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SereneChaos
Joined Apr 2010
4215 Posts
So, after noticing that Frenetic Efreet has been re-errata'd to his original functionality, I'm lookint into building the Efreet+Chance Encounter deck.

The thing is, at a tournament, if I announce that I'm activating the ability a trillion times, do I have to flip a trillion coins, or can my opponent and I just assume that I'm going to win at least 10 of those coin flips?

Rationality tells me that I have to flip all of them, because it is a random outcome and can't be assumed, but really, does an event ever become so likely that we can shortcut it?
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
ikegami
Joined Nov 2007
2271 Posts
does an event ever become so likely that we can shortcut it?

No.

ikegami
Joined Nov 2007
2271 Posts
You can even be found guilty of Slow Play for simply attempting this in a tourney.

It is also slow play if a player continues to execute a loop without being able to provide an exact number of iterations and the expected resulting game state.

SereneChaos
Joined Apr 2010
4215 Posts
You can even be found guilty of Slow Play for simply attempting this in a tourney.

It is also slow play if a player continues to execute a loop without being able to provide an exact number of iterations and the expected resulting game state.

But I can provide both of those.

"My number if iterations is one million, and the expected gamestate is that my Efreet will either phase or be sacced, and my Chance Encounter will gain at least 10 luck counters".
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
cyphern
Joined Jan 2003
19350 Posts
and the expected gamestate is that my Efreet will either phase or be sacced

Which is it, phased or sacced? If you can't say which one, then you are not telling us the expected gamestate, you're telling us a list of possible gamestates.
and my Chance Encounter will gain at least 10 luck counters

First, "at least 10 luck counters" is not a gamestate, it is a list of possible gamestates (in fact, it's a list of just shy of a million gamestates). Secondly, while it is quite likely you'll get 10 luck counters in 1 million flips, it is not guaranteed.
EyeHunter
Joined Jan 2007
3611 Posts
You can even be found guilty of Slow Play for simply attempting this in a tourney.

It is also slow play if a player continues to execute a loop without being able to provide an exact number of iterations and the expected resulting game state.

Isn't the intent of this rule to prevent endlessly activating Orochi Leafcaller or such? The intent here is markedly different.
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My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
cyphern
Joined Jan 2003
19350 Posts

Isn't the intent of this rule to prevent endlessly activating Orochi Leafcaller or such?

It may do that too, but the rule is definitely applicable to cases like the one serenechaos is asking about. In fact, the rule has actually been coming up recently in legacy tournaments, involving repeated milling + emrakul (see also toby elliott's take on the rule).
Shard_Fenix
Joined Jan 2011
4149 Posts
Yes but in the horsemen deck, it's possible to mess it up by doing something wrong with part of your combo. It's not possible to mess up the Frenetic Efreet combo (in fact, the entire combo is mandatory after you activate the ability). Anyone can see that, given enough activations, chance encounter will have at least ten luck counters on it. You can pick a number high enough to statistically guarantee that you will get ten wins aroudn the time a Boltzmann Brain appears.

The alternative is to flip once, perform the outcome, then apply a shortcut.

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

ikegami
Joined Nov 2007
2271 Posts
But I can provide both of those.

"My number if iterations is one million, and the expected gamestate is that my Efreet will either phase or be sacced, and my Chance Encounter will gain at least 10 luck counters".

No, you can't. "Efreet is phased out", and "Efreet is in the graveyard" are two different states. You also failed to state how many luck counters are on Chance Encounter. In fact, you lied by saying there's at least 10.

SereneChaos
Joined Apr 2010
4215 Posts
You can pick a number high enough to statistically guarantee that you will get ten wins aroudn the time a Boltzmann Brain appears.

But I can't, that's the problem. No number can guarantee winning 10 flips.
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
Shard_Fenix
Joined Jan 2011
4149 Posts
That's actually not true. It's true in theoretical statistics, but in applied statistics, you can guarantee that you will win 10 coin flips within a given amount of coin flip events (you still have to pick an absurdly large number to do so). The only issue here is whether you're allowed to take a shortcut on all of the coin flips rather than having to do the flips manually.

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

ikegami
Joined Nov 2007
2271 Posts
Yes but in the horsemen deck, it's possible to mess it up by doing something wrong with part of your combo.

That's irrelevant. The complexity of a shortcut does not affect it's viability.

You can pick a number high enough to statistically guarantee that you will get ten wins aroudn the time a Boltzmann Brain appears.

That may be, but you can't pick a number of iterations and know how many luck counters you will get then. And that's all that matters here.

If you want to discuss rule changes, bring it to the Rules Theory forum.

SereneChaos
Joined Apr 2010
4215 Posts
That's actually not true. It's true in theoretical statistics, but in applied statistics, you can guarantee that you will win 10 coin flips within a given amount of coin flip events (you still have to pick an absurdly large number to do so). The only issue here is whether you're allowed to take a shortcut on all of the coin flips rather than having to do the flips manually.

Even if that's true, and I pick that number, a new question arises: How many counters will there be on the enchantment when I'm done? I have to predict that, because I can't prove that it would be an irrelevant part of the gamestate.
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
Shard_Fenix
Joined Jan 2011
4149 Posts
If nothing in either person's decklist cares (or the format, but since you're playing chance encounter I assume it's an eternal format), that's easy to prove. Otherwise, you're right and you'd be forced to do it manually.

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

2goth4U
Joined Oct 2007
10322 Posts
Can't I activate the ability 1000000 times and start doing the flips until I get 10 wins at which point the trigger is sufficiently fulfilled and wins me the game on my next upkeep making the remaining activations irrelevent?

I could see it being reasonable to shortcut it at that point.

The Efreet is either phased out or in the yard after the first resolution and it won't change with the remaining activations.

The number of counters would be the unknown variable, but after getting 10 wins or 15 if you want to have a margin of error the surplus counters are irrelevant.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
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K-Mogg
Joined May 2001
3999 Posts
Couldn't a player just activate the ability a million times, manually flip coins until they win 10 flips, then ask the opponent if it is OK to skip the rest?

Realistically you'll only flip about 20 times or so.

Assuming you do this at the end of your opponents turn you should win during your upkeep.
ikegami
Joined Nov 2007
2271 Posts
Can't I activate the ability 1000000 times and start doing the flips until I get 10 wins at which point the trigger is sufficiently fulfilled and wins me the game on my next upkeep making the remaining activations irrelevent?

Couldn't a player just activate the ability a million times, manually flip coins until they win 10 flips, then ask the opponent if it is OK to skip the rest?

No, the rules don't allow for skipping all the triggered abilities and placing of counters that will likely occur. You'd be failing to maintain the game state, and willingly so, so we're talking about "Cheating: Fraud" and disqualification!
EyeHunter
Joined Jan 2007
3611 Posts
So what's a ballpark number on how many activitions he could do, without running afoul of the rules? 30  flips Should be more than enough to get what he needs.
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My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
Shard_Fenix
Joined Jan 2011
4149 Posts
Yes but at 30 flips the chance to win only 9 times is still marginally high. It depends on what number you'd feel "safe" with.

A good solution is to put Sundial of the Infinite or Time Stop in your deck. You'd be able to flip until you get 10 wins, then end the turn to avoid a slow-play penalty.

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

ObligedRain
Joined Oct 2012
61 Posts
45 attempts will still be completed relatively quickly and will give you a 99.967% chance of getting at least 10 wins.
perodequeso
Joined Nov 2009
1932 Posts
No, the rules don't allow for skipping all the triggered abilities and placing of counters that will likely occur. You'd be failing to maintain the game state, and willingly so, so we're talking about "Cheating: Fraud" and disqualification!

We're talking about coin flipping, I can't imagine that any of this is taking place at a tournament.  Which means kitchen table Magic.  I'd allow, at my table, the method that 2goth4U and K-mogg mentioned.

I'm just saying, win your 10 flips and get on with it.

STEP 1: Find your cousin STEP 2: Get your cousin in the cannon STEP: 3 Find another cousin
FrinkiacVII
Joined Apr 2004
357 Posts
Is rolling a die considered a fair substitute for flipping a coin in a tourny?  If so I would propose the following:

Get a couple of those Chessex 36-dice packs and ask your opponent to decide which 3 sides are considered heads and which tails for the dice.  Then take one of the dice out of the box and say "This represents the last coin flip put on the stack, which will be be the first to resolve."  Dump the remaining dice into a box or something and swish them around, them dump them out to "roll" them.  Then roll the last die separatley.  The separately-rolled die represents the first "coin flip" to resove and thus it decides the fate of the Efreet, the others have no effect on the Efreet's phased or dead status and can be taken in any order,  and presumably you'll get lucky enough to get at least 10 "wins".  Of course this requires your opponent to agree to call "heads" or "tails" for all the "flips" all at once, not individually.  But then if he says he won't do it that way, maybe HE is stalling at that point?
ikegami
Joined Nov 2007
2271 Posts
We're talking about coin flipping, I can't imagine that any of this is taking place at a tournament.  Which means kitchen table Magic.

The fact that you can ignore the rules at the kitchen table is irrelevant. We were asked what can be done according to the rules.
ikegami
Joined Nov 2007
2271 Posts
Is rolling a die considered a fair substitute for flipping a coin in a tourny?

705.3. A coin used in a flip must be a two-sided object with easily distinguished sides and equal likelihood that either side lands face up.

Even a real coin doesn't match that definition (has more than two sides), so odd "side" vs even "side" of a d6 sounds acceptable to me.

Get a couple of those Chessex 36-dice packs and ask your opponent to decide which 3 sides are considered heads and which tails for the dice.  Then take one of the dice out of the box and say "This represents the last coin flip put on the stack, which will be be the first to resolve."  Dump the remaining dice into a box or something and swish them around, them dump them out to "roll" them.  Then roll the last die separatley.  The separately-rolled die represents the first "coin flip" to resove and thus it decides the fate of the Efreet, the others have no effect on the Efreet's phased or dead status and can be taken in any order,  and presumably you'll get lucky enough to get at least 10 "heads".

If you don't assign order to the dices (pink dice = roll 1, green dice = roll 2, etc), you still lose track of the game state (even though it is restored later on) because you can't say how many counters are on the card in relation to the number of abilities on the stack.

FrinkiacVII
Joined Apr 2004
357 Posts
Do shortcuts require you to be able to say for sure what the game state will be at every point, or just what it will be at the end of the shortcut?  Because assuming your opponent just agrees to say "I'll pick 'evens' for all dice." then you can definitely count the "wins" at the end, thus giving you prefect knowledge of the game state at the end.  Is that not good enough?
cyphern
Joined Jan 2003
19350 Posts
Do shortcuts require you to be able to say for sure what the game state will be at every point, or just what it will be at the end of the shortcut?

To do a shortcut, you must be able to state the exact number of iterations and the exact gamestate upon completion of those iterations. I struggle to think of a case where you could know in advance the end state but not the intermediate states.
Because assuming your opponent just agrees to say "I'll pick 'evens' for all dice." then you can definitely count the "wins" at the end, thus giving you prefect knowledge of the game state at the end.  Is that not good enough?

If that's what you are doing, then you are not taking any shortcut at all: you are manually executing all of the flips.
ikegami
Joined Nov 2007
2271 Posts
Do shortcuts require you to be able to say for sure what the game state will be at every point

Yes.

A shortcut "can’t include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes."

If you don't know the game state at every point, there are necessarilly conditional actions in your shortcut.

EyeHunter
Joined Jan 2007
3611 Posts
Is rolling a die considered a fair substitute for flipping a coin in a tourny?

705.3. A coin used in a flip must be a two-sided object with easily distinguished sides and equal likelihood that either side lands face up.

Even a real coin doesn't match that definition (has more than two sides), so odd "side" vs even "side" of a d6 sounds acceptable to me.

Check out my cube!
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My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
cyphern
Joined Jan 2003
19350 Posts

I think ikegami is referring to the fact that a coin has a small but nonzero width.

ikegami
Joined Nov 2007
2271 Posts
Many coins have sides other than "heads" and "tails". This non-special penny in my hand has a total of 13 sides on which it can rest. The point was: The definition is loose; it doesn't appear to mean to be restrictive.

Zoidberg
Joined Aug 2005
3042 Posts
Even "flipping a coin" an "infinite" number of times (and there's not even a thing such as infinity in mtg, may I remind you all), it is still a statistical possibility to lose all of them.

Now, the "shortcut rule" in mtg has nothing to do with probability. Even flipping two coins ignoring the results CANNOT be used as a shortcut in the rules to me because, as it has been said already, a shortcut is just a number of finite iterations where the player asking for the shorcut can be entirely sure of the resulting gamestate.

Which is not possible in this case. The only thing that can be sure about X coinflips is that there will be X coinflips, nothing more.

Even if there was an ability such as "whenever you flip a coin, this deals 1 to target player" and another as "0: flip a coin" and that Chance encounter was on the field, you WOULDN'T be able to take the shortcut "I activate the 0: flip a coin ability X times where X is your life total" because you wouldn't be able to tell how many counters would be on Chance encounter. "Simple" as that. :P

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

Bowshewicz
Joined Apr 2012
2078 Posts
I propose a shortcut that can work:

Flipping a coin X times gives 2x possible outcomes (some of which add up to the same number of heads/tails, but in a different order).

If we were to assign a number to each possibility in an ordered way*, then generate a single random number (say, using a bunch of d8s), we can create a situation in which it is possible to "trace back" all the events.

Here's an example with 3 flips:

Possibilities:
0: TTT (0)
1: TTH (1)
2: THT (1)
3: THH (2)
4: HTT (1)
5: HTH (2)
6: HHT (2)
7: HHH (3)

In this case, we'd need only a single d8 to generate the number. With a single die roll, we've determined the entire chain of events.

This can scale up to an arbitrary number of rolls. And it can be combined with FrinkiacVII's method to very rapidly generate a high number of coin flips. If the dice are marked in some way (let's say you numbered them because you knew this problem would arise), an order for the events can be established after the fact.

*For the mathematically inclined, this method generates a number in base 8 that is then converted to binary.
Segoth
Joined Dec 2010
1128 Posts
Then I'll pose a question for everyone.

Suppose a player decides to retain priority and activate the ability 10,000 times.  That is a legal shortcut because it has a set number of times it's being activated and the end result is the ability being activated 10,000 times.  Since priority will be retained the activations won't resolve and nothing will interupt them.

Now if you were the judge how would you handle the resolution of those abilities?  If your lucky you could have a program that could do 10,000 coin flips, but if not then what?  I certainly wouldn't make players flip a coin (or dice, whatever) 10,000 times, I would probably find a way to improvise.  It may not be an exact science and the gamestate may not be exactly what it should be, but at some point common sense has to take over where rules lawyering fails.

DCI Level 2 Judge

Rockford, Illinois

Bowshewicz
Joined Apr 2012
2078 Posts
That's a very good example of why we're not supposed to use the IPG like it's the CR.
Dilleux_Lepaire
Joined Dec 2005
9583 Posts
Seriously, would any Judge rule that activating the ability 1,000,000 times is Slow Play? It's a legal move. It shouldn't be made illegal because of the implications.

Quotes
76783093 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
58331438 wrote:
56945988 wrote:
Rancor dies to in-response removal.
Yeah... Until next game, where it'll be right back. Seriously, there's no way to deal with Rancor in any format. It should be banned, except Gleemax is a lobbyist for the Rancor party, so that'll never happen.
You can't ban rancor, it just returns to your deck.
58331438 wrote:
57461258 wrote:
You might want to actually talk to the Flavor & Storyline Board people... since, you know, our whole reason for playing Magic is the flavor. I'm willing to bet you'll get a lot more interest there than in General.
Indeed, both posters down there would be thrilled.
57817638 wrote:
I think I wasn't direct enough in my last post. I'll try to fix it now. Ahem... NO ONE CARES there you have it.
57471038 wrote:
When talks about banning Jace first started, I was thinking that I would see him banned come June 20th. But as I think more about it, I don't really think that Jace is the problem anymore. Sure his power level leaves very little to the imagination (opening Jace is like opening a refrigerator box with a naked girl on the inside), and sure his price does have a strong impact on what players choose to play (playing Jace is like being intimate with a woman and she doesn't charge you in the morning), but it is not the source of all the problems in Standard.
76973988 wrote:
How do people think saving room to print more abilities on cards is dumbing down the game?

Do you really think, say, Akroma would ever be printed if she said, "Akroma can block by creatures with this ability and cannot be blocked by creatures without this ability.  If a creature without this ability would deal combat damage by Akroma would be destroyed, prevent all combat damage that creature would deal to Akroma this combat.  Attacking does not cause Akroma to tap.  If Akroma is blocked and deals lethal damage, it deals the remainder of its damage to the defending player.  Akroma may attack and use abilities that require tapping in the casting cost the turn it enters the battlefield.  Akroma cannot be damaged, enchanted, equipped, blocked or targeted by black or red sources" rather than her "dumbed down" wording she has?  No freaking way.  Keywording and shorthand allows them to make complicated cards easy to play with, allowing them to be printed in the first place.
57817638 wrote:
The creation of praetors was worth it just because now amoeboid changeling is a praetor.
57140668 wrote:
1. cast frankie peanuts2. ask opponent "will you concede the game this turn"? if they say yes, you win; if they say no, play a staying power
3. subsequently ask "will you attack this turn"? and "will you cast a spell this turn"? (using a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for the second question if necessary) to ensure they can't disrupt the combo
4. donate them a platinum angel
5. play a mox lotus and braingeyser them for every card in their library. play an opalescence and donate them a glorious anthem and a blacker lotus, then play enchanted evening. play and activate a mindslaver and then donate them a fastbond and the mox lotus (returning one of the donates to your hand with eternal witness or whatever)
6. during their turn, play every permanent in their hand (playing lands with fastbond) then (as yourself) cast mirrorweave on the blacker lotus, so every permanent becomes a copy of it. proceed to tear up every card they control, and hopefully do it before they notice that they aren't bound by staying power's ability anymore and can concede
82423538 wrote:
57471038 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
One part of the statement being true=/=the whole statement true.
Whatever. I'm still here about ten minutes away. Whenever you want to get destroyed in Magic, I'm available.
I would like to get destroyed in Magic, actually. Do you know anybody good enough?
57617478 wrote:
Please format your statements in a way that doesn't look like a baboon hit its face on your keyboard.
57140668 wrote:
why did Garruk Relentless lose a loyalty counter
Show
to get to the other side
89522235 wrote:
You're such an obvious troll that you have hexproof and : Regenerate.
56957928 wrote:
56776038 wrote:
Dark Ritual being overpowered is determined more by what is done with it than the card itself.
True, but the fact that it enables so many ridiculous things is pretty telling. It's like, sure I can use a shotgun as a bludgeoning instrument, but that doesn't make it not a shotgun.
79035425 wrote:
Shortly before Serra died, she transferred her spark into an angel whose full name was Asha Avacyn Bolas. Her dragon father groomed her for her positions in Alara and Innistrad, and she's also been getting help from her uncle Ugin in the form of Urza, who was resurrected as Marit Lage to be the avatar as which she projects herself into material realms. Grieslbrand is a split personality who sometimes wanders the planes disguised as a human woman named Liliana Vess.
97610188 wrote:
Yeah that (Content Removed) really annoys me. Moderated by MY_self right about naahowwww!
93446159 wrote:
57461258 wrote:
And, as usual, Dilleux wins the entire thread. Nice work, sir, nice work.
99113151 wrote:
They need to make 9 layers of zones where cards go when they "die". Much like Hell.
56778328 wrote:
Wow, holy doggy poop, kids, obvious statement is obvious.
56776038 wrote:
122053101 wrote:
i don't think your geting it WotC is trying to kill the comption to make it so that there shity app is the only one left.
I haven't tried the app. How is its use of English grammar? Cheers!
57471038 wrote:
Everyone's life would be easier if players would, instead of coming to the 'net for help with a deck, just netdeck and be done with it. And I'm not talking about some Top 8 lists, for the Casualists, too, can benefit from netdecking. I've netdecked plenty of decks from the Casual Play forums from users such as Mown, Raedien, Floopfoot, and a few others. I snatched straight the heck out of my web browser. Yes, people, your original idea fell victim to a savage netdecker. You have been assimiliated. Suppose I wanted a Zombie deck. Why on earth would I spend time searching Gatherer for a decent list of Zombie cards when Raedien already did it for me? Taking time to be creative or waiting on people on the forums to tell you why your deck sucks or 'go to Casual forums' is a disasterous waste of time (to me).
56957928 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
If WotC started putting \$100 bills in packs, the players would complain that they folded them wrong.
No, they just spam them with ban requests. That being said, Magic was ruined back in Alpha when they added all that rules and cards [Debutantes avert your eyes]. My friends and I still like playing it the "pure" way (Basically we go into the woods and hit eachother with wiffle bats while shouting made up obscenities. You know, the way Garfield wanted it to be played).
56957928 wrote:
Don't worry about it. I've come up with a list of changes to fix EDH. -First off, there's no commander. -The minimum deck size is 60 cards, and each deck can have up to four of each card, save basic lands and relentless rats. Also decks have no color identity. -Starting life total is 20. And voila, now things are balanced.
89522235 wrote:
Here's a clever play you can try yourself: -Convince friend to run relentless rats.dec in legacy tournament -Get a deck with lots of mill, yixlid jailer, and humility -Drop humility and jailer, wait for him to dump his hand, mill him out -All his rats now have no abilities. Call a judge because he's playing an illegal deck with more than 4 of a single card. -Get him/her banned from competitive magic play
142055101 wrote:
But how to mark them without making the individual sleeve different! You could buy a skunk and slam it's butt on you deck (pardon the french) Then after the game just sniff at your opponent's pile of cards and you will know if any of your cards are there!!!
141434757 wrote:
In Soviet Russia, Sorin opens You
71235715 wrote:
L, is for the leather gloves you weaaaar. O, is for the organs that guy could spaaaare. V, is very very, extraordinay. E, is for every vagrant i butchered in a wine cellar befooooore.
57052258 wrote:
The outer layer of the Magic: the Gathering box, the carton, or crust, is fairly thin and light, and contains largely aluminosilcates. Within that lies the middle layer, consisting of the familiar booster pack. Although solid, the booster packs' high temperatures allow them to acutally move around within the booster box. This flow, sometimes called convection, is cited by frustrated box mappers as one of WOTC's most genious uses of thermodynamics since the Ravnica block. No one knows what lies at the core of the booster box, but scientists theorize that it must be especially dense in order to make up for the large amount of fluff distributed amongst the booster packs.
58232598 wrote:
88993869 wrote:
Torpor Orb is absolutely godawful against Vexing Devil.
whoever is playing vexing devil is probably losing anyways
56957928 wrote:
I imagine [Ajani 3's] second ability involves him hurling the creature at your opponent Brion Stoutarm style, then the guy is just like "Okay, that may have worked, but don't- GOD DAMN IT!" as he does it again because cats don't give a **** :33.
56957928 wrote:
"Do or do not, there is no try." - Albus Dumbledore, The Lord of the Rings.
89522235 wrote:
68978039 wrote:
Its like that one time Elves broke out in a field of Jund. Elves became a resurgent hit, then died off again once Jund adapted to the rest of the field of G/W that it required mass removal that inherently pooped on Elves too. Submit to the menace. Delver can, and will blot out the sun.
Then we shall play in the shade.
89522235 wrote:
I'm sorry, this forum isn't for getting bad advice on mediocre decks, that's standard deck help. This forum is for starting ****storms.
97820278 wrote:
139359831 wrote:
Your advice would only lead me to make generic, boring, and unworthy content. It's of no use to me.
I just got this image of you as an architect, having finished a building suspended by only a small pole in its southwest corner, saying it's original. Then the building collapses.
56957928 wrote:
I for one love the flavor of legendary lands. "I remember my days as a youth at Tolarian Academy." "Wow, small multiverse, I actually went there too." "WAIT, DON'T- Well ****, there's \$200,000 in student loans well spent."
56957928 wrote:
And flavor goes out the window when you cast a second copy of a planeswalker right after the first one dies, so... "Hey Nissa, I need a favor." "You just asked me for a 'favor' like thirty seconds ago, and it turned out to be having Sarkhan Transmogrify my only follower into a dragon like 5 times -which dickery aside also violates some laws of causality - and then you let me get beaten over the head by that hedron crab." "...I'll give you " "...Well all right then."
57150868 wrote:
GM, I don't think Dill is better than you. I KNOW it. Even if he wakes up every morning, clubs a baby seal, steals all the TV remotes from within a block's radius of his house and then robs hungry orphans of their food he'd be better than you, for the simple reason that he learns from his mistakes.
143211137 wrote:
57033358 wrote:
Tamiyo vs. Gideon
What would they have to fight about? Like, all I can think of now is Gideon going "Hey, long-ears! I'm gathering a group of 'Walkers together to fight some tentacle monsters.....you want in?" and Tamiyo going "Ew! Hentai no bakka Gideon-desu desu!" and flying away.
76783093 wrote:
I open 4 packs just to be on the safe side. Not only do I get more cards than everyone else, but I also get to spend the rest of the night off. Win Win.
191752181 wrote:
MaRo has a thing for people opening boosters with bad cards. But since he can only get so many bad cards printed in each set, he has found a devious way of getting more bad cards into circulation: He makes entire print sheets with just bad rares, then puts them onto the assembly line. He proceeds to wring his hands and twirl his evil mustache that he grew for twirling purposes as a lightning bolt strikes in the background. Afterwards, he goes to make sure that the good cards are only opened by everyone's friends, and that we all only get to open bad cards. He does this by memorising each booster, than switching them around accordingly. Whenever someone complains about a card, he immediately jumps out from behind a chair to yell "WELL, IT'S NOT FOR YOU!" before merging back into the shadows in order to devise new ways in which he can screw over players, then claim that he has valid reasons for doing so.
97820278 wrote:
192729031 wrote:
You open a booster pack, and staring back at you from the rare slot is a Lotleth Troll? At least I can stick him in my EDH deck and still have four for my standard constructed.
Because lol troll
56874518 wrote:
It helped that I more or less skipped most of GM_Champion's longer diatribes. I only have so many brain cells I'm willing to sacrifice each day.
192931349 wrote:
Mark Rosewater is sitting in a seemingly innocuous cable TV van, outside of Bankaimastery's house. Sitting nearby are two hardened criminal hackers, fresh out of prison, and filled with resentment at their lack of physical fitness. "Have you managed to hack his brainwaves yet? The set deadline's coming up fast." "We're almost through. It should be coming up on the screen any second." The hacker presses a button, and Kevin's thoughts flash onto the screen. Mark and the hackers stare in amazement at the sheer beauty, the elegance, and the raw truth of what they see. It's like the ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Brilliant light shines across the screen, the truth of existence is made clear to them, and they despair at their own foolishness, their own ignorance, their own inadequacy. And then they steal his ideas. As they return back to R&D, Mark sneers at a haggard old man chained to a cast-iron sphere. The man looks up from his laborious task of breaking rocks in the dungeon of Wizards of the Coast headquarters, and asks a question: "Kevin, my greatest student. He - he's all right, isn't he? You didn't hurt him?" Mark deals him a weighty blow with his boot. "Know your place, Richard. Get back to work."
57023768 wrote:
Now show me on the Garruk doll where Zac Hill ruined your enjoyment of Magic...
63711769 wrote:
I'm only opposed to it because it bears so little relation to how people actually play the game. The example of Miracles is actually a much better one then the Clone example I was trying to use. From the game's perspective, the card can move instantly from face down in the library to revealed in the hand and that's fine for the rules. But in real life, we can't actually do that, so the card spends a good bit of time in locations that are neither where that player's library is nor where that player's hand is. And that's fine for real life. What I don't want is the disconnect to be explicitly codified. Along the lines of
183664.697 A game of Magic as laid out by these rules exists only as a pure Platonic ideal, utterly unrealizable by fallible mortals limited by the confines of physicality and the ravages of evil and sin. 183664.698 The cake is a lie, too.
I know it's true, but I don't want the rules to actually straight-up tell me that.
147137503 wrote:
77120821 wrote:
Pfft this cant be serious can it? If it is please delete your account OP. Its not even close to ban worthy, considering what JTMS and stoneforge had to accomplish to get banned i see the WotC selling magic to aquire Pokemon before that ever happens.
I'm trying to imagine sorin markov as a gym leader in one of those pokemon games which you have to beat him to get his badge... somehow I imagine that he would stab you in the chest with his sword before giving you the badge, even if you beat his pokemon....
196239043 wrote:
Personally, I'd be fine with tea time but then I'm not gonna waste the mana summoning Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. He always takes all the sugar, drinks the whole pot of Earl Grey and doesn't even say thank you. SO. RUDE.

JustTerrorIt wrote:

JuliusPringle wrote:

All I want to do is sit down and play magic, but when I walked in yesterday, (since I didn't talk to anyone) nobody talked to me and I silently bought what I wanted and walked out.

If you don't talk to anyone, that increases the odds that no one will talk to you.

JuliusPringle wrote:

So how do I just... introduce myself? "Hi, my name is Adam, wanna play magic with me?" Do I go to the counter and talk to the cashier?

Yeah. Talk to the cashier. Tell him/her that you want a Black Lotus, and if they don't have one tell them that the store isn't on par with what you expected.

Reach into your back left pocket. Pull out a deck list that you copied directly from some ChannelFireball top 8 Standard discussion, and ask for all the cards, as is, on that list. Then, ask for some random, probably terrible cards from whatever set is Standard legal. Say it's tech for the upcoming changes in the metagame.

Pull out a deck, and tell some random dude you wanna test (you have to use the term "test" for this to work) for Standard. Make sure that deck contains Kitchen Finks and Alluring Siren. Maybe throw in Nyxathid for good measure.

Finally, before you leave, spill (make it look like an accident) one hundred singleton, random cards onto the floor. Pick them up, put them in a pile, and say "EEE-DEE-AYCH".

I know this sounds dumb at first, but it will work. With the method outlined above, you will draw the attention of players that play older formats by asking for cards that no one on Earth can reasonably afford. You will get the attention of the wanna-be pro, Stomp-n00bz players by pulling out a well known decklist and declare that you have "tech" to make it better. You will get the attention of all the kind, helpful players by seemingly not knowing the most common format by having non-Standard legal cards in a deck that you claim is Standard legal. Finally, you catch all the rest of the Magic players by saying "EEE-DEE-AYCH" (EDH (or Commander)).

And there you have it. You will be talking to more people than you would have wanted to talk to in no time.

Smoke_Stack wrote:

EDH is the best format anyway

Break the Card
What is Break the Card?
Break the Card is a regular thread in the Cards and Combo Forum. Quite simply, the participants are given a Johnnystatic card (e.g. Xenograft) and are asked to build a deck around it. The winner and honorable mentions are sigged below. Get brewing!
Week 1 : Xenograft
This week's Break the Card was based around Xenograft. Thread : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27681049/Break_the_card_:_Xenograft?pg=1 Winner : Axterix with his Vampdrazi deck. Finalist : Vektor480 with his Ally/Golem/Plant deck. Honorable mentions : Zammm for the Turntimber Ranger combo and TinGorilla for suggesting Sarkhan the Mad.
Week 2 : Mindlock Orb
Here's the link to the Mindlock Orb contest : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27697565/Break_the_Card_:_Mindlock_Orb?sdb=1&pg=last#497536269 Winner : Axterix with his Maralen of the Mornsong deck. Honorable mentions : Void_Elemental.
Week 3 : Bludgeon Brawl
Here's the link to Break the Card : Bludgeon Brawl : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27715169/Break_the_Card_:_Bludgeon_Brawl?sdb=1&pg=last#498208797 Winner : Vektor and his Grab the World deck. Finalist : Crandor with his Awesome Aliteration deck. Honorable mentions : RP Jesus with his Wat deck and Zix200 with his Signet Renewal deck.
Week 4 : Followed Footsteps
This week was Followed Footsteps : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27748677/Break_the_Card_:_Followed_Footsteps?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Exponential Growth deck. Honorable mentions : Zix with his Carbon Copies deck and Escef with his Fungus of Speed and Time deck.
Week 5 : Delaying Shield
This week's card was Delaying Shield : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27790101/Break_the_Card_:_Delaying_Shield Winner : Tevish_Szat. Finalist : Vampire_Bat. Honorable Mention : Zix200.
Week 6 : Painter's Servant
This week's card was Painter's Servant : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27940861/Break_the_Card_:_Painters_Servant?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Paint it Black deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his Tiger, Tiger Painted Bright deck.
Week 7 : Venser, the Sojourner
This week's card was Venser, the Sojourner : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27977489/Break_the_Card_:_Venser,_the_Sojourner Winner : Izzett with her "Venser, Trickster Trader" deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his "Tactical Sojourner Action" deck.
Week 8 : Personal Sanctuary
This week's card was Personal Sanctuary : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28005461/Break_the_card_:_Personal_Sanctuary Winner : MrQuizzles. Honorable mention : Vampire_Bat and UbberSheep
Week 9 : Sundial of the Infinite
This week's card was Sundial of the Infinite : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28038277/Break_the_card_:_Sundial_of_the_Infinite Finalist : Izzett with her "Afterlife Trespassers" deck. Winner : Xeromus with his "Fortune 500" deck.
Week 10 : Jace's Archivist
This week's card was Jace's Archivist : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28063377/Break_the_Card_:_Jaces_Archivist. Finalists : Jentaru with his "Consecration of the Draw" deck and HereticSmitty with his "ADHD: The deck" deck. Winner : JaxsonBateman with his "The Archives Are Endless!" deck.
Week 11 : Search the City
This week's card was Search the City : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29518555/Break_the_Card_:_Search_the_City Finalist : Mown with "A Thousand Footsteps". Winner : Desolation_masticore with "Burn the City".
Week 12 : Fiend Hunter
This week's card was Fiend Hunter : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29530975/Break_the_Card_:_Fiend_Hunter Winner : Yuyu63 with "Carnival Hunting". Honorable mention : Dknowle's "Champion the Fiend".
Week 13 : Clock of Omens
This week's card was Clock of Omens : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29541549/Break_the_Card_:_Clock_of_Omens?pg=1 Winner : Dknowle's "The Myrs Go Marching".
Week 14 : Light of Sanction
This week's card was Light of Sanction : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29607219/Break_the_Card_:_Light_of_Sanction?pg=1 Winner : Zauzich's "Divine Plague".
Week 15 : Assemble the Legion
This week's card was Assemble the Legion : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29662307/Break_the_Card_:_Assemble_the_Legion Winner : JBTM's "Some Assembly Required".
Week 16 : High Tide
This week's cards were High Tide and/or Bubbling Muck : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29760427/Break_the_Card_:_High_Tide Winner : Mown's "Puppet Strings".
Week 17 : Illusionist's Bracers
This week's card was Illusionist's Bracers : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29776943/Break_the_Card_:_Illusionistss_Bracers Winner : Enigma256's "Tezzeret's Bracers"
Week 18 : Savor the Moment
This week's card was Savor the Moment : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29787235/Break_the_Card_:_Savor_the_Moment Winner : POSValkir's "A Savory Filibuster!"
Week 19 : Grinning Ignus
This week's card was Grinning Ignus : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29795547/Break_the_Card_:_Grinning_Ignus Winner : dknowle's "Luren' and Laughin'".
Week 20 : Transcendence
This week's card was Transcendence : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29806481/Break_the_Card_:_Transcendence Winners : Mown's "Transcending Timing Restrictions" and Dknowle's "Blinded by Greed", tied for the win.
Week 21 : Mortus Strider
This week's card was Mortus Strider : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29818471/Break_the_Card_:_Mortus_Strider Winner : SimonGlume's "Mortus Head".
Week 22 : High Priest of Penance
This week's card was High Priest of Penance : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29917231/Break_the_Card_High_Priest_of_Penance Winners : JBTM's "Two Clerics and a Goblin walk into a (Bom)bar(dment)..." and POSValkir1's "Choke Their Rivers with Our Dead!".
Week 23 : False Cure
This week's card was False Cure :http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29964239/Break_the_Card_:_False_Cure Winner : Dknowle's "When Hippos Fly".

Week 24 : Akroan Horse

This week's card was Akroan Horse : http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4024821.

Winner : Dknowle's "Indian Giver".

Week 25 : Leylines

This week saw multiple cards being in the contest : all of the Leylines! http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4067621

Winner : POSValkir1's "Laying the Battle Lines".

meb9000
Joined Jan 2006
443 Posts
The main issue continues to be not one of common sense, but applying Competitive REL to this kitchen table scenario. Many above posters have correctly posted that the game state is distinctly unique based on the result of each coin flip, so one cannot shortcut through the flips. Common sense has nothing to do with the Comp Rules, they are very clear on what you are allowed to do when it comes to shortcuts.

When it comes to the slow play thing, I think that remains an interesting argument. For that Four Horsemen deck in Legacy, the player is legitimately going through their combo, and as long as they're going through it efficiently, a Judge should understand that a combo is being executed (a well-known combo) and shouldn't penalize players. Slow play should only be given (IMO) when the player is deliberately tanking his decisions or making plays that clearly have no strategic value (like playing the Orochi Leafcaller ability endlessly).
2goth4U
Joined Oct 2007
10322 Posts
When it comes to the slow play thing, I think that remains an interesting argument. For that Four Horsemen deck in Legacy, the player is legitimately going through their combo, and as long as they're going through it efficiently, a Judge should understand that a combo is being executed (a well-known combo) and shouldn't penalize players.

the rules say otherwise
3.3. Tournament Error — Slow Play

Penalty - Warning

Definition
A player takes longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions. If a judge believes a player is intentionally playing slowly to take advantage of a time limit, the infraction is Cheating — Stalling.
It is also slow play if a player continues to execute a loop without being able to provide an exact number of iterations and the expected resulting game state.

Examples
A. A player repeatedly reviews his opponent’s graveyard without any significant change in game state.
B. A player spends time writing down the contents of an opponent’s deck while resolving Thought
Hemorrhage.
C. After 3 minutes into a round at a Pro Tour Qualifier, a player has not completed his shuffling.
D. A player gets up from his seat to look at standings or goes to the bathroom without permission of an official.

Philosophy
All players have the responsibility to play quickly enough so that their opponents are not at a significant disadvantage because of the time limit. A player may be playing slowly without realizing it. A comment of “I need you to play faster” is often appropriate and all that is needed. Further slow play should be penalized.

An extra turn is awarded for each player, to be applied if the match exceeds the time limit. If multiple players on each side are playing the same game (such as in Two-Headed Giant) only one extra turn is awarded per team. This turn extension occurs before any end-of-match procedure can begin and after any time extensions that may have been issued.
No extra turns are awarded if the match is already in extra turns, though the Warning still applies.
If Slow Play has significantly affected the result of the match, the Head Judge may upgrade the penalty

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
DCI #5209514320

My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

deggdegg
Joined Oct 2011
146 Posts
It is also slow play if a player continues to execute a loop without being able to provide an exact number of iterations and the expected resulting game state.

What loop is being executed though?  Isn't the player just activating an ability X times and then resolving them?  There doesn't seem to be a loop.  Why would executing an ability 10 times not be a loop but 10000 times would be?
2goth4U
Joined Oct 2007
10322 Posts
I was responding to meb9000's legacy Four Horseman combo which does use a loop.

Do you think it's reasonable to announce the activation of the ability 1000000 times and let the player go through with it in a tourney?
What if you're down 1-0 in the match and your opponent just announced this?

This type of interaction is what the shortcut/loop rules were made for.
I'm personally of the opinion that he should be able to shortcut the rest of them once he's achieved 10 luck counters, but the shortcut rules don't technically allow that to happen.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
DCI #5209514320

My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

Segoth
Joined Dec 2010
1128 Posts
Mebb9000,
The problem is that in the scenario I gave above, the loop was the activation of the ability.  If I retained priority and stated that I'm activating the ability for 10,000 times, I've proposed a shortcut that has a clear and concise gamestate.  That gamestate being that there are now going to be 10,000 activations on the stack.  The resolution of the abilities is not a loop or even a combo, it's simply objects on the stack resolving.  So how does a judge then resolve this if neither player has another action they are going to take and simply want the resolution of the abilities to occur?  The CR, IPG and TR's don't cover every scenario and sometimes you have to be creative and come up with an answer that would best work on the situation, and lets face it neither the players nor the judge want 10,000 coin flips.

The difference between that and orochi leafcaller is a choice of actions.  I could state that I'm going to activate the leafcaller 1000 times for instance and state that the mana in my pool will be red at the end of that loop and that is perfectly acceptable, but after that I have to take a different action.  In the scenario above I'm not taking any additional actions I'm just letting the abilities resolve.

DCI Level 2 Judge

Rockford, Illinois

ikegami
Joined Nov 2007
2271 Posts
I totally missed this earlier:
Other methods of randomization may be substituted for flipping a coin as long as there are two possible outcomes of equal likelihood and all players agree to the substitution. For example, the player may roll an even-sided die and call “odds” or “evens,” or roll an even-sided die and designate that “odds” means “heads” and “evens” means “tails.”

So yes, dice are perfectly fine.