Rb Burn: Vexing Devil's playground

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Mostly I'm getting tired of seeing 4 Vexing Devils in Red decks.  I'm prefectly fine seeing 1 or 2 copies of him in a deck, but any more seems pointless unless you just want to have a 4 damage sorcery for 1 mana that might just fizzel.



It's pretty obvious what the deck does.  Send everything at the opponent's dome.  Guttersnipe helps to add damage for lategame, while a Furored Cackler is an ideal turn 2 attacker while you start pumping damage into their face.  Sign in Blood gets you gas or can be used to polish off the last 2 life they have left.

Now, please stop sending me lists with 4 Vexing Devils in them.  Unless you list looks very similar to the one above, my advice will be the same.  -2 Vexing Devil +2 other stuff.

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I think I love this pile.

-2 internets for playing a burn deck with no Stensia Bloodhall. Seems like an obvious 1 of. 

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Furor of the bitten Take our 4 of those and add Undying Evil

Protects your creatures against removal while making them stronger, and is a absolute awesome combo with Vexing devil

Oh you choose to sacrafice, in reponse, huzzah thanks for making him bigger and taking damage!

 
I think I love this pile.

-2 internets for playing a burn deck with no Stensia Bloodhall. Seems like an obvious 1 of. 



Ouch, tough critic.  I don't think I've earned any internets so that puts me in the red...  I don't think it'd ever get activated off 20 land though.  By the time it when live, the deck would be gassed and probably on the ropes, but sure, why not.

-1 Mountain
+1 Bloodhall

There pobably should be some Thunderous Wrath in there, maybe:

-1 Volley
-1 Fire
+2 Wrath
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Furor of the bitten Take our 4 of those and add Undying Evil

Protects your creatures against removal while making them stronger, and is a absolute awesome combo with Vexing devil

Oh you choose to sacrafice, in reponse, huzzah thanks for making him bigger and taking damage!

 



Undying Evil doesn't work like that with his trigger.  You'd have to keep Priority and cast if before they decide to take the damage.

In any event, it's a burn deck, thus the creatures are expendable.

edit:
@miilkshake

Yeah, Shaman would enjoy all the burn, I'd even be fine with him munching a Bump in the Night or 2.

I'd gladly nix the 3 remaining Fires for 3 of them.

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LOVE FUROR HERE.

It will catch people not playing around brimstone morbid since you have to do it. 

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"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
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So what started out as a rant on people PMing me with lists for advice that had 4 Vexing Devil has become a pretty decent looking list.  I should make more lists while angry.

Updated list:


Not going to lie.  I don't hate it.
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Furor needs to be cut from that last list. Losing synergy points.

Needs a little more black mana.

Not sure you want annihilating fire back. 

Hate Thunder Wrath. Sorry, Islands.

Maybe a couple more lands and something else to reach with or gas with.

Summary:

I see cuts of Furor and Wrath.
Add a guttersnipe back, add 2 lands.
Add 3 more 'good' spells. Thunderbolt, since we're playing burn? No worse than Searing Spear here.

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"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Furor needs to be cut from that last list. Losing synergy points.

Needs a little more black mana.

Not sure you want annihilating fire back. 

Hate Thunder Wrath. Sorry, Islands.

Maybe a couple more lands and something else to reach with or gas with.

Summary:

I see cuts of Furor and Wrath.
Add a guttersnipe back, add 2 lands.
Add 3 more 'good' spells. Thunderbolt, since we're playing burn? No worse than Searing Spear here.



I think Wrath is ok as a 2-of, definitely no more though.  What's wrong with Shaman though?  He's pretty much a less picky Grim Lavamancer.  Unless you think he's competing with Cackler as my recuring damage source?

So either:
-4 Furor
-4 Cackler
+2 Land
+1 Guttersnipe
+2 Thunderbolt (I could see cutting Wrath for a full set now that I'm thinking about it)

Or:
-3 Mountain
-3 Shaman
+3 Swamp
+3 Thunderbolt

Basicly we have a "Shaman Package" and a "Cackler Package".  Each has their own appeal. I could see MDing the Cackler Package and boarding into the Shaman Package VS Aggro so I'd have the option to slow them down while not loosing on my ability to burn face.
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You misunderstand, shaman is great. Furor is limiting synergy with the shaman since the point of this deck is to have all burn spells be worth value+2 (via snipe or shaman).

Fine with Cackler.

But I'm interested in removing the cards that are stand-alone bad, Mr. Sligh (Furor and Wrath). 

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I should see if someone can make me a cool pic. with that...hmmm "They call me Mr. Sligh" maybe with that sweet new art from Jackal Pup from the Fire and Lighting premium box....

Ok, fair enough.  No problem ditching Furor then.

-4 Furor
+3 Thunderbolt
+1 Guttersnipe

Maybe also switching a few Mountains to Swamps to help run Shaman.

Still not convinced on fully cutting Wrath though, if I'm running burn all I care about is it not being in my opening hand or be my first draw.  Maybe cut to 1 just to make sure...but even then, it might not show up to help me burn through the +5 life via Thragtusk.

Then again, if I'm only worried about Thragtusk, I could easily SB the Wraths.

Something to ponder.  I might just have to sleve this up for casual night just to see how it fairs.  Don't think I'd risk an actual entry fee on it yet.
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Agreed on additional black sources since red only requires R for all spells, black needs BB for Sign.

Wrath has a higher likelihood of being in your opening 7 than you drawing into it by turn 5 to win. Keep that in mind (since 7 cards is greater than 5, of course).

If I wanted to pay 6 mana to do some face damage I'd run 2 Rakdos Return.

This deck draws really well at least... and since burn is really just a goldfish process that means this might be legit. 

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"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Wrath has a higher likelihood of being in your opening 7 than you drawing into it by turn 5 to win. Keep that in mind (since 7 cards is greater than 5, of course).

If I wanted to pay 6 mana to do some face damage I'd run 2 Rakdos Return.



True, but if I happen to top deck it turn 2 or later, I don't see a game going where I wouldn't miracle it
right then and there.  6 for 5?  No thanks, I'd rather have that 1 for 5.

I'm thinking cutting maybe half my Mountains for Swamps to help run Shaman, perhaps a few more.

I'll do some testing and see if those Wrath should be more land.

Right now I can't help but remember Dangerous Wager....it might have a place here as a 1 or 2 of as well....burn up my hand, Wager for gas and it feeds Shaman.


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I always wonder if something like 1-2 Reforge the Soul in lists like these would be too cute.

Especially if you're at 4 or more mana, you can even dump a Searing Spear in response to the trigger before you refill your hand (with proably tons more burn).  Obviously crappy if it's in your starting 7 but as a random something to draw into to really re-gas, it might be ok.
I also looked at Dangerous Wager.

And yes, you'll miracle Wrath on the spot... but seriously... there's a greater chance of you having a forced mull to 6 than you draw into it. That's really bad with a burn deck. 

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Hmm...Juicy burns or play it safe....

Yeah, I'll run it safe.

The question then is: Land or Wager? I think I'm inclined to pick land, but I'll play around with a Wager or two.  For now I'll split with a Land and a 4th Thunderbolt.

Updated list:
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I was working on this:

 

Why is this deck so sexy? It is a real steady 4-5 kill... right when the defense is about to get on the field.

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I'm a fan of t-wrath.  I've been running a 2-of Wild Guess in order to minimize the impact of starting with one in hand, or to filter unneeded lands.  I'm not sure I like sign in blood here, mostly because it stretches the mana base.  I've been running with 8 black sources, and it's sometimes a challenge just hitting one.  I guess you don't have to worry about double red for ash zealot though. 

Maybe consider the deathrite shaman as a 2 or 3 of instead of the full playset?  I'm not sure how i'd feel about drawing multiples.  Unless you think it's that important to try to draw at least 1.

I'd want Rakdos's Return as a one of, at least.
I won't even bother to repost my R/b burn list here as it is far more just strait up burn, but seeing these lists is starting to make me wonder if I should try to run more creatures in mine. Hmmmm... I just hope that there comes some really nice burn spells come gatecrash to try to flush out these decks with some more options.

Anyways... Thunderous Wrath is the same as Explosive Impact except it can be miracled for one, so of course you will try to miracle it whenever you can. And do you think you might be running too many black sources Anubuss since most of your cards either require red or can be cast off of red and you have 7 r/b dual lands in your deck? Or perhaps I am just missing something.

And what does your sideboard currently look like?
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@Niche

So we basically have the same list.  I just have more black sources and run 1 more land.

But yes, our lists are very sexy.

@BigK42

Shaman is a Grim Lavamancer for this deck.  You play him turn 1 and then you just munch your graveyard when you have extra mana or are out of burn.  3-of should be the bare minimum.

@Shadow-of-Rakdos

I run so many black sources because I want to be able to get Shaman running, and in as many copies as I draw.  I do not want all those 2 points of life loss sitting in my 'yard not being used.  Though I don't see where you're getting 7, as I use 11 (4 Crypt, 4 Summit, 3 Guildgate).

Cackler is just good, and there's not enough quality burn to finish someone quickly without creature help.

I have no SB right now, and honestly, I can't think of anything I'd want to SB out for any match up. I'd just use minimal interaction with my opponent and try to see if my deck goldfishes faster than their's.  Counterspells might be an issue, but I've got too much damage at my disposal then they could hope to counter.
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You should play blue for counterspells.  Like, if someone casts heroes' reunion, that's gonna put you back a ways.
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Though I don't see where you're getting 7, as I use 11 (4 Crypt, 4 Summit, 3 Guildgate).



My bad, just got done with a test and wasn't entirely thinking strait.

Counterspells might be an issue, but I've got too much damage at my disposal then they could hope to counter.



Counterspells are not the only issue you can run into when running burn. If you plan on trying to use most of your burn on your opponent then you need to be aware of Witchbane Orb as it will just ruin your whole day. And I believe that if someone really wanted to they could build a deck that had more than enough counters for your deck. You could also consider running Killing Wave as a potential board wipe.
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Wave is a no, sideboarding ancient grudge for witchbane orb is a thing. Or, you can just sideboard Rakdos Charm and have the best of both worlds.

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Yeah, I'm thinking some Rakdos Charms in the SB for game 3 if I saw Witchbane.

I find myself in an interesting position.  My wife has fallen in love with my B/r Zombie-Sligh build and I'd like to pilot this list some time, if only to see it in action for real.  Problem is, I only have the 4 Crypt/Summit.

Any ideas how I might be able to get this list to operate smoothly on less non-basics?  I was thinking some Evolving Wilds (could turn Shaman into a BoP in a pinch later on), upping my Guildgate count, and praying I get my colors as needed.

Edit:

Also thinking of SBing 4 Furor for VS Aggro.  Boarding out Shaman and just go to town with Cackler.  A bit more like my original list.
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Well, you could always go the poverty route, like me. Red is great for broke people.



Crucibles are a poor mans mana sink. 2/2 split on flames/fire is simply hedging on matchup, 2 fire in the board is for zombies. Guttersnipe is for aggro matchups, letting you spend burn on your opponents dudes without losing too much tempo. Instinct is for reanimator/tusk, and torch fiend is for stray artifacts that can be warm body for furor till the 'facts show up.

I'm sure its bad, but it's all I've got. 
After testing, I really feel burn needs Bump in the Night and Shaman, and Sign in Blood is to useful to pass up on, so I don't think I have the option to go mono and get the same results.  Zealots and Shred-Freaks turn this into an Aggro deck pretty quickly.

Here's my proposed altered manabase:

1 Stensia Bloodhall
4 Evolving Wild
4 Rakdos Guildgate
6 Mountain
6 Swamp

Less than ideal and I'm sure to lose some speed, but I don't see any other options.
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Surely Evolving Wilds are basically just your replacements for guildgates if you want to run them?
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Yeah wilds = gates... but also I'd say that you really need the mana to work right and therefore you need the summits and the crypts. I'd only risk 4 taplands since you're trying to finish just before your opponent starts stacking thragtusks.

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How good is guttersnipe in this kind of deck? In my head its a turn 3 do-nothing and you cross your fingers and hope to untap with it.

Am I just playing it wrong? Waiting till turn 4-5 to play it seems late. 
How good is guttersnipe in this kind of deck? In my head its a turn 3 do-nothing and you cross your fingers and hope to untap with it.

Am I just playing it wrong? Waiting till turn 4-5 to play it seems late. 



You have to keep in mind that most burn decks have a significant amount of burn spells (instants/sorceries) which will all trigger guttersnipe's ability, thus making all of them deal an extra two (or more if multiplayer) damage to your opponent. Plus this damage will bypass Witchbane Orb since it does not target the opponent(s).
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Surely Evolving Wilds are basically just your replacements for guildgates if you want to run them?



Actually, there's already Guildgates in there...

Yeah wilds = gates... but also I'd say that you really need the mana to work right and therefore you need the summits and the crypts. I'd only risk 4 taplands since you're trying to finish just before your opponent starts stacking thragtusks.



I'm thinking much the same, so either I only run this when she doesn't want to use my B/r Zombie-Sligh deck or I try to trade for more Crypts / Summits.

How good is guttersnipe in this kind of deck? In my head its a turn 3 do-nothing and you cross your fingers and hope to untap with it.

Am I just playing it wrong? Waiting till turn 4-5 to play it seems late. 



Burn gives me a very high spell count to trigger Guttersnipe with.  Once I start adding more creatures he becomes weakened.  There is a bit of hoping that I get to untap with it in play, but if I do, I immediately get +4 damage to their face.  I feel that's worth the 3 mana investment, more so since it keeps getting value the longer it's around.

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I mean, I know its good, but in a deck that wants your opponent dead before turn Thragtusk, spending a turn doing pretty much nothing seems counter-productive. Its a GREAT card if games go long, but for speed? Not quite seeing it.

I guess it all comes down to testing. Maybe he lives more than I am giving him credit for, but in a deck that is burning my face each turn, he'd be a high-priority target.

For speed it might not be so good, but burn just wants to burn, and thragtusk proves problems aplenty on it's own practically regardless of what deck you are running.

You can also look at it this way: you play guttersnipe; he/she plays thragtusk, they gain five life; you play a bump in the night and a pillar of flames, opponent net loss of four; they go to attack you searing spear thragtusk, opponent net loss of six; and so on. 
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He's optimizing the burn.  It'll only be a loss in speed if they remove the Guttersnipe.  If they don't, he greatly speeds the deck up.

Sample:

Say my hand is: Mountain, Mountain, Mountain, Spear, Pillar, Guttersnipe, Thunderbolt

Now, I could:
Turn 1: Pillar
Turn 2: Spear
Turn 3: Thunderbolt
Turn 4: ?

From then on I'm hoping to draw into 12 more points of damage  I have a lot of 3 point burn so it's very real I could do just that by turn 5.

However:

Turn 1: Pillar
Turn 2: Spear
Turn 3: Guttersnipe
Turn 4: Thunderbolt

Now on turn 4 instead of having 3 untapped lands (or more depending on draws) I have 1 or maybe 2 untapped lands, and am hopping to draw into 10 points of damage.  I have a lot of 3 point burn so it's not hard to do, but, as long as Guttersnipe is around, I can draw into less burn and deal that same damage.  Not to mention, Guttersnipe can attack, meaning I can draw into even less damage and still win as quickly.

The only flaw is when they remove the Guttersnipe, and I've already conceeded that that is a speed loss.
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@Shadow: So its more of a hedge against games going past 5 anyway, rather than a catalyst for making them end pre-turn 5.

Got it. That makes sense.

@Anubuss: My meta is pretty removal-happy, so I just assume my guys are getting toasted. Probably skewed my perception quite a bit. Its also why all my included beaters have haste, so I can catch opponents with their pants down for some free damage.
I'm going to do a throw back to my original approach to deal with my crippled manabase problem.



It should be a little less clunky.

I could try it in mono-Red, replacing Sign in Blood with Desperate Wager, but there really is no replacing Bump in the Night, and it's an ideal burn card.  I guess I could run a miser Reforge the Soul, a 4th Wager and a 22nd land but it seems too risky.  Alternately I could run 4 Fires, which seems the better choice, exchanging refueling cards for more burn.
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On turn 4 after you untap with guttersnipe (if) you can generally win the game there.

Some good openers:
T1 Devil, opp 16
t2 deathrite, pillar, opp 14
t3 guttersnipe
t4 You can mix 2 1cc spells and a 2cc spell and get anywhere from 12-17 damage to the face.  Also note that with snipe on 4 you can mix a volley + devil to kill them if they played a shock untapped.

Bump yields 5
pillar yields 4
spear/bolt yields 5... its enough to kill on 4. More degenerately is 4 1cc burns at this point. Bumps and Pillars are huge for ending a game fast.

As the game grinds on having a guttersnipe and deathrite shaman means you can consistently hit your opponent for more than thragtusk actually gains... all without having to go into combat... this is why the deck isn't bad at all. 

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"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Ok, even after a short while of goldfishing, I've come to a major realization.

Once you have used Shaman in a burn deck, you feel his loss when you stop using him.  Quite a few hands should have finished by turn 5 but couldn't because I hadn't drawn Furor, or drew Furor but no Cackler.

Shaman HAS to be in the deck, and Furor for all it's Aggro goodness, isn't for burn.


Edit:

Had a successful night of trading, pretty much collected the missing pieces.  Still shy a Vexing Devil and Shaman #3 (I'd like to get 2 since he's so helpful).  Don't have my manabase sorted out yet.  I'm thinking begging / borrowing / groveling will be in order to get the non-basics for when I want to run this some place while my wife is running my B/r Zombie Sligh build.
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Just found the Grixis list I was playing around with about a month ago. It seems like three colors wouldn't work, but it's mostly just Izzet w/ Bump. Shaman could find a spot, but he seems iffy. Good for grinding out games, but bad on the manabase.

// Lands
4 [DIS] Blood Crypt
4 [RTR] Steam Vents
4 [M12] Dragonskull Summit
4 [ISD] Sulfur Falls
6 [AN] Mountain


// Creatures
4 [AVR] Vexing Devil
4 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
4 [M13] Augur of Bolas
4 [RTR] Guttersnipe


// Spells
4 [ISD] Bump in the Night
4 [M13] Searing Spear
4 [AVR] Pillar of Flame
3 [ISD] Brimstone Volley
4 [AVR] Thunderbolt
3 [AVR] Thunderous Wrath



 

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Use faith in the absence of science, not in its stead.

FR, I was looking at exactly the same thing. Felt cackler was a bad performer. Felt like Snapcaster would be a strong addition.

Still dislike thunderous wrath however. Would rather have some kind of draw spell like Sign in Blood or maybe Wager. 

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Standard Forum - Iron Deck Builder Season One Champ

Favorite Quotes

"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Wrath could probably be something else, but it's hard to turn down a Goblin Grenade. Snapcaster and Augur give you a decent amount of CA, so I think that spot definitely needs to be another business spell. I just haven't found it yet.

Team PMP - Practice Makes Perfect

Team GFG - Good F***ing Game

Disclaimer: This member may or may not be associated with Team GFG in any other regard besides his admiration of its members.

Use faith in the absence of science, not in its stead.