5MWD, why is this an issue?

I've seen alot of threads about this but not one have a seen a good reason why its an issue, maybe I've been playing wrong but every since I started playing back in high school two things have always been true to keep this from being an issue

1) Its essentially up to the DM in most cases

2) It's impossible to get a full 8 hours of sleep in a hostile area.

These 2 rules (mainly the second one) make the 5 Minute work day a non-issue

IMAGE(http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo93/Failedlegend/Failedlegend-1-3.jpg?t=1290703254) D&D Online

I don't actually understand why everyone's so up in arms about it either. It's never been an issue for me or mine.
It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.
It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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Star Wars Minis has a home here http://www.bloomilk.com/ and Star Wars Saga Edition RPG has a home here http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/index.php
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
It isn't. The whole thing's overemphasized.
It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.



Why should i discard my current time and money investment in rules there works for me and that I am fond of (3.5) in order to get a fix for something there is not broken for me in order to house rule it back to what it was
Probably this should be fixed the same way we're told everything else in 5e is going to be fixed: present a list of options for the DM to pick from, one of them being "nothing". Then offer some guidance about what methods are better suited to what and stress that if they're not experiencing a problem then there's no need to worry about a system.
I've seen alot of threads about this but not one have a seen a good reason why its an issue, maybe I've been playing wrong but every since I started playing back in high school two things have always been true to keep this from being an issue

1) Its essentially up to the DM in most cases

2) It's impossible to get a full 8 hours of sleep in a hostile area.

These 2 rules (mainly the second one) make the 5 Minute work day a non-issue




Why a new thread? 
These issues are covered in the existing thread over and over again. 

1) The DM generally has to house-rule or story-craft to force the players into not resting when it would be most advantageous.  Mostly, they do it almost unconsciously  e.g.  "No of course you can't go back to sleep, it's 9am and you're still on full adrenaline from that fight! You'd never relax."  But in extreme cases they may resort to in-game punishment (yes they found your Rope Trick planar pocket and you're being attacked! a-Ha!) or craft campaigns that work on a compressed timeline ..  These games can be a lot of fun (Imagine playing in a game based on the TV Series 24. Although I'd expect that campaign would not feature any vancian casters) - but games where the timeline is at the players discretion, the 5MWD may rear it's head. 

2) There are many ways to circumvent sleeping in hostile areas.  Rope Trick, Leomunds Hut, Solace Bole,  Teleporting back to Town, etc.  There were even spells in previous editions that allowed a full rest to occur in less time, such as "Nap" (Cleric, 2nd edition)..   These are all system-supported rules to allow for "hassle-free resting".   It's as if the designers realized that the precipitous drop of the casters effectiveness needed patching.  :D

 
It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.



Why should i discard my current time and money investment in rules there works for me and that I am fond of (3.5) in order to get a fix for something there is not broken for me in order to house rule it back to what it was


Apart from your incredibly confusing sentence structure, if you aren't interested in buying a new system then why are you on the 5e boards in discussions? If yiou have no interest in the product then you probably have no interest in seeing it succeed.

Or, why should you invest your valuable time in posting on a forum for a game you will not get in the hopes of getting a masive company to listen to you.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
Show
Star Wars Minis has a home here http://www.bloomilk.com/ and Star Wars Saga Edition RPG has a home here http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/index.php
Show
141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.



Why should i discard my current time and money investment in rules there works for me and that I am fond of (3.5) in order to get a fix for something there is not broken for me in order to house rule it back to what it was



Why discard your current time and money investment for new rules anyway?  Whether they work or not?  You've already got a product you're invested in.  It's highly unlikely even a 'perfect' game could entice you to purchase it.  You've already made it abundantly clear in every thread you've participated in that 5e won't be getting your money. 

nope
Rope trick is only 1 hour per level in 3.5 and when you are at level 8 is it not difficult to face enemies there can easily spot it and setup an ambush
Additionally, you can not bring bags of holding into a rope trick. That is, rope trick is not an option i have ever bothered using as a wizard

Leomunds tiny hut, well, it does not prevent your resting place from being spotted and attacked. You do after all have to choose a colour for the opaque sphere that is, a good chance it can be spotted by someone having a spot modifier and if that fails someone having track feat or someone using detect magic
So a 3rd thread on the same exact issue..........

Ok (taken from a blog): 

"In the old editions of D&D, as well as in D&D Next, spellcasters work fundamentally different from non-spellcasters. Spellcasters have powerful limited resources, non-spellcasters have a more constant damage output. Imagine a fight in which both a wizard and a fighter are both always using their best possible damage output. Now you plot their total damage output over number of rounds. What you get is the wizard starting off much stronger than the fighter, but then running out of spells and after X round being reduced to a rather low damage output. The fighter has a nearly constant damage output round after round, so in the first rounds he looks weak compared to the wizard, but in a longer fight he actually deals more damage than the wizard.

The problem pops up when the group has finished a fight and the DM asks them what they want to do next: The spellcasters will want to recharge their power, by having whatever the editions equivalent of "a night's rest" is. Thus the five-minute workday, if you count it on the in-game time scale."

Basically it's the desire of the player (which is shackled to a limited resource) that wants to participate every round in a way that's significant and iconic of the class they represent. The most traditional class that's tied to the 5MWD problem is the Wizard. Clerics are in there too but they get armor and better weapons (also better attacks and HP) and thus, can contribute in a more non-magical way. All it boils down to is a lack of desire or want to be stuck with heavy resource management.

What 4E did was put everyone on the same resource management level and allow ways to still contribute to an adventure by allowing At-Will and Encounter powers. At-Wills being the go-to for your round-to-round stuff and Encounters providing a bit of "BANG" every now and then. Daily powers (along with equipment) were often very strong to signify the resource used.


As for why it's a problem? It's because people like playing magical classes but back in the day they were stuck with Vancian-style casting as the main way magic. This automatically put you into a resource management position whether you wanted to or not. So what the players would do is blow all their spells, be SUPER AWESOME for a battle or two and then ask to call it a day for a deterined time (6-8 hours of undisturbed rest). Other players, who's resources were mitigated by Ammo or Hit Points and weren't down much in either would get mad because they would want to press onward through the story. 

Was this a problem in my games pre-4E? Not really as most spellcasters instantly went with Spontaneous Casting classes (ie. Sorcerer or Warlock) or took Reserve Feats when those were produced in an attempt to rein in the 5MWD problem. But just because some people never felt it was a problem does't mean the problem didn't exist.
It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.



Why should i discard my current time and money investment in rules there works for me and that I am fond of (3.5) in order to get a fix for something there is not broken for me in order to house rule it back to what it was



Why discard your current time and money investment for new rules anyway?  Whether they work or not?  You've already got a product you're invested in.  It's highly unlikely even a 'perfect' game could entice you to purchase it.  You've already made it abundantly clear in every thread you've participated in that 5e won't be getting your money. 




Well, it is a question of debate fairness to point out, that WOTC would not win any extra sales to me if they listened to my wishes since it is highly unlikely they can make a product i would like to buy
It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.



Why should i discard my current time and money investment in rules there works for me and that I am fond of (3.5) in order to get a fix for something there is not broken for me in order to house rule it back to what it was



Why discard your current time and money investment for new rules anyway?  Whether they work or not?  You've already got a product you're invested in.  It's highly unlikely even a 'perfect' game could entice you to purchase it.  You've already made it abundantly clear in every thread you've participated in that 5e won't be getting your money. 




Well, it is a question of debate fairness to point out, that WOTC would not win any extra sales to me if they listened to my wishes since it is highly unlikely they can make a product i would like to buy


Is English your first language? I'm curious given how highly you rated your intelligence.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
Show
Star Wars Minis has a home here http://www.bloomilk.com/ and Star Wars Saga Edition RPG has a home here http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/index.php
Show
141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.



Why should i discard my current time and money investment in rules there works for me and that I am fond of (3.5) in order to get a fix for something there is not broken for me in order to house rule it back to what it was


Apart from your incredibly confusing sentence structure, if you aren't interested in buying a new system then why are you on the 5e boards in discussions? If yiou have no interest in the product then you probably have no interest in seeing it succeed.

Or, why should you invest your valuable time in posting on a forum for a game you will not get in the hopes of getting a masive company to listen to you.



Well, I like to point out problems and potential solutions to them in online debates, but it seems the danish politicans are on the right track at the moment in implementing necessary reforms to improve fiscal health and company competiveness, that is, I need to find some other debates instead of newspaper blog debates since those are a bit boring at the moment.

It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.



Why should i discard my current time and money investment in rules there works for me and that I am fond of (3.5) in order to get a fix for something there is not broken for me in order to house rule it back to what it was



Why discard your current time and money investment for new rules anyway?  Whether they work or not?  You've already got a product you're invested in.  It's highly unlikely even a 'perfect' game could entice you to purchase it.  You've already made it abundantly clear in every thread you've participated in that 5e won't be getting your money. 




Well, it is a question of debate fairness to point out, that WOTC would not win any extra sales to me if they listened to my wishes since it is highly unlikely they can make a product i would like to buy


Is English your first language? I'm curious given how highly you rated your intelligence.



Nope, mother language is danish, english is a second language I am using a lot since almost all my university study books were in english, most work documents has been in english and i have a chinese wife, that is, we communicate in english.
nope
Rope trick is only 1 hour per level in 3.5 and when you are at level 8 is it not difficult to face enemies there can easily spot it and setup an ambush
Additionally, you can not bring bags of holding into a rope trick. That is, rope trick is not an option i have ever bothered using as a wizard

Leomunds tiny hut, well, it does not prevent your resting place from being spotted and attacked. You do after all have to choose a colour for the opaque sphere that is, a good chance it can be spotted by someone having a spot modifier and if that fails someone having track feat or someone using detect magic



Actually, you make a good point regarding the potency of the "free resting" options. 
Generally, the lowest levels have the fewest of those options.  At 1 hour per level, you can't really use Rope Trick until 8th level for completely hassle-free resting.  As the PCs get more powerful, the options for resting "free" become greater.  So, yes, Rope Trick isn't much of a solution at 3rd level, but by 9th level it's pretty handy.  At 13th level, Mordenkainens Magnificent Mansion is pretty much home-away-from-home.  

The worst part about this is that the lowest levels have some of the greatest "need" for resting compared with the higher levels.  At 1st level, a 2nd edition Wizard has a couple of spells, and so if the days' combats go for more than 3 rounds, he's going to be missing with a lot of darts.  He's going to want to rest between each combat simply so that he doesn't suck (not just to be "full power" -- simply to not be useless) 

By the time that Wizards can get the Mansion, they're often capable of winning a combat with a couple of their 20 spells for that day, and so their _need_ to use that  to recover between each fight is a lot less. 

It's sort of ironic, really.

As an aside, the rules regarding how much rest is required have changed per edition, and this has a major effect on the 5MWD.  IIRC, in 2nd edition the amount of "study" required was dependant on the spell levels being memorized. So if you only used a couple of your spells, it didn't take that long to re-memorize them --unless you're a really high level caster and then re-memorizing your whole spell alotment required nearly a whole day! .  In 3rd, I think it was codified that everyone had to have 8 hours of actual sleep, and spell memorization only required 1 hour for all your spells.. By 4th edition, it was only 6 hours (4 for some races) and there were rules regarding how often you could benefit from it. -- So only 1 extended rest per 24 hour period, IIRC.  

IMO, the 4th edition approach had the best balance between dramatic tension and party effectiveness across a day.  
It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.



He doesn't need to house rule something that isn't broken. 
Yes spell caster dominance is not something he wants to sacrefice... (I really dont know what mechanics he thinks are being sacreficed)
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.



He doesn't need to house rule something that isn't broken. 



Heh, 3 separate threads on the same topic say otherwise.



Anyways, where I feel the problem (if people are having one in their games) starts is with a class that is fully, 100%, daily resource dependant. One of the reasons they implemented the Spontaneous spellcasting in 3E (ala Sorcerer) was to create an alternative spellcasting style so people didn't have to go Vancian with their Magic-User. But what was the compromise? Well Sorcerers have to spend a full-round when casting a Metamagic spells and they get nothing for class features outside the Familiar. If you remove these restrictions, give the Sorcerer bonus feats at every 5th level and the class becomes a better option than Wizards (why else would they implement the restrictions in the first place?). That says something about Vancian casting in my book.


As an aside, the rules regarding how much rest is required have changed per edition, and this has a major effect on the 5MWD.  IIRC, in 2nd edition the amount of "study" required was dependant on the spell levels being memorized. So if you only used a couple of your spells, it didn't take that long to re-memorize them --unless you're a really high level caster and then re-memorizing your whole spell alotment required nearly a whole day! .  In 3rd, I think it was codified that everyone had to have 8 hours of actual sleep, and spell memorization only required 1 hour for all your spells.. By 4th edition, it was only 6 hours (4 for some races) and there were rules regarding how often you could benefit from it. -- So only 1 extended rest per 24 hour period, IIRC.  

IMO, the 4th edition approach had the best balance between dramatic tension and party effectiveness across a day.  



I am playing with the following rule In my 3.5 games:

Only new spells once per 24 hours, that is, if you started the day at 8.th in the morning will it first be 24 hours later including the 8.th hour rest before you can memorize new spells.

To my mind, all these threads are missing the point.  Can a DM prevent 5mwd?  Yes.  Can he do so consistently, without being heavy handed or unreasonable or constantly holding a ticking time bomb in front of the players, in any setting and campaign type he chooses to run?  Probably, although it would be quite taxing on creative resources I think are better spent elsewhere.  The real problem, for me at least, is the swinginess it creates.

Sometimes, it just makes sense to have a one encounter day.  I'm personally not a fan of having combat for combat's sake, so if the story only demands one encounter for today's challenge I don't want to have to put in two more just to soak up a few party resources.  At other times, it makes sense to have an endless string of encounters as wave after wave of bad guys storm the walls or you adventure deep into the heart of a dangerous dungeon.  The real problem that I have with the 5mwd, is that on those days when you have only one encounter (not necessarily because the party pulled some cheap trick or cajoled the DM into letting them, but because it made sense to only have one), that encounter has to be tremendously huge to challenge the party, and the wizard massively outshines the fighter.  On those days where it makes sense to have a huge number of encounters, the wizard quickly becomes bored because all he's got is a crossbow he stinks with or some at-wills that barely chip the finish on the bad guy's armor (because they don't scale with level).  Moreover, each of those encounters has to be pathetically easy or you get a TPK.  

Can a DM who knows about all of this balance combats accordingly so that the day is appropriately challenging either way, and prevent excessive resting so that the encounter/day mix means the fighter's boredom on short days is equal to the wizards' on long days?  Yes.  But it's very easy to get it wrong, and I'd rather nobody ever be bored than that everyone has an equal share of boredom.  That is the 5mwd problem, and it isn't something that can be fixed consistently even by an experienced DM.  

(BTW, I'm not suggesting that every encounter needs to be perfectly balanced to be a tough but surmountable challenge.  Rather I'm suggesting that the DM should be able to decide when a fight will be tough but surmountable, easy, or impossible, and have that expectation be born out more often than not)

I never even knew what the term "5 minute work day" referred to until I started looking at these threads. It mystifies me that this is such an issue 'cause it's totally new to me.


To be honest, I think the reason there's so much discussion going on about it is because people amplify small things on forums and make them big problems in discussion. There seems to be a tendency to assume logical extremes in these discussions that simply don't ever happen.


Maybe someone occasionally runs into a problem with this, but that doesn't mean we need a whole mechanic to handle it. As for the spell caster having powerful abilities that diminish as they're used vs a non caster having consistent options all day, why is that such a big deal? They're two distinct play styles and the game is allowing for both. This is a good thing.


The best way to address it is to supply the DM with options on resting and encourage them to pick one that suits their campaign. That way people who feel they need to address it can do and those of us who don't want to house rule around rules we feel are unnecessary don't have to.


Now, everybody just take their prozac and agree to disagree.

Seems to me there are 2 very different philosophies:

There are those there say all encounters should be DPS balanced and
There are those there say it does not matter as long as the average of many encounters looks balanced in the generated amount of fun and awesomeness.

It is possible this can no longer be handled within the same set of game mechanics
It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.



He doesn't need to house rule something that isn't broken. 


I never suggested that, obviously. I'm saying he should houserule over a rule that gets rid of the 5MWD.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
Show
Star Wars Minis has a home here http://www.bloomilk.com/ and Star Wars Saga Edition RPG has a home here http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/index.php
Show
141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)

I never even knew what the term "5 minute work day" referred to until I started looking at these threads. It mystifies me that this is such an issue 'cause it's totally new to me.


To be honest, I think the reason there's so much discussion going on about it is because people amplify small things on forums and make them big problems in discussion. There seems to be a tendency to assume logical extremes in these discussions that simply don't ever happen.


Maybe someone occasionally runs into a problem with this, but that doesn't mean we need a whole mechanic to handle it. As for the spell caster having powerful abilities that diminish as they're used vs a non caster having consistent options all day, why is that such a big deal? They're two distinct play styles and the game is allowing for both. This is a good thing.


The best way to address it is to supply the DM with options on resting and encourage them to pick one that suits their campaign. That way people who feel they need to address it can do and those of us who don't want to house rule around rules we feel are unnecessary don't have to.


Now, everybody just take their prozac and agree to disagree.




Whilst I agree with your entire statement I think you are asking to much from the topic of 5mwd.  Obviously since they have resolved the issue in the previous two threads of a combined length of well over two hundred pages, this thread will probably be able to solve it once and for all.
It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.



He doesn't need to house rule something that isn't broken. 


I never suggested that, obviously. I'm saying he should houserule over a rule that gets rid of the 5MWD.



The proposed mechanical solutions (in the thread with those) to handle 5mwd for those there have it is basically such major changes to game mechanics that it is major rework to house rule the changes away, that is, it is simply to much work to buy 5E and get rules there work at my gaming table.

It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.



He doesn't need to house rule something that isn't broken. 



Heh, 3 separate threads on the same topic say otherwise.



And not once has anyone shown it to be a mechanics issue.  They claim it, but the facts indicate otherwise.  Were it a mechanics issue, it would happen in each and every game that used those mechanics.  It doesn't. 

Anyways, where I feel the problem (if people are having one in their games) starts is with a class that is fully, 100%, daily resource dependant. One of the reasons they implemented the Spontaneous spellcasting in 3E (ala Sorcerer) was to create an alternative spellcasting style so people didn't have to go Vancian with their Magic-User. But what was the compromise? Well Sorcerers have to spend a full-round when casting a Metamagic spells and they get nothing for class features outside the Familiar. If you remove these restrictions, give the Sorcerer bonus feats at every 5th level and the class becomes a better option than Wizards (why else would they implement the restrictions in the first place?). That says something about Vancian casting in my book.



What is says is that there were broken spells ;)
It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.



He doesn't need to house rule something that isn't broken. 


I never suggested that, obviously. I'm saying he should houserule over a rule that gets rid of the 5MWD.



Why would they change the actual rules when this is not a mechanical problem?
Oh look...this thread again...Woohoo.

I never even knew what the term "5 minute work day" referred to until I started looking at these threads. It mystifies me that this is such an issue 'cause it's totally new to me.


To be honest, I think the reason there's so much discussion going on about it is because people amplify small things on forums and make them big problems in discussion. There seems to be a tendency to assume logical extremes in these discussions that simply don't ever happen.


Maybe someone occasionally runs into a problem with this, but that doesn't mean we need a whole mechanic to handle it. As for the spell caster having powerful abilities that diminish as they're used vs a non caster having consistent options all day, why is that such a big deal? They're two distinct play styles and the game is allowing for both. This is a good thing.


The best way to address it is to supply the DM with options on resting and encourage them to pick one that suits their campaign. That way people who feel they need to address it can do and those of us who don't want to house rule around rules we feel are unnecessary don't have to.


Now, everybody just take their prozac and agree to disagree.




Yep, looks like this is simply a repeat of the other thread. I'm wondering if anyone can post a summary of the other thread so we can skip to the end again rather than repeating the other thread. In fact an Orc needs to come and just merge the two threads together as their subject is identical...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.



He doesn't need to house rule something that isn't broken. 



Heh, 3 separate threads on the same topic say otherwise.



And not once has anyone shown it to be a mechanics issue.  They claim it, but the facts indicate otherwise.  Were it a mechanics issue, it would happen in each and every game that used those mechanics.  It doesn't. 

Anyways, where I feel the problem (if people are having one in their games) starts is with a class that is fully, 100%, daily resource dependant. One of the reasons they implemented the Spontaneous spellcasting in 3E (ala Sorcerer) was to create an alternative spellcasting style so people didn't have to go Vancian with their Magic-User. But what was the compromise? Well Sorcerers have to spend a full-round when casting a Metamagic spells and they get nothing for class features outside the Familiar. If you remove these restrictions, give the Sorcerer bonus feats at every 5th level and the class becomes a better option than Wizards (why else would they implement the restrictions in the first place?). That says something about Vancian casting in my book.



What is says is that there were broken spells ;)



Yep, this was addressed in the other thread too, nice Straw Manning too Max just like the other thread. Just because you don't encounter an issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Its the whole "The system isn't complex enough to have more than one outcome" fallacy. Especially with an open ended system that relies on random dice, player decisions, and DM cleverness. There are thousands of outcomes to any given scenario when you have that many variables.

To simplify, just because you didn't experience the brakes going out on your hybrid doesn't mean there wasn't a flaw in the braking system on hybrids...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
It is not a problem for me and i do not want to sacrifice mechanics i am fond of in order to fix something there is not broken for me.


Then houserule.



He doesn't need to house rule something that isn't broken. 



Heh, 3 separate threads on the same topic say otherwise.



And not once has anyone shown it to be a mechanics issue.  They claim it, but the facts indicate otherwise.  Were it a mechanics issue, it would happen in each and every game that used those mechanics.  It doesn't. 

Anyways, where I feel the problem (if people are having one in their games) starts is with a class that is fully, 100%, daily resource dependant. One of the reasons they implemented the Spontaneous spellcasting in 3E (ala Sorcerer) was to create an alternative spellcasting style so people didn't have to go Vancian with their Magic-User. But what was the compromise? Well Sorcerers have to spend a full-round when casting a Metamagic spells and they get nothing for class features outside the Familiar. If you remove these restrictions, give the Sorcerer bonus feats at every 5th level and the class becomes a better option than Wizards (why else would they implement the restrictions in the first place?). That says something about Vancian casting in my book.



What is says is that there were broken spells ;)



Yep, this was addressed in the other thread too, nice Straw Manning too Max just like the other thread. Just because you don't encounter an issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Its the whole "The system isn't complex enough to have more than one outcome" fallacy. Especially with an open ended system that relies on random dice, player decisions, and DM cleverness. There are thousands of outcomes to any given scenario when you have that many variables.

To simplify, just because you didn't experience the brakes going out on your hybrid doesn't mean there wasn't a flaw in the braking system on hybrids...



Never feed a 5mwd thread after midnight and don't pour water on it!  
I've seen alot of threads about this but not one have a seen a good reason why its an issue, maybe I've been playing wrong but every since I started playing back in high school two things have always been true to keep this from being an issue

1) Its essentially up to the DM in most cases

2) It's impossible to get a full 8 hours of sleep in a hostile area.

These 2 rules (mainly the second one) make the 5 Minute work day a non-issue


It really just comes down to one big reason: some people don't like it. Which is fair.
You can break it down and extrapolate and expand on how it impacts the game, but really it just comes down to personal taste in gameplay style. 

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

Also check out my books at 5mwd.com/publishingIncluding Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuildinga compilation of my blog series on Worldbuilding.

 

5MWD isn't the problem, its the result of a problem. The problem, like I said, are classes that rely on all daily resources. First is remaining relevant through most of the encounters at low level and being reduced to inferior methods of contributing (ie. wizards w/ crossbow). So this sets the precedent that a daily resource, being limted, must be far more powerful than round-to-round or encounter options. This then creates a 3rd problem, imbalance.

So what I infer is that classes with nearly all daily resources will promote 5mwd-syndrome, little contribution when those resources run dry, and broken spell. Perhaps its this element that needs removed. Oh wait, that would make traditionalists mad and we can't have that.
As for solutions we've been presented, here's my opinion on why some of them don't work.

"Just put a time strain on the current objective."-This is mostly things like "You have until sunrise to save the princess." and "It's prophesied that if the moon orb is not returned to it's pedastal before the year's end, the world will die.". This solution is fine to a point, but it also brings up a few of it's own issues. One, a time limit doesn't always make sense. What if you're just treasure hunting in some old abandoned ruins? What about a murder mystery(assuming you have all the suspects prevented from leaving, tak as long as it needs to)? Plus it gets kinda silly when you have to contrive some time limit whenever your party goes to do something. Constant danger and campaign-ending time limits only caters to one specific style of game, and cuts out other types of campaigns people could be playing.

"Well, if they try to rest, they'll get a random encounter."-This doens't work for other reasons. The main one is when you start attacking the party if they try to rest outside what you find acceptable, they're going to start resting even more often. Since they don't know when they'll get an arbitrary camp ambush, they'll start wanting to save their resources up just in case, and the more resources they want to save, the sooner they're going to rest. That and they'll usually see it as just another obstacle to overcome and will just find a way around it.
Some of the possible solutions that have been presented in the other 2 or 3 threads and elsewhere:

Rest shrines- too MMOish. Not sure there would be too many fans of this.

Removal of daily powers- not gonna happen. But if they were removed, it would cause a trickle-down effect on encounter-based powers. Doable, but not necessarily desireable.

Encounter-based recharging- this one I don't have any problem with. Every X encounters all daily-based powers recharge. The only issue comes from adventures that only plan for 1 encounter in a day. The ability to nova and wipe out the encounter is still there. If the DM knows this in advance, he will probably just bump up the difficulty of that one encounter to the point that those without nova abilities would be screwed. It would take time and effort, but this one's at least feasible. 

A spell-point/recharge system- this one is also doable, but would require a rewrite of all the spells and in the entire game and a metric ton of bookkeeping. Spells are gained by the usual methods, but require points to use. More powerful spells would require more points to use. Every round the caster gets X number of points back, eventually refilling his point-pool. Think of any video game with a constantly recharging mana pool (Skyrim, etc.). This would be decent enough for spells, but doesn't address magic item powers or anything else that uses a daily recharge mechanic.
the problem isn't the daily aspect. It's overpowered spells with few buy-the-book restrictions.

Well it's one of these topics.

*Teleports out of topic with no chance of error and now one can stop me*

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

@Hocus - " Removal of daily powers- not gonna happen. But if they were removed, it would cause a trickle-down effect on encounter-based powers. Doable, but not necessarily desireable."

Sad that you're probably right about it not happening. I'd love to see only "at-will" powers that grow with the characters. All characters would become linear. Only rituals would break the normal rules.
@Hocus - " Removal of daily powers- not gonna happen. But if they were removed, it would cause a trickle-down effect on encounter-based powers. Doable, but not necessarily desireable."

Sad that you're probably right about it not happening. I'd love to see only "at-will" powers that grow with the characters. All characters would become linear. Only rituals would break the normal rules.
It's only an issue to someone who belives a nova/rest cycle means someone isn't roleplaying hard enough.
Removal of daily powers- not gonna happen. But if they were removed, it would cause a trickle-down effect on encounter-based powers. Doable, but not necessarily desireable.

It's the only way to absolutely eliminate 5MWD for good.
A spell-point/recharge system
- this one is also doable, but would require a rewrite of all the spells and in the entire game and a metric ton of bookkeeping.
Or, just burn off short-rest hitdice to recover spell slots or points or whatever.  It's not going to eliminate the 5MWD, but it may stretch it out to a seven minute workday.