragon father groomed her for her positions in Alara and Innistrad, and she's also been getting help from her uncle Ugin in the form of Urza, who was resurrected as Marit Lage to be the avatar as which she projects herself into material realms. Grieslbrand is a split personality who sometimes wanders the planes disguised as a human woman named Liliana Vess.
97610188 wrote:
Yeah that (Content Removed) really annoys me. Moderated by MY_self right about naahowwww!
93446159 wrote:
Dilleux_Lepaire just won the thread.
57461258 wrote:
And, as usual, Dilleux wins the entire thread. Nice work, sir, nice work.
99113151 wrote:
They need to make 9 layers of zones where cards go when they "die". Much like Hell.
56778328 wrote:
Wow, holy doggy poop, kids, obvious statement is obvious.
56776038 wrote:
122053101 wrote:
i don't think your geting it WotC is trying to kill the comption to make it so that there shity app is the only one left.
I haven't tried the app. How is its use of English grammar? Cheers!
57471038 wrote:
Everyone's life would be easier if players would, instead of coming to the 'net for help with a deck, just netdeck and be done with it. And I'm not talking about some Top 8 lists, for the Casualists, too, can benefit from netdecking. I've netdecked plenty of decks from the Casual Play forums from users such as Mown, Raedien, Floopfoot, and a few others. I snatched straight the heck out of my web browser. Yes, people, your original idea fell victim to a savage netdecker. You have been assimiliated. Suppose I wanted a Zombie deck. Why on earth would I spend time searching Gatherer for a decent list of Zombie cards when Raedien already did it for me? Taking time to be creative or waiting on people on the forums to tell you why your deck sucks or 'go to Casual forums' is a disasterous waste of time (to me).
56957928 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
If WotC started putting $100 bills in packs, the players would complain that they folded them wrong.
No, they just spam them with ban requests. That being said, Magic was ruined back in Alpha when they added all that rules and cards [Debutantes avert your eyes]. My friends and I still like playing it the "pure" way (Basically we go into the woods and hit eachother with wiffle bats while shouting made up obscenities. You know, the way Garfield wanted it to be played).
56957928 wrote:
Don't worry about it. I've come up with a list of changes to fix EDH. -First off, there's no commander. -The minimum deck size is 60 cards, and each deck can have up to four of each card, save basic lands and relentless rats. Also decks have no color identity. -Starting life total is 20. And voila, now things are balanced.
89522235 wrote:
Here's a clever play you can try yourself: -Convince friend to run relentless rats.dec in legacy tournament -Get a deck with lots of mill, yixlid jailer, and humility -Drop humility and jailer, wait for him to dump his hand, mill him out -All his rats now have no abilities. Call a judge because he's playing an illegal deck with more than 4 of a single card. -Get him/her banned from competitive magic play
142055101 wrote:
But how to mark them without making the individual sleeve different! You could buy a skunk and slam it's butt on you deck (pardon the french) Then after the game just sniff at your opponent's pile of cards and you will know if any of your cards are there!!!
141434757 wrote:
In Soviet Russia, Sorin opens You
71235715 wrote:
L, is for the leather gloves you weaaaar. O, is for the organs that guy could spaaaare. V, is very very, extraordinay. E, is for every vagrant i butchered in a wine cellar befooooore.
57052258 wrote:
The outer layer of the Magic: the Gathering box, the carton, or crust, is fairly thin and light, and contains largely aluminosilcates. Within that lies the middle layer, consisting of the familiar booster pack. Although solid, the booster packs' high temperatures allow them to acutally move around within the booster box. This flow, sometimes called convection, is cited by frustrated box mappers as one of WOTC's most genious uses of thermodynamics since the Ravnica block. No one knows what lies at the core of the booster box, but scientists theorize that it must be especially dense in order to make up for the large amount of fluff distributed amongst the booster packs.
58232598 wrote:
88993869 wrote:
Torpor Orb is absolutely godawful against Vexing Devil.
whoever is playing vexing devil is probably losing anyways
56957928 wrote:
I imagine [Ajani 3's] second ability involves him hurling the creature at your opponent Brion Stoutarm style, then the guy is just like "Okay, that may have worked, but don't- GOD DAMN IT!" as he does it again because cats don't give a **** :33.
56957928 wrote:
"Do or do not, there is no try." - Albus Dumbledore, The Lord of the Rings.
89522235 wrote:
68978039 wrote:
Its like that one time Elves broke out in a field of Jund. Elves became a resurgent hit, then died off again once Jund adapted to the rest of the field of G/W that it required mass removal that inherently pooped on Elves too. Submit to the menace. Delver can, and will blot out the sun.
Then we shall play in the shade.
89522235 wrote:
I'm sorry, this forum isn't for getting bad advice on mediocre decks, that's standard deck help. This forum is for starting ****storms.
97820278 wrote:
139359831 wrote:
Your advice would only lead me to make generic, boring, and unworthy content. It's of no use to me.
I just got this image of you as an architect, having finished a building suspended by only a small pole in its southwest corner, saying it's original. Then the building collapses.
56957928 wrote:
I for one love the flavor of legendary lands. "I remember my days as a youth at Tolarian Academy." "Wow, small multiverse, I actually went there too." "WAIT, DON'T- Well ****, there's $200,000 in student loans well spent."
56957928 wrote:
And flavor goes out the window when you cast a second copy of a planeswalker right after the first one dies, so... "Hey Nissa, I need a favor." "You just asked me for a 'favor' like thirty seconds ago, and it turned out to be having Sarkhan Transmogrify my only follower into a dragon like 5 times -which dickery aside also violates some laws of causality - and then you let me get beaten over the head by that hedron crab." "...I'll give you " "...Well all right then."
57150868 wrote:
GM, I don't think Dill is better than you. I KNOW it. Even if he wakes up every morning, clubs a baby seal, steals all the TV remotes from within a block's radius of his house and then robs hungry orphans of their food he'd be better than you, for the simple reason that he learns from his mistakes.
143211137 wrote:
57033358 wrote:
Tamiyo vs. Gideon
What would they have to fight about? Like, all I can think of now is Gideon going "Hey, long-ears! I'm gathering a group of 'Walkers together to fight some tentacle monsters.....you want in?" and Tamiyo going "Ew! Hentai no bakka Gideon-desu desu!" and flying away.
76783093 wrote:
I open 4 packs just to be on the safe side. Not only do I get more cards than everyone else, but I also get to spend the rest of the night off. Win Win.
191752181 wrote:
MaRo has a thing for people opening boosters with bad cards. But since he can only get so many bad cards printed in each set, he has found a devious way of getting more bad cards into circulation: He makes entire print sheets with just bad rares, then puts them onto the assembly line. He proceeds to wring his hands and twirl his evil mustache that he grew for twirling purposes as a lightning bolt strikes in the background. Afterwards, he goes to make sure that the good cards are only opened by everyone's friends, and that we all only get to open bad cards. He does this by memorising each booster, than switching them around accordingly. Whenever someone complains about a card, he immediately jumps out from behind a chair to yell "WELL, IT'S NOT FOR YOU!" before merging back into the shadows in order to devise new ways in which he can screw over players, then claim that he has valid reasons for doing so.
97820278 wrote:
192729031 wrote:
You open a booster pack, and staring back at you from the rare slot is a Lotleth Troll? At least I can stick him in my EDH deck and still have four for my standard constructed.
Because lol troll
56874518 wrote:
It helped that I more or less skipped most of GM_Champion's longer diatribes. I only have so many brain cells I'm willing to sacrifice each day.
192931349 wrote:
Mark Rosewater is sitting in a seemingly innocuous cable TV van, outside of Bankaimastery's house. Sitting nearby are two hardened criminal hackers, fresh out of prison, and filled with resentment at their lack of physical fitness. "Have you managed to hack his brainwaves yet? The set deadline's coming up fast." "We're almost through. It should be coming up on the screen any second." The hacker presses a button, and Kevin's thoughts flash onto the screen. Mark and the hackers stare in amazement at the sheer beauty, the elegance, and the raw truth of what they see. It's like the ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Brilliant light shines across the screen, the truth of existence is made clear to them, and they despair at their own foolishness, their own ignorance, their own inadequacy. And then they steal his ideas. As they return back to R&D, Mark sneers at a haggard old man chained to a cast-iron sphere. The man looks up from his laborious task of breaking rocks in the dungeon of Wizards of the Coast headquarters, and asks a question: "Kevin, my greatest student. He - he's all right, isn't he? You didn't hurt him?" Mark deals him a weighty blow with his boot. "Know your place, Richard. Get back to work."
57023768 wrote:
Now show me on the Garruk doll where Zac Hill ruined your enjoyment of Magic...
63711769 wrote:
I'm only opposed to it because it bears so little relation to how people actually play the game. The example of Miracles is actually a much better one then the Clone example I was trying to use. From the game's perspective, the card can move instantly from face down in the library to revealed in the hand and that's fine for the rules. But in real life, we can't actually do that, so the card spends a good bit of time in locations that are neither where that player's library is nor where that player's hand is. And that's fine for real life. What I don't want is the disconnect to be explicitly codified. Along the lines of
183664.697 A game of Magic as laid out by these rules exists only as a pure Platonic ideal, utterly unrealizable by fallible mortals limited by the confines of physicality and the ravages of evil and sin. 183664.698 The cake is a lie, too.
I know it's true, but I don't want the rules to actually straight-up tell me that.
147137503 wrote:
77120821 wrote:
Pfft this cant be serious can it? If it is please delete your account OP. Its not even close to ban worthy, considering what JTMS and stoneforge had to accomplish to get banned i see the WotC selling magic to aquire Pokemon before that ever happens.
I'm trying to imagine sorin markov as a gym leader in one of those pokemon games which you have to beat him to get his badge... somehow I imagine that he would stab you in the chest with his sword before giving you the badge, even if you beat his pokemon....
196239043 wrote:
Personally, I'd be fine with tea time but then I'm not gonna waste the mana summoning Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. He always takes all the sugar, drinks the whole pot of Earl Grey and doesn't even say thank you. SO. RUDE.

 

JustTerrorIt wrote:

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

All I want to do is sit down and play magic, but when I walked in yesterday, (since I didn't talk to anyone) nobody talked to me and I silently bought what I wanted and walked out.


If you don't talk to anyone, that increases the odds that no one will talk to you.

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

So how do I just... introduce myself? "Hi, my name is Adam, wanna play magic with me?" Do I go to the counter and talk to the cashier?


Yeah. Talk to the cashier. Tell him/her that you want a Black Lotus, and if they don't have one tell them that the store isn't on par with what you expected.

 

Reach into your back left pocket. Pull out a deck list that you copied directly from some ChannelFireball top 8 Standard discussion, and ask for all the cards, as is, on that list. Then, ask for some random, probably terrible cards from whatever set is Standard legal. Say it's tech for the upcoming changes in the metagame.

 

Pull out a deck, and tell some random dude you wanna test (you have to use the term "test" for this to work) for Standard. Make sure that deck contains Kitchen Finks and Alluring Siren. Maybe throw in Nyxathid for good measure.

 

Finally, before you leave, spill (make it look like an accident) one hundred singleton, random cards onto the floor. Pick them up, put them in a pile, and say "EEE-DEE-AYCH".

 

I know this sounds dumb at first, but it will work. With the method outlined above, you will draw the attention of players that play older formats by asking for cards that no one on Earth can reasonably afford. You will get the attention of the wanna-be pro, Stomp-n00bz players by pulling out a well known decklist and declare that you have "tech" to make it better. You will get the attention of all the kind, helpful players by seemingly not knowing the most common format by having non-Standard legal cards in a deck that you claim is Standard legal. Finally, you catch all the rest of the Magic players by saying "EEE-DEE-AYCH" (EDH (or Commander)).

And there you have it. You will be talking to more people than you would have wanted to talk to in no time.

 

Smoke_Stack wrote:

EDH is the best format anyway


See, it's starting already.

 

Break the Card
What is Break the Card?
Break the Card is a regular thread in the Cards and Combo Forum. Quite simply, the participants are given a Johnnystatic card (e.g. Xenograft) and are asked to build a deck around it. The winner and honorable mentions are sigged below. Get brewing!
Week 1 : Xenograft
This week's Break the Card was based around Xenograft. Thread : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27681049/Break_the_card_:_Xenograft?pg=1 Winner : Axterix with his Vampdrazi deck. Finalist : Vektor480 with his Ally/Golem/Plant deck. Honorable mentions : Zammm for the Turntimber Ranger combo and TinGorilla for suggesting Sarkhan the Mad.
Week 2 : Mindlock Orb
Here's the link to the Mindlock Orb contest : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27697565/Break_the_Card_:_Mindlock_Orb?sdb=1&pg=last#497536269 Winner : Axterix with his Maralen of the Mornsong deck. Honorable mentions : Void_Elemental.
Week 3 : Bludgeon Brawl
Here's the link to Break the Card : Bludgeon Brawl : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27715169/Break_the_Card_:_Bludgeon_Brawl?sdb=1&pg=last#498208797 Winner : Vektor and his Grab the World deck. Finalist : Crandor with his Awesome Aliteration deck. Honorable mentions : RP Jesus with his Wat deck and Zix200 with his Signet Renewal deck.
Week 4 : Followed Footsteps
This week was Followed Footsteps : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27748677/Break_the_Card_:_Followed_Footsteps?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Exponential Growth deck. Honorable mentions : Zix with his Carbon Copies deck and Escef with his Fungus of Speed and Time deck.
Week 5 : Delaying Shield
This week's card was Delaying Shield : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27790101/Break_the_Card_:_Delaying_Shield Winner : Tevish_Szat. Finalist : Vampire_Bat. Honorable Mention : Zix200.
Week 6 : Painter's Servant
This week's card was Painter's Servant : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27940861/Break_the_Card_:_Painters_Servant?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Paint it Black deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his Tiger, Tiger Painted Bright deck.
Week 7 : Venser, the Sojourner
This week's card was Venser, the Sojourner : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27977489/Break_the_Card_:_Venser,_the_Sojourner Winner : Izzett with her "Venser, Trickster Trader" deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his "Tactical Sojourner Action" deck.
Week 8 : Personal Sanctuary
This week's card was Personal Sanctuary : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28005461/Break_the_card_:_Personal_Sanctuary Winner : MrQuizzles. Honorable mention : Vampire_Bat and UbberSheep
Week 9 : Sundial of the Infinite
This week's card was Sundial of the Infinite : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28038277/Break_the_card_:_Sundial_of_the_Infinite Finalist : Izzett with her "Afterlife Trespassers" deck. Winner : Xeromus with his "Fortune 500" deck.
Week 10 : Jace's Archivist
This week's card was Jace's Archivist : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28063377/Break_the_Card_:_Jaces_Archivist. Finalists : Jentaru with his "Consecration of the Draw" deck and HereticSmitty with his "ADHD: The deck" deck. Winner : JaxsonBateman with his "The Archives Are Endless!" deck.
Week 11 : Search the City
This week's card was Search the City : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29518555/Break_the_Card_:_Search_the_City Finalist : Mown with "A Thousand Footsteps". Winner : Desolation_masticore with "Burn the City".
Week 12 : Fiend Hunter
This week's card was Fiend Hunter : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29530975/Break_the_Card_:_Fiend_Hunter Winner : Yuyu63 with "Carnival Hunting". Honorable mention : Dknowle's "Champion the Fiend".
Week 13 : Clock of Omens
This week's card was Clock of Omens : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29541549/Break_the_Card_:_Clock_of_Omens?pg=1 Winner : Dknowle's "The Myrs Go Marching".
Week 14 : Light of Sanction
This week's card was Light of Sanction : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29607219/Break_the_Card_:_Light_of_Sanction?pg=1 Winner : Zauzich's "Divine Plague".
Week 15 : Assemble the Legion
This week's card was Assemble the Legion : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29662307/Break_the_Card_:_Assemble_the_Legion Winner : JBTM's "Some Assembly Required".
Week 16 : High Tide
This week's cards were High Tide and/or Bubbling Muck : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29760427/Break_the_Card_:_High_Tide Winner : Mown's "Puppet Strings".
Week 17 : Illusionist's Bracers
This week's card was Illusionist's Bracers : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29776943/Break_the_Card_:_Illusionistss_Bracers Winner : Enigma256's "Tezzeret's Bracers"
Week 18 : Savor the Moment
This week's card was Savor the Moment : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29787235/Break_the_Card_:_Savor_the_Moment Winner : POSValkir's "A Savory Filibuster!"
Week 19 : Grinning Ignus
This week's card was Grinning Ignus : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29795547/Break_the_Card_:_Grinning_Ignus Winner : dknowle's "Luren' and Laughin'".
Week 20 : Transcendence
This week's card was Transcendence : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29806481/Break_the_Card_:_Transcendence Winners : Mown's "Transcending Timing Restrictions" and Dknowle's "Blinded by Greed", tied for the win.
Week 21 : Mortus Strider
This week's card was Mortus Strider : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29818471/Break_the_Card_:_Mortus_Strider Winner : SimonGlume's "Mortus Head".
Week 22 : High Priest of Penance
This week's card was High Priest of Penance : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29917231/Break_the_Card_High_Priest_of_Penance Winners : JBTM's "Two Clerics and a Goblin walk into a (Bom)bar(dment)..." and POSValkir1's "Choke Their Rivers with Our Dead!".
Week 23 : False Cure
This week's card was False Cure :http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29964239/Break_the_Card_:_False_Cure Winner : Dknowle's "When Hippos Fly".

Week 24 : Akroan Horse

This week's card was Akroan Horse : http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4024821.

Winner : Dknowle's "Indian Giver".

Week 25 : Leylines

This week saw multiple cards being in the contest : all of the Leylines! http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4067621

Winner : POSValkir1's "Laying the Battle Lines".

I'd argue that Overrun is pretty good... It's about as good as game enders get in Green, really. Even with two creatures it can clean up. But it's expensive and Green doesn't have a lot of other stuff to get creatures out of the way, so it suffers a bit... It doesn't see a lot of really high level play but I'd still say very payable.

The experience for this stuff doesn't really come from playing for a long time, sometimes you really have to play with the card to make the decision. But that's part of where my first impressions of Wee Dragonauts came from - the 2 toughness on Kiln Fiend really mattered in a lot of match-ups, so I figured toughness isn't always such a big deal but maybe that will make it at least AS good in some ways and balance it out a bit. But if I draw it I find myself not really even wanting to play it most of the time. I find myself thinking if it just cost 2 but gained flying along with the +2/+0 rather than having flying full time it would be so good. Maybe even that is just more of me overestimating a card without playing it, though.



Not everyone plays at the highest tier of competitive. Overrun is a good card outside of maximum effeciency competitive. And yes, it's absolutely fin that people play at that level.

If you have five creatures on board and haven't won yet, you really need a better deck. Or Coat of Arms.



I guess the classic example of this would be opponent choice cards like Browbeat. They seem so good, and actually do tend to work really well in casual against less experienced opponents, but someone more experienced will be able to more accurately pick the best option.
Coming Soon to the Magic: Expanded Multiverse: FRAGMENTS: A Shards of Alara Anthology
(Click through to view the cover and announcement page)Want to get your work in the Expanded Multiverse? Come join the project! Oh, and check out my blog, Storming the Ivory Tower: making sense of academia, media, and culture twice weekly.

I guess the classic example of this would be opponent choice cards like Browbeat. They seem so good, and actually do tend to work really well in casual against less experienced opponents, but someone more experienced will be able to more accurately pick the best option.

It's easy to overrate them, but the key to playing any card is to know the proper timing to play it. The red ones generally are best played in decks with lots of aggressively costed creatures and burn. There are lots of situations where you really can't afford to take the damage OR let them have the actual effect. Vexing Devil can be really good, for example, because it's super cheap and not uncommon to be able to put your opponent in a situation where they really can't afford either outcome. Playing two back to back is also pretty nuts - no combination of taking the damage or letting them come into play feels any good. The same goes for Browbeat, though - when the burn player's hand is wearing thin and your life is getting lower and lower you don't want them drawing cards because it's going to let them finish you off but you also don't want to take the huge hit of 5 damage because that will either kill you or put you in range to be killed with anything else they happen to topdeck (or already have in their hand.) Imagine you begin your turn with 4-6 mana available to you, your opponent is between 1-8 health and you have Browbeat and Lightning Bolt in your hand, doesn't matter what else you have. There's no choice your opponent could make that is correct. You either kill them then or regrip and kill them anyway this turn or next turn at the latest. That's not even accounting for board position.

If we're talking opponent choice cards in general rather than just punisher cards, it's kinda funny because Fact or Fiction is one of the best card drawing spells ever. I guess it all depends on what your opponent gets to choose and how effectively you can make choices to play around that.

If you have five creatures on board and haven't won yet, you really need a better deck. Or Coat of Arms.

Who said anything about 5 creatures? Even with 2 creatures, which is what I was saying, Overrun can put an opponent in a situation where they either lose the game or lose all of their creatures. It's not super streamlined but it's not unplayable and it's certainly the most efficient thing that does what it does.
I'd argue that Overrun is pretty good... It's about as good as game enders get in Green, really. Even with two creatures it can clean up. But it's expensive and Green doesn't have a lot of other stuff to get creatures out of the way, so it suffers a bit... It doesn't see a lot of really high level play but I'd still say very payable.

The experience for this stuff doesn't really come from playing for a long time, sometimes you really have to play with the card to make the decision. But that's part of where my first impressions of Wee Dragonauts came from - the 2 toughness on Kiln Fiend really mattered in a lot of match-ups, so I figured toughness isn't always such a big deal but maybe that will make it at least AS good in some ways and balance it out a bit. But if I draw it I find myself not really even wanting to play it most of the time. I find myself thinking if it just cost 2 but gained flying along with the +2/+0 rather than having flying full time it would be so good. Maybe even that is just more of me overestimating a card without playing it, though.




Overrun at least grants trample. Now, Predatory Rampage is pseudo-removal when I'd rather just do that "win the game" thing everyone keeps talking about.

Yeah, it's efficiency.

I weigh factors as follows:

Cost: 1.5
Synergy: 1.5
Efficiency: 1.25
General value (i.e., not a magic bullet): 1.25
Grokkability, rules issues: 1.25
Flavor: 1.25
Colorpie: 1.25 (This also means it can't do something a color can't normally do just to hose something. If the color doing this becomes a thing because of this, it's a double 0.)
Johnny factor: 0.75

Divide the score by 2 to get my final rating.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Divide the score by 2 to get my final rating.

Do you really expect people to punch a bunch of arbitrary numbers you spewed onto the forum into an equasion to find your arbitrary evaluation of a card in a vacuum?

A terrible thread that does NOT have a title worthy of a Mark Rosewater article got me thinking about evaluating cards. I've seen a lot of cards that really feel like they should be good, even having similar counterparts that have demonstrated that they are very strong, and yet in practice they just don't hold up.


An example that immediately comes to mind is Wee Dragonauts. I've been playing a lot of Duals of the Planeswalkers over the last year or so - it's actually what got me back into playing competitive Magic again - and I used to absolutely love Kiln Fiend. A fiend will totally destroy an opponent if they don't kill it quickly and it happened to synergize very well with Chandra's Phoenix. A few other decks later had the Wees and I thought they were going to be insane. Yeah, they cost a little more, but they are tougher and they fly. That's still good, right? But it turns out that I really don't like them. They feel very slow and unwieldy and I feel like, strangely enough, the pump ability is less useful in this form. I have a hard time telling if the Wees are actually not as good as Fiends or if the decks using Wees happen to be poorly designed. Does one mana really make all of the difference on an otherwise ridiculous ability?


I seem to recall Wees being played in high level magic somewhere, is that the case? Or am I crazy? Either way, it's hard for me to believe in it in any format.


I'm sure you all have other examples of these feels.




One mana is a world of difference. It helps that wee dragonauts has built in evasion but the fact that the pump  is slower (+2 per spell instead of +3) negates that. Besides if you're plan is to cast a bunch of instants and sorceries and win then it's too easy to find a way to make kiln fiend unblockable.

As far as wee dragonauts being part of a tournament caliber decklist, I know that there was a pretty fast deck which was competitive that combined wee dragonauts and psychotic fury but that was a long time before kiln fiend was around and I don't think it ever won any major tournament. 

An example of a feeling that I had which was that a card should be more powerful than it's performing is loxodon smiter. I knew it would be close because of the synergy that centaur healer has with restoration angel and reanimation (combined with the lack of quality counterspells) other powerful cards in standard but it seems strange to see more centaur healer than loxodon smiter in top standard decklists. The extra point of toughness is pretty significant in a format with searing spear, brimstone volley, flames of the firebrand and annihilating fire but I guess those spells aren't showing up in huge numbers either.

Don't be too smart to have fun
I always criminally undervalue shades in Limited and then promptly get trounced by them.

L1 Judge

It's simply because red will do direct damage and swing for a lot. While red blue will do less direct dmg, more control and swing for less. A turn 3 double lightning bolt + 7-2 swing to the face is much more frightening and effective than a turn 4 brain storm, lightning bolt and swing 5-3 flying to the face (13 vs 8 dmg). A player with 7 life left at the end of your 3rd third will hold back less, be more aggressive and might do more play mistakes than a player at turn 8 with 12 lifes. That's why klin fiend is better
I love trolls Dont hate me because I'm blunt and you cannot handle it

I thought I'd chime in about punisher cards one more time after the game I just had on Duels of the Planeswalkers 2013. I was running red black against aggro mill craziness, I got him down to 14 using Ashenmoor Gouger and other creatures that died tragically and barely managed to kill two of his Jaces Phantasms when he used Telemin Performance to rip a Demigod of Revenge out of my deck and smacked me with it. He needs one more swing with demigod to kill me. On my turn I opened with a Vexing Devil That I had been holding the entire game. Imagine having no knowledge of my hand and being in the opponent's position - what do you do? Do You let it into play and let me have 4 power I can swing back with if I kill your demigod? Do you take the damage and deny me board position that I could use to come back? What is really the safer play? 14 life does seem like a lot in this situation but I could have any number of hastey creatures, removal spells, burn, all kinds of stuff. These are the grey areas where those cards can be really powerful.


He ended up taking 4 damage and I didn't actually do anything for the rest of my turn, on his turn he swung with demigod and I killed it with Terminate before it hit me, then on my turn I played my own Demigod and brought the dead one back, swung with both and I won. Even if he didn't take the damage I would have killed his creature and won that turn attacking with two demigods and the devil. I couldn't have won that quickly without the Devil, and I realize that all of the other cards were just as important but that's exactly the point - these cards have a time and a place like any other cards and they are SO GOOD when you play them at the right time. Your opponent gets some control but in reality it's not possible for them to really know what they are picking unless they know what is in your hand. YOU are the one that controls the information that they have to make their decision and you have tons of ways to mislead them.

Divide the score by 2 to get my final rating.

Do you really expect people to punch a bunch of arbitrary numbers you spewed onto the forum into an equasion to find your arbitrary evaluation of a card in a vacuum?


sadly, yeah he probably does.

 
120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
Overrun is NOT a win more card. 5 elves and an overrun work just fine. It is fine to have many small weenies on the board if your weenies are dual purpose.

Running 24 one drop creatures and an overun with the standard 24 lands works just fine. Overrun is not meant to make a big creature bigger, it is meant to be the ending knock out punch after the control guy has finally brought out a big gun and thinks he has stabilized.

28 llanowar elves

4 overrun
4 harmonize

24 forest

Works just fine.  Matter of fact it works so well that many other cards have been created to fufill that role in slightly differing ways.

garruk wildspeaker
Ezuri, Renegade Leader

Work jsut as well as the overrun and for exactly the same reason.

The weakness of course is global destruction, but cards have certainly been produced to get around this effect as well.
You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
I always criminally undervalue shades in Limited and then promptly get trounced by them.


One of my favorite things about RtR drafts is how consistenty I can get late-pick Perilous Shadows. I think people tend to overestimate the downside of leaving a lot of mana open in limited.

I think I tend to overestimate expensive bombs in limited, like trying to put an Utvara Hellkite in an aggressive Rakdos deck.

IMAGE(http://steamsignature.com/status/default/76561197995631463.png) No longer a commander as of 7/29/13.

Honestly- card evaluation has a subjective element to it. I thought Blistercoil Weird was a cute limited card the first time I looked at it (y'know when that annoying youtube dude dipped it in tea and ate it.) However, I've seen it reasonably well used in an FNM deck, The fact is that some cards are good and criminally underrated because of some sort of minor or subjective flaw (Ghost Quarter, because it's considered "sideboard land", which is apparently awkward for many players.) Generally, this just requires you to try cards that you think are underutilized to see if they work the way you want them to, and if so, have fun- if not, well atleast you learned something. Interesting example- Ambush Viper isn't such a bad card when your opponent's best way to deal with it is Azorius Charm or Unsummon.
IMAGE(http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af108/acatan/sigwynzermancopy.png) Signature by IMAGE(http://www.poke-amph.com/heartgoldsoulsilver/sprites/258.png)
Honestly- card evaluation has a subjective element to it. I thought Blistercoil Weird was a cute limited card the first time I looked at it (y'know when that annoying youtube dude dipped it in tea and ate it.) However, I've seen it reasonably well used in an FNM deck


I just couldn't get it to work. +1/+1 isn't a big enough bonus and Delver of Secrets and Nivmagus Elemental are just better as one drops. (and both are cheap)

Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
Overrun is win-more. If you have five creatures and aren't dominating the game, there's a problem. If you have two creatures, you could do far better things with five mana. If you're behind, it doesn't do anything because you can't force favorable blocks in desesperation or deal major damage that will be relevant. If you don't have any creature because the other deck is dominating, it is a dead card.

Ezuri and Garruk are great examples of how Overrun is win-more : they both do something else. Ezuri  is a 2/2 that regenerates elves and boosts itself. Even without any other card, he's good. Garruk untaps your lands and produces Wolves. Even without any other cards, he's good. If you're losing badly, topdecking a Ezuri will give you a blocker that can trade and will let you play another elf you can regenerate. If you're losing badly, topdecking a Garruk will let you drop multiple good blockers that will stop the onslaught and let you get back on your feets.

If you're losing, Overrun is a dead card. You don't want that. It's playable in limited, I get that, but not competively. Cards like Muraganda Petroglyphs, Gaea's Anthem, Craterhoof Behemoth and Wellwisher are far better because they are either good on their own or provide a bonusthat will alst the entire game, making them far from dead even if you don't control any creature. You'll prefer another threat over Overrun, even in a swarm deck. 

Rules Advisor

Quotes
76783093 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
58331438 wrote:
56945988 wrote:
Rancor dies to in-response removal.
Yeah... Until next game, where it'll be right back. Seriously, there's no way to deal with Rancor in any format. It should be banned, except Gleemax is a lobbyist for the Rancor party, so that'll never happen.
You can't ban rancor, it just returns to your deck.
58331438 wrote:
57461258 wrote:
You might want to actually talk to the Flavor & Storyline Board people... since, you know, our whole reason for playing Magic is the flavor. I'm willing to bet you'll get a lot more interest there than in General.
Indeed, both posters down there would be thrilled.
57817638 wrote:
I think I wasn't direct enough in my last post. I'll try to fix it now. Ahem... NO ONE CARES there you have it.
57471038 wrote:
When talks about banning Jace first started, I was thinking that I would see him banned come June 20th. But as I think more about it, I don't really think that Jace is the problem anymore. Sure his power level leaves very little to the imagination (opening Jace is like opening a refrigerator box with a naked girl on the inside), and sure his price does have a strong impact on what players choose to play (playing Jace is like being intimate with a woman and she doesn't charge you in the morning), but it is not the source of all the problems in Standard.
76973988 wrote:
How do people think saving room to print more abilities on cards is dumbing down the game?

Do you really think, say, Akroma would ever be printed if she said, "Akroma can block by creatures with this ability and cannot be blocked by creatures without this ability.  If a creature without this ability would deal combat damage by Akroma would be destroyed, prevent all combat damage that creature would deal to Akroma this combat.  Attacking does not cause Akroma to tap.  If Akroma is blocked and deals lethal damage, it deals the remainder of its damage to the defending player.  Akroma may attack and use abilities that require tapping in the casting cost the turn it enters the battlefield.  Akroma cannot be damaged, enchanted, equipped, blocked or targeted by black or red sources" rather than her "dumbed down" wording she has?  No freaking way.  Keywording and shorthand allows them to make complicated cards easy to play with, allowing them to be printed in the first place.
57817638 wrote:
The creation of praetors was worth it just because now amoeboid changeling is a praetor.
57140668 wrote:
1. cast frankie peanuts2. ask opponent "will you concede the game this turn"? if they say yes, you win; if they say no, play a staying power
3. subsequently ask "will you attack this turn"? and "will you cast a spell this turn"? (using a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for the second question if necessary) to ensure they can't disrupt the combo
4. donate them a platinum angel
5. play a mox lotus and braingeyser them for every card in their library. play an opalescence and donate them a glorious anthem and a blacker lotus, then play enchanted evening. play and activate a mindslaver and then donate them a fastbond and the mox lotus (returning one of the donates to your hand with eternal witness or whatever)
6. during their turn, play every permanent in their hand (playing lands with fastbond) then (as yourself) cast mirrorweave on the blacker lotus, so every permanent becomes a copy of it. proceed to tear up every card they control, and hopefully do it before they notice that they aren't bound by staying power's ability anymore and can concede
82423538 wrote:
57471038 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
One part of the statement being true=/=the whole statement true.
Whatever. I'm still here about ten minutes away. Whenever you want to get destroyed in Magic, I'm available.
I would like to get destroyed in Magic, actually. Do you know anybody good enough?
57617478 wrote:
Please format your statements in a way that doesn't look like a baboon hit its face on your keyboard.
57140668 wrote:
why did Garruk Relentless lose a loyalty counter
Show
to get to the other side
89522235 wrote:
You're such an obvious troll that you have hexproof and : Regenerate.
56957928 wrote:
56776038 wrote:
Dark Ritual being overpowered is determined more by what is done with it than the card itself.
True, but the fact that it enables so many ridiculous things is pretty telling. It's like, sure I can use a shotgun as a bludgeoning instrument, but that doesn't make it not a shotgun.
79035425 wrote:
Shortly before Serra died, she transferred her spark into an angel whose full name was Asha Avacyn Bolas. Her dragon father groomed her for her positions in Alara and Innistrad, and she's also been getting help from her uncle Ugin in the form of Urza, who was resurrected as Marit Lage to be the avatar as which she projects herself into material realms. Grieslbrand is a split personality who sometimes wanders the planes disguised as a human woman named Liliana Vess.
97610188 wrote:
Yeah that (Content Removed) really annoys me. Moderated by MY_self right about naahowwww!
93446159 wrote:
Dilleux_Lepaire just won the thread.
57461258 wrote:
And, as usual, Dilleux wins the entire thread. Nice work, sir, nice work.
99113151 wrote:
They need to make 9 layers of zones where cards go when they "die". Much like Hell.
56778328 wrote:
Wow, holy doggy poop, kids, obvious statement is obvious.
56776038 wrote:
122053101 wrote:
i don't think your geting it WotC is trying to kill the comption to make it so that there shity app is the only one left.
I haven't tried the app. How is its use of English grammar? Cheers!
57471038 wrote:
Everyone's life would be easier if players would, instead of coming to the 'net for help with a deck, just netdeck and be done with it. And I'm not talking about some Top 8 lists, for the Casualists, too, can benefit from netdecking. I've netdecked plenty of decks from the Casual Play forums from users such as Mown, Raedien, Floopfoot, and a few others. I snatched straight the heck out of my web browser. Yes, people, your original idea fell victim to a savage netdecker. You have been assimiliated. Suppose I wanted a Zombie deck. Why on earth would I spend time searching Gatherer for a decent list of Zombie cards when Raedien already did it for me? Taking time to be creative or waiting on people on the forums to tell you why your deck sucks or 'go to Casual forums' is a disasterous waste of time (to me).
56957928 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
If WotC started putting $100 bills in packs, the players would complain that they folded them wrong.
No, they just spam them with ban requests. That being said, Magic was ruined back in Alpha when they added all that rules and cards [Debutantes avert your eyes]. My friends and I still like playing it the "pure" way (Basically we go into the woods and hit eachother with wiffle bats while shouting made up obscenities. You know, the way Garfield wanted it to be played).
56957928 wrote:
Don't worry about it. I've come up with a list of changes to fix EDH. -First off, there's no commander. -The minimum deck size is 60 cards, and each deck can have up to four of each card, save basic lands and relentless rats. Also decks have no color identity. -Starting life total is 20. And voila, now things are balanced.
89522235 wrote:
Here's a clever play you can try yourself: -Convince friend to run relentless rats.dec in legacy tournament -Get a deck with lots of mill, yixlid jailer, and humility -Drop humility and jailer, wait for him to dump his hand, mill him out -All his rats now have no abilities. Call a judge because he's playing an illegal deck with more than 4 of a single card. -Get him/her banned from competitive magic play
142055101 wrote:
But how to mark them without making the individual sleeve different! You could buy a skunk and slam it's butt on you deck (pardon the french) Then after the game just sniff at your opponent's pile of cards and you will know if any of your cards are there!!!
141434757 wrote:
In Soviet Russia, Sorin opens You
71235715 wrote:
L, is for the leather gloves you weaaaar. O, is for the organs that guy could spaaaare. V, is very very, extraordinay. E, is for every vagrant i butchered in a wine cellar befooooore.
57052258 wrote:
The outer layer of the Magic: the Gathering box, the carton, or crust, is fairly thin and light, and contains largely aluminosilcates. Within that lies the middle layer, consisting of the familiar booster pack. Although solid, the booster packs' high temperatures allow them to acutally move around within the booster box. This flow, sometimes called convection, is cited by frustrated box mappers as one of WOTC's most genious uses of thermodynamics since the Ravnica block. No one knows what lies at the core of the booster box, but scientists theorize that it must be especially dense in order to make up for the large amount of fluff distributed amongst the booster packs.
58232598 wrote:
88993869 wrote:
Torpor Orb is absolutely godawful against Vexing Devil.
whoever is playing vexing devil is probably losing anyways
56957928 wrote:
I imagine [Ajani 3's] second ability involves him hurling the creature at your opponent Brion Stoutarm style, then the guy is just like "Okay, that may have worked, but don't- GOD DAMN IT!" as he does it again because cats don't give a **** :33.
56957928 wrote:
"Do or do not, there is no try." - Albus Dumbledore, The Lord of the Rings.
89522235 wrote:
68978039 wrote:
Its like that one time Elves broke out in a field of Jund. Elves became a resurgent hit, then died off again once Jund adapted to the rest of the field of G/W that it required mass removal that inherently pooped on Elves too. Submit to the menace. Delver can, and will blot out the sun.
Then we shall play in the shade.
89522235 wrote:
I'm sorry, this forum isn't for getting bad advice on mediocre decks, that's standard deck help. This forum is for starting ****storms.
97820278 wrote:
139359831 wrote:
Your advice would only lead me to make generic, boring, and unworthy content. It's of no use to me.
I just got this image of you as an architect, having finished a building suspended by only a small pole in its southwest corner, saying it's original. Then the building collapses.
56957928 wrote:
I for one love the flavor of legendary lands. "I remember my days as a youth at Tolarian Academy." "Wow, small multiverse, I actually went there too." "WAIT, DON'T- Well ****, there's $200,000 in student loans well spent."
56957928 wrote:
And flavor goes out the window when you cast a second copy of a planeswalker right after the first one dies, so... "Hey Nissa, I need a favor." "You just asked me for a 'favor' like thirty seconds ago, and it turned out to be having Sarkhan Transmogrify my only follower into a dragon like 5 times -which dickery aside also violates some laws of causality - and then you let me get beaten over the head by that hedron crab." "...I'll give you " "...Well all right then."
57150868 wrote:
GM, I don't think Dill is better than you. I KNOW it. Even if he wakes up every morning, clubs a baby seal, steals all the TV remotes from within a block's radius of his house and then robs hungry orphans of their food he'd be better than you, for the simple reason that he learns from his mistakes.
143211137 wrote:
57033358 wrote:
Tamiyo vs. Gideon
What would they have to fight about? Like, all I can think of now is Gideon going "Hey, long-ears! I'm gathering a group of 'Walkers together to fight some tentacle monsters.....you want in?" and Tamiyo going "Ew! Hentai no bakka Gideon-desu desu!" and flying away.
76783093 wrote:
I open 4 packs just to be on the safe side. Not only do I get more cards than everyone else, but I also get to spend the rest of the night off. Win Win.
191752181 wrote:
MaRo has a thing for people opening boosters with bad cards. But since he can only get so many bad cards printed in each set, he has found a devious way of getting more bad cards into circulation: He makes entire print sheets with just bad rares, then puts them onto the assembly line. He proceeds to wring his hands and twirl his evil mustache that he grew for twirling purposes as a lightning bolt strikes in the background. Afterwards, he goes to make sure that the good cards are only opened by everyone's friends, and that we all only get to open bad cards. He does this by memorising each booster, than switching them around accordingly. Whenever someone complains about a card, he immediately jumps out from behind a chair to yell "WELL, IT'S NOT FOR YOU!" before merging back into the shadows in order to devise new ways in which he can screw over players, then claim that he has valid reasons for doing so.
97820278 wrote:
192729031 wrote:
You open a booster pack, and staring back at you from the rare slot is a Lotleth Troll? At least I can stick him in my EDH deck and still have four for my standard constructed.
Because lol troll
56874518 wrote:
It helped that I more or less skipped most of GM_Champion's longer diatribes. I only have so many brain cells I'm willing to sacrifice each day.
192931349 wrote:
Mark Rosewater is sitting in a seemingly innocuous cable TV van, outside of Bankaimastery's house. Sitting nearby are two hardened criminal hackers, fresh out of prison, and filled with resentment at their lack of physical fitness. "Have you managed to hack his brainwaves yet? The set deadline's coming up fast." "We're almost through. It should be coming up on the screen any second." The hacker presses a button, and Kevin's thoughts flash onto the screen. Mark and the hackers stare in amazement at the sheer beauty, the elegance, and the raw truth of what they see. It's like the ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Brilliant light shines across the screen, the truth of existence is made clear to them, and they despair at their own foolishness, their own ignorance, their own inadequacy. And then they steal his ideas. As they return back to R&D, Mark sneers at a haggard old man chained to a cast-iron sphere. The man looks up from his laborious task of breaking rocks in the dungeon of Wizards of the Coast headquarters, and asks a question: "Kevin, my greatest student. He - he's all right, isn't he? You didn't hurt him?" Mark deals him a weighty blow with his boot. "Know your place, Richard. Get back to work."
57023768 wrote:
Now show me on the Garruk doll where Zac Hill ruined your enjoyment of Magic...
63711769 wrote:
I'm only opposed to it because it bears so little relation to how people actually play the game. The example of Miracles is actually a much better one then the Clone example I was trying to use. From the game's perspective, the card can move instantly from face down in the library to revealed in the hand and that's fine for the rules. But in real life, we can't actually do that, so the card spends a good bit of time in locations that are neither where that player's library is nor where that player's hand is. And that's fine for real life. What I don't want is the disconnect to be explicitly codified. Along the lines of
183664.697 A game of Magic as laid out by these rules exists only as a pure Platonic ideal, utterly unrealizable by fallible mortals limited by the confines of physicality and the ravages of evil and sin. 183664.698 The cake is a lie, too.
I know it's true, but I don't want the rules to actually straight-up tell me that.
147137503 wrote:
77120821 wrote:
Pfft this cant be serious can it? If it is please delete your account OP. Its not even close to ban worthy, considering what JTMS and stoneforge had to accomplish to get banned i see the WotC selling magic to aquire Pokemon before that ever happens.
I'm trying to imagine sorin markov as a gym leader in one of those pokemon games which you have to beat him to get his badge... somehow I imagine that he would stab you in the chest with his sword before giving you the badge, even if you beat his pokemon....
196239043 wrote:
Personally, I'd be fine with tea time but then I'm not gonna waste the mana summoning Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. He always takes all the sugar, drinks the whole pot of Earl Grey and doesn't even say thank you. SO. RUDE.

 

JustTerrorIt wrote:

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

All I want to do is sit down and play magic, but when I walked in yesterday, (since I didn't talk to anyone) nobody talked to me and I silently bought what I wanted and walked out.


If you don't talk to anyone, that increases the odds that no one will talk to you.

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

So how do I just... introduce myself? "Hi, my name is Adam, wanna play magic with me?" Do I go to the counter and talk to the cashier?


Yeah. Talk to the cashier. Tell him/her that you want a Black Lotus, and if they don't have one tell them that the store isn't on par with what you expected.

 

Reach into your back left pocket. Pull out a deck list that you copied directly from some ChannelFireball top 8 Standard discussion, and ask for all the cards, as is, on that list. Then, ask for some random, probably terrible cards from whatever set is Standard legal. Say it's tech for the upcoming changes in the metagame.

 

Pull out a deck, and tell some random dude you wanna test (you have to use the term "test" for this to work) for Standard. Make sure that deck contains Kitchen Finks and Alluring Siren. Maybe throw in Nyxathid for good measure.

 

Finally, before you leave, spill (make it look like an accident) one hundred singleton, random cards onto the floor. Pick them up, put them in a pile, and say "EEE-DEE-AYCH".

 

I know this sounds dumb at first, but it will work. With the method outlined above, you will draw the attention of players that play older formats by asking for cards that no one on Earth can reasonably afford. You will get the attention of the wanna-be pro, Stomp-n00bz players by pulling out a well known decklist and declare that you have "tech" to make it better. You will get the attention of all the kind, helpful players by seemingly not knowing the most common format by having non-Standard legal cards in a deck that you claim is Standard legal. Finally, you catch all the rest of the Magic players by saying "EEE-DEE-AYCH" (EDH (or Commander)).

And there you have it. You will be talking to more people than you would have wanted to talk to in no time.

 

Smoke_Stack wrote:

EDH is the best format anyway


See, it's starting already.

 

Break the Card
What is Break the Card?
Break the Card is a regular thread in the Cards and Combo Forum. Quite simply, the participants are given a Johnnystatic card (e.g. Xenograft) and are asked to build a deck around it. The winner and honorable mentions are sigged below. Get brewing!
Week 1 : Xenograft
This week's Break the Card was based around Xenograft. Thread : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27681049/Break_the_card_:_Xenograft?pg=1 Winner : Axterix with his Vampdrazi deck. Finalist : Vektor480 with his Ally/Golem/Plant deck. Honorable mentions : Zammm for the Turntimber Ranger combo and TinGorilla for suggesting Sarkhan the Mad.
Week 2 : Mindlock Orb
Here's the link to the Mindlock Orb contest : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27697565/Break_the_Card_:_Mindlock_Orb?sdb=1&pg=last#497536269 Winner : Axterix with his Maralen of the Mornsong deck. Honorable mentions : Void_Elemental.
Week 3 : Bludgeon Brawl
Here's the link to Break the Card : Bludgeon Brawl : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27715169/Break_the_Card_:_Bludgeon_Brawl?sdb=1&pg=last#498208797 Winner : Vektor and his Grab the World deck. Finalist : Crandor with his Awesome Aliteration deck. Honorable mentions : RP Jesus with his Wat deck and Zix200 with his Signet Renewal deck.
Week 4 : Followed Footsteps
This week was Followed Footsteps : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27748677/Break_the_Card_:_Followed_Footsteps?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Exponential Growth deck. Honorable mentions : Zix with his Carbon Copies deck and Escef with his Fungus of Speed and Time deck.
Week 5 : Delaying Shield
This week's card was Delaying Shield : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27790101/Break_the_Card_:_Delaying_Shield Winner : Tevish_Szat. Finalist : Vampire_Bat. Honorable Mention : Zix200.
Week 6 : Painter's Servant
This week's card was Painter's Servant : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27940861/Break_the_Card_:_Painters_Servant?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Paint it Black deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his Tiger, Tiger Painted Bright deck.
Week 7 : Venser, the Sojourner
This week's card was Venser, the Sojourner : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27977489/Break_the_Card_:_Venser,_the_Sojourner Winner : Izzett with her "Venser, Trickster Trader" deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his "Tactical Sojourner Action" deck.
Week 8 : Personal Sanctuary
This week's card was Personal Sanctuary : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28005461/Break_the_card_:_Personal_Sanctuary Winner : MrQuizzles. Honorable mention : Vampire_Bat and UbberSheep
Week 9 : Sundial of the Infinite
This week's card was Sundial of the Infinite : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28038277/Break_the_card_:_Sundial_of_the_Infinite Finalist : Izzett with her "Afterlife Trespassers" deck. Winner : Xeromus with his "Fortune 500" deck.
Week 10 : Jace's Archivist
This week's card was Jace's Archivist : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28063377/Break_the_Card_:_Jaces_Archivist. Finalists : Jentaru with his "Consecration of the Draw" deck and HereticSmitty with his "ADHD: The deck" deck. Winner : JaxsonBateman with his "The Archives Are Endless!" deck.
Week 11 : Search the City
This week's card was Search the City : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29518555/Break_the_Card_:_Search_the_City Finalist : Mown with "A Thousand Footsteps". Winner : Desolation_masticore with "Burn the City".
Week 12 : Fiend Hunter
This week's card was Fiend Hunter : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29530975/Break_the_Card_:_Fiend_Hunter Winner : Yuyu63 with "Carnival Hunting". Honorable mention : Dknowle's "Champion the Fiend".
Week 13 : Clock of Omens
This week's card was Clock of Omens : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29541549/Break_the_Card_:_Clock_of_Omens?pg=1 Winner : Dknowle's "The Myrs Go Marching".
Week 14 : Light of Sanction
This week's card was Light of Sanction : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29607219/Break_the_Card_:_Light_of_Sanction?pg=1 Winner : Zauzich's "Divine Plague".
Week 15 : Assemble the Legion
This week's card was Assemble the Legion : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29662307/Break_the_Card_:_Assemble_the_Legion Winner : JBTM's "Some Assembly Required".
Week 16 : High Tide
This week's cards were High Tide and/or Bubbling Muck : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29760427/Break_the_Card_:_High_Tide Winner : Mown's "Puppet Strings".
Week 17 : Illusionist's Bracers
This week's card was Illusionist's Bracers : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29776943/Break_the_Card_:_Illusionistss_Bracers Winner : Enigma256's "Tezzeret's Bracers"
Week 18 : Savor the Moment
This week's card was Savor the Moment : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29787235/Break_the_Card_:_Savor_the_Moment Winner : POSValkir's "A Savory Filibuster!"
Week 19 : Grinning Ignus
This week's card was Grinning Ignus : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29795547/Break_the_Card_:_Grinning_Ignus Winner : dknowle's "Luren' and Laughin'".
Week 20 : Transcendence
This week's card was Transcendence : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29806481/Break_the_Card_:_Transcendence Winners : Mown's "Transcending Timing Restrictions" and Dknowle's "Blinded by Greed", tied for the win.
Week 21 : Mortus Strider
This week's card was Mortus Strider : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29818471/Break_the_Card_:_Mortus_Strider Winner : SimonGlume's "Mortus Head".
Week 22 : High Priest of Penance
This week's card was High Priest of Penance : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29917231/Break_the_Card_High_Priest_of_Penance Winners : JBTM's "Two Clerics and a Goblin walk into a (Bom)bar(dment)..." and POSValkir1's "Choke Their Rivers with Our Dead!".
Week 23 : False Cure
This week's card was False Cure :http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29964239/Break_the_Card_:_False_Cure Winner : Dknowle's "When Hippos Fly".

Week 24 : Akroan Horse

This week's card was Akroan Horse : http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4024821.

Winner : Dknowle's "Indian Giver".

Week 25 : Leylines

This week saw multiple cards being in the contest : all of the Leylines! http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4067621

Winner : POSValkir1's "Laying the Battle Lines".


I thought I'd chime in about punisher cards one more time after the game I just had on Duels of the Planeswalkers 2013. I was running red black against aggro mill craziness, I got him down to 14 using Ashenmoor Gouger and other creatures that died tragically and barely managed to kill two of his Jaces Phantasms when he used Telemin Performance to rip a Demigod of Revenge out of my deck and smacked me with it. He needs one more swing with demigod to kill me. On my turn I opened with a Vexing Devil That I had been holding the entire game. Imagine having no knowledge of my hand and being in the opponent's position - what do you do? Do You let it into play and let me have 4 power I can swing back with if I kill your demigod? Do you take the damage and deny me board position that I could use to come back? What is really the safer play? 14 life does seem like a lot in this situation but I could have any number of hastey creatures, removal spells, burn, all kinds of stuff. These are the grey areas where those cards can be really powerful.


He ended up taking 4 damage and I didn't actually do anything for the rest of my turn, on his turn he swung with demigod and I killed it with Terminate before it hit me, then on my turn I played my own Demigod and brought the dead one back, swung with both and I won. Even if he didn't take the damage I would have killed his creature and won that turn attacking with two demigods and the devil. I couldn't have won that quickly without the Devil, and I realize that all of the other cards were just as important but that's exactly the point - these cards have a time and a place like any other cards and they are SO GOOD when you play them at the right time. Your opponent gets some control but in reality it's not possible for them to really know what they are picking unless they know what is in your hand. YOU are the one that controls the information that they have to make their decision and you have tons of ways to mislead them.





How many spells could have had the same effect for example goblin guide would have dealt 4 damage over those two turns or char, flames of the blood hand and other spells which you clearly had the mana availible for (if you're casting the 5 CMC demon). In that particular case neither choice would have done your opponent any good so really he didn't make a bad decision.

These topics of discussion always go in circles. People are always throwing scenerios at me where their dash hopes worked perfectly or they got exactly what they needed/wanted from their browbeat. At the moment none of the top decks in extended or beyond are playing vexing devil and it seems a questionable inclusion for standard decklists. If that isn't enough of a sign.... then I don't know what to say. vexing devil is obviously more playable than dash hopes and I think there is room for it in standard in the right decklist but don't make it out to be something it's not.

fact or fiction isn't good because the opponent sometimes makes a bad decision, it's good because it's good no matter what decision the opponent makes. vexing devil doesn't have that flexability. Sure there are some situations where it's a win win situation (such as your example) but there are other situations where you need to deal 4 damage and the opponent has a removal spell, or you need a blocker and the opponent just takes the damage.

On overrun it has been seen top decks of standard tournaments as recently as M10. I wasn't active during M12 so I don't know how much it was played there but it was heavily played in standard during tenth and M10 and even saw extended play. Overrun is not a "win more" spell. It is an "I win" spell. The decks that play overrun often cast it turn 3-5 and frequently get in before board sweeps. Sure it's a little slow in modern but I think modern elves would play overrun if regal force wasn't an option (as extended elves did back in the day). Five 1/1 creatures isn't dominating the board and comparing gaea's anthem to overrun is a joke that card hasn't seen tournament play since the day it was printed.
Don't be too smart to have fun

How many spells could have had the same effect for example goblin guide would have dealt 4 damage over those two turns or char, flames of the blood hand and other spells which you clearly had the mana availible for (if you're casting the 5 CMC demon). In that particular case neither choice would have done your opponent any good so really he didn't make a bad decision.


That's the point that I was making... It's possible to manufacture situations where there is no good choice, or at least the opponent has no way of knowing which is really the right choice. A lot of these cards have very low casting costs and that can be a bit misleading because in reality most of the time they are late game cards for when you have manipulated the board into some position where you could benefit from the confusion the card can produce.




These topics of discussion always go in circles. People are always throwing scenerios at me where their dash hopes worked perfectly or they got exactly what they needed/wanted from their browbeat. At the moment none of the top decks in extended or beyond are playing vexing devil and it seems a questionable inclusion for standard decklists. If that isn't enough of a sign.... then I don't know what to say. vexing devil is obviously more playable than dash hopes and I think there is room for it in standard in the right decklist but don't make it out to be something it's not.


It's the same thing with Dash Hopes - there's a time and a place. It's best used in a very aggressive deck for managing your opponent's ability to stabilize. You obviously don't play it on inconsequential spells at times when your opponent doesn't give a ****. That makes them dead cards sometimes but literally every card in the game can be "dead" at some point in the game. You can't play your win condition if you have to hold for the counterspell/removal, you can't play your creature enchantment on a creature that you can tell is just going to be killed immediately, etc...


fact or fiction isn't good because the opponent sometimes makes a bad decision, it's good because it's good no matter what decision the opponent makes. vexing devil doesn't have that flexability. Sure there are some situations where it's a win win situation (such as your example) but there are other situations where you need to deal 4 damage and the opponent has a removal spell, or you need a blocker and the opponent just takes the damage.



Fact or Fiction happens to be a card that is always good because you still pick what you want at the end of the day anyway, but you set the tone and pick the timing for every spell you play. Magic is a game that depends heavily on your ability to gather information and make judgements about the state of the game. Not only is it possible to relatively consistently know what your opponent can do in any given situation but it's also possible to mislead another player as to what you may have. A lot of the punisher spells put that ability to the test.


Sometimes there is no good choice, but a lot of times there IS a clearly better choice and the problem is actually knowing which one is correct. You might say these are beginners' traps but you can fool the hell out of someone who knows the game well if you get them overthinking. Are you familiar with Penn and Teller? There's a video on youtube where Teller talks about "Magician's Magic" where a magician performing a trick for another magician may imply that he's done a trick but he's actually done something totally different. Even though the observing magician was looking for all of the all of the loads and thought he was seeing through the misdirection the performing magician was still able to use those things the observer was looking for to fool him. This is a beautiful staple of all competitive games as well.


I don't mean to say that Punisher cards MUST be played or even that they are particularly powerful, but I think there are at least a handful that are playable and shouldn't be overlooked. Most aren't played competitively and maybe they shouldn't be - it's not my place to tell people when and where to play cards and even I might not play them if I was seriously competing - but sometimes they can really surprise you and I guess surprises are kind of what this thread is about.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP4_MuBugFo&hd=1


I thought I'd chime in about punisher cards one more time after the game I just had on Duels of the Planeswalkers 2013. I was running red black against aggro mill craziness, I got him down to 14 using Ashenmoor Gouger and other creatures that died tragically and barely managed to kill two of his Jaces Phantasms when he used Telemin Performance to rip a Demigod of Revenge out of my deck and smacked me with it. He needs one more swing with demigod to kill me. On my turn I opened with a Vexing Devil That I had been holding the entire game. Imagine having no knowledge of my hand and being in the opponent's position - what do you do? Do You let it into play and let me have 4 power I can swing back with if I kill your demigod? Do you take the damage and deny me board position that I could use to come back? What is really the safer play? 14 life does seem like a lot in this situation but I could have any number of hastey creatures, removal spells, burn, all kinds of stuff. These are the grey areas where those cards can be really powerful.


He ended up taking 4 damage and I didn't actually do anything for the rest of my turn, on his turn he swung with demigod and I killed it with Terminate before it hit me, then on my turn I played my own Demigod and brought the dead one back, swung with both and I won. Even if he didn't take the damage I would have killed his creature and won that turn attacking with two demigods and the devil. I couldn't have won that quickly without the Devil, and I realize that all of the other cards were just as important but that's exactly the point - these cards have a time and a place like any other cards and they are SO GOOD when you play them at the right time. Your opponent gets some control but in reality it's not possible for them to really know what they are picking unless they know what is in your hand. YOU are the one that controls the information that they have to make their decision and you have tons of ways to mislead them.





How many spells could have had the same effect for example goblin guide would have dealt 4 damage over those two turns or char, flames of the blood hand and other spells which you clearly had the mana availible for (if you're casting the 5 CMC demon). In that particular case neither choice would have done your opponent any good so really he didn't make a bad decision.

These topics of discussion always go in circles. People are always throwing scenerios at me where their dash hopes worked perfectly or they got exactly what they needed/wanted from their browbeat. At the moment none of the top decks in extended or beyond are playing vexing devil and it seems a questionable inclusion for standard decklists. If that isn't enough of a sign.... then I don't know what to say. vexing devil is obviously more playable than dash hopes and I think there is room for it in standard in the right decklist but don't make it out to be something it's not.

fact or fiction isn't good because the opponent sometimes makes a bad decision, it's good because it's good no matter what decision the opponent makes. vexing devil doesn't have that flexability. Sure there are some situations where it's a win win situation (such as your example) but there are other situations where you need to deal 4 damage and the opponent has a removal spell, or you need a blocker and the opponent just takes the damage.

On overrun it has been seen top decks of standard tournaments as recently as M10. I wasn't active during M12 so I don't know how much it was played there but it was heavily played in standard during tenth and M10 and even saw extended play. Overrun is not a "win more" spell. It is an "I win" spell. The decks that play overrun often cast it turn 3-5 and frequently get in before board sweeps. Sure it's a little slow in modern but I think modern elves would play overrun if regal force wasn't an option (as extended elves did back in the day). Five 1/1 creatures isn't dominating the board and comparing gaea's anthem to overrun is a joke that card hasn't seen tournament play since the day it was printed.

Dash Hopes! Thanks, I was trying to think of that card but couldn't, so settled on Browbeat instead. Yeah, I would actually describe Dash Hopes as kind of the epitome of this debate and the errors involved.

Incidentally, humans are statistically WAY overly optimistic. We're very bad at predicting negative probabilities. Kind of an interesting cognitive take on this question of faulty evaluation, since the big problem with these choice cards is that it's really easy to see best case scenarios and very difficult to see even average scenarios.
Coming Soon to the Magic: Expanded Multiverse: FRAGMENTS: A Shards of Alara Anthology
(Click through to view the cover and announcement page)Want to get your work in the Expanded Multiverse? Come join the project! Oh, and check out my blog, Storming the Ivory Tower: making sense of academia, media, and culture twice weekly.

I thought I'd chime in about punisher cards one more time after the game I just had on Duels of the Planeswalkers 2013. I was running red black against aggro mill craziness, I got him down to 14 using Ashenmoor Gouger and other creatures that died tragically and barely managed to kill two of his Jaces Phantasms when he used Telemin Performance to rip a Demigod of Revenge out of my deck and smacked me with it. He needs one more swing with demigod to kill me. On my turn I opened with a Vexing Devil That I had been holding the entire game. Imagine having no knowledge of my hand and being in the opponent's position - what do you do? Do You let it into play and let me have 4 power I can swing back with if I kill your demigod? Do you take the damage and deny me board position that I could use to come back? What is really the safer play? 14 life does seem like a lot in this situation but I could have any number of hastey creatures, removal spells, burn, all kinds of stuff. These are the grey areas where those cards can be really powerful.


He ended up taking 4 damage and I didn't actually do anything for the rest of my turn, on his turn he swung with demigod and I killed it with Terminate before it hit me, then on my turn I played my own Demigod and brought the dead one back, swung with both and I won. Even if he didn't take the damage I would have killed his creature and won that turn attacking with two demigods and the devil. I couldn't have won that quickly without the Devil, and I realize that all of the other cards were just as important but that's exactly the point - these cards have a time and a place like any other cards and they are SO GOOD when you play them at the right time. Your opponent gets some control but in reality it's not possible for them to really know what they are picking unless they know what is in your hand. YOU are the one that controls the information that they have to make their decision and you have tons of ways to mislead them.





How many spells could have had the same effect for example goblin guide would have dealt 4 damage over those two turns or char, flames of the blood hand and other spells which you clearly had the mana availible for (if you're casting the 5 CMC demon). In that particular case neither choice would have done your opponent any good so really he didn't make a bad decision.

These topics of discussion always go in circles. People are always throwing scenerios at me where their dash hopes worked perfectly or they got exactly what they needed/wanted from their browbeat. At the moment none of the top decks in extended or beyond are playing vexing devil and it seems a questionable inclusion for standard decklists. If that isn't enough of a sign.... then I don't know what to say. vexing devil is obviously more playable than dash hopes and I think there is room for it in standard in the right decklist but don't make it out to be something it's not.

fact or fiction isn't good because the opponent sometimes makes a bad decision, it's good because it's good no matter what decision the opponent makes. vexing devil doesn't have that flexability. Sure there are some situations where it's a win win situation (such as your example) but there are other situations where you need to deal 4 damage and the opponent has a removal spell, or you need a blocker and the opponent just takes the damage.

On overrun it has been seen top decks of standard tournaments as recently as M10. I wasn't active during M12 so I don't know how much it was played there but it was heavily played in standard during tenth and M10 and even saw extended play. Overrun is not a "win more" spell. It is an "I win" spell. The decks that play overrun often cast it turn 3-5 and frequently get in before board sweeps. Sure it's a little slow in modern but I think modern elves would play overrun if regal force wasn't an option (as extended elves did back in the day). Five 1/1 creatures isn't dominating the board and comparing gaea's anthem to overrun is a joke that card hasn't seen tournament play since the day it was printed.

Dash Hopes! Thanks, I was trying to think of that card but couldn't, so settled on Browbeat instead. Yeah, I would actually describe Dash Hopes as kind of the epitome of this debate and the errors involved.

Incidentally, humans are statistically WAY overly optimistic. We're very bad at predicting negative probabilities. Kind of an interesting cognitive take on this question of faulty evaluation, since the big problem with these choice cards is that it's really easy to see best case scenarios and very difficult to see even average scenarios.


Average scenario: Your opponent makes the choice over two (typically) extremely powerful and undercosted abilities.
57170298 wrote:
Borrowing the East Wind (P3) - Haha, it's like Hurricane but for horsemanship? That makes hilariously little sense. "Oh man, the wind is so much worse up on this horse."
57044478 wrote:
Jon Finkel can win a Magic tournament with a ham sandwich. That doesn't mean ham sandwiches are now the metagame breaker.
97820278 wrote:
Koth: I'm the first viable red planeswalker. Who are you? Tibalt: I'm a two-mana red planeswalker. Koth: I'm the last viable red planeswalker.
For those with less memory or less past in mtg I can tell you that the dragonauts WERE part of two succesfull designs.

The old one was UGR, and the later became WRU.

The general concept died to the fact that path to exile and swords to plowshares were often played shortly after the WRU version had it's hey-day.

Interrestingly enough the UGR version split into a precursor of thresh!

Evolution is such fun!

Also, blistecoil weird is a reactive card, which needs advanced evaluation of when to use it and how to use it. I think it will show up in decks when it's been played enough by expert players.
(Attacking with it while burning any blockers, and storing some instants for when there is a counterattack, could be one way to play it!)


I'd love to see a U/R deck with lots of cards costing R or U and spiced with  clout of the dominus.

It's sad it doesn't react as well to flusterstorm as nivmagus elemental does
Average scenario: Your opponent makes the choice over two (typically) extremely powerful and undercosted abilities.



Not really. Taking 5 damage, losing 5 life or whatever doesn't even come close to the value of the other ability. The "punisher" half of the card is almost always the worst for you, and best for your opponent. The only situation in which I'd let my opponent draw three with Browbeat would be if I had less than six life left, or knew that he could kill me if I took the damage. Now, you might think that 5 damage for 3 mana would make for a great burn spell. And you'd be right. But that's not what you're getting. Read what I said earlier again. If I was low enough on health for it to make a difference, I'd let you draw three. It would be pretty much impossible for me to regain the advantage from such a board position, but a slim hope is always better than certain defeat.

So what can we ascertain from this? The only time your opponent is gonna let you get three cards is when you'd rather deal 5 to him. In other words, it's never gonna be as good as just playing a card that does what you want it to for certain. I.e. either Fiathless Looting or Flame Javelin type cards, depending on what you want to achieve. Cards like Browbeat are win-more cards - cards that will only help you win when you're already winning. Unlike other cards, they won't allow you to regain your footing when you're in a disadvantageous board position. Thus making their actual utility as working pieces of your deck that assist you in securing victory from the bloodied and bruised remains of your opponent quite limited, and pretty much non-existent.
Reactive "punisher" cards, dash hopes are terrible. (Exception: Molten Influence;)) Book Burning is a special case, since it was used on the caster. I think everyone agrees it's good or okay when used that way. That leaves Browbeat, vexing devil, and the black one that takes an extra turn as the only proactive cards. I beleive these are best considered against the cards you would play instead.The black costs just as much as blue cards to take an extra turn, so it's not good.

When Browbeat was first printed, the best damage you could get for three mana was fiery temper. The extra two damage is a big deal, and the decks it was played could be sure of getting six damage next turn if you let them draw. barbarian ring and grim lavamancer, along with flashback stuff, were key parts of these decks, which could be fueled by the extra draws. It was not unusual for a draw three to give a player an extra ten damage over the next two turns. These decks also ran out of fuel with an opponent around 8 life. Resolving browbeat here was saying "one way or another, you will be dead next turn." Invasion/Odyssy block was a perfect setup for browbeat. Once Legions came out, the goblin decks had enough better options to replace it.

When Browbeat was reprinted, this wasn't true. char out classed it, Later replaced by lava javalin. TSP had some reusable cards, but not enough to turn three cards into six damage reliablely. It wasn't worth playing there, and Planar Chaos introduced dash hopes, and a great number of bad players who loved it. Trashing dash hopes turned into trashing all punisher cards, including browbeat, poorly setup in that meta. 2007 was the last time browbeat was legal in standard, so people look back to that when talking about it and not its good times in 2002.

vexing devil is a poor choice in this slow, ramp-heavy meta. It would have done well in a faster meta.
Check out my cube!
Show
My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
Why is Molten Influence good, but not Dash Hopes? Dash Hopes does every single thing better(in 1v1, which I assume is what we are talking about.)
Reactive "punisher" cards, dash hopes are terrible. (Exception: Molten Influence;))



Why is Molten Influence good, but not Dash Hopes? Dash Hopes does every single thing better(in 1v1, which I assume is what we are talking about.)


See the wink? Sarcasm is hard to hear over the internet.
Check out my cube!
Show
My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
Reactive "punisher" cards, dash hopes are terrible. (Exception: Molten Influence;))



Why is Molten Influence good, but not Dash Hopes? Dash Hopes does every single thing better(in 1v1, which I assume is what we are talking about.)


See the wink? Sarcasm is hard to hear over the internet.


You can't just use sarcasm just to do it, obviously nobody is going to get it if you just blurt something out with no context or reason why you would be joking.
Huh. I figured the wink was enough. Sorry.
Check out my cube!
Show
My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
Wink plus obviously wrong statement? Seemed like pretty obvious irony to me.
Coming Soon to the Magic: Expanded Multiverse: FRAGMENTS: A Shards of Alara Anthology
(Click through to view the cover and announcement page)Want to get your work in the Expanded Multiverse? Come join the project! Oh, and check out my blog, Storming the Ivory Tower: making sense of academia, media, and culture twice weekly.
I'm actually a fan of Dash Hopes - but I'd never consider it to actually counter something.
Reason being, how many other cards for 2-CMC can do 5 damage to a player in Black?
I play it in my suicide black deck just for the "burn" ability alone, but when someone actually lets me counter something, that's nice too.    
Bond of Agony can do it for 1. ;)

NOTE THE WINK

3DH4LIF3

Bond of Agony can do it for 1. ;) NOTE THE WINK

that's not how this card works
proud member of the 2011 community team
Bond of Agony can do it for 1. ;) NOTE THE WINK



I see the wink - but doing it for one is just discarding it.....
I thought this thread was about Cards that were *almost* - not quite, kinda good, you know?
Bond of Agony can do it for 1. ;) NOTE THE WINK



I see the wink - but doing it for one is just discarding it.....
I thought this thread was about Cards that were *almost* - not quite, kinda good, you know?


Inexperienced players sometimes misread Bond of Agony and assume they don't have to pay the part of the mana cost if they pay the X life cost, thus turning it into "If you have more life than your opponent, you win the game," for .

IMAGE(http://steamsignature.com/status/default/76561197995631463.png) No longer a commander as of 7/29/13.

Wink plus obviously wrong statement? Seemed like pretty obvious irony to me.

I deal with stupid people for a living, it's genuinely difficult to judge sarcasm based on how wrong people are. If that were the benchmark, certain ancient texts would be great works of satire.
I'm trying to play the new DotP DLC and I've found that Swords to Ape Hairs is more useful than I once thought. If only it was in a good deck...