Loxodon Smiter can't be countered

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What does it mean that Loxodon Smiter can't be countered?
 
What does it mean that Loxodon Smiter can't be countered?
 


It means that when you cast it, if your opponent tries to Cancel it, the Cancel will have no effect.
 
To "counter" a spell or an ability (on the stack thus) means removing it from the stack and putting it into its owner's graveyard without for it to have any of its effects.

The smiter is protected from that.

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To "counter" a spell or an ability (on the stack thus) means removing it from the stack and putting it into its owner's graveyard without for it to have any of its effects.

The smiter is protected from that.

No its not, because those two things are not equivalent.

The Smiter is not protected from being removed from the stack and put into its owner's graveyard. One counters by moving from the stack to the graveyard, but they don't mean the same thing.

For example,

"Die" means "Move from the battlefield to the graveyard". They're interchangeable.

"Destroy" does not mean "Move from the battlefield to the graveyard". They're not interchangeable.

"Counter" does not mean "Move from the stack to the graveyard". They're not interchangeable.

Venser, Shaper Savant has an example of an ability that removes a spell from the stack without countering it (though it sends to hand, not to graveyard).

Ikegami, your post is silly.

Nowhere in mine do I imply that "counter" is interchangeable with "put from stack to the graveyard".

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Ikegami, your post is silly.

Nowhere in mine do I imply that "counter" is interchangeable with "put from stack to the graveyard".

To "counter" a spell or an ability (on the stack thus) means removing it from the stack and putting it into its owner's graveyard without for it to have any of its effects.

"Counter" does not mean "Move from the stack to the graveyard". They're not interchangeable.
"counter" means "move from the stack to the graveyard"
"move from the stack to the graveyard" does not mean "counter"
proud member of the 2011 community team
"Counter" does not mean "Move from the stack to the graveyard". They're not interchangeable.

With all due respect, the verb "counter" does mean "Move from the stack to the graveyard." That's what the rules say happens to the card in the definition of the keyword action "counter." I can't actually think of any card that moves another card from the stack to it's owner's graveyard but doesn't counter that card. - however, I can't claim to have an encyclopedic knowledge of cards from about 5th Dawn on.

I can say that all the cards I can think of that stop a card from resolving without countering it put the card associated with the spell in a zone other than the graveyard - typically exile, but in the case of Venser to its owner's hand.

The same applies to "destroy" in your earlier post. To destroy means to move a permanent from the battlefield to it's owner's graveyard. Again, it's in the definition of the keyword action "destroy."

It's true that permanents can be moved to graveyards by other processes (sacrifice, for example), so the two statements aren't equal, but every single instance of "destroy" on cards or in the rules means "put the destroyed permanent(s) into their owners graveyards."

Oh - and "die" is not incerchangeable with "put into it's owner's graveyard" either. Planeswalkers. for example, don't die. Neither do lands, artifacts or enchantments.

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Yeah, I don't think there is anything that moves a spell to the graveyard without countering it, though instants and sorceries obviously make that transition on their own as they resolve.

700.6. The term dies means “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.” It is used only when referring to creatures.

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To make "countering" more convoluted, some creatures have a triggered ability, that upon being cast triggers even if the creature is countered(Cascade for starters).
STEP 1: Find your cousin STEP 2: Get your cousin in the cannon STEP: 3 Find another cousin
"Counter" does not mean "Move from the stack to the graveyard". They're not interchangeable.

With all due respect, the verb "counter" does mean "Move from the stack to the graveyard."

No, something that triggers on a spell being countered does not trigger on a spell moving from the stack to the graveyard. In MTG, they don't mean the same thing.

For example, Multani's Presence's ability does not trigger due to an instant resolving.

The same applies to "destroy" in your earlier post. To destroy means to move a permanent from the battlefield to it's owner's graveyard. Again, it's in the definition of the keyword action "destroy."

No, something that triggers on a permanent being destroyed does not trigger on a permanent moving from the battlefield to the graveyard. In MTG, they don't mean the same thing.

For example, Bear Umbra's third ability does nothing if the enchanted creature goes to the graveyard for having a toughness of zero.

Oh - and "die" is not incerchangeable with "put into it's owner's graveyard" either. Planeswalkers. for example, don't die. Neither do lands, artifacts or enchantments.

That's not true. That sentence means the Wizards won't use the word die to refer to non-creatures. It does't mean they don't die. Sometimes, the game does check if a non-creature dies. (And I don't mean artifact creatures.)

Ruleswise, they are interchangeable. For example, Blood Artist's ability will trigger if you perform "Move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard".

In MTG, keyword actions are not equivalent to the actions one performs to complete that action. They have distinct meanings. Counter and Destroy are keyword actions. Die isn't.

Yeah, I don't think there is anything that moves a spell to the graveyard without countering it

I can think of two:
608.2k As the final part of an instant or sorcery spell’s resolution, the spell is put into its owner’s graveyard. [...]

608.3b If a permanent spell resolves but its controller can’t put it onto the battlefield, that player puts it into its owner’s graveyard.

Comp rule 701.5a reads "To counter a spell or ability means to cancel it, removing it from the stack.  It doesn't resolve and none of it's effects occur.  A countered spell is put into it's owners graveyard."
STEP 1: Find your cousin STEP 2: Get your cousin in the cannon STEP: 3 Find another cousin
Comp rule 701.5a reads "To counter a spell or ability means to cancel it, removing it from the stack.  It doesn't resolve and none of it's effects occur.  A countered spell is put into it's owners graveyard."

Ok, fine, to counter a spell means to cancel a spell. Noone claimed it didn't.

I fully agree that a countered spell is put into it's owners graveyard.
Comp rule 701.5a reads "To counter a spell or ability means to cancel it, removing it from the stack.  It doesn't resolve and none of it's effects occur.  A countered spell is put into it's owners graveyard."

Ok, fine, to counter a spell means to cancel a spell. Noone claimed it didn't.

I fully agree that a countered spell is put into it's owners graveyard.


It seems to me that you keep trying to define what Countering isn't, but you're not defining what it is.



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It's defined in terms of what it does, and don't we all know what it does? (To counter a spell or ability, move it from the stack to the graveyard. It doesn't go on to resolve.) I'm pointing out that what Zoidberg said was wrong (and it does matter if you look at the Multani's Presence example I gave) and people have been fighting back against that claim.
The rules team refers to things like counter and destroy as "wrappers." When a spell is countered, you move it from the stack to your graveyard. But if something in the game cares about a spell being "countered," it only triggers if the wrapper event ocurred. It won't trigger if the card is moved to the same place, but for another reason -- regardless of whether that interaction is possible.

Most people would agree that "to counter" means "move from the stack to your graveyard" (because it's what you do!) when speaking informally. But in this case, ikegami is highlighting the importance of making a distinction. It seems to me that everyone here is in agreement, so let's not continue the argument.

Do keep in mind that replacement effects might change what happens when a spell is countered without changing the fact that it has been countered.
Zoidberg:
To "counter" a spell or an ability (on the stack thus) means removing it from the stack and putting it into its owner's graveyard without for it to have any of its effects.

Ikegami
(To counter a spell or ability, move it from the stack to the graveyard. It doesn't go on to resolve.) 

I for one don't see the diffrence.

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Everyone agrees on all the relevant facts - we all understand what countering a spell does and we all agree on what will or won't trigger Multani's Presence. The disagreement is only about what word choice best characterizes those facts.

As near as I can tell, Ikegami objects to saying countering means moving from the stack to the graveyard (even though that appears to be just what the rulebook says) on the grounds that saying X means Y implies that X and Y are interchangeable, which (as we all agree) they aren't in this case. In other words, this dispute is quite literally over the meaning of "meaning", and nothing specific to Magic. There is no situation that can come up in a Magic game whose result people are in disagreement about. There isn't even a term in the rulebook that they have a practical dispute about how to apply.

Can we just agree that that doesn't warrant 20 posts and just drop it? It seems like a really silly thing to argue about, once one is clear on what the dispute is actually about.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
I take it that discard and sacrifice are also "wrappers"?

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I take it that discard and sacrifice are also "wrappers"?


"Destroy" too.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Yes to both (although the rules call them "keyword actions").

Something can replace the card's move to the graveyard without replacing the discard event. e.g. Confessor's ability will still trigger if you are instructed to discard Progenitus. And if there was a card that prevented discard, it wouldn't prevent cards from moving from a hand to a graveyard by other means.

Something can replace the card's move to the graveyard without replacing the sacrifice event. e.g. Mortician Beetle's ability will still trigger if you are instructed to sacrifice Progenitus. And if there was a card that prevented sacrifice, it wouldn't prevent cards from moving from the battlefield to a graveyard by other means.
OK, I know I was right and should let this drop but (this is a funny thread :P)
"counter" means "move from the stack to the graveyard"
"move from the stack to the graveyard" does not mean "counter"


Basically this, what appears to me is that Ikegami seem to be blaming me for something I did not say which is (almost) fixed by what my fellow poster here said. Only nitpick is that he forgot "and none of its effects occur", as in, "it does not resolve". All of which, I think I specified.
Note that even if the rules prevents a spell from resolving, none of its effects occur and it's put into its owner's graveyard, is specified as "countered". So this is kind of interchangeable from this point of view.

"Counter" IS a wrapper for "Move this spell to its owner's graveyard, none of its effects occur".
"Destroy" IS a wrapper for "Move this permanent to its owner's graveyard".

Only difference is that the "keywords" (as Ikegami used) themselves have a meaning, so that we can have "indestructible", "regeneration" and "can't be countered".

I guess this post was already too much so I'll just leave it at that.

Cheers.

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simple scenario to help alleviate this discussion.
1. player 1: pays Mountain plays a pillar of flame 2 dam to creature/player
2. player 2: says in response to the piller of flame, I will pay one colorless 2 blue and play cancel (counter target spell)
 
piller of flame simply cannot work and moves from the stack to the graveyard, pillar of flame does not do any damage.  the counterspell works and moves into player 2's graveyard.

ok example 2:
1. player 1: plays 1 colorless, a green, and a white and plays a loxodon smiter.  Loxodon smitter cannot be countered...  player two cannot cast a cancel in this example.  However, if....and I say if loxodon smiter said hexproof instead of cannot be countered....player 2 could cast a cancel and counter him at this time.  if i am correct, loxodon smiter cannot be discarded and if the instance that this happens he moves instead of from your hand to your graveyard, he would move from your hand to the battlefield.

so ways of getting around him, he can be destroyed and/or exiled, dealt lethal combat damage, or dealt lethal direct damage via instants or sorcery's or abilities of other creatures/artifacts. He can also be placed on top of owners library and then thought scoured into the graveyard.     
    
     
  
is not "mountain"

player2 can cast Cancel on Loxodon Smiter, it just won't do anything
that might be important for Undermine or Absorb or similar

Loxodon Smiter can be discarded
he just moves to the battlefield instead of the graveyard if the spell/ability causing the discard is controlled by an opponent
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sure they can cast cancel, even if it was undermine or absorb, kinda pointless, save it for something that can be countered and gain life.  If the player was in a pinch for some life sure, I can see that.  Its all based on an example...and last time I checked moutains produced red mana, there are other things that produce red mana as well, but for the example a mountain produced a red mana.  I figured most people would understand what I was talking about.
No-one is denying that mountains produce red mana, or even that they're the most common, "default" way of doing so. That does not make them the same thing. Calling a "mountain" is kind of like calling a glass of milk a cow.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
I figured most people would understand what I was talking about.

We here do. The question we have is "do you?" Questions that arise from equating "red mana" and "mountain" are quite common. We feel it's our job to fix your misconception before it causes you problems.

stack is this (If you were wondering):

http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/406/~/magic%3A-the-gathering---the-stack

 

 

READ IT

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now imagine your  Loxodon Smite comes into the stack instead of the Icy Manipulator and in response to you playing it they can't do anything. But with anything else that can be countred, when can come into the stack and be played out by  Cancel or any other card like it. 

don't necro 2 year old threads

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