At Will Spells (Lance of Faith)

Don't get me wrong, I like At Will spells but you have to be careful which spell you allow to be cast at will.

Better yet, all 0 Level spells have to nerfed in such a way that they cannot be abbused.


For instance. Lance of Faith currently deals 1d8 +4 damage. Why would a cleric of Lathander ever use a weapon? When his spell deals better damage?

I respect this concept for wizard but doesn't that seem strange to you for a class that wears heavy armor, and wields shields and maces?

I could unserstand if we were building a 'scholarly cleric', but if that were the case, he should loose the proficiency in armor and shields.

What do you guys think?
The idea is that you don't need to use a weapon.  You can go Wis, Con, and mabey Cha, dump Str and Dex, and still be fine.

Or you can skip it, go Str or Dex and beat people over the head with big sticks.

It's an option.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Because a fighter loses proficiency with armor if he uses a bow?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I don't know, it just seems very odd to me that someone would wear the armour of warrior, carry a shield and mace... yet never swing the thing in his lifetime and stay out of melee all-together.

If the Lance of Faith is an option... then it should be an equivalent option... not the better option.

So that the cleric swaps around from melee (mace) to range (spell) for a reason... currently the Lightbringer has no reason to ever go into melee. And even if he is stuck in melee, he can use the spell since it doesn't provoke Oppurtunity Attacks.
I don't know, it just seems very odd to me that someone would wear the armour of warrior, carry a shield and mace... yet never swing the thing in his lifetime and stay out of melee all-together.

If the Lance of Faith is an option... then it should be an equivalent option... not the better option.

So that the cleric swaps around from melee (mace) to range (spell) for a reason... currently the Lightbringer has no reason to ever go into melee




Well the clerics of different gods/domains are supposed to feel different. They fight in a style that matches their religious philosophy. So the cleric of a trackster god uses light armor and finesse weapons and can turn invisible. The cleric of a war god wades into battle with hevay armor, a shield and a big weapon. The cleric of a sun god burns his enemies with radiant energy  and bursts of light. And so forth.
I don't know, it just seems very odd to me that someone would wear the armour of warrior, carry a shield and mace... yet never swing the thing in his lifetime and stay out of melee all-together.

If the Lance of Faith is an option... then it should be an equivalent option... not the better option.

So that the cleric swaps around from melee (mace) to range (spell) for a reason... currently the Lightbringer has no reason to ever go into melee. And even if he is stuck in melee, he can use the spell since it doesn't provoke Oppurtunity Attacks.

It is equivelent.

And i belive ranged attacks in melee are at disavantage.  So yes, he shouldn't go into melee.  He's supposed to be a caster cleric, not a bash-you-in-the-face cleric.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I don't know, it just seems very odd to me that someone would wear the armour of warrior, carry a shield and mace... yet never swing the thing in his lifetime and stay out of melee all-together.

If the Lance of Faith is an option... then it should be an equivalent option... not the better option.

So that the cleric swaps around from melee (mace) to range (spell) for a reason... currently the Lightbringer has no reason to ever go into melee. And even if he is stuck in melee, he can use the spell since it doesn't provoke Oppurtunity Attacks.

It is equivelent.

And i belive ranged attacks in melee are at disavantage.  So yes, he shouldn't go into melee.  He's supposed to be a caster cleric, not a bash-you-in-the-face cleric.



I didn't know about the disadvantage in melee part... that makes more sense

Basically what I am getting at is, there has to be a reason for the character to go into melee, else I don't think its fair that he should be able to have melee-like proficiencies. Else you are getting all the benefits of ranged spell-power and none of the detriments.
I don't know, it just seems very odd to me that someone would wear the armour of warrior, carry a shield and mace... yet never swing the thing in his lifetime and stay out of melee all-together.

If the Lance of Faith is an option... then it should be an equivalent option... not the better option.

So that the cleric swaps around from melee (mace) to range (spell) for a reason... currently the Lightbringer has no reason to ever go into melee. And even if he is stuck in melee, he can use the spell since it doesn't provoke Oppurtunity Attacks.

It is equivelent.

And i belive ranged attacks in melee are at disavantage.  So yes, he shouldn't go into melee.  He's supposed to be a caster cleric, not a bash-you-in-the-face cleric.



I didn't know about the disadvantage in melee part... that makes more sense

Basically what I am getting at is, there has to be a reason for the character to go into melee, else I don't think its fair that he should be able to have melee-like proficiencies. Else you are getting all the benefits of ranged spell-power and none of the detriments.

It depends on how you build them.

Str can go into melee (shiled or 2-handed)
Dex can go ranged and melee (at lower damage).
Wis can go ranged (with lance of faith).

Now, you can build Str/Wis, or Dex/Wis, Str/Con, Wis/Con, or whatever you want.  You have flexible options.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I don't know, it just seems very odd to me that someone would wear the armour of warrior, carry a shield and mace... yet never swing the thing in his lifetime and stay out of melee all-together.

If the Lance of Faith is an option... then it should be an equivalent option... not the better option.

So that the cleric swaps around from melee (mace) to range (spell) for a reason... currently the Lightbringer has no reason to ever go into melee. And even if he is stuck in melee, he can use the spell since it doesn't provoke Oppurtunity Attacks.



I see what you are saying.  I think WoTC should add other at will spells (or other level spells) that make it more likely to use in combination with a weapon...kind of like some of the 4e spells (healing strike, righteous brand, etc.)    If a war cleric can cast a spell liked "divine guidance" (I made that up...I don't know if there is or was a spell by that name)...and gain +1 to hit and damage with a weapon... that might give more incentive to fight in melee.   Those kinds of options should exist.


A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

Ranged attacks in melee no longer have disadvantage (pg. 16 of the "How to Play" document). And a lance of faith attack, even though made at range, is not a ranged attack, but a magical attack. The current rules implementation does not describe if something happens to a caster who casts a spell while threatened by an enemy.
Word of Power Word of Power Word of Power. 

A cleric would absolutely use his weapon, and even have a successful build focused on it, by using Word of Power healing spells. Assume Strength of 12.

Lance of Faith: 1D8+4 (no ability bonus)

OR....

Word of Power spell + one of the following

Human Cleric: 1D6+1 Mace
Dwarf Cleric: 1D10+1 Scythe (racial bonus to axes)
Dwarf Cleric Warmaster: 2D6+1 Greataxe  
Elf Cleric Warmaster: 1D10 +1 Longsword

Personally, I'm always drawn to being a castier caster. 20 Wisdom, crap physical stats, just cast spells. But I absolutely love how balanced the less powergamed Cleric is.  
Lance of Faith and Ray of Cold are moronic as atwill spells. My favorite class in 4e was the Cleric after the DM banned atwill magic. The Lightbringer has a laser pistol. Real cool D&D. At will magic should be weak at first level. I wouldnt even make them damage spells.  These spells do more damage than a spear or a dagger crit and make a joke out of casters.
Lance of Faith and Ray of Cold are moronic as atwill spells. My favorite class in 4e was the Cleric after the DM banned atwill magic. The Lightbringer has a laser pistol. Real cool D&D. At will magic should be weak at first level. I wouldnt even make them damage spells.  These spells do more damage than a spear or a dagger crit and make a joke out of casters.

So you're a fan of the Crossbow Wizard?

This seems to be a pretty divisive point.  I personally hate wizards that have to resort to mundane weapons.  I don't mind such wizards being an option, but I want to have multiple wizard options that have at least one at-will ranged magic attack that doesn't suck.  But if someone wants to play the 1st level wizard that has one decent spell, a few garbage spells, and a crossbow, I suppose they should be allowed to.

"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book  
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.

Lance of Faith and Ray of Cold are moronic as atwill spells. My favorite class in 4e was the Cleric after the DM banned atwill magic. The Lightbringer has a laser pistol. Real cool D&D. At will magic should be weak at first level. I wouldnt even make them damage spells.  These spells do more damage than a spear or a dagger crit and make a joke out of casters.


Personally, I love the Laser Cleric. They need not anything so crude as weapons; they need nothing but their faith, and their faith alone.

Personally, I love the Laser Cleric. They need not anything so crude as weapons; they need nothing but their faith, and their faith alone.



 And a Millenium Falcon with a Wookie companion.

 
So you're a fan of the Crossbow Wizard?

This seems to be a pretty divisive point.  I personally hate wizards that have to resort to mundane weapons.  I don't mind such wizards being an option, but I want to have multiple wizard options that have at least one at-will ranged magic attack that doesn't suck.  But if someone wants to play the 1st level wizard that has one decent spell, a few garbage spells, and a crossbow, I suppose they should be allowed to.



Why not play Gauntlet? What Wizard doesnt use mudane weapons? They have always used them in everything but a handful of dungeon hak style videogames. 

Just as a first lvl Warlord is not a Warlord a 1st level Wizard is not even a Wizard.  So if it doesnt do more damage than a critical with a dagger its garbage? Under that logic every weapon that does less damage than a lance of faith is garbage.  You have already cheapened magic to the point where you are bored with the class. Might as well just play Star Wars and use an actual gun if cantrips are garbage and you need pew pews so sate your OCD.  


Personally, I love the Laser Cleric. They need not anything so crude as weapons; they need nothing but their faith, and their faith alone.



 And a Millenium Falcon with a Wookie companion.

 
So you're a fan of the Crossbow Wizard?

This seems to be a pretty divisive point.  I personally hate wizards that have to resort to mundane weapons.  I don't mind such wizards being an option, but I want to have multiple wizard options that have at least one at-will ranged magic attack that doesn't suck.  But if someone wants to play the 1st level wizard that has one decent spell, a few garbage spells, and a crossbow, I suppose they should be allowed to.



Why not play Gauntlet? What Wizard doesnt use mudane weapons? They have always used them in everything but a handful of dungeon hak style videogames. 

Just as a first lvl Warlord is not a Warlord a 1st level Wizard is not even a Wizard.  So if it doesnt do more damage than a critical with a dagger its garbage? Under that logic every weapon that does less damage than a lance of faith is garbage.  You have already cheapened magic to the point where you are bored with the class. Might as well just play Star Wars and use an actual gun if cantrips are garbage and you need pew pews so sate your OCD.  




A Wizard should be a Wizard from level 1. Why play a Wizard otherwise?

If I wanted to play a dude with a crossbow, I'd be a Fighter. Wizards should magic all the time, since it's what they're all about. Similarly, Clerics of a Sun God should be shooting sunbeams all the time, since it's what they're all about.

Really, I don't see what's so shocking about Clerics of wildly different Gods fighting in wildly different ways. A cleric of Cyric isn't going to wade into melee with a mace in hand; no, he's gonna stab you in the back, then maybe flame strike the corpse for good measure. A cleric of Pelor is going to be using the gift of radiance his God bestowed on him to purify evil and smite the wicked. It's the worshippers of Kord or Tempus that are gonna be macing you in the face (or hammering, depending on your taste).

Personally, I love the Laser Cleric. They need not anything so crude as weapons; they need nothing but their faith, and their faith alone.



 And a Millenium Falcon with a Wookie companion.

 
So you're a fan of the Crossbow Wizard?

This seems to be a pretty divisive point.  I personally hate wizards that have to resort to mundane weapons.  I don't mind such wizards being an option, but I want to have multiple wizard options that have at least one at-will ranged magic attack that doesn't suck.  But if someone wants to play the 1st level wizard that has one decent spell, a few garbage spells, and a crossbow, I suppose they should be allowed to.



Why not play Gauntlet? What Wizard doesnt use mudane weapons? They have always used them in everything but a handful of dungeon hak style videogames. 

Just as a first lvl Warlord is not a Warlord a 1st level Wizard is not even a Wizard.  So if it doesnt do more damage than a critical with a dagger its garbage? Under that logic every weapon that does less damage than a lance of faith is garbage.  You have already cheapened magic to the point where you are bored with the class. Might as well just play Star Wars and use an actual gun if cantrips are garbage and you need pew pews so sate your OCD.  




i hate when people pull out the 'dnd-er than thou' card.

firstly, not everyone wants to play low-magic games. secondly, you only have to look as far as dnd's own novels to find that wizards use magic in combat 99% of the time.

i also take issue with your comment about "cheapening magic" (presumably by making it at-will). no one signs up to be a wizard so they could ineffectually plink crossbow bolts at people. people who choose to play wizards do so out of a desire to use magic.

i'd hate to be a new player and have someone tell me "your wizard casts spells, except for when he's forced to throw darts at people."



A Wizard should be a Wizard from level 1. Why play a Wizard otherwise?

If I wanted to play a dude with a crossbow, I'd be a Fighter. Wizards should magic all the time, since it's what they're all about. Similarly, Clerics of a Sun God should be shooting sunbeams all the time, since it's what they're all about.





I think you are using the wrong class. Pathfinder has a gunslinger lol. The current D&D wizard is a throwback to the vancian days when wizards werent called wizards until lvl 10 or 11. Lumping a whim casting 1d9+ damage cold ray onto this tradition defeats the purpose. Its doesnt please the grognards, and isnt going to pull much in the way of new fans if pew pew mage sees the light in film or nondungeon hak videogame.



Its supposed to be a mudane tradition at low levels. Staffs, crossbows darts whatever have been used until AEDU. If you want a pure atwill tradition... Im making one. Should be done in less than a week. The only time D&D ever did full atwill arcane magic well was in the cartoon. If you are going to have atwill magic you ought not remove spell failure, casting time when you already dont have a mana system else its nothing but Iceman and Cyclops. Marvel had a fun pen and paper game back then. 






Really, I don't see what's so shocking about Clerics of wildly different Gods fighting in wildly different ways. A cleric of Cyric isn't going to wade into melee with a mace in hand; no, he's gonna stab you in the back, then maybe flame strike the corpse for good measure. A cleric of Pelor is going to be using the gift of radiance his God bestowed on him to purify evil and smite the wicked. It's the worshippers of Kord or Tempus that are gonna be macing you in the face (or hammering, depending on your taste).



I agree. I wish Clerics were even more domain based. I just dont see how a spell that does 1d8+wis atwill is weaker than a 1st or 2nd level daily spell. Sometimes you have to throw things out because they arent in setting and look stupid. That applies to 1st level laser priest. An orison that has more value than spells two levels above and forces minmaxing to justify a mudane attack is mechanically broken as well. 


i hate when people pull out the 'dnd-er than thou' card.

firstly, not everyone wants to play low-magic games. secondly, you only have to look as far as dnd's own novels to find that wizards use magic in combat 99% of the time.

i also take issue with your comment about "cheapening magic" (presumably by making it at-will). no one signs up to be a wizard so they could ineffectually plink crossbow bolts at people. people who choose to play wizards do so out of a desire to use magic.

i'd hate to be a new player and have someone tell me "your wizard casts spells, except for when he's forced to throw darts at people."





D&D isnt low magic. There are time stop spells and wishes. You havent read novels that feature low level mages. I can give you examples of decent to high level magic users in novels who were low on magic and had to conserve or use weapons. I mostly read Forgotten Realms but I can tell you that was Raistlin for three or four novels.

Not every new player is obsessive about using nonstop magic. Most people today come from the school of WOW, Elderscrolls and JRPGs where if you run out of magic you have to use either weapons or a uniform pew pew attack. D&D is high magic but also had some pre-4e rep for being gritty, and pre-3e rep for simi realistic ranged attacks where you could throw three darts in six seconds instead of one. If you tell folks players that there is no Gauntlet infinite style magic ball they can accept it otherwise they wouldnt be playing a game with such a rep.  Even in Pathfinder where cantrips do atwill damage, the damage is weaker than a dagger so people use ranged weapons.  

Staff of Striking. Magic items are a huge incentive to use melee attacks instead of  Lance Of Faith.
Word of Power Word of Power Word of Power. 

A cleric would absolutely use his weapon, and even have a successful build focused on it, by using Word of Power healing spells. Assume Strength of 12.

Lance of Faith: 1D8+4 (no ability bonus)

OR....

Word of Power spell + one of the following

Human Cleric: 1D6+1 Mace
Dwarf Cleric: 1D10+1 Scythe (racial bonus to axes)
Dwarf Cleric Warmaster: 2D6+1 Greataxe  
Elf Cleric Warmaster: 1D10 +1 Longsword

Personally, I'm always drawn to being a castier caster. 20 Wisdom, crap physical stats, just cast spells. But I absolutely love how balanced the less powergamed Cleric is.  


I agree, I think there is still a place for melee weapons given the cleric's options and I like that there are a variety of builds that are viable in the current system.

i hate when people pull out the 'dnd-er than thou' card.

firstly, not everyone wants to play low-magic games. secondly, you only have to look as far as dnd's own novels to find that wizards use magic in combat 99% of the time.

i also take issue with your comment about "cheapening magic" (presumably by making it at-will). no one signs up to be a wizard so they could ineffectually plink crossbow bolts at people. people who choose to play wizards do so out of a desire to use magic.

i'd hate to be a new player and have someone tell me "your wizard casts spells, except for when he's forced to throw darts at people."





D&D isnt low magic. There are time stop spells and wishes. You havent read novels that feature low level mages. I can give you examples of decent to high level magic users in novels who were low on magic and had to conserve or use weapons. I mostly read Forgotten Realms but I can tell you that was Raistlin for three or four novels.




show me one novel where the wizard spends an appreciable time shooting crossbows at people for want of a spell and i'll show you 50 where it never happens once.


Not every new player is obsessive about using nonstop magic. Most people today come from the school of WOW, Elderscrolls and JRPGs where if you run out of magic you have to use either weapons or a uniform pew pew attack.



first off, this is pure conjecture used to hold up your paper-thin argument. you have no possible way of knowing where new dnd players come to the game from, nor what their expectations are when they get here.


D&D is high magic but also had some pre-4e rep for being gritty, and pre-3e rep for simi realistic ranged attacks where you could throw three darts in six seconds instead of one. If you tell folks players that there is no Gauntlet infinite style magic ball they can accept it otherwise they wouldnt be playing a game with such a rep.  Even in Pathfinder where cantrips do atwill damage, the damage is weaker than a dagger so people use ranged weapons.   



once again, conjecture.

also, no one has ever suggested that at-will magic function like it does in video games. this is a strawman argument used in an attempt to associate at-will magic with arcade-style video games.

in reality, where the rest of us reside, at-will magic is pretty much equal to a crossbow. this lets magic users contribute to fights when they're out of/conserving spells without forcing them to use an actual crossbow. the ability to contribute magically is very important to the identity of the magic-using classes. 

and personally, i find the idea of throwing darts at people to be much sillier than the idea of a wizard being able to cast magic missile a handfull more times in a day than they would have without at-will magic. 
Since the dawn of D&D back in the 70s, weapon attacks have always been AT-WILL attack options, either melee or ranged so I see no problem in seeing a few spells being usable AT-WILL too in the next edition of D&D. Or maybe some becoming AT-WILL as the caster becomes more experienced with these spells as he gains levels of experience. Cantrips or orisons are supposed to be spells cast effortlessly (especially for an experienced spellcaster) I guess so making them AT-WILL at some point seems like a good idea.
Cleric armor needs to go back to being based on domain/deity. It just doesn't make sense for a lot of clerics to have received training in heavy armor. You should probably have a choice between at least two archetypes for each deity (Heironeous is listed under 2 in the packet). For most deities, at least one will be heavily armored, but for some deities one of the archetypes isn't going to be.
I see both sides of the Laser Cleric dilema.   Some like it.  Some don't.  Simple fix...WotC needs to make more varied "at will" attack spells for Clerics to choose from (or dieties grant different ones).  

Some dieties or spells should enhance a weapon attack to encourage melee attacks over ranged or spell attacks.   A war cleric might gain +1/+1 to attack with melee weapon when he casts his "at will" spell, or it may allow the cleric to use Wisdom bonus instead of strength or dexterity to use favored weapon.   An earth cleric might allow the cleric to slam his staff on the ground which causes the earth to rumble towards a target doing damage or possible effect (the effect part may be too powerful..but it does add flavor).   The Sky Cleric might be able to channel lightning or a wind gust that would do limited damage but have a chance to push the target.   

The main point is that there needs to be more options so that DMs and players can play what they like...and variety makes it so that the class doesn't become stale.

   


  

A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

I see both sides of the Laser Cleric dilema.   Some like it.  Some don't.  Simple fix...WotC needs to make more varied "at will" attack spells for Clerics to choose from (or dieties grant different ones).  

Some dieties or spells should enhance a weapon attack to encourage melee attacks over ranged or spell attacks.   A war cleric might gain +1/+1 to attack with melee weapon when he casts his "at will" spell, or it may allow the cleric to use Wisdom bonus instead of strength or dexterity to use favored weapon.   An earth cleric might allow the cleric to slam his staff on the ground which causes the earth to rumble towards a target doing damage or possible effect (the effect part may be too powerful..but it does add flavor).   The Sky Cleric might be able to channel lightning or a wind gust that would do limited damage but have a chance to push the target.   

The main point is that there needs to be more options so that DMs and players can play what they like...and variety makes it so that the class doesn't become stale.



I'm all for Clerics of different gods being almost totally different. As am I all for Wizards of different traditions being almost totally different without them all having access to hundreds of pages of spells. But that's not "traditional" enough.
EVERY DAY IS HORRIBLE POST DAY ON THE D&D FORUMS. Everything makes me ANGRY (ESPECIALLY you, reader)
As a DM, i am not a fan of at will spells. As a player I am still not a fan of at will spells. I am old school and by old school I started out on the OD&D Back in the early 80s then played 1st edition heavily for about 10 years running.

There are some good arguments to the pew pew cleric. I personally do not like the pew pew cleric. The point of the matter is. As with 5th edition or first edition. There have been and always will be house rules. 

Instead of getting into debates and arguments about the WoW crowds and old schoolers. Everybody has their own style of play. DMs discuss things over with your players and player talk things over with your DM.

Nobody is right or wrong in this debate, its a preference of play style. A game or ruleset can not and will not appeal to everyone. If it has a lot of things you like about it stick with it and change a few things you dont. Plain and simple.
 
For instance. Lance of Faith currently deals 1d8 +4 damage. Why would a cleric of Lathander ever use a weapon? When his spell deals better damage? [You also said something in here about heavy armor.] 


In 4th if I remember, that was the option, you either built your cleric with the at-will prayers in place of weapons, or you picked powers that used your weapon damage instead (with added effects). This version of D&D does not seem to take care of that. Isn't Lance also ranged, I don't know I haven't looked? Its that heavy armor, medium armor trade off too, but again you are saying you just get Heavy armor regardless. Remember Playtest Packet 2 (or was it 1) where the cleric went down two different paths. Or when you say Lathander you are implying one of the deities. I see. Okay We'll figure this out.
 

AD&D 1st Edition Character (Simplified)

BIOGRAPHY
Name: Brother Michael
Adventuring Class: Cleric
Adventuring Experience: 1446 out of 1501
Bonus Experience: 10%
Languages Known: Common, Orc, Elven.
Alignment: Lawful/Neutral Good
ABILITY SCORES
Strength: 10
Dexterity: 10
Intelligence: 11
Charisma: 11
Constitution: 14
Wisdom: 16
WEAPONS: HIT; MEDIUM; LARGE
Footman’s Flail: 1d20; 1d6+1; 1d4
Hammer (Thrown): 1d20; 1d4+1; 1d4
Sling: 1d20-3; 1d4+1; 1d6+1
MAGIC
Today’s Prepared Spells: Cure Light Wounds x2, Command x1
Spells Spent: Cure Light Wounds x1
Other Cleric Abilities: Turn Undead
Spell Failure: 0%
Magical Attack Adjustment: +2
DEFENSES
Armor: 5 (-4 Armor, -1 Shield)
Maximum Health: 10
Current Health: 9
CONSUMABLE ITEMS
Water Skin
7 Days of Trail Rations
7 Pints (Flasks) of Oil
1 Ounce (Vial) of Holy Water
4 Parchments
12 Sling Bullets
6 Pieces of Silver
8 Pieces of Twine

Don't get me wrong, I like At Will spells but you have to be careful which spell you allow to be cast at will.

Better yet, all 0 Level spells have to nerfed in such a way that they cannot be abbused.


For instance. Lance of Faith currently deals 1d8 +4 damage. Why would a cleric of Lathander ever use a weapon? When his spell deals better damage?

I respect this concept for wizard but doesn't that seem strange to you for a class that wears heavy armor, and wields shields and maces?

I could unserstand if we were building a 'scholarly cleric', but if that were the case, he should loose the proficiency in armor and shields.

What do you guys think?

In the Jan 2013 playtest, Lance of Faith is now 2d6 radiant damage; in our session last night, the cleric was lasering beasties left & right.

It seems to me that this spell, as powerful a cantrip as it is, should have some manner of cooldown associated with it. e.g., use 1 round, wait 2 rounds for 'divine recharge', then use again.

re: the "to hit" ... would the caster use their DEX modifier as a bonus to hit? And someone mentioned that, if the target was in melee range (what is that range, 5 feet?) the attack is made at disadvantage, is that correct?
2d6 damage is an average of 7 damage.
A bow shot deals 1d8 + Dex + martial dice. That's usually 1d8 + 3 + 1d6 or (4.5 + 3 + 3.5 =  11 damage).
At already a 64% effectiveness of a martial attack, I don't see why Radiant Lance needs more scaling back.
2d6 damage is an average of 7 damage.
A bow shot deals 1d8 + Dex + martial dice. That's usually 1d8 + 3 + 1d6 or (4.5 + 3 + 3.5 =  11 damage).
At already a 64% effectiveness of a martial attack, I don't see why Radiant Lance needs more scaling back.



From a damage output perspective, you're right.  BUT, there are other factors to consider.  Firing a bow means that you're not using a shield.  That's a bit of AC you're sacrificing.  I think the OP has a concern with: shield + melee weapon, if the opponent closes, and then spell casting as your primary attack, as opposed to actually using the weapon in hand. *shrugs*
In my groups, we actually buffed lance of faith from the 2d8 to 3d6. Even then, I think the advantages of being in melee outweigh the raw damage lance of faith provides.