Hybrid Swordmages: Aegis OF Lost Souls, Thundering Vortex, Radiant Shield

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I Have Concerns/Questions over the durations of the marks granted by these powers. The Problem point for me is the interpretation problems of the former two caused by the Shielding Rider line on Radiant Shield. Ill copy/paste the relevant powers (Compendium doesnt list the Hybrid version of Aegis Of Shielding so that one is not entirely accurate, namely the refresh and usage restriction) I am listing the powers in order in terms of how it became progressivly more unclear for me in terms of the marks duration.


Swordmage Feature Aegis of Shielding

You create an arcane link between you and an enemy, allowing you to blunt its attacks against your allies.


At-Will        Arcane Minor Action      Close burst 2


Target: One creature in the burst


Effect: You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use this power against another target. If you mark other creatures using other powers, the target is still marked. A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.     If your marked target makes an attack that doesn’t include you as a target, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls. If that attack hits and the marked target is within 10 squares of you, you can use an immediate interrupt to reduce the damage dealt by that attack to any one creature by an amount equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier. At 11th level, reduce the damage dealt by 10 + your Constitution modifier. At 21st level, reduce the damage dealt by 15 + your Constitution modifier.



Swordmage Utility 16Aegis of Lost Souls

As one of your foes falls, you send out a pulse of magic that incites other enemies to attack you.


Encounter        Arcane Free Action      Area burst 2 centered on the triggering enemy


Trigger: An enemy within 10 squares of you drops to 0 hit points


Target: Each enemy in the burst


Effect: The target is marked by your Swordmage Aegis power. Marking the target does not remove the mark on another target already affected by your Swordmage Aegis. Using this power does not provoke opportunity attacks.


Published in Arcane Power, page(s) 59.


Duration:   The target remains marked until you use this power ("Aegis Of X") against another target ?


Swordmage Attack 17Thundering Vortex

A whirlwind of arcane energy lashes out to draw your foes closer to your blade.


Encounter        Arcane, Implement, Thunder Standard Action      Close burst 3


Target: Each enemy in the burst


Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude


Hit: 2d8 + Intelligence modifier thunder damage, and you pull the target 2 squares. The target is marked until the end of your next turn.


  Aegis of Shielding: The target is marked by your aegis of shielding. Marking the target does not remove the mark on another target already affected by your aegis of shielding.


Published in Arcane Power, page(s) 60.



Duration: It does NOT say the aegis of Shielding POWER.  Due to that I am infering that the duration is set at the length stated in the Hit line rather than "The target remains marked until you use this power against another target". I am slightly on the fence here though.


Swordmage Attack 23Radiant Shield


Arcane radiance bursts around your foes, searing them while transforming your allies into insubstantial creatures of light.



Encounter        Arcane, Implement, Radiant Standard Action      Area burst 2 within 10 squares



Target: Each enemy in the burst



Attack: Intelligence vs. Will



Hit: 3d8 + Intelligence modifier radiant damage, and the target is marked until the end of your next turn.



  Aegis of Shielding: The target is instead marked by your aegis of shielding until the end of your next turn. Marking the target does not remove the mark on another target already affected by your aegis of shielding.



Effect: Each ally in the burst becomes insubstantial until the end of your next turn.


Duration: Independantly, this one is really clear. The power modified by the shielding rider continues to be until the end of my next turn. However, why is that restatement under the rider line not included in Thunderign Vortex? If its not included does Thundering Vortex get set at "until you mark another target with this power" when used by a sheilding swordmage?  














It means  that except for Thundering Vortex's mark, these marks have a set duration different than Aegis of Shielding (which normally has no duration).

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

"Marking the target does not remove the mark on another target already affected by your Swordmage Aegis"

This is the important bit about these powers, and much of their function is contained here.

If you use one of these powers, it will apply a second mark, that works fully, and does not interfere with the first one in any way.

If you later use the standard aegis power, it will wipe them both.

Hybrid isn't affected by this at all.  Only that if you kill either one of them, then you get the use of the standard mark back, but using it again will wipe the remaining mark.

Edit:  Sorry, frequent edits.  Was a bit confused as to the real question.
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Hybrid is equally affected by this, if you Swordmages Decree - Aegis of Lost Souls - Aegis of Shielding, using your Aegis of Shielding power would cause all the marks caused by Decree and AoLS to end.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Er, perhaps I was unclear.  The question of hybrid vs nonhybrid aegis doesn't affect it.  They both act the same.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
My Original Post is confusing as I do not think I clearly identified the primary question and possibly hinted at a second one:


Primary Question:
What is a mark duration effect for Thundering Vortex used by a shielding swordmage? I copied in those other powers for contextual reference (Lost souls contains the keyword: "power" , while radiant shield defines a set duration)



Secondary Question:
 Does killing a target marked through any of the later three powers (Thundering Vortex, Radiant Shield and especially Lost Souls) Refresh the usage of the (Hybrid) Aegis of Shielding power?
Primary:  EONT.  The standard power applies a generic mark, with the specified duration.  The Aegis of Shielding rider overrides only the type of mark, but not the duration, because the rider doesn't say anything about the duration, so the original power stands. 

Secondary:  Yes, killing any target marked by your Aegis of Shielding restores the usage of Hybrid Aegis.  Note, however, that if you use Hybrid Aegis again in such a circumstance, any remaining Aegis marks will be removed.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

What is a mark duration effect for Thundering Vortex used by a shielding swordmage?

Thundering Vortex's mark used by a Shielding Swordmage has no duration, just like a regular Aegis of Shielding's mark. (RC 226)

Thundering Vortex: The target is marked by your aegis of shielding.


Does killing a target marked through any of the later three powers (Thundering Vortex, Radiant Shield and especially Lost Souls) Refresh the usage of the (Hybrid) Aegis of Shielding power?

Yes you regain the use of Aegis of Shielding (Hybrid) when its target drops to 0 hit points.

Swordgame Aegis (Hybrid): This class feature functions as the swordmage class feature, except that you can use the power that you choose only once per encounter. However, you regain the use of that power when its target drops to 0 hit points or when its mark is superseded by another mark. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter


What is a mark duration effect for Thundering Vortex used by a shielding swordmage?

Thundering Vortex's mark used by a Shielding Swordmage has no duration, just like a regular Aegis of Shielding's mark. (RC 226)


No.  The rider does not change the duration specified in the Hit line.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
No the rider does not change the duration of the mark by your Aegis. A creature marked by your Aegis of Shielding power has no duration unless noted otherwise.

The fact that other Swordmage Powers such as Falcon's Mark and Radiant Shield give a duration for the mark by your Aegis and that the one made by Thundering Vortex doesn't means that Thundering Vortex's mark used by a Shielding Swordmage has no duration.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

And the Thundering Vortex power notes otherwise.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Not if you are a Shielding Swordmage. At least admit that there may be two equally valid interpretation here then.  One of them literally doesn't give a duration as compared to other powers that do when the target is marked by your Aegis of Shielding.


Aegis of Shielding: The target is marked by your aegis of shielding. 

vs

Aegis of Shielding: The target is instead marked by your aegis of shielding until the end of your next turn. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

No, there aren't. Indentations for riders only change the things they say they change. If something from the previous, non-intended line, isn't specifically changed, then it isn't. The line says the target is Marked until EoNT. The rider changes it to marked by your Aegis. But since it didn't change the duration, it is marked by your Aegis until EoNT.
It doesn't say anything about duration in the rider, therefore it doesn't override the power.

Aegis of Shielding, the power, is general.  Thundering Vortex is specific.  The rider is always subject to the power containing the rider.  If the rider doesn't specify a thing, then the power wins, not other things referenced by the rider.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
It doesn't matter if its an indentation or not. Other Sowrdmage Power with identical indentations and effect do state a duration for target marked by your Aegis of Shielding but Thundering Vortex doesn't.

RAW Thundering Vortex doesn't say the target is marked by your aegis of shielding until the end of your next turn.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

What?

Yes it does.  This is the basics of how riders function.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
It doesn't matter if its an indentation or not. Other Sowrdmage Power with identical indentations and effect do state a duration for target marked by your Aegis of Shielding but Thundering Vortex doesn't.

RAW Thundering Vortex doesn't say the target is marked by your aegis of shielding until the end of your next turn.

So you're just ignoring the rules for formating powers then. Right.
No i am not ignoring power formatting. Indentation only means that it is contengent of a Hit.

What i say is that not because the effect is in an indentation that it specifically has a duration when it doesn't say one, since other simlar powers with identical indentations do specifically give a duration.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Right.  The indentation does not specifically say the duration, therefore you go to the one in the power that contains the indented section.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Or you dont and just go with what it says:

The target is marked by your aegis of shielding.  (with no duration)

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

(unless noted otherwise)

Thundering Vortex is noting otherwise.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
No Radiant Shield is a power that note otherwise and say that the target is marked by your aegis of shielding until the end of your next turn when aegis of shielding doesn't have such duration. Thundering Vortex is not.

RAW Thundering Vortex doesn't say the target is marked by your aegis of shielding until the end of your next turn.


Aegis of Shielding: The target is instead marked by your aegis of shielding until the end of your next turn. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

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Thank you for your understanding!

Hey, you know what's cool? Citing rules! Ok, it's not really cool, but it is a lot more constructive.

There's barely any useful information in the rules for Class Feature Riders, the only relevant text tells us that you have to have that feature in order to apply the rider (duh) and that "Many class feature riders are indented and are therefore contingent on another entry in a power." What this means in the case of Thundering Vortex is that the Aegis of Shielding rider is contingent on Hitting (being the power entry it is indented under). What this doesn't mean is that the rider is "instead of" any other part of the Hit Entry, unless the Rider states that it is (and in this case, it doesn't state that), or to put it another way, there is nothing in the rules that tells you to read an Indented Rider in a manner other than simply being in addition to anything else in the Power Entry it is Indented under.

In terms of how you use the power, this is how the rules say to read it, in effect.
"Hit: 2d8 + Intelligence modifier thunder damage, and you pull the target 2 squares. The target is marked until the end of your next turn.  If you have the Aegis of Shielding class feature, then the target is marked by your aegis of shielding. Marking the target does not remove the mark on another target already affected by your aegis of shielding."

So you deal damage, pull the target, mark it EonT, and subject it to the effect of your Aegis of Shielding (if you have the class feature).

And if you want precedent: The wording of the rider is identical to the wording of Swordmages Decree and Aegis of Lost Souls, AND the wording is different from the wording of Aegis Sigil and Radiant Shield only by the inclusion of a shorter duration on the later. All of these powers were writen by the same person.

Riders are in addition to whatever else the power does, and are only contingent on the Power Entry they are indented under (if unindented, they are treated as an Effect line), unless otherwise noted. Augment entries, on the other hand, always replace the Power Entry they list, unless otherwise noted.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
In addition to the above, the RAI argument:

Thundering Vortex is an encounter powers, and encounter powers typically do not apply EoE effects, but rather EoNT effects.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
In addition to the above, the RAI argument:

Thundering Vortex is an encounter powers, and encounter powers typically do not apply EoE effects, but rather EoNT effects.



Yeah looking at from an RAI angle I agree completely (just some wishful hoping to be wrong) As for Aegis OF lost souls, I am interpreting that one as an EoE effect since it is explicitly marked by the "power"

Thank you for the answers everyone. 

FWIW the target of Aegis of Lost Soul isn't marked until the end of the encounter. It has no duration to it and thus its marked indefinitly or until it is  knocked off fsomehow.

For exemple, if the Swordmage mark an enemy and it flees, it will remain marked until the Swordmage dies or falls unconscious, until he use Aegis of Shielding against another target or until the enemy is marked by another effect.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Effects with unspecified durations have a duration of 5 minutes or EoE.

These are really basic duration rules we're talking about here.  That you're getting them wrong concerns me...
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Effects with unspecified durations have a duration of 5 minutes or EoE.


Rule Citation please ?  

I don't know of any Rules saying that and Durations certainly doesn't say that (RC 226).  

If that was true then Meduas's Petrifying Gaze would be pretty lame for exemple, since it would only petrify for 5 minutes :P

AFAIK an effect that has a conditional duration last until a specific event occur and one that doesn't have any, well last indefinitly since no duration is given.


RC 226 Conditional Durations: An effect that has a conditional duration last until a specific event occur.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Just for clarities sake, Mand, were you agreeing with me that Thundering Vortex is not EoNT not an EonT mark if you have Aegis of Shielding, and were just posting what you think RAI is for discussions sake?

And yeah, Wandering Swordmages can be jerks with Total Aegis by making entire armies suck until they use their Aegis power again.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
These are really basic duration rules we're talking about here.  That you're getting them wrong concerns me...


If i am getting them wrong as you say, please show me. Im still waiting for your rule citation that says unspecified durations have a duration of 5 minutes or EoE so where is it ? 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Don't hold your breath, it doesn't exist.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
It seems the rule I had in mind mentioned ongoing damage, specifically.  I extrapolated that to all conditions, but that may not be the case.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
It seems the rule I had in mind mentioned ongoing damage, specifically.  I extrapolated that to all conditions, but that may not be the case.

It seems you also recall that rule incorrectly because ongoing damage with an unspecified durations has a duration of (save end) and not until the end of the encounter or 5 minute. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

"Effects that last “until the end of the encounter” actually last about 5 minutes. That means they never carry over from one encounter to another, as long as those encounters are separated by a short rest. If characters use them outside combat, or plow through multiple encounters without taking a short rest, they enjoy the effect for a full 5 minutes."

DMG P41. 
Yup. For an effect to last 5 minutes it need to last until the end of the encounter in the first place.

An effect that has no given duration does not mean it last until the end of the encounter. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter