Will 5e allow you to make a "fantasy" wizard?

Think of your favorite fantasy wizards. You have Harry Potter, Gandalf, Harry Dresden, Merlin, Lina Inverse, etc. They all share something in common. None of them use Vancian casting.

They all can learn new spells, but they never memorize spells per day in advance. Once a spell is learned they can simply cast it. Most of the spells they cast are relatively minor and can be used indefinitely. Physical fatigue, not slots seems to be the limiting factor. For many utility spells, casting involves a lot of time and effort and is more similar to a Ritual than a fast cast D&D spell.

Will 5e have casters that are like this at all? Will it have true fantasy wizards?

My 5e Homebrew Material

The 5e Warblade

The Hero: A Modular 5e Class

Doubtful because that doesn't "feel like dnd" which is the driving consideration for this edition.

Yes I know what they've said about this topic but I have long since taken the attitude of "I'll believe it when I see it" where their statements of future products and or changes are concerned.

And they have nothing to blame for that but their own track record.  Heck I'm not even blaming the devs as much as I am the suits. 
I hope not. EGG stated that he used his system so as to limit the spell caster in the game. 

There would be nothing worse than to let spell casters cast their spells anytime they want to. this is a big reason why people scream and yell about wizards being over powered as they gain levels. If you give them more and more power as they get more experienced without giving that same power to the other classes then those who prefer to play martial characters feel cheated.

I as a DM don't want the casters using major blast'em spells all day every day. I don't want them using them at all except in dire circumstances where they are the lesser of two evils, but I let the caster play her way and design around her abilities. 
I hope not. EGG stated that he used his system so as to limit the spell caster in the game.   



There are a lot of ways to limit a caster .. the characters of myth and legend and fiction do have limits... amnesia is not on the list though.

The Harry Potter wizards even though a pretty bad case scenario were disarmable and misaimed as well as misfired and that wand was there weapon.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

The reason that D&D shouldn't let us play Harry-Potter-like Wizards is balance. Notice how in the Harry Potter universe everybody who matters is a Wizard because there's literally no point in being anything else. What would be the point of a Fighter or Rogue character in the Harry Potter universe? Nothing at all but to once again demonstrate how all-powerful magic is. Magic needs to have more limits than that in D&D. I don't agree that the limits need to be vancian, but they still need to be something.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
It does not bother me to characterize vancian casting as fatigue rather than memorization. 
It does not bother me to characterize vancian casting as fatigue rather than memorization. 



or mana points per day...


The reason that D&D shouldn't let us play Harry-Potter-like Wizards is balance. Notice how in the Harry Potter universe everybody who matters is a Wizard because there's literally no point in being anything else.



Yeah. This pretty much says it all.

The reason that D&D shouldn't let us play Harry-Potter-like Wizards is balance. Notice how in the Harry Potter universe everybody who matters is a Wizard because there's literally no point in being anything else. What would be the point of a Fighter or Rogue character in the Harry Potter universe? Nothing at all but to once again demonstrate how all-powerful magic is. Magic needs to have more limits than that in D&D. I don't agree that the limits need to be vancian, but they still need to be something.




Thats right they are a worst case scenario... I was still able to pick limits from there presentation of magic.

The game cannot be about muggles and the magisters.

 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

@Crimson: while the Harry Potter wizards did not interact with non casters in a meaningful way, this was more by story design than incompetence of non casters. In fact a warrior type character would give HP a run for his money as the combat spells are rather weak, can be dodged, and require a wand.

The Harry Potter wizards are in fact a great example of how an at-will/ritual wizard should work. Magic can be used frequently but has a relatively low impact on combat. Powerful magic requires long rituals with exotic components or rare artifacts. Magic also cannot solve every problem or entirely replace skill. Both a rogue and a fighter would be useful alongside a HP wizard.

Isn't the reason there have been so many magic using classes printed over the years because the D&D wizard doesn't really fit all concepts? There's no reason for the wizard to fit a given fantasy character's schtick. It's got its own thing going and there will no doubt be other character classes that suit different mage concepts better than the wizard.


We had the classes before and there's no reason we shouldn't expect to see it again.

@Crimson: while the Harry Potter wizards did not interact with non casters in a meaningful way, this was more by story design than incompetence of non casters.  



I am seeing muggle rotating in mid air helpless at the end of a wand... and little boy wizards turning abusive relatives in to hot air balloons and death spells that are castable by children.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

@Crimson: while the Harry Potter wizards did not interact with non casters in a meaningful way, this was more by story design than incompetence of non casters.  



I am seeing muggle rotating in mid air helpless at the end of a wand... and little boy wizards turning abusive relatives in to hot air balloons and death spells that are castable by children.


And still less broken than 3.x Wizards.
@Crimson: while the Harry Potter wizards did not interact with non casters in a meaningful way, this was more by story design than incompetence of non casters.  



I am seeing muggle rotating in mid air helpless at the end of a wand... and little boy wizards turning abusive relatives in to hot air balloons and death spells that are castable by children.


And still less broken than 3.x Wizards.



ouch.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I care a lot more about adhering to D&D tradition than playing something from modern day literature.  But thats just my preference.  I'm more worried about what they are doing to the wizard.  I'm ok with at-wills and signature spells as options but I'd like the option to be a traditional D&D wizard.
@Garthanos: how come HP never uses those spells against enemies if they are so effective? Also congrats HP disabled unarmed peasants. A level 1 fighter could kill swaths of unarmed peasants too. A level 1 D&D Wizard can do things a high level HP wizard could never dream of (launching undodgeable death missiles that kill regular folks 100% of the time, putting groups of soldiers to sleep with no chance to resist, magic seizure inducing rainbows, etc).
A level 1 D&D Wizard can do things a high level HP wizard could never dream of (launching undodgeable death missiles that kill regular folks 100% of the time, putting groups of soldiers to sleep with no chance to resist, magic seizure inducing rainbows, etc).

You're not making a very good case for a level 1 D&D Wizard being balanced.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
^thats the point. A D&D wizard is nothing like a typical fantasy wizard. I want to see the option to make a typical fantasy wizard. Superpowers on an arbitrary daily limit isn't fantasy. Make a wizard with less powerful spells but near at-will usage. Don't have sleep and color spray for these wizards.
Think of your favorite fantasy wizards. You have Harry Potter, Gandalf, Harry Dresden, Merlin, Lina Inverse, etc. They all share something in common. None of them use Vancian casting. They all can learn new spells, but they never memorize spells per day in advance. Once a spell is learned they can simply cast it. Most of the spells they cast are relatively minor and can be used indefinitely. Physical fatigue, not slots seems to be the limiting factor. For many utility spells, casting involves a lot of time and effort and is more similar to a Ritual than a fast cast D&D spell. Will 5e have casters that are like this at all? Will it have true fantasy wizards?


Well, D&D Next has some spells able to be cast as rituals, which do not cost a spell slot, so...there's that option.

Other posters have brought up some good points about balance.  The idea of Vancian casting is a means to keep the wizard balanced with other classes.  While the limitation does somewhat hinder your attempt to more perfectly imitate the wizards of traditional (and modern) fantasy, mechanical considerations need to be taken into account.  When it comes down to it, D&D is not just fantasy storytelling, it is also a game.  A cooperative game.  If one player is grossly more effective than others, then the other players may feel left out.  So counterbalance options need to be in place to preserve a sense of fairness at the table.

Oh, and in your list of examples...I've always thought of Lina Inverse as a warlock.  When the Complete Arcane first came out and the warlock was introduced, my roommate and I were reading it, and he was like "So...basically Lina Inverse", which seemed a perfect fit.  And even if you want to go with a non-warlock, sorceress fits her better, as she is not the studious type. 
^thats the point. A D&D wizard is nothing like a typical fantasy wizard. I want to see the option to make a typical fantasy wizard. Superpowers on an arbitrary daily limit isn't fantasy. Make a wizard with less powerful spells but near at-will usage. Don't have sleep and color spray for these wizards.



*hug*
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
@Emerikol-

You have the option to play a traditional D&D banco an caster. Just pick the casting tradition that does that. "Academic". Your prepped 0-level spells are at-will. Instead of a signature spell you get a bonus spell slot of the highest spell level you're able to cast.

I can't be sure but I believe that should please your group.
^thats the point. A D&D wizard is nothing like a typical fantasy wizard. I want to see the option to make a typical fantasy wizard. Superpowers on an arbitrary daily limit isn't fantasy. Make a wizard with less powerful spells but near at-will usage. Don't have sleep and color spray for these wizards.

This would be a good use for something I started as an obnoxious response to the old-style-D&D-wizard-players' demand for a simple fighter, namely offering a simple wizard.

Start with a small number of at-will spells, designed to be equivalent in effectiveness (although not necessarily identical) to a fighter's "I hit it with my sword". One that does pretty much the same damage. One that does no damage but imposes a mild condition for a short duration. Maybe one that moves the target a short distance. All of them capable of missing.

Then add 5E-fighter-style expertise dice. And appropriate uses for those expertise dice - some of which will resemble the fighters' maneuvers (expeliarmus to block damage, and if the expertise dice roll is maximal then the attacker loses the ability to attack until it moves to a location of the wizard's choosing within 15 feet) and some which won't (expecto patronum to summon a creature who immediately forces all enemies within a certain distance of the wizard to flee to some larger distance, inflicting damage for each 5 feet moved).

(Legal team will demand that different names be used, of course.)

Edit: I want to make it explicit that this version of the wizard could not battle-cast any spells other than these specific at-will spells. Anything else would be rituals only.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
^thats the point. A D&D wizard is nothing like a typical fantasy wizard. I want to see the option to make a typical fantasy wizard. Superpowers on an arbitrary daily limit isn't fantasy. Make a wizard with less powerful spells but near at-will usage. Don't have sleep and color spray for these wizards.



Even just a 1-hour rest (instead of a sleep) to refresh from “fatigue” would better approximate the Wizard archetype.

The problem is “per day”. Just change that, and everything else works out fine.
I want to see the Vancian alternate module option. Until the Vancian spells are completed and we see the power gradients of increasing levels, we won't be able to say how best to balance the alternatives.
In 2E and 3E I always used a spell point system. It made perfect sense to me in somewhere like Dark Sun, where all the psionicists ran round with power pools.

Mana pools have the problem of players spamming their best spells. One way of taming that is to make recasting of the same spell more fatiguing, so players get more mileage from variety. You can make casting in higher levels repeatedly more fatiguing also.

Spell casting times used to factor into initiative in some older alternates (higher level spells took longer to cast) and taking damage disrupted casting. So wizards under immediate threat were more likely to use the quick casting, lower level spells. Making players state their actions before initiative and rolling initativve every orund slowed the game but made high level spammimg less likely (there was still a lot of fireballs though).
The equivalent to Next now would be allowing casting at about +2 initiative for 1st level spells and take off one per spell level, so a 9th level spell is a nasty -6 initiative.
D&D is like religion. People focus far too much on the differences rather than the similarities.
I see D&D tradition as being explicitly not like the heritage of classic fantasy myth and legend as well as all literature modern or not.

Vance or even the merlin character in the Amber chronicles (*whose magic may have even been conceived based on d&d). 

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Think of your favorite fantasy wizards. You have Harry Potter, Gandalf, Harry Dresden, Merlin, Lina Inverse, etc.


Harry Potter is a broken wizard, as has already been discussed.

Gandalf (the Grey) actually does have some sort of limit to his magic, though it's not spelled out in detail because he's not the focus character.  He does say in The Hobbit that this is why he couldn't strike all the goblins dead when they first ambushed the company in the cave, but is able to work much greater magic to bail them out of the goblin king's clutches later.  He seems to need some time to cook up his tricks.

Harry Dresden definitely has to prepare some of his magic ahead of time.  He has some at-will stuff, some stuff that's "at-will" but fatiguing (call it encounter magic for simplicity), and some full-blown hermetic ritualistic stuff.

Merlin is a public-domain character who has been portrayed in so many different ways that you can't say definitively that any magic system would fit him better or worse.

And I haven't read any of Lina Inverse's stories but my understanding is that she's actually based on a D&D wizard.

Do these characters have "spell slots" and "fifth-level spells" and twenty-four-hour refresh times?  Not explicitly.  But complaining that they lack these details is like complaining that Aragorn doesn't have a "base attack bonus".  They're just a simple way of modeling magic mechanically (borrowed from a series of stories whose author took the time to think about and explain the mechanics of wizardry).

Now, are they the only way?  Of course not.  And I'm all for seeing different options for players who don't like Vancian magic for whatever reason.  But I think the assertion that the traditional D&D wizard does not and cannot resemble classic fantasy wizards is simply false.  He's a physically frail but crafty character who hoards magical knowledge, plans ahead, and casts spells judiciously as if they were a finite resource.  I don't know what part of that description you can object to.
The 2nd edition published spell point system was Richard Baker's in Players Option: Spells and Magic

This thread discusses a modified version:
www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/495...

They also discuss adjusting the character level a spell is cast at by spending more or less points.
D&D is like religion. People focus far too much on the differences rather than the similarities.
Vancian magic was back in the day one of the first things people classically house ruled away from D&D. Being known for what people didnt like is kind of sad. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

This was originally written for GURPS, not D&D, but you can quickly take the concepts presented in the Unlimited Mana article and apply them to the D&D magic system.  That would allow you to play your "fantasy wizard" without relying on WotC at all.
Think of your favorite fantasy wizards. You have Harry Potter, Gandalf, Harry Dresden, Merlin, Lina Inverse, etc. They all share something in common. None of them use Vancian casting.

Sure.  There's also some things they don't have in common.  Harry, Harry, and Lina are protagonists.  Gandalf and Merlin were plot devices and sources of exposition.  

Trying to use the same class to model both doesn't seem like a good idea.

 

 

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