Ancient Walkers

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 not being a 'walker makes Yawgmoth's achievements (however horrible) all the more impressive. 




+1
At the end of The thran, Yawgmoth is planning to extract a spark. He lost the walker he planned to use, but he had plenty of time to find a new 'walker. Now, there's probably a "freely given" clause there, but given the mind control Yawgmoth had on Urza, he could work around that.

I'm willing to ignore the confined to the 9th sphere on the grounds that Yawgmoth, legendary creature is, in my opinion, extremely lame. He should be a role model for aspiring young black planeswalkers/players, not something that dies to final judgement. I'm willing to fill in blanks to give Yawgmoth more power.



He was planning to extract it... if he could find the gland that held the spark, but just like all phyrexians, Yawgmoth had no conception or gave any weight to the immaterial. He didn't believe in the soul, pretty well cementing that he never understood how walkers worked to begin with. Aside from that, if he was going to get a spark, he had Leshrac trapped for hundreds of years. If he could extract it from Leshrac, he simply could not extract it.

And no, you don't get to ignore it just because you don't like it. You have to provide contradictory evidence if you're going to make any headway and that evidence simply does not exist for which you to base your assertions upon.
Quite frankly, deal with it.

If you tried making a legendary creature based on Yawgmoth... well, simply put, you wouldn't be able to. There's no way it would be anything other than staggeringly overpowered. 

When someone in YMTC tried to make a 'Walker card for Yawgy a few days ago, I mentioned that it would make more sense to create a Wolrd Enchantment Creature to better confer his status as a legendary being of ineffable presence.

Hahahaha that is a hilarious combination of types and supertypes. What even happens if you give a creature the World supertype? Can the rules even do that?

I love it. There's something delightfully Phyrexian about it.



And yeah, when Yawgmoth stabbed Dyfed in the head and scrambled her brains it was an awful moment in the fullest, oldest sense of the word because a mortal had just pithed a god.

Honestly, at that point, why even make him a 'Walker? It's actually a downgrade in badassery because suddenly he has way more resources to deal with.

...Which is part of why the death cloud thing always bugged me a bit. There was something anticlimactic about Yawgmoth the genius, Yawgmoth the God of Screaming Metal and scourge of the Thran, turning out to be... a big black cloud that could reanimate mulch. It was just... way off theme, and it's one of the biggest flaws in the Invasion Cycle, in my opinion. 
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It wasn't that The Ineffable couldn't extract the spark before he was interrupted.

HE COULDN'T FIND IT.

The Spark isn't in the material world, and its theft was beyond even His means.

The Lord of the Wastes was never a Planeswalker.

He was a GOD.

Even his spells are broken, banned manifestations of ruin. If you tried making a legendary creature based on Yawgmoth... well, simply put, you wouldn't be able to. There's no way it would be anything other than staggeringly overpowered. 


I'm willing to accept this.
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57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
Similar to why they never tried to make Planeswalker cards back then.
The beings were simply too powerful to be adequately represented in card form. 

It occurs to me that someone might bring up the titans as a counterpoint to this, to which I need to stress:
The Eldrazi titans as they are now are not at full power. They are still shackled by the Lithomancer's seal. 
And no, you don't get to ignore it just because you don't like it. You have to provide contradictory evidence if you're going to make any headway and that evidence simply does not exist for which you to base your assertions upon.
Quite frankly, deal with it.


I think there's a difference between saying "During this part we weren't shown, It would have been cool if character did this that he had the means to do, wanted to do, and it doesn't contradict anything explicitly said" and "I don't want this character to be alive and I don't like this writer so I'm going to say the super-powerful being was mistaken."

*I am Pro on Yawgmoth being dead or needing something elaborate to return. Just saying "he didn't really die" after so much effort to kill him was lame.

So on the Yawgmoth, sparkstealer theory;

Motive: He wanted it.

Means: Mind control is within his grasp. He can clearly capture a planeswalker. Given that both Venser and Urza would able to do this without a ritual, and the Glissa/Slobad thing, I think transferring sparks is an innate thing that all planeswalkers know. I'm unaware of any evidence that transferring a spark is hard. If it is, this theory is less likely.

Opportunity: I don't remember anything very explicit about what Yawgmoth did between the Thran and the brothers breaking the barrier.
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My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
I'm unaware of any evidence that transferring a spark is hard. If it is, this theory is less likely.



 Memnarch converted the entirety of Mirrodin's core into a spark-transferal machine.
It took a machine the size of a small planet to transfer a spark.

If you tried making a legendary creature based on Yawgmoth... well, simply put, you wouldn't be able to. There's no way it would be anything other than staggeringly overpowered. 

When someone in YMTC tried to make a 'Walker card for Yawgy a few days ago, I mentioned that it would make more sense to create a Wolrd Enchantment Creature to better confer his status as a legendary being of ineffable presence.


Hahahaha that is a hilarious combination of types and supertypes. What even happens if you give a creature the World supertype? Can the rules even do that?

I love it. There's something delightfully Phyrexian about it.

Functionally, it'd be similar to a legendary creature as the World Enchantments has a sort of "quasi-legendary" status in the rules.  Playing one World Enchantment destroys all others in play.  It was Wizards' first attempt at simulating Planeswalking before Planar cards came along.  If you've not had a chance to look at them, the old World Enchantments were really quite interesting places.  Here's a link to the list

That said, when Lucent Luminid opened up the door for Enchantment Creatures, I thought it might be fun to toy with the idea of great omnipresent beings represented by World Enchantment Creatures that you could escape from by casting another World Enchantment and thus, escape to a plane where they are not on.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

I'm unaware of any evidence that transferring a spark is hard. If it is, this theory is less likely.



 Memnarch converted the entirety of Mirrodin's core into a spark-transferal machine.
It took a machine the size of a small planet to transfer a spark.

And even then, that didn't pan out very well.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

Hmm...Urza had put his spark into his eyes or something, right? I don't know what to think about that. How did Venser do it? Although seeing as Venser skills were in moving things, I may have to concede this point.
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My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]

Urza didn't put his spark anywhere.  His eyes were just how he focused his thoughts (and with them his power).  It was just an emotional hang-up of his that he could have got along without if he hadn't used it for a millennia as a crutch.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

I maintain that Venser being A) a walker B. a teleportation expert, was uniquely qualified to transfer his spark.
Not any spark, just his

And even then, I doubt he knew it would be successful.

He is the exception.
Not the rule.    
You're probably right. Or maybe Karn just sucks up sparks.
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My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
I maintain that Venser being A) a walker B. a teleportation expert, was uniquely qualified to transfer his spark.
Not any spark, just his

And even then, I doubt he knew it would be successful.

He is the exception.
Not the rule.    

Deep down I still want Venser to be some young blonde Urza clone with amnesia straight from an old Metathran Stasis Pod that got lost on Urborg and opened up several years after the war.  I mean, he's dead now so that's not going to happen.....but still.  Both Urza and Venser fed Karn a Spark.

EDIT:  I can see the resemblance.
http://www.abugames.com/images/products/venservskoth/venseremblem.jpghttp://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/planeswalkers/Week1_UrzaMishra.jpg

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

He had Phyrexian Portals and was capable of waging war across multiple planes. He didn't have a "spark." If Karn gets to be an artificial Planeswalker, Yawgmoth does too.

Also, I like the idea that Urza vs. Yawgmoth was a story of a battle between 'walkers like us, not how a Legendary creature killed several 'walkers before dying himself. More recently, it adds something poetic to the new phyrexians' use of Karn.


I completely disagree there. I think the story is more beautiful as a battle between "someone like us" and "someone that wanted to be like us but could not" because he was just not meant to.

If you tried making a legendary creature based on Yawgmoth... well, simply put, you wouldn't be able to. There's no way it would be anything other than staggeringly overpowered. 

When someone in YMTC tried to make a 'Walker card for Yawgy a few days ago, I mentioned that it would make more sense to create a Wolrd Enchantment Creature to better confer his status as a legendary being of ineffable presence.


Hahahaha that is a hilarious combination of types and supertypes. What even happens if you give a creature the World supertype? Can the rules even do that?

I love it. There's something delightfully Phyrexian about it.

Functionally, it'd be similar to a legendary creature as the World Enchantments has a sort of "quasi-legendary" status in the rules.  Playing one World Enchantment destroys all others in play.  It was Wizards' first attempt at simulating Planeswalking before Planar cards came along.  If you've not had a chance to look at them, the old World Enchantments were really quite interesting places.  Here's a link to the list

That said, when Lucent Luminid opened up the door for Enchantment Creatures, I thought it might be fun to toy with the idea of great omnipresent beings represented by World Enchantment Creatures that you could escape from by casting another World Enchantment and thus, escape to a plane where they are not on.

Yeah, I'm familiar with World Enchantments, but what I was wondering is if it's even possible to add that supertype to a creature, even if it's also an enchantment, if that makes sense. Like, is that feasible or would MaGo just ragequit and burn down WotC headquarters if MaRo suggested it?



Also, what Agosto said. Agosto has good ideas.
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Yeah, I'm familiar with World Enchantments, but what I was wondering is if it's even possible to add that supertype to a creature, even if it's also an enchantment, if that makes sense. Like, is that feasible or would MaGo just ragequit and burn down WotC headquarters if MaRo suggested it?



The various dumb, dumb, terrible cards that add snow to things from Ice Age block and Leyline of Singularity suggest that adding a supertype is within the realm of feasability.
You're probably right. Or maybe Karn just sucks up sparks.



That's probably more likely. But even then, it has to do with the unique being Karn is.
He is the gestalt consciousness of THOUSANDS of souls that were absorbed at the moment the Legacy fired. It took THOUSANDS of souls worth of energy to make that spark transferrence possible, as evidenced by Memnarch spark transferal machine.

But Karn is still composed of every single one of those entities that went into his creation. They all operate under the guiding central personality of Karn, but Karn freely admits that Urza, Gerrard, and countless others are part of him now.

So I would say Venser transfering his spark was a unique combination of not only the being giving, but the being receiving the spark. Venser is very likely part of the Karn gestalt now. I don't think he could have tried that with anybody else and succeeded.
So are there any potential universal explanations for spark transferral? A thought has just occurred... Bolas is the last of the Elder Dragons. Several if not all of these were planeswalkers. Is it possible that Bolas (potentially in cahoots with the other EDs that survived the War) engineered the Elder Dragon Wars as a massive interplanar soul-mashing machine to alter the spark/give him the spark? From his messing around with Alara, he has enough knowledge to exploit massive amounts of planar energy (or beings' innate mana/souls) to manipulate sparks.

Is there anything to say he hasn't done this before? If so, this might explain something of the power creep among walkers, the effects of Bolas' initial act of forging/augmenting his spark in the Elder Dragon Wars trickled through the Multiverse.

[/baseless speculation]
Method in the Mythos, an exploration of fantasy worlds, their design and the ideas behind them
Honestly, its just soooooooooo much more likely that he was simply born with a latent spark.
Well yes, but it just strikes me as a potential way of explaining the power creep of Oldwalkers.
Method in the Mythos, an exploration of fantasy worlds, their design and the ideas behind them
Power creep?

What power creep.
The mending happened.
That's why most of the current roster of Planeswalkers aren't demigods.

Before the mending Planeswalkers where shapeshifters whose bodies were extensions of their consciousnes who had effectively unlimited reserves of mana.

Somewhere along the line creative realized that while this was cool, Gods aren't very relatable characters, so the mending happened, and the only noteworthy difference between walkers and non-walkers is the ability to Planeswalk.   
So are there any potential universal explanations for spark transferral? A thought has just occurred... Bolas is the last of the Elder Dragons. Several if not all of these were planeswalkers.



We've been told in no uncertain terms that Bolas was the only planeswalker amongst the Elder Dragons.
Ah, right. Sorry, I thought they were relatively commonly planeswalkers. My mistake, misinterpreting the MTGSalvation wiki's line "the Elder Dragons ruled the Dominaria, among other planes, many millenia ago" as saying they were commonly planeswalkers.

And re the power creep, I thought it was mentioned as such a few pages back. I can't actually find that now, so I'm probably going blind.
Method in the Mythos, an exploration of fantasy worlds, their design and the ideas behind them
An elder dragon is a frighteningly powerful being.
They had power that rivaled that of a godwalker.
Nicol Bolas lucked out.
He enrolled at the god academy twice, now he's two gods.
Points for esotericism.   

There's not a power creep, there's a reverse power creep.

There was a thing called the mending. It was caused by a whole bunch of really bad horrible things on Dominaria that punched a bunch of holes in spacetime, causing reality to start to fall apart.
Whups.
A bunch of Planeswalkers sacrificed themselves to plug these holes.
In doing so, the universe was fixed in a process referred to as "The Mending".
The Mending had an unexpected side effect in that it rewrote the fundamental way a Planeswalker's spark works.

Before the Mending, walkers were Gods.
They could shapeshift.
They didnt need to eat or sleep or breath.
They had unlimited Magic.
They could fly, they were damned hard to kill because their bodies were a figment of their own imaginations.
And they could Planeswalk.

The mending took all of that away.
Now, the only fundamental difference between Jace Beleren and his neighbor is that Jace can planeswalk.   
             
I believe he's talking about the gradual move from "Urza can be killed by a metal turtle or a pissed off angel ripping his eyes out" to "Planeswalkers can do whatever they want because they have infinite mana therefore we have to destroy them in this block where we introduced this concept to nullify said concept."

There was definitely power creep prior to the Mending. And it was deliberate power creep. 

Seriously, the whole "unlimited magic" thing was a VERY late addition to the mythos.
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Ah.
Shows what I know. 
I maintain that Venser being A) a walker B. a teleportation expert, was uniquely qualified to transfer his spark.
Not any spark, just his

And even then, I doubt he knew it would be successful.

He is the exception.
Not the rule.    



I think of Venser as a sort of Barry Marshall to complete the "Phyrexia as disease" metaphor. Or something.
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Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
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Before the mending, it was silly that one could kill a planeswalker with ten bears. Now it works. The story changed to fit the game.
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My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
Well, it would have been rather a large amount/long exposure to Ten Bears. Remembering the Urza novels, there was quite a nice thing of "distract him enough and he won't be able to do anything to avoid death", but with the whole immaterial shebang. The trick seemed to be making planeswalkers forget they were immortal long enough for them to die. I prefer the neowalkers, as it makes more sense for the spark to just be the ability to 'walk, rather than a whole package deal of other stuff too.
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