Intelligence of Planeswalkers

22 posts / 0 new
Last post

Has it been defined if a certain level of intelligence is required to develop a spark? The only non-humanoid non-dragon planeswalker we’ve seen is that weird demonic leviathan not-an-Eldrazi thing Bolas fought, which was an oldwalker so that might not even his true form.


So, do we know if something with an alien or animal mindset can develop a spark?

Sapience seems to be the only definite characteristic, as it is indicative of a soul, which is vital for the spark.
IMAGE(http://www.wizards.com/global/images/mtgcom_daily_mc52_picMain_en.jpg)IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/73821e61e013eadf56a8e4e2226d89a3.jpg?v=90000)
What Shamsiel said.

You used the word "alien," though. What exactly do you mean by that? I mean, there are some characteristics that define intelligence in a way that goes beyond "mindset," and those would presumably be more important than whether or not something has a blue and orange morality (I mean, craziness is almost more of a feature of Planeswalkerhood than a bug) but maybe you mean something else?
Coming Soon to the Magic: Expanded Multiverse: FRAGMENTS: A Shards of Alara Anthology
(Click through to view the cover and announcement page)Want to get your work in the Expanded Multiverse? Come join the project! Oh, and check out my blog, Storming the Ivory Tower: making sense of academia, media, and culture twice weekly.
I think by alien he means something like a part of a hivemind or something.
What Shamsiel said.

You used the word "alien," though. What exactly do you mean by that? I mean, there are some characteristics that define intelligence in a way that goes beyond "mindset," and those would presumably be more important than whether or not something has a blue and orange morality (I mean, craziness is almost more of a feature of Planeswalkerhood than a bug) but maybe you mean something else?



Like the Eldrazi. A form of intelligence that the human mind can not comprehend.
Well, the Eldrazi aren't and cannot be Planeswalkers. They're more than just alien intelligences, they're alien to the very essence of planar existence.

But an alien intelligence... I don't know, I'm skeptical of the idea that something can be "an intelligence" and yet be wholly alien to us. But granting that it is, it's still going to meet some minimum cognitive requirements, and that seems to be all the Spark needs. I mean, I would say yeah, probably, no reason why it couldn't work.
Coming Soon to the Magic: Expanded Multiverse: FRAGMENTS: A Shards of Alara Anthology
(Click through to view the cover and announcement page)Want to get your work in the Expanded Multiverse? Come join the project! Oh, and check out my blog, Storming the Ivory Tower: making sense of academia, media, and culture twice weekly.
I think by alien he means something like a part of a hivemind or something.


Individuality is almost an absolute requisite of having a soul.
One has to be able to think for oneself to develop any idiosyncracies that would be indicative of a unique self.
One of the issues of a hivemind is the lack of non-communal perspective. They can't think outside the entire entity to realize there is something unique about oneself. And the entire hivemind sure as hell can't possess the same soul.
Like the Eldrazi. A form of intelligence that the human mind can not comprehend.


Impossible to tell without accurate parameters.

I think by alien he means something like a part of a hivemind or something.


Individuality is almost an absolute requisite of having a soul.
One has to be able to think for oneself to develop any idiosyncracies that would be indicative of a unique self.
One of the issues of a hivemind is the lack of non-communal perspective. They can't think outside the entire entity to realize there is something unique about oneself. And the entire hivemind sure as hell can't possess the same soul.




I guess I could see a hivemind developing a spark. I guess it depends on whether it's a bunch of linked individuals or a full scale "we are merely limbs of the greater us" sort of thing. Seems like the standard way to go about these things in a fantasy universe. Anyways probably shouldn't get into the prerequisites for having a soul on the forums. In any case story telling logistics would probably prevent WOTC from ever making one.

As for the main gist of the thread I'm going to say that sparks probably require sentientce but not sapience.
I guess I could see a hivemind developing a spark. I guess it depends on whether it's a bunch of linked individuals or a full scale "we are merely limbs of the greater us" sort of thing. Seems like the standard way to go about these things in a fantasy universe. Anyways probably shouldn't get into the prerequisites for having a soul on the forums. In any case story telling logistics would probably prevent WOTC from ever making one.

As for the main gist of the thread I'm going to say that sparks probably require sentientce but not sapience.



You don't develop a spark, it's something you're born with, and a hivemind has too many working parts. Either an infinitesimal fraction of it would be born with a spark, in which case it would go brain dead the instant it flared, or the entire things would have to have a spark since none of the moving parts would. in which case it couldn't physically work since there would need to be a central intelligence for the spark to anchor too and you wouldn't be able to move so many "individuals" through a single spark. If you could, it would imply they were soulless to be sharing the same soul... And that creates the oxymoron that they had souls for the spark be born with.
I think by alien he means something like a part of a hivemind or something.



If a sliver becomes a planeswalker, do all slivers become planeswalkers? I mean, it's been implied that there's a sentience developing...
Doubtful. Slivers don't seem to share a soul, and they don't even trade powers over long distances. Slivers were always to some extent sapient though. The Sliver Queen was certainly intelligent and could communicate with Karn. It's possible the drones were also somewhat intelligent. One of them might become a lone 'walker. That could be interesting, I suppose.
Coming Soon to the Magic: Expanded Multiverse: FRAGMENTS: A Shards of Alara Anthology
(Click through to view the cover and announcement page)Want to get your work in the Expanded Multiverse? Come join the project! Oh, and check out my blog, Storming the Ivory Tower: making sense of academia, media, and culture twice weekly.
"Alien" is a complicated term. If I were psychic, I would no doubt find an animal's thought patterns alien.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
How do you know a soul isn't divisible or relational rather than the solid yet noncorporeal anti-matter human entity you're making it out to be?
Show
Obligatory and Preliminary Smiley Reservoir: IMAGE(http://rsescape.net/forum/Smileys/RSE%20emotes/Wee.png)IMAGE(http://rsescape.net/forum/Smileys/RSE%20emotes/Dancing%20AIM.gif)IMAGE(http://rsescape.net/forum/Smileys/RSE%20emotes/rawr.gif)IMAGE(http://rsescape.net/forum/Smileys/RSE%20emotes/ghgh.png)IMAGE(http://rsescape.net/forum/Smileys/RSE%20emotes/%5D%5D.gif)IMAGE(http://rsescape.net/forum/Smileys/RSE%20emotes/luv.gif)IMAGE(http://rsescape.net/forum/Smileys/RSE%20emotes/circle.png)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/sly.png)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/turtle.gif)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/jade.png)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/proud.gif)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wilson.gif)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/pcXQL.gif)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/blushing.png)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/proud.png)
How do you know a soul isn't divisible or relational rather than the solid yet noncorporeal anti-matter human entity you're making it out to be?



Because we've established that a soul cannot be divided without serious harm to the person. See: Mirrodin.

But it also goes into the fact that they define a major part of a person's individuality as their soul. See: Karn in Invasion.
(Does this unit have a soul?) It's a very basic principle of the Mind, Body, Soul split, as seen with Geth for example.
The soul defines a being. If there are more beings, then the soul can only define a singular aspect.

On the flip side, a being CAN have more than one soul, though all the excess souls will eventually lose their individuality and be subsumed into the central soul's gestalt consciousness. (see also Karn.)
Fair enough, though I haven't read Mirrodin yet so I don't know whether it rules the entire thing out or just ran into a metaphysical barrier against coercion or something. I'd argue that the mind body and soul model is hardly a universally held opinion on our planet so there's really no reason to assume it holds valid in de Universe apart from authors not realising what they're authoring.
Show
Obligatory and Preliminary Smiley Reservoir: IMAGE(http://rsescape.net/forum/Smileys/RSE%20emotes/Wee.png)IMAGE(http://rsescape.net/forum/Smileys/RSE%20emotes/Dancing%20AIM.gif)IMAGE(http://rsescape.net/forum/Smileys/RSE%20emotes/rawr.gif)IMAGE(http://rsescape.net/forum/Smileys/RSE%20emotes/ghgh.png)IMAGE(http://rsescape.net/forum/Smileys/RSE%20emotes/%5D%5D.gif)IMAGE(http://rsescape.net/forum/Smileys/RSE%20emotes/luv.gif)IMAGE(http://rsescape.net/forum/Smileys/RSE%20emotes/circle.png)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/sly.png)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/turtle.gif)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/jade.png)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/proud.gif)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wilson.gif)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/pcXQL.gif)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/blushing.png)IMAGE(http://www.the-gladiatorz.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/proud.png)
Doubtful. Slivers don't seem to share a soul, and they don't even trade powers over long distances.



The key word being "seem". I mean, they don't share a single body either, but they can still manage to increase their mass, seemingly without any other reason than wanting to be like the new popular kid on the block.

Slivers were always to some extent sapient though. The Sliver Queen was certainly intelligent and could communicate with Karn. It's possible the drones were also somewhat intelligent. One of them might become a lone 'walker. That could be interesting, I suppose.



Yes, but after she died, it seems that they lost that. The Sliver Overlord's flavour text, as well as the Time Spiral fluff implies that they became animals, more akin to bees or ants than something governed by a central, sapient intelligence. What Sliver Legion implies, however, is that a new Queen or something like her is being created. And if she ascended? Well, you know, Walkers can no longer bring others with them throughout the Multiverse, but in this case...

Her children are ever part of her.

Okay, this is silly, but I like the idea of the Slivers emulating WH40K Tyranids. Although I suppose we don't really need more generic doomsday villains at this point... >>
I feel that the general Sliver populace is probably unable to be created with a spark. The general populace of Slivers don't seem to be aware of there own concious. However, I feel that the Sliver Queen (or another Sliver like her), would have the ability to be created with a spark, as she seems to be aware of her own conciousness.

For those that play Mass Effect, it's like the Rachni, and there queen. I don't feel that a Rachni soilder would ever be able to be born with a spark, but the Rachni Queen herself definetly seems like she meets all the requirments to be born with a spark.

The real question here, is if a Sliver Queen, Rachni Queen, or Tyranid Queen WAS in fact born with a spark, and it ignited, how would that directly impact all the creatures that share the same connection. How would that effect the normal Slivers, Rachni, and Tyranids for instance. Would they even benefit from there Hive Mother being a planeswalker? Would they share the same abilities. I don't believe so, but there is always a posibility I assume.

"You're like the flavor text for my life."

 

My Decks:

Life Drain and Gain

The Firemind

Grave Giants

Werewolves

Mono Black Control

I don't think a Sliver Queen being a neo-walker would really help the rank and file slivers at all. Neo-walkers aren't neccesarily all that powerful (Venser, for example, had virtually no magical ability outside of his teleporting). She wouldn't be able to bring her brood along with her when she walked, and I'm not sure whether she would even be able to bring new abilities back with her.

Now, Sliver Queen as an Old-walker would have been a completely different story. Quasi-godlike, immensely powerful, capably of shunting entire armies of slivers to far flung planes collecting new slivers with new abilities as she went.

Well if a sliver queen did gain the spark and went to another plane, she may not beable to take her brood with her, but she might beable to summon a small number of them to the plane she is on and have them server her there till she's done and release them before moving onto the next location. So even if she can not summon the actual slivers, she would be making new ones for her to summon and use when she needs them. (that is depending on wether planeswalkers summon the creatures themselves or just create a aether being in the form of the creatuer their trying to summon.)
Hive mind, and one soul divided, are different concepts. A hive mind means that they all have there own thoughts (to a certain extent), but there shared with everybody else. They are still there own creature. They are technicaly not one thing. Though one could argue that the leader has a shared soul with all slivers, but a common sliver does not have a shared soul with another common sliver.
I don't know if slivers have been described differently elsewhere, but on a recent podcast, MaRo described slivers as shapeshifters. Because they're a hivemind, if one sliver learns how to shapeshift a certain way, the others can do that too. Now, let's assume a sliver is born with a spark. Having a spark doesn't mean that the sliver knows how to shapeshift a spark, because that's impossible, so the other slivers wouldn't be able to planeswalk.

Note: This is all conjecture. It's also based off of something MaRo said, and he's not always totally accurate with flavor. 

IMAGE(http://steamsignature.com/status/default/76561197995631463.png) No longer a commander as of 7/29/13.

I would presume that Slivers do have a mechanism for queen replacement under normal circumstances, as with social insects.  A Planeswalker Queen would likely birth a reproductive female before departing, and upon arrival in the new plane begin to spawn a new brood.

"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

 

Follow me to No Goblins Allowed

A M:tG/D&D message board with a good community and usable software

 


THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920