Monk Discussion, without the alignment wars

DO NOT USE THIS THREAD TO TALK ABOUT ALIGNMENT.  Go elsewhere, there are plenty of options.  I will report any post as off-topic that discusses alignment in this thread.

This thread is for discussing the meat of the Monk class.  Discussion questions:

1)  Do you like the choice to use Expertise Dice for the monk?  Why or why not?
2)  Do you like the implementation of daily resources for Ki uses?  Why or why not?
3)  Do you feel that the abilities granted by Ki uses are appropriate?  What else would you like to see?
4)  Do you think the Monk-specific maneuvers do enough to capture the unique feel of a Monk?  Why or why not?  What other maneuvers would you like to see?
5)  Do you think the non-Monk-specific maneuvers are appropriate for the Monk?  Are there any you think should be added?
6)  Do you like the passive abilities of the Monk?
7)  Do you like the implementation of AC for the Monk?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Yay for this thread!

1.) no. I like expertise dice for fighters only. It made them unique.
2.) kind of. See below.
3.) yeah.
4.) yes, and I'd like to see a little more 4E monk in there, too.
5.) no. I don't like treading on toes of other classes without multi-classing.
6.) yes.
7.) meh. Need to test it a bit.

Re Ki: I'd like to see "Focused Ki" where you meditate for 10 min and focus your Ki. While focused, you gain X benefits. On your turn, as part of your action, you may expend/release your focused Ki to make use of one of your Ki powers. (Which you acquire by leveling).

Then you can get multiple charges of Ki as you level up (like levels 6, 11, & 16 for instance).

Anyway I'd rather actually link meditation (or rest, or drinking for drunk master) to the Ki powers. This is preferable to me over expertise dice.

-Brad

Given that you said yes for 4), isn't it possible to also have unique things for fighters, even if the underlying structure is shared across classes?

Oh, and as far as drunken master...taking a swig is what refreshes your Expertise Dice.  Like?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Cross-Posting from the Other Thread first

Yes, the "expertise mechanic" is interesting (and simple) enough that it could be used for every single class - that still doesn't mean I'm excited to see it used on every single class (that isn't a spellcaster).  Honestly, maybe I'd be more excited if it was used on every single class, instead of "every single class (but not spellcasters)".  It'd be a simpler, and more consistent, game at least.


But, that pet peeve aside: Monk looks good, I guess?  Ki stuff is weird to me, in that it doesn't interact with the expertise mechanic at all (and that just seems like such an obvious thing to do with it).  Static class features are generally uninteresting immunities - not a problem, just not something I care for in the slightest.

EDIT: Honestly, "Expertise" is just looking (edit2) more and more like the 5e equivalent of 3e's "Full Base Attack Bonus + Bonus Feats".  (edit2) But hey, the 3e Monk could have really used Full Base Attack Bonus and some bonus feats, so it's a good move here.


1)  Do you like the choice to use Expertise Dice for the monk?  Why or why not?
It (Expertise Dice) is rapidly becoming nothing more than 5e's "Full (or High) Base Attack Bonus" - I'm really not interesting in seeing that.  I was much more interested in seeing the Fighter have a cool - and unique - mechanical place in the game, and my general concern with the Fighter being "Just More of the Same" is... not exactly being alleviated.

2)  Do you like the implementation of daily resources for Ki uses?  Why or why not?
Sure - but Ki just feels weird right now.  Why does it not interact with Expertise at all?  It feels like the class has been pieced together from multiple disparate drafts.

3)  Do you feel that the abilities granted by Ki uses are appropriate?  What else would you like to see?
Right now they're super-dull, and super-limited.  And again, the completely lack of interaction with Expertise is just... odd.

4)  Do you think the Monk-specific maneuvers do enough to capture the unique feel of a Monk?  Why or why not?  What other maneuvers would you like to see?
Sure.  The Monk class is... not exactly a complex concept.  And Expertise/Maneuvers is a strong enough mechanic that you could build an entire game system around it.

5)  Do you think the non-Monk-specific maneuvers are appropriate for the Monk?  Are there any you think should be added?
Sure.  Though why Flurry of Blows, as-written, isn't also available to the Fighter (with weapons, even), doesn't make much sense to me.

6)  Do you like the passive abilities of the Monk?
They're really dull, and don't provide any choices.  They're not offensive, just uninteresting.

7)  Do you like the implementation of AC for the Monk?
Ugh, stacking multiple ability scores (again)?  No, I really don't.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
1) Yes, and No.  Ki should then be used for maneuvers.
2) No.  I'd prefer encounter, and used as a maneuver booster.  If dragonball z taught me anything, is that it takes 10 minutes to gather your ki.   
3) Meh.  But i'm not sure what else to add.
4) Not bad so far.  But i havn't played them yet.
5) Sure.
6) No.  Give advantage, not immunity.
7) Yes.  But only if point buy is the norm.

So basically, monks get less expertise dice per turn, but get some bonus ones for an encounter.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

1)  Do you like the choice to use Expertise Dice for the monk?  Why or why not?
It (Expertise Dice) is rapidly becoming nothing more than 5e's "Full (or High) Base Attack Bonus" - I'm really not interesting in seeing that.  I was much more interested in seeing the Fighter have a cool - and unique - mechanical place in the game, and my general concern with the Fighter being "Just More of the Same" is... not exactly being alleviated.

Expertise/Maneuvers are a thinly disguised "martial spell list".  It's a pretty decent idea, until the v-tudes figure that out.

Look, I really like expertise dice. They're awesome. As a mechanic they definitely work, and work well.

That said, I am more interested in having a unique fighter class than in spreading this very good mechanic around to other classes.

I agree with Greatfrito, here, that the more expertise dice are spread, the more it begins to look like "full attack + feats."

Fighters start to become the lackluster option. Even if this is mechanically sound, it feels wrong.

So I think Ki/monk needs its own schtik. Daily, per encounter, or round by round - it just has to be unique.

-Brad

1) I'm not sure yet how I feel about expertise dice being used for multiple classes. On one hand I want each class to be unique, but on the other I understand the "If it ain't broke, Don't fix it" view. I would be comfortable with something inbetween. Using expertise dice, but maintaining a unique feel for each class. The Devs are trying to do this, as evidence with the monk having abilities other than maneuvers. So I have high hopes.

2) I like it a lot. I feel giving monk both kinds of recources will make a very interesting class. Choices will be more interesting with some of your abilities being off of Expertise Dice. It gives the Devs the ability to give story warping power to the monk without effecting it's amount of turn to turn options. Good idea.

3) I think the abilities are fine for now. Stunning fist not being on expertise dice I'm sure is going to rub some people the wrong way, but I believe it's fine the way it is. Allows it to be powerful without fear of spam.

4) I like them. Not all of them are direct damage upgrades and add cool effects that emulate some of the crazy martial arts moves we've seen. Hurricane Strike is my particular fav. Classic Bruce Lee backfist making an enemy fly into a wall.

5) Eh, they work I guess. I'm still for more unique maneuvers and less crossover. I feel the same way for spells :P

6) Passive abilities seem familiar, borderlining on copy/paste. It kind of put me off about just reusing the wisdom for AC, but I guess it's a pretty decent way to go about with what with the Stat caps and all.

7) ^
My two copper.
That said, I am more interested in having a unique fighter class than in spreading this very good mechanic around to other classes.

The only real difference between a Cleric and a Wizard, apart from combat math, is the spell list.  Maneuvers are delineating martial classes similarly.

1+2) I don't like the division of the monk's abilities into two different mechanical subsystems.  I feel like the whole point of the monk is that he has a holistic approach to life:  his martial and his supernatural power are the same thing.  4E captured this very well with its full disciplines.

3) First of all, I'd like to see choices rather than predetermined ki abilities at certain levels.  Stunning fist and wholeness of body are classic monk abilities, and I have no objection to them, but I'd also like to see a lot more movement-related abilities, since to me running up walls, balancing on water, and at higher levels outright flying and teleporting are signatures of the pop-culture monk.

4) See 1+2.  And I don't like their specificity for unarmed combat.  Armed monks are also a thing.

5) See 1+2.

6) Generally, I kind of want to cut down on the "random little perks all over the class table".  Clear mind is I think important enough to the monk concept that all monks could justifiably get it all the time.  Purity of body should be an optional ki ability to cure diseases (their own or others').

7) Yeah, it's all right for Monk Classic.  I want to see an option for Str-based Brawny Monks, but that might require a subclass remathed and rebuilt from the ground up.

Conclusion:  Expand the ki system (or whatever you want to call it) so it can cover all or almost all of the monk's abilities.  Probably make it something other than a daily resource - ki is not supposed to "run out".  Don't screw over the unarmed monk, but don't screw over armed monks either.

Recommendation:  Dust off and refluff the incarnum system.  Soulmelds are "disciplines" rather than items.  Essentia points are ki points.
That said, I am more interested in having a unique fighter class than in spreading this very good mechanic around to other classes.

The only real difference between a Cleric and a Wizard, apart from combat math, is the spell list.  Maneuvers are delineating martial classes similarly.



I'm fairly confident that, if Cleric and Wizard were shown to us with only ~17 spells each, and more than 50% of those overlapped, with no difference in how "spellcasting" worked, we'd be seeing very, very similar "Too Samey" complaints.

Of course, 4e classes had (mostly) completely discrete lists of powers, and they were still "Too Samey" to many, because of the mechanical overlaps and lack of different in how "powers" worked.


EDIT: And again, I don't think Expertise+Maneuvers are really feeling any more like a "martial spell list" than 3e's "Base Attack Bonus + Feats".
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
My experience with XD has been quite the opposite.  There weren't many choices in my 3e fighters and rangers, the "full attack + feats" classes that you mention.  Whereas playing a fighter, every turn of every round I had to decide what I wanted to spend my XD on, and whether to use them on that turn or save them for later.

It's a way more deep and robust system than the 3e one, and describing it as just the same misses a ton of what XD have to offer.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

Those classes have had forty years to diverge.  Expertise has had about three months.
Build them all on the Expertise framework, and then screw with it within each class.  That's how we get rid of "samey".

I'm fairly confident that, if Cleric and Wizard were shown to us with only ~17 spells each, and more than 50% of those overlapped, with no difference in how "spellcasting" worked, we'd be seeing very, very similar "Too Samey" complaints.

Those classes have had forty years to diverge.  Expertise has had about three months.
Build them all on the Expertise framework, and then screw with it within each class.  That's how we get rid of "samey".
and whether to use them on that turn or save them for later.


This is the only real difference, though.  The rest effectively boils down to "Do I trade my damage for these other options?" with each attack - the "cousin" to 3e's "Do I trade my attack for these other options?" with each attack.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
1)  Do you like the choice to use Expertise Dice for the monk?  Why or why not?
Yes. I think ED as a martial resource is pretty cool....as long as they make each class' maneuvers feel unique enough. I did not think they succeeded in that for the Fighter and Rogue....but with the Monk, I'd say they made an excellent first draft.

2)  Do you like the implementation of daily resources for Ki uses?  Why or why not?
While the ED resource is great, it can be abused since it refreshes every round. Having a separate mechanic for things they don't want abused is a great solution. And not only does it prevent the abuse, but it also adds flavor and uniqueness to the monk.

3)  Do you feel that the abilities granted by Ki uses are appropriate?  What else would you like to see?
The Stunning Strike and Wholeness of Body are classic monk abilities. Ki does a good job with them. At higher levels, I expect to see Quivering Palm too. Also, extra Ki uses helps fill in some of those dead levels! Woo!

4)  Do you think the Monk-specific maneuvers do enough to capture the unique feel of a Monk?  Why or why not?  What other maneuvers would you like to see?
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">I like that they start off with both Flurry of Blows and Step of the Wind. This gives them extra attacks and extra movement (both very monk-like). I would, however like to see them gain more maneuvers more often. They only get an extra maneuver at 4, 7, and 10. So at 10th level, they only have 5 maneuvers.

All of the monk-specific maneuvers are very nice and flavorful. Hurricane Strike is wicked awesome. I love the "spend an extra ED to augment the maneuver" mechanic. I hope they update the Fighter and Rogue maneuvers to have simliar add-on features. (Sneak Attack + 1ED to also Hamstring, etc).


I'd like to see a wresting type monk-maneuver where he can choke a victim out (Con save to resist, or victim falls unconscious for x rounds).

I'd also like to see an improved disarm maneuver for the monk.

5)  Do you think the non-Monk-specific maneuvers are appropriate for the Monk?  Are there any you think should be added?
I'm not sure giving Monks Deadly Strike is good or not. I hoped that would be a fighter-only thing...but maybe Protect is the fighter thing (based on the G+ Hangout). Ditto for Mighty Exertion. I liked that Fighters were the "extra damage and feats of strength" guy. If they are going to open those maneuvers up to the general category, then they need more fighter-unique maneuvers.

6)  Do you like the passive abilities of the Monk?
Way of the Fist gives monks a d6 unarmed strike. I hope this increases to d8 at some higher level (10+). I don't think Deadly Strike should fill this void.
Monastic Training gives Monks training in 2 physical skills. Very nice.
Purity of Body: immune to disease. I assume this covers natural and magical? This is a classic monk ability.
Clear Mind: immune to charm/fear. Again a classic monk ability. It seems a lot of things are immune to charm and fear nowadays. I hope this isn't them being lazy.
Overall, the monk's passive abilities feel a lot like the monk I would expect...and since that's their goal, I'd say they succeeded.


7)  Do you like the implementation of AC for the Monk?
Add Dex and Wis mods to AC. Easy. Simple. Effective. Although, it does burden the monk to stat himself with high Dex and Wis. Int and Cha dump stats here we come! That said, it makes sense flavor-wise and doesn't break the game. Monks with high Dex AND Wis scores should be rewarded with a higher AC. They are, afterall, in the thick of it.

Additionally, I would have hoped to see some mechanical support for using "monk weapons". I've houseruled in the past that a monk can use his staff, spear, or kama as unarmed strikes. This was mostly cosmetic with the exception of using magical weapons. So even though monks BECOME magical weapons and magic items are supposed to be rare, I still hope they implement some mechanics to let monks take advantage of them. The easiest solution I see is to allow Flurry of Blows to activate with Monk-Weapons as well as unarmed strikes.

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And the 'cousin' to 4e's "Do I trade my damage for these other options" with each attack.

It's like having a 4e encounter power every round.  Only you get to decide what you want that power to be halfway through the round, even changing your mind multiple times potentially.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
1+2) I don't like the division of the monk's abilities into two different mechanical subsystems.  I feel like the whole point of the monk is that he has a holistic approach to life:  his martial and his supernatural power are the same thing.  4E captured this very well with its full disciplines.

3) First of all, I'd like to see choices rather than predetermined ki abilities at certain levels.  Stunning fist and wholeness of body are classic monk abilities, and I have no objection to them, but I'd also like to see a lot more movement-related abilities, since to me running up walls, balancing on water, and at higher levels outright flying and teleporting are signatures of the pop-culture monk.



I feel like you're confusing flavor and mechanics. The class doesn't say their martial and supernatural powers come from different sources. In fact, they can augment their maneuvers to become magical effects. I read that as Ki all the way.

They basically have at-will and daily powers, both from the same power source. Mechanically they are on different recharge timers, but flavor-wise they are powered from the same source (Ki). I like them on separate recharge timers from both a mechanical and a flavor point of view. It prevents abuse, for one, and also really drives home that some abilities require a lot of "energy" to perform. That energy needs to recharge before it can be used again.

Also, what more movement-related abilities do you want? Have you read Step of the Wind? There's your running up walls and walking on water. All monks get it. It's awesome! I suppose at higher levels (10+) Step of the Wind could also allow for flying and teleporting, though I personally don't want that in my monk.

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@Mand12

I really do love XD. They do everything you say they do.

I just feel the experience was cheapened when it moved to thief and cheapened further now it's on monk as well.

I would be ecstatic if D&D Next would have more than 2-3 great ideas. So far we're seeing the innovations repeated until the bloom is off the rose.

I'd like to see an expanded Ki mechanic.

-Brad



1. The expertise dice seem to work very well... But I am still hesitant implementing it in all martial classes that we see - because it could have the effect of pigeonholing all martial classes into expertise dice rather than seeing some other really interesting mechanics. Something along the lines of what Mike said.

The monk uses expertise dice, but I'm going to admit that I have a misgiving about using expertise overall.


2. I love the Ki. They feel about right, I just can't wait to see more options for them.

3,4,5. I haven't really looked much into the maneuvers. With a sweeping glance, they look really good. But see above about what I think about it all together.

6. Love the passive abilities, they feel a lot like the monk should - also they filled out those 'dead' levels the class advancement table now makes it look like you are gaining more and more things. I'd like to see things like this for other classes as well. This was definitely the designers listening to our feedback. Well done :D

7. Love the Wis and Dex to AC... but it has the potential to become very powerful, maybe the lesser of the two scores must be restricted at a specific number, or something.
1)  Do you like the choice to use Expertise Dice for the monk?  Why or why not?

Yes and no. I agree with Mearls' initial comment that he's not 100% happy with throwing expertise dice at so many classes, but the way it's implemented with the maneuvers really clicks. The fact that it doesn't power all of the monk's abilities makes it work for me and the maneuvers are so interesting that I'm not really interested in harping on about expertise dice overuse. It works here, broader considerations aside.


2)  Do you like the implementation of daily resources for Ki uses?  Why or why not?

Yes. Love it. Monks should be part mystic, part warrior, part rogue. Having multiple resource systems on a single class really allows for some serious awesome. Ki captures the feel of the mystic and also allows for the resources to interact and expand in fun ways.


3)  Do you feel that the abilities granted by Ki uses are appropriate?  What else would you like to see?

They're appropriate but I don't think it makes proper use of the resource. I'd like to see more use abilities (I'm only reading stunning fist... am I just not seeing something?) such as a minor heal (lay on hands or wholeness of body) and maybe options to deliver other conditions with ki energy. I'd also like the option of using ki energy to augment specific maneuvers. Perhaps the passives could depend on having some of your ki available? Might be too harsh but it's a thematically interesting idea to give the monk a choice between passive immunities or active augments to their actions.


4)  Do you think the Monk-specific maneuvers do enough to capture the unique feel of a Monk?  Why or why not?  What other maneuvers would you like to see?

Yeah totally. The names are a good start, most of them really provide images for me to latch onto and it gives a really monastic feel. The mobility is exactly what I envision.


Flurry falls a bit flat, I think. I know they don't want to overpower things with a lot of attacks but I don't really see how flurry is that different from deadly strike - apart from its utility against weenie mobs that you're probably not that concerned about to begin with. I'd prefer flurry to be the monk's go-to maneuver for extra damage and leave deadly strike in the court of the fighter. Add in the uncertainty of extra attack rolls and deadly strike is just hands-down better. My inclination would be to allow flurry's damage potental to be higher than deadly stirke's because there is a chance those attacks can miss.


Hurricane strike looks like a lot of fun. I'll have to mess around with it to really give a lot of feedback but I like the look of it.


As for the rest.. yeah I can dig it.


5)  Do you think the non-Monk-specific maneuvers are appropriate for the Monk?  Are there any you think should be added?

Yes because they are a hybrid sort of class. I'd prefer them to have more rogue-like things. Mighty exertion seems particularly out of place and I've all ready said what I think about deadly strike.


6)  Do you like the passive abilities of the Monk?

I do. I mentioned it might be cool to tie them into the ki resource a bit but it's just icing. The abilities as listed are exactly what I'd expect and they don't give a lot of back talk, which is probably better in the long run.


7)  Do you like the implementation of AC for the Monk?


Yeah, keep 'em unarmoured. They could trade it for a passive bonus to AC based on level but to be honest it's pretty clear to me that the monk is meant to want wis but dex is going to be their main thing. Still, I'd not touch the monk with a wis lower than 16 and a dex that's probably higher than that. Could be an issue there.



The MAD concern is real, particularly because the ki powers are all wisdom based and offer a fairly limited number of uses/day, which means you couldn't be a pure mystic monk with this version of the monk... that's disappointing. I would like a choice in styles that offered abilities that are more roguey, fighterly or mystical. That would help address MAD because it'd narrow the scope of the character a bit, but I'm not sure that'd be enough.


Problem is, it's totally appropriate for the monk to want wis and dex.

1. The expertise dice seem to work very well... But I am still hesitant implementing it in all martial classes that we see - because it could have the effect of pigeonholing all martial classes into expertise dice rather than seeing some other really interesting mechanics.


I'm one of the people who sees a lot of parallels to spells.  Whether you're a bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, or wizard, the spell mechanic is still the same.  I don't think calling that "pigeonholing" casters into spells is accurate.

Now, don't get me wrong, I absolutely think that developing more mechanics is a great thing to do.  But the question is whether they can compete with XD, as a mechanic.  Just being different isn't enough, they have to be as good or better.

XD is a phenomenally powerful mechanic, with enormous potential.  A huge variety of subsystems and structures can be created within it. 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
3)  Do you feel that the abilities granted by Ki uses are appropriate?  What else would you like to see?

They're appropriate but I don't think it makes proper use of the resource. I'd like to see more use abilities (I'm only reading stunning fist... am I just not seeing something?) such as a minor heal (lay on hands or wholeness of body) and maybe options to deliver other conditions with ki energy. I'd also like the option of using ki energy to augment specific maneuvers. Perhaps the passives could depend on having some of your ki available? Might be too harsh but it's a thematically interesting idea to give the monk a choice between passive immunities or active augments to their actions.





Level 5: Wholeness of Body
As an action, you can expend a use of your ki to magically regain hit points equal to your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.

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Make 5e Saving Throws better using Ramzour's Six Ability Save System!

 

Giving classes iconic abilities that don't break the game: Ramzour's Class Defining Ability system.

Rules for a simple non-XP based leveling up system, using the Proficiency Bonus

 

Level 5: Wholeness of Body
As an action, you can expend a use of your ki to magically regain hit points equal to your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.


haha doh! I'd kinda like everything to be listed on the table. Makes it easier.
Level 5: Wholeness of Body
As an action, you can expend a use of your ki to magically regain hit points equal to your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.


haha doh! I'd kinda like everything to be listed on the table. Makes it easier.



I missed it at first too, but looking back on it both are under a big heading label "LEVEL 1: KI"....so we're probably just too excited with all this delicious new rules loot. =)

BTW, I like your idea that Ki could potentially be used to augment maneuvers.

Also, agreed that Flurry is weaker than Deadly Strike because of the extra "miss" factors. Though I'm inclined to say that was RAI. They WANT the fighter to be superior. Which of course, this begs wth question: why do Monks have Deadly Strike at all then? Oh well, this is a rough draft anyway.

Also, what is MAD?

Please introduce yourself to the new D&D 5e forums in this very friendly thread started by Pukunui!

 

Make 5e Saving Throws better using Ramzour's Six Ability Save System!

 

Giving classes iconic abilities that don't break the game: Ramzour's Class Defining Ability system.

Rules for a simple non-XP based leveling up system, using the Proficiency Bonus

 

XD is a phenomenally powerful mechanic, with enormous potential.  A huge variety of subsystems and structures can be created within it. 

Right, but we havn't seen them play with it at all.

XD as an mixed at-will and encounter resource for instance.  Get some per round, and get more by spending ki points for extra dice.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Flurry is weaker in straight-up DPR, but it is stronger in certain situations when you might want to attack more than one target, which DS can't do. 

MAD = multiple ability dependency.  Though I disagree that "two" means "multiple."  Two is the right number of abilities that should be encouraged by a class.  One is too few, three is too many.  3e monks were at like five, and it was really awful.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
BTW, I like your idea that Ki could potentially be used to augment maneuvers.

Also, agreed that Flurry is weaker than Deadly Strike because of the extra "miss" factors. Though I'm inclined to say that was RAI. They WANT the fighter to be superior. Which of course, this begs wth question: why do Monks have Deadly Strike at all then? Oh well, this is a rough draft anyway.

Also, what is MAD?



I don't mind if the fighter is more reliable, but I think reliability comes at the price of spike. Like the rogue's sneak attack should be spike incarnate but very unreliable in my mind, flurry's misses means that if they hit 2/3 hits, they'll do roughly as much as deadly strike would and they're allowed the potential of doing a reasonable amount more with 3/3 hits. Bounded accuracy should actually make this play right and the monk doing a 3 attack flurry should expect one of those attacks to miss. Anyway that's just my take on the relationship between classes and damage potential... probably not what they're thinking.


MAD is multiple attribute distribution.. basically the fact that wis is every bit as important as dex, which requires you to split your attention between the two.


edit: hehe multiple ability dependency.. yeah that. :D

I'm getting a few ideas of how to possibly expand the ki mechanic to include the maneuvers (little to no change to the maneuvers just in the way they are accessed), and have a somewhat suitable subclass optionality, such as drunken master, or monasticly taught, or street fighter.  Possibly even with those sub classes holding the alignment suggestions as well.  Basic premise is that the exp die version with daily ki is one of the sub class optionalities, another being that one of the subclasses drops the ki usage to round by round spending it a lot like expertise dice to activate maneuvers,  another makes it an encounter refresh (ten minutes of meditation).  Just putting basic ideas down for now so I remember this when I get home from work and can actually fill in the idea. (may not be till late tonight).
XD is a phenomenally powerful mechanic, with enormous potential.  A huge variety of subsystems and structures can be created within it. 

Right, but we havn't seen them play with it at all.

XD as an mixed at-will and encounter resource for instance.  Get some per round, and get more by spending ki points for extra dice.


Well, they're starting to.  They're going slowly, testing the water with each step, making sure they don't break things going too quickly.  I can't fault them for that.

The new monk maneuvers are a step in the right direction.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
1)  Do you like the choice to use Expertise Dice for the monk?  Why or why not?

Meh. This sounds like powers all over again. Give the same thing to every class to balance, making classes clones. Dice were a nice idea for fighters (and maybe a special gish class), not other classes.

Plus there is the action paralysis multiplied over many classes, plus the number of dices needed to be rolled plus the book keeping on dices spent. 

It'S getting clearer where 5e is going. 


Sorry, "I hit it with my sword" being the entire possible extent of a character isn't coming back.  Deal with it.

If you really want that, then you ignore this expertise dice business and call it a damage bonus. 

You don't, however, get to ruin the mechanic for the rest of us because you don't like it.

Oh, and how was "I hit it with my sword" being the entire possbile extent of about six classes in the 3e PHB not "making classes clones" ?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Flurry is weaker in straight-up DPR, but it is stronger in certain situations when you might want to attack more than one target, which DS can't do.  



Yeah I get it, I just don't like it. I want the monk to flurry all the time. I want the fighter to use deadly strike all the time. I don't want the monk to use deadly strike any more than I want the fighter to flurry.


For me, flurry should be rebalanced so it reliably delivers roughly the same damage as deadly strike, but its miss potential allows it to spike a bit more.

Why do you have an attachment to deadly strike as a Fighter-defining thing?

Extra damage seems like the most generic thing possible.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Why do you have an attachment to deadly strike as a Fighter-defining thing?

Extra damage seems like the most generic thing possible.


Because it makes the classes feel different. And flurry will out of necessity function differently from deadly strike just like a sneak attack should(doesn't right now) function differently from deadly strike. The fighter's single target damage will be really reliable, but vs multiple targets they'll be relying on other things while the monk will be working differently. It's subtle but it leads to pretty big changes in how they play - like the people I play with who use two weapon fighting or flurry-like mechanics always make sure they're positioned such that they threaten more than one dude in case they drop someone. Guys who focus on one big attack aren't so concerned about that; they just hit the one guy.

Expertise dice are a cool means of access to a list of abilities. I don't mind classes sharing that means of access but I do mind if they share the list more than is absolutely necessary. It's a common sentiment, really. Nothing unsual here, I just want each class to have its own go-to "more damage" move that encourages them to play in ways that are different from each other.

Flurry is weaker in straight-up DPR, but it is stronger in certain situations when you might want to attack more than one target, which DS can't do.

Dice get recharged at the end of your turn so Deadly strike is just more hit and miss then flurry, the total damage is the same.  You actually get more crit chances, and with the bonus crit damage it's actually stronger.  At least till you factor in fighter's 2nd attacks.

Also, since it's deadly strike + whirlwind attack in one, it's better still.

And finally, flurry is affected more by resist and vulnerability.  But that's a wash.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

And the 'cousin' to 4e's "Do I trade my damage for these other options" with each attack.


The "Add more options to the 'menu', and get more to spend per round" aspect of it still feels far more like 3e's system to me - a refinement, certainly (hell, just moving it from attack to damage is a huge step), but I can't shake the similarities.  (It doens't help that the Fighter is getting "new maneuvers" at the same levels he was getting bonus feats in 3e, nor that many of the maneuvers themselves use the same names as 3e combat feats.)

It's an impression I get - really not much more to it.


Where my unease with it comes in, is more with the Fighter.  The "menu and budget to spend each round" works fine - but having the Fighter's whole schtick be "the same thing as all these other classes, but he has a few more/different menu options, and/or a larger budget to spend" was what made my players (and myself) just absolutely lose more and more interested in the class as we continued playing.

Right now the Fighter has 5 "unique" options out of 17 maneuvers (the rest are shared with either Monk or Rogue or both): Cleave, Glancing Blow, Great Fortitude, Protect, and Volley.  If this trend continues, and we see Barbarians, Rangers, and/or Paladins with Expertise, do we really expect them to not poach those maneuvers too?

A "universal fighting system", when paired with the "Fighters Fight" mentality, just seems to leave the Fighter as "the class that uses the universal fighting system".  Why does the Fighter even exist, then?

The "problem" really is just the Fighter class - it has about as much of a place within a "universal fighting system" as a Spellcaster (just Spellcaster) class would within the "universal spellcasting system".
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
Right now the Fighter has 5 "unique" options out of 17 maneuvers (the rest are shared with either Monk or Rogue or both): Cleave, Glancing Blow, Great Fortitude, Protect, and Volley.  If this trend continues, and we see Barbarians, Rangers, and/or Paladins with Expertise, do we really expect them to not poach those maneuvers too?



Precisely why I'd rather monks not get deadly strike at all. If they need a damage vehicle that offers the same reliability, then allow flurry's damage potential to be higher so it can cover misses. I'm not 100% sure if that's even necessary but that'd be the move to make instead of just drop deadly strike in the monk's lap.


I should make it clear that I don't mind if deadly strike, flurry, or sneak attack are given to more than one class - far from it. I just don't think deadly strike is a good pick for the monk in terms of play style as well as flavour.

Why do you have an attachment to deadly strike as a Fighter-defining thing?

Extra damage seems like the most generic thing possible.


Because it makes the classes feel different. And flurry will out of necessity function differently from deadly strike just like a sneak attack should(doesn't right now) function differently from deadly strike. The fighter's single target damage will be really reliable, but vs multiple targets they'll be relying on other things while the monk will be working differently. It's subtle but it leads to pretty big changes in how they play - like the people I play with who use two weapon fighting or flurry-like mechanics always make sure they're positioned such that they threaten more than one dude in case they drop someone. Guys who focus on one big attack aren't so concerned about that; they just hit the one guy.

Expertise dice are a cool means of access to a list of abilities. I don't mind classes sharing that means of access but I do mind if they share the list more than is absolutely necessary. It's a common sentiment, really. Nothing unsual here, I just want each class to have its own go-to "more damage" move that encourages them to play in ways that are different from each other.


But why is deadly strike the thing that must be fighter-only?  Why can't they have other, different things, in addition to deadly strike?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Right now the Fighter has 5 "unique" options out of 17 maneuvers (the rest are shared with either Monk or Rogue or both): Cleave, Glancing Blow, Great Fortitude, Protect, and Volley.  If this trend continues, and we see Barbarians, Rangers, and/or Paladins with Expertise, do we really expect them to not poach those maneuvers too?.


No, I don't expect them to not poach some of the maneuvers.

But I also don't expect that the Fighter maneuver list is final.  I expect them to get a similar treatment that the Monk got, with unique, fighter-defining maneuvers.

I see no reason to hate on expertise dice just because they might screw up the fighter.  It's like shooting off your foot so you can't stub your toe.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
But why is deadly strike the thing that must be fighter-only?  Why can't they have other, different things, in addition to deadly strike?



I don't think it fits the monk. I don't like that flurry, which is their signiture move - the one thing they've always had - is sidelined in favour of a maneuver that fighters have. The monk shouldn't play like a fighter. Deadly strike is the fighter's most basic maneuver and the monk isn't a brute force warrior.


I actually think the monk's version of a "deadly" strike would be a ki maneuver that kills the target outright. That'd feel way more like a D&D monk. I know that not all martial arts are created equal but based on D&D's particular brand of martial arts that's been around for years and years, deadly strike as written ain't it.

I don't think monks should get deadly strike.  They already have flurry, and that's basicly the same.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.