Did Mearls really say strength might not be added to damage?

I'm not really a fan of the idea. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad in practice, but at the moment I don't really like it.



Where was this?
That's a new one on me.  I could understand not using Strength to hit, but this is the first time anyone has ever suggested not allowing Strength to damage.

Although, most finesse weapons don't use Strength to damage, so I guess it's not really that strange. 

The metagame is not the game.

I had misgivings at first... But I don't think it would be a horrible idea... I guess we will see whether or not they will pursue that one.


Seerow, it was in the Google+ Hangout.  
I certainly hope not, seeing as strength is already an inferior choice to dexterity for fighters.
I also look at this with mixted feelings. On one hand i want STR/DEX to apply to melee and ranged attack and damage rolls and on another hand i could see a balance reason to drop them altogheter.

I'll wait and see what they have to propose before taking a stance i guess.
I certainly hope not, seeing as strength is already an inferior choice to dexterity for fighters.



Yeah. Unless you bump up weapons 2 dice, I don't like it.*

*Oddly enough, that;s what I did is a simple homade rpg of mine.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I certainly hope not, seeing as strength is already an inferior choice to dexterity for fighters.



Yeah. Unless you bump up weapons 2 dice, I don't like it.*

*Oddly enough, that;s what I did is a simple homade rpg of mine.



What would bumping the weapons up 2 dice do with regards to making strength more valuable than dexterity?
What the hell?
 STR = dam needs to be a thing.  STR/DEX = hit is what needs to die.
What the hell?
 STR = dam needs to be a thing.  STR/DEX = hit is what needs to die.



Str = damage
Dex = attack

Of course it will never happen...Smile
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What the hell?
 STR = dam needs to be a thing.  STR/DEX = hit is what needs to die.



Str = damage
Dex = attack

Of course it will never happen...





Talk about stat dependency.
I certainly hope not, seeing as strength is already an inferior choice to dexterity for fighters.



Yeah. Unless you bump up weapons 2 dice, I don't like it.*

*Oddly enough, that;s what I did is a simple homade rpg of mine.



What would bumping the weapons up 2 dice do with regards to making strength more valuable than dexterity?



No, the Str/Martial/Heavy weapons would be 2 dice larger than the Dex/Finesse eqivalent.

A dagger (finesse throwable) deals 1d4 damage
A rapier (finesse onehanded) deals 1d6 damage.
A katana (finesse twohanded) deals 1d8 damage

A throwing axe (martial throwable) deals 1d8 damage
A longsword (martial onehanded) deals 1d10 damage.
A bastard sword (martial twohanded) deals 1d12 damage

EDIT:
In my homemade simple rpg, this is a combat class for each ability score. Abilty mods didnt give character's bonus damage. But Might Strength and Wisdom warriors did more damage to balance the super Stat status of Dexterity and Intelligence.

The Soldier and Knight wer Might Strength based. The Monk and Paladins were Wisdom based. They did 1d8 with light and throw weapons, 1d10 with one handed and bows, and 1d12 damage for two handed weapons.

The Noble and Thief were Dexterity based and The Assassin and Scholar were Intelligence based. They did 1d4 with light and throw weapons, 1d6 with one handed and bows, and 1d8 damage for two handed weapons.

The Dual stat classes did 1d6 with light and throw weapons, 1d8 with one handed and bows, and 1d10 damage for two handed weapons.

And the casters... LOL.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I'm not really a fan of the idea. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad in practice, but at the moment I don't really like it.



While it's absolutely fine to not be a fan of the idea, it's another thing entirely to not be a fan that he suggested the idea.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
What the hell?
 STR = dam needs to be a thing.  STR/DEX = hit is what needs to die.



Str = damage
Dex = attack

Of course it will never happen...

The downside of forty years of mathnerds is that we rip Gary and Dave apart.


Str = damage
Dex = attack

Of course it will never happen...

I can't believe I'm saying this, but.. I agree with lokiare.

The metagame is not the game.

Dex = attack && dex = defense just makes it a superstat.
I'm not convinced that's a good idea.
Is this another example of "Give us something really close to a good product and then keep taking away until everyone gives up?"
Is this another example of "Give us something really close to a good product and then keep taking away until everyone gives up?"

it's really starting to seem like "Mearls is milking it so he can take early retirement before Disney buys out the company"
Quite frankly, it's a damn great idea.
I certainly hope not, seeing as strength is already an inferior choice to dexterity for fighters.



Yeah. Unless you bump up weapons 2 dice, I don't like it.*

*Oddly enough, that;s what I did is a simple homade rpg of mine.





The problem isn't the damage. The problem is that dexterity is much more versatile than strength currently. Much, much more.
I'd say Wisdom (being the Perception stat) affects you're ability to see, Dexterity (being the hand-eye coordination [Reflex, Thievery, etc.] stat) affects you're ability to move your weapon to the correct spot, and Strength (being the stat determining how powerful you are physically, by definition alone) affects your ability to make your weapon actually have an impact.

For defense, Wisdom lets you see an attack coming in, Dexterity affects how you'll move your body in a way that either avoids the attack completely or allows the attack to hit a very well protected area (which would negate the attack), and Constitution affects how much you can actually absorb the hit.

Suggestion 1: to-hit = 1d20 + Wisdom + Strength + Dexterity vs. 10 + Armor Class + Wisdom + Dexterity (half if wearing medium armor, none if wearing heavy armor [heavy armor would have very high AC value to offset uselessness of Dexterity]) + Constitution

Suggestion 2: to-hit = 1d20 + middle of Strength, Dexterity or Wisdom vs. 10 + Armor Class + middle of Constitution, Dexterity or Wisdom

For more dynamic attack vs. defense, replace 10 with a 1d20 roll.  EDIT: For damage, not having Strength apply might work, but I'm probably going to implement static (averaged) damage instead.  Which should speed up gameplay, as found by Jonathan Tweet and Rob Heinsoo in their RPG.

(Suggestion 2 is effectively what 13th Age did to its stats)
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This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
I certainly hope not, seeing as strength is already an inferior choice to dexterity for fighters.



Yeah. Unless you bump up weapons 2 dice, I don't like it.*

*Oddly enough, that;s what I did is a simple homade rpg of mine.



The problem isn't the damage. The problem is that dexterity is much more versatile than strength currently. Much, much more.



Yes. This is true. Strength would need additional bonuses but I don't know if people are okay with Str to HP and DR.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I certainly hope not, seeing as strength is already an inferior choice to dexterity for fighters.



Yeah. Unless you bump up weapons 2 dice, I don't like it.*

*Oddly enough, that;s what I did is a simple homade rpg of mine.



The problem isn't the damage. The problem is that dexterity is much more versatile than strength currently. Much, much more.



Yes. This is true. Strength would need additional bonuses but I don't know if people are okay with Str to HP and DR.





A noble suggestion, but this would require merging strength and constitution together, which would never happen. Sacred cows, doncha know.
They need to either buff non finesse weapons, let strength add 50% to damage with a two handed weapon,  and make shields better. Another option would be 3.0s 50% strength to damage with two handed weapons, shields are +2 to AC. Just don't make a 3rd ed power atatck.

 The simple fix is dex no longer adds to damage for free (maybe via a feat for finesse weapons and another for missile weapons). To have interesting PCs they are gonna have to inflate the power of them a little. 4th ed did inflate them at level 1 but they also made the monster tougher to compensate.

 I think they are trying for a nice and easy system like BECM and 2nd ed but can't think up interesting class features without inflating the power level of the PCs. Its not like D&DN has interesting races as 3.5, 4th ed and Pathfinder all beat D&DN there. Maybe bounded accuracy is biting them in the ass. If abilitiy scores do not add to damage then they can add feats and class abilites that add to damage. A bit ass backwards perhaps.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I certainly hope not, seeing as strength is already an inferior choice to dexterity for fighters.



Yeah. Unless you bump up weapons 2 dice, I don't like it.*

*Oddly enough, that;s what I did is a simple homade rpg of mine.



The problem isn't the damage. The problem is that dexterity is much more versatile than strength currently. Much, much more.



Yes. This is true. Strength would need additional bonuses but I don't know if people are okay with Str to HP and DR.



A noble suggestion, but this would require merging strength and constitution together, which would never happen. Sacred cows, doncha know.



Merging Strength and Constitution into a single stat (sam with Wis and Cha) could work but it'll never happen.

Which is why I say:

  1. Bump up Str based martial weapon 1 or 2 dice

  2. Increase the AC of Heavy and Medium armor by 1

  3. Balance Acrobatic Dex actions to more raw force Athletic Str actions


This way going Str or Dex is more equal.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Well, Mearls more or less said that strength bonus to damage at earlier levels has a much bigger impact than later levels, so they might get rid of the mechanic entirely. I don't believe proposing strength do more damage will really make much of a difference.

I don't believe the problem is that dexterity adds to AC, initiative, can be used for to hit and damage, applies to more skills, and is largely used for saves against spells, rather, I believe the problem is strength does very little.
Well, Mearls more or less said that strength bonus to damage at earlier levels has a much bigger impact than later levels, so they might get rid of the mechanic entirely. I don't believe proposing strength do more damage will really make much of a difference. I don't believe the problem is that dexterity adds to AC, initiative, can be used for to hit and damage, applies to more skills, and is largely used for saves against spells, rather, I believe the problem is strength does very little.


Except what can Strength do aside from Strength-y stuff?

Dexterity is recognizably a super-stat not only because it applies to more skills (like INT), not only because it affects to-hit and damage (like STR), not only because it is one of three stats that primarily affect saves (other than CON and WIS), and not only is it because it affects AC and initiative, but because it does all this as a single stat and most physical attacks do fall in the Reflex or AC department.

Not that real life is fair either: when it comes to arnis training I'm taught more on dodging and endurance, and having the weapon amplify my strikes, as opposed to increasing my burst strength and brute striking power (most of the strikes taught to me relied more on hitting really fast and allowing the weapon to hit really hard as a result of that speed).  Then again I'm trained without heavy armor and huge weapons in mind, so I guess I'm being trained more as a finesse fighter than anything.

I guess Strength really matters only when heavy armor or heavy weapons comes into the picture, since it not only offsets the impact of weight on your endurance, it allows you to wield weapons that are harder to dodge away from.  Not that it's easy to replicate that in D&D.
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57047238 wrote:
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
I Don't Always Play Strikers...But When I Do, I Prefer Vampire Stay Thirsty, My Friends
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
The big kicker was dex to damage though with missile weapons and weapon finesse weapons. Theres actually a simialr thread over on the Paizo boards as there is a feat which allows dex to damage with scimitars. If you are not using a strength build you use scimitars and in that system you can get + 100% strenght damage with two handed weapons, and power attack penalties can be mitigated with a single feat. You also do not get dex to damage with missile weapons. Some people are keying everything off dex at the expense of strength which is now a dump stat.

 Different system similar problem and strength gets alot more mileage in Pathfinder. Heavy armor and strength has to offer a signifigant advantage in terms of AC and damage compared to dex.

18 dex shield, leather armor.

AC 16
Rapier 1d6+4
Bow 1d8+4

18 str, chainmail, shield
AC 17
longsword 1d8+4
thrwon weapon 1d6+4 (short range)

 And dex applies to skills, initiative etc. Yippie +1 damage, +1 AC. Where did I put my rapier?

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

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I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
Yup high dex is better unless you really really care about that +1 AC and +1 damage. Or -1 AC +3 damage with a d12 weapon.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

They're seriously considering removing the Str bonus to damage from weapon attacks? Please tell me this is a joke.
I'm sure that more tactical people hit more than dexterous people.

Int to hit hit makes as much sense as Dex.

In the end, experience helps to hit better than any stat.

It would be interesting to have the link to the source of information, if you please ! 

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

It seemed like it was an off-hand comment to me.  If they gave it a spin, I would imagine that it wouldn't be well received.  Then again, maybe it would.


And I like keeping strength as part of to-hit.  Hitting isn't just tagging your opponent, swinging with enough force/speed to breach his armor.

Its really everything you have being brought to the table, but its a game, and I think it works nice and simple when strength hits things, dex shoots things, etc, etc.

I do like the idea of strength or con having some effect on shield ac.  He was talking about giving fighters a constant damage resistance; maybe con while holding a shield could give you your con bonus every round (or attack) in soak. 
Not add Strength to damage?

If anything, you should be adding Strength to damage twice or One and a half times. Easiest way to make Strength as good as Dexterity.
The problem is superstats where one ability score rises above the rest, and multiple ability score dependency versus a single ability score to define a class. You can compare this with a wizard versus a fighter, where the wizard can concentrate on a single ability score and the fighter must use multiple ones. It gets more convoluted when comparing things like magical attack bonus and melee attack bonus and why should a cleric be worse at hitting with spells versus a mage, or a rogue versus a fighter. I never liked the BAB system that much from 3.5, and prefered the 4E approached. Then you can start to differentiate the classes based on the choices they have for the three tiers, including damage and effects.
Mearls mentioned it in the Google + chat. It very well could be an idea that won't ever make it to a play testing packet. I couldn't tell you how seriously the idea is being considered. I'm hoping it doesn't happen. I don't think strength is weaker than dex.
If you had both the intellect and the mental acuity to act before the opponent can react, then yes I would say INT can affect to-hit.  Although I'd probably have that apply to attacks that involve mental tasks, such as operating a sniper rifle over a thousand paces.

I don't think strength is weaker than dex.



I dunno; most of the applications of Strength involve


  • pushing stuff (including creatures [Bull Rush])

  • pulling stuff

  • lifting stuff

  • driving stuff down to the ground


Pretty straightforward list.  Got a lot of stuff you could fit into any of the four (including weight capacity), but not much you can do aside from those.  Because Dexterity is a combination of hand-eye coordination and nimbleness and reaction time, that allows Dexterity to have an unparalleled amount of coverage in terms of capabilities.  The fact that you have a decent number of weapons keying off Dexterity results in Strength getting less and less attention, to the point where you can build a completely DEX-based Fighter who would make up for the lack of Strength by utilizing Mighty Exertion. 
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57047238 wrote:
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
I Don't Always Play Strikers...But When I Do, I Prefer Vampire Stay Thirsty, My Friends
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
I noticed Dex was getting too much love in my DnDN games, so I instituted a minor houserule.

I made Strength add to damage, even with finesse weapons. So now, the rogue and dex-fighter are still accurate as heck, but don't hit nearly as hard as the dwarf fighter.

It's not as much a fix as I think is necessary to bring Strength out of the basement, but it has helped a bit.

Also, I'm trying my best to keep an eye on encumbrance. The strength-dump characters shouldn't be allowed to forget they chose to be weak.
D&DN has a generous weight allowence. 8 strength is 80 pounds of stuff.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

The problem they are trying to deal with is to much power across the board.  All the stat bonuses to starting characters added to over loaded expertise die causes issues.  Instead of cutting they should scale back.  Remove the stat bonuses, start with a 1d4 on expertise die, don't upgrade weapon damage based on race, etc.  All this makes for super characters t 1st level and almost unplayable characters at 20th.
In an alternate universe DEX is replaced with AGIL and AIM
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The extra race hit dice to race isn't a real problem its only two potential extra points of damage.
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