D&D Next Feedback: Playtest Survey (11/08)

D&D Next Feedback 
Playtest Survey (11/08)

By D&D Team

It’s that time again! We hope you have enjoyed the latest round of playtest materials. We are eager to know what you think. This survey focuses on core rules, classes, maneuvers, specialties & feats, spells, and magic items.

Talk about this Survey here.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

That took a while to fill out. Monsters squishy, Rogue needs help wizard feels odd.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I scooped you like... six hours ago on this.
CORE MORE, NOT CORE BORE!
Sorry i must have missed it.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Sorry i must have missed it.



I didn't have a nice thread title, so I am fine with it.
CORE MORE, NOT CORE BORE!
I went with the same format as the last one ;)

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Really? Where is the other posts. I'm wondering if WotC is messing with the forums again. Yeah, I put some stuff in there about the Wizard and the Rogue...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I apologize to the poor soul who is reviewing these. I was a bit vulgar and snarky in some of my survey comments. Some topics hit REALLY close to home.
So I gave two big thumbs up to the Wizard generally (with some niggles, especially about specific spells).

A "meh" for the Cleric (I'd really like turn undead to be optional).

A "BOO" for the Fighter (need more options, need another CS dice at 1st, don't need non-optional auto-features).

And a "why the hell would I ever play THIS?!?" for the Rogue.

Monsters need reworking.

Hit points are too low at start.

Magic items need an economy and the broken ones need fixing...

And some other stuff which has already fled my mind. 
I am sure Sneak Attack will get the most unsatisfaction rating result. I hope so anyway so it is quickly fixed. ;)

On a side note, i like how the survey is two fold, allowing for simpler or more in depth completion.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I wonder if they're filtering out the huge pile of profanity assured to appear in the form fields.
 I screwed up. I voted for the Cleric and Fighter were better than the Rogue and Wizard. Suggested the Wizard was almost there, make it 3 spells per level not 2 and PCs choice on at wills and signature spells. That means they will nerf the fighter into the ground. Also told them most of the fighter manuveurs are average and that glancing blow is terrible.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Zard: I actually voted the same, mostly because it's true. I also stressed in the comments that what was too strong was the Fighter's damage relative to the damage of others (stemming mostly from the bonus attack), and what it needed was more options that were useful, not more damage. I hit the 500 word cap in like 3 or 4 sections.


By the way, I completely blame this topic for me being tired this morning. I found it just as I was about to go to bed, and wound up staying up another two hours filling out the survey. 
I think the Rogue and Cleric are almost complete as concepts. SOme of the fighter manuveurs need some work along with the domains but they done a good job I thought. Might wanna add parry back as a standard feature as every fighter with half a brain is going to pick a style that gets it.

 ALso pointed out bounded accuracy doesn't work with ED. Not just skills but saves as well. Fighter will be semi immune to save or suck type spells like 2nd ed which I'm fine with but everyone else is boned. I can't see save or suck spells being a major problem if they only work 10% of the time or less. Stupid web spell.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I mostly moaned about spells. I just hate how they don't scale and I hate the "max hp over X = doesn't work" mechanic they're tenaciously clinging to.
I mostly moaned about spells. I just hate how they don't scale and I hate the "max hp over X = doesn't work" mechanic they're tenaciously clinging to.



Good. I was getting tired by the time I got to spells so didn't spend much time there. Basically harped on about the few that seem out of line a glance, and ignored them for the most part.


 ALso pointed out bounded accuracy doesn't work with ED. Not just skills but saves as well. Fighter will be semi immune to save or suck type spells like 2nd ed which I'm fine with but everyone else is boned. I can't see save or suck spells being a major problem if they only work 10% of the time or less. Stupid web spell.




Frankly, Bounded Accuracy doesn't work for skills in general. A major point I elaborated on was that Skills should never have been applied to bounded accuracy in the first place. In combat, the lack of numerical scaling is made up for by hp/damage. With skills, you don't get that. So you either have the problem of high level characters can't do much more than low level characters,  and thus only spellcasters contribute out of combat at high levels, or you give skills uses that can compete with spellcasting, and skills are overpowered at low levels.

As for saving throws, given the extreme limitation on maneuvers currently, spending a maneuver to be able to give up damage to gain a bonus to a saving throw is honestly weak. If the Fighter got all 3 saving throw boosters for free, and could use it without giving up expertise dice, it'd be overpowered. As it is, getting a bonus to saves in exchange for damage or other effects is honestly on the weak end of what maneuvers should be doing, and is hardly worth a slot in your extremely limited maneuver selection.

 
My comments, short and sweet.

• Fix Rogue, Ed is okay but needs better manuevers and different mechanic for getting and using ED to make rogues more unique. Rogue schemes don't impact character feel as effectively as fighter styles, cleric deities, and wizard traditions do.

• Some manuevers are either pointless or broken

• Skill mastery is broken, lame, and breaks Bounded accuracy

• Traditions are great but need just a little bit more individuality

• Too many pointless and redundant skills

• Keep specialties flavourful and feeding Exploration pillar


Those were my only negative comments.  Everything else I was highly positive about, and made sure they knew it!

Unfortunately no place to comment about the racial imablance....

My mind is a deal-breaker.

I kind of gave most of the survey a cursory glance except for the section on specialities, were I really let them know how thoroughly dissatisfied I was with them. I'm hoping that we get enough people echoing my comments, because I know I'm far from the only person who feels this way.
D&D Experience Level: Relatively new First Edition: 4th Known Editions: 4th, 3.5 --- Magic Experience Level: Fairly skilled First Expansion: 7th Edition Play Style: Very Casual
My gripes were the too similar to the Fighter that is Rogue, the messy/scattered Wizard, Monster accuracy (bring back the generic +2 bonus from the 1st playtest packet, the best one so far), Disarm, Disengage, and trepidations about manoeuvres (bloat, Expertise dice getting gimmicky).

Aside from that (basically, classes), I am seriously digging 5th Ed.



Yeah, I agree. My survey can easily be summed up with "Classes need a LOT of work, Monsters need a bit of a push, and everything else is awesome."
My biggest gripes were the fact that most expertise dice uses are terrible compared to what are effectivly mandatory choices that may as well be baked into the base class design along with the fact that monster math is so bad that we can't really test any of the rest of the major combat sub-systems.

Also strongly dislike vancian with a handful of spells AND rituals please choose one way or the other not the current mish mash of spellcaster design philosophies.
I'm waiting to fill mine out until I can playtest it this weekend :P
My two copper.
Clerics are prety good, but Turn Undead is too complicated.

Wizards are okay, but Traditions need improvements.

Spells have so much to discuss I didn't even bother.

Fighters are bad. They're boring again.

Rogues are terrible. They're worse than Fighters.

Fighting Styles and Rogue Schemes need to be more than just maneuver packages.

Maneuvers, hate the way they did them. Spending expertise dice on everything ssucks.

Specialties are pointless. Unless they make them do something, they should get rid of them because it just makes them add filler feats.

Feats are mostly bad. Some feats are nice but the rest of them are boring, redundant, situational, or worse. They need to make up their mind on what feats are for and balance them appropriately.

Magic items are all over the place. We need gold prices and item levels before we can even start fixing them.


They didn't even ask about races or equipment. I hope they already know they need to be worked on.

I just filled out the entire survey without hitting the satisfied or very satisfied buttons once. I think every comment box included the words: lame, boring, mundane, non-heroic. I'm also fully on board with Garthanos' comment that Fighters and Rogues having climatic and strategic powers is a must and listed that in several comment boxes.
...whatever
I just filled out the entire survey without hitting the satisfied or very satisfied buttons once.




Thank god there are people like me to offset that (the crusade...).



I have minions(my home group and the local RPGA) echoing my sentiments, filling out these surveys despite having given up on 5E entirely.  There is more than one crusade.
...whatever

I have minions(my home group and the local RPGA) echoing my sentiments, filling out these surveys despite having given up on 5E entirely.  There is more than one crusade.



If you've "given up on 5E entirely", but you're still filling out the survey due to some self-serving "crusade", then it sounds more like sour grapes or intentional sabotage than anything that could ever be remotely helpful. If you've truly given up on 5E entirely, then just let it be for those of us who have NOT given up on it.

I have minions(my home group and the local RPGA) echoing my sentiments, filling out these surveys despite having given up on 5E entirely.  There is more than one crusade.



If you've "given up on 5E entirely", but you're still filling out the survey due to some self-serving "crusade", then it sounds more like sour grapes or intentional sabotage than anything that could ever be remotely helpful. If you've truly given up on 5E entirely, then just let it be for those of us who have NOT given up on it.



They have given up, not me. They are filling out the surveys to express their own satisfaction with 5E(mostly from earlier playtests before they gave up in disgust) and as a personal favor to me, who is still following things.
...whatever

I have minions(my home group and the local RPGA) echoing my sentiments, filling out these surveys despite having given up on 5E entirely.  There is more than one crusade.



If you've "given up on 5E entirely", but you're still filling out the survey due to some self-serving "crusade", then it sounds more like sour grapes or intentional sabotage than anything that could ever be remotely helpful. If you've truly given up on 5E entirely, then just let it be for those of us who have NOT given up on it.




Exactly, I always warn them in my feedback to be wary of "play-testers" such as those...


Does nothing to help the future of this game. 



Yes it does. It gives WotC an opinion different than yours. The whole point of this playtest is for opinions to be shared. WotC can do whatever they want with it, and you're free to exercise your ignore list for anyone whose opinions you do not want to read. It's not your place to tell him that what kind of feedback is good feedback. 

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

The one thing I forgot to talk about was Turn Undead, probably because I ran out of room talking about domains.  Turn Undead as it stands is confusing, difficult to adjudicate, and just nonsensical.  There's way too much math involved, quite a lot of metagaming (so how many hit points does x have?), and it doesn't have any relation to any version of the spell ever. 

Something simple like "Undead within the AoE that are your level or lower are destroyed, and higher than your level can't do X, Y or Z for five minutes" would be much appreciated.  Simple, easy, and the AoE is a 15 foot cone so it's not THAT big an area to where you'll autowin an encounter.
The one thing I forgot to talk about was Turn Undead, probably because I ran out of room talking about domains.  Turn Undead as it stands is confusing, difficult to adjudicate, and just nonsensical.  There's way too much math involved, quite a lot of metagaming (so how many hit points does x have?), and it doesn't have any relation to any version of the spell ever. 

Something simple like "Undead within the AoE that are your level or lower are destroyed, and higher than your level can't do X, Y or Z for five minutes" would be much appreciated.  Simple, easy, and the AoE is a 15 foot cone so it's not THAT big an area to where you'll autowin an encounter.



Ok, it's really easy. You start with Hit dice X, divide by number of undead Y. Then adjust for the lighting and wind current in the room, as well as the velocity of holy energy (factoring in its momentum as well as the pull from the planet's gravitational field). Go ahead and multiply that by the natural log of 10, and bam presto. Dead undead....I think. *reviews calculations*.
My two copper.

I have minions(my home group and the local RPGA) echoing my sentiments, filling out these surveys despite having given up on 5E entirely.  There is more than one crusade.



If you've "given up on 5E entirely", but you're still filling out the survey due to some self-serving "crusade", then it sounds more like sour grapes or intentional sabotage than anything that could ever be remotely helpful. If you've truly given up on 5E entirely, then just let it be for those of us who have NOT given up on it.



Yeah, it couldn't possibly have anything to do with wanting 5E to be a game we can play or anything. If we disagree its 'sabotage'...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The one thing I forgot to talk about was Turn Undead, probably because I ran out of room talking about domains.  Turn Undead as it stands is confusing, difficult to adjudicate, and just nonsensical.  There's way too much math involved, quite a lot of metagaming (so how many hit points does x have?), and it doesn't have any relation to any version of the spell ever. 

Something simple like "Undead within the AoE that are your level or lower are destroyed, and higher than your level can't do X, Y or Z for five minutes" would be much appreciated.  Simple, easy, and the AoE is a 15 foot cone so it's not THAT big an area to where you'll autowin an encounter.



Ok, it's really easy. You start with Hit dice X, divide by number of undead Y. Then adjust for the lighting and wind current in the room, as well as the velocity of holy energy (factoring in its momentum as well as the pull from the planet's gravitational field). Go ahead and multiply that by the natural log of 10, and bam presto. Dead undead....I think. *reviews calculations*.



Gravity and Spiritual energy don't interact, though the gravity might affect the angle of the holy symbol. It might also affect how badly the undead have to be affected to be harmed. Lower in zero G than in normal G...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.

I have minions(my home group and the local RPGA) echoing my sentiments, filling out these surveys despite having given up on 5E entirely.  There is more than one crusade.



If you've "given up on 5E entirely", but you're still filling out the survey due to some self-serving "crusade", then it sounds more like sour grapes or intentional sabotage than anything that could ever be remotely helpful. If you've truly given up on 5E entirely, then just let it be for those of us who have NOT given up on it.



How is saying "This playtest represents a game I find in no way appealing, this is what would need to change to make me like it" not good feedback? Only people who think the playtest is in a good place already should bother responding? **** that. That's the kind of logic that leads to an echo chamber and gets us a fractured fanbase as you only appeal to a small segment of the target audience. 
It's the part where he's lying, either to himself or to us, about having given up on 5e entirely.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
It's the part where he's lying, either to himself or to us, about having given up on 5e entirely.



Did you miss the part where he said he has not given up on 5e, it was the rest of his gaming group who had?


And either way, the group had given up on it due to not liking what the playtest indicated. If the playtest's next packet suddenly showed a 180 and made a game they would enjoy, I doubt they'd shrug their shoulders and say "too little too late". Feedback saying "I don't like this" is every bit as important as anything else. 
Dangling modifiers - even if he meant his group and not him, that wasn't clear.

Also, he's said likewise elsewhere.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Im still routing for the game and hoping to see some structure along side the creative splashes and actually the use of maneuvers by rogues and fighters is a good sign to me.

(have not given up --- still worried)
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

lame, boring, mundane, non-heroic.


I really really hope you provided more detail than you have in your forum posts.  Despite a few weeks of repeating these words, I still have absolutely no idea what you're actually asking them to do.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
It's the part where he's lying, either to himself or to us, about having given up on 5e entirely.



I was talking about other people, who have given up, being talked into continuing to provide negative feedback despite having given up. 
...whatever
It's the part where he's lying, either to himself or to us, about having given up on 5e entirely.



I was talking about other people, who have given up, being talked into continuing to provide negative feedback despite having given up. 




So providing negative feedback without actually having tested anything...If I did this in my job, being a tester, I would be fired.  Good to know your contaminating the responses with people that haven't even played the material.  I'm not even going to be filling out the thing until probably next weekend after I get a chance to do a quick game with some people (last weekend was out due to regularly scheduled game and this weekend is out due to my nieces birthday which I have to travel for) so we can actually see the thing in action.  Providing feedback right now would be faulty because I haven't actually tested anything.  Essentially I have looked at the code, don't fully understand it, and have yet to execute any tests in any environment.  Saying good or bad at the moment would be a faulty response.
I've removed content from this thread. Baiting/Trolling is a violation of the Code of Conduct.

You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct

Remember to keep your posts polite and on topic and refrain from personal attacks. 
It's the part where he's lying, either to himself or to us, about having given up on 5e entirely.



I was talking about other people, who have given up, being talked into continuing to provide negative feedback despite having given up. 




So providing negative feedback without actually having tested anything...If I did this in my job, being a tester, I would be fired.  Good to know your contaminating the responses with people that haven't even played the material.  I'm not even going to be filling out the thing until probably next weekend after I get a chance to do a quick game with some people (last weekend was out due to regularly scheduled game and this weekend is out due to my nieces birthday which I have to travel for) so we can actually see the thing in action.  Providing feedback right now would be faulty because I haven't actually tested anything.  Essentially I have looked at the code, don't fully understand it, and have yet to execute any tests in any environment.  Saying good or bad at the moment would be a faulty response.



They rejected 5E on a fundamental level having experienced the first(and to a lesser extent the second) playtest). Things haven't fundamentally changed, so the rejection stands. That they haven't been following the specifics doesn't change anything about their continuing rejection of the continued presence of what they hated about the Next they did playtest. 
...whatever