Level 8 Wizard Solos Green Dragon

An 8th level Wizard has 8 daily spells. If you pick the arcanist you get one more daily spell slots. If you pick the others you get an encounter spell.

8 spells is 2 spells per encounter in a balanced day (according to the play test packet). So you have 3+ at-will spells + 2 daily spells + 1 encounter or 1 extra daily.

So what 2 daily spells can we just about defeat anything in the game.

Here are the top monsters in the packet:

Chimera Lvl 8 hp 114
Dragon, Black lvl 9 hp 126
Dragon, Green lvl 9 hp 184
Dragon, White lvl 8 hp 105

Wall of Fire in a circle facing in around a target can deal 2d8 per round and 4d8 to move through it. That would do some nice damage to the Chimera, the others would simply fly out of it.

Polymorph looks like a good contendor. The Ankheg alone would be a nice thing to turn into. The giant carniverous Ape is nice, but its HD is too high by 2. Maybe at 10th level. Basilisk isn't bad, At the very least it causes the creature it fights to fight with disadvantage every round. That could seriously turn the tide of a battle. Some of the dinosaurs look really nice. It would be like doing a fireball to the target. The Sabre toothed tiger can get 3 attacks so that one looks nice. Griffon is pretty nice with 3 attacks. With Flyby and 3 attacks the Pegasus isn't bad.

Now if we combine polymorph with blink we get high AC as well as a 50/50 chance of not being able to be attacked.

So blink and polymorph would be able to win.

Combine the two and you get one nasty creature. I'd hate to see a Blink Ankheg, with the right tradition you can get some nice armor boosts.

So a Blink Ankheg with mage armor would have an AC of 20 and a 50% automatic miss chance for creatures targeting it. An 8th level Wizard would have 6+2 (Con bonus) + (4 * 7) + (2 * 7) = 50 hit points. Since the attack bonus of the Wizard is not a limitation of its form, its a class feature we add that in. It would lose any racial features so we won't worry about what race the Wizard is.

Blink Ankheg (Mage Armor)
AC: 20
HP: 50
Bite: +8; 2d6+2 piercing, 1d6 acid, auto hit grabbed target, auto grabs target on hit.
hit 55% 3d6+2 (12.5) = 6.875; crit 5% 3d6+2 (20) = 1; Total = 7.875
Acid Spray (Recharge 6): DC 9 Dex save for half; 3d6 acid.
Reacharge 16%; Save fail 40% 3d6 (10.5) = 4.2; Save succeed 60% 3d6 (5.25) = 3.15; Total = 7.35
DPR Bite 84% = 6.615; Acid Spray 16% = 1.176; Total = 7.791

So lets take the Green Dragon
AC: 16
HP: 184
Bite:+6; 19 (2d12 + 6) piercing damage.
hit 10% 2d12 + 6 (19) = 1.9; crit 5% 2d12 + 6 (30) = 1.5
Claw:+6;15 (2d8 + 6) slashing damage.
hit 10% 2d8 + 6 (15) = 1.5; crit 5% 2d8 + 6 (22) = 1.1
Tail:+6;15 (2d8 + 6) bludgeoning damage and, if the target is Large or smaller, the green dragon either pushes the target up to 10 feet away or knocks it prone (dragon’s choice).
N/A (its always better to us claw/claw/bite)
Total physical attacks per round: claw 1.1/claw 1.1/ bite 1.5 = 3.7
Poison Breath: DC 15 Constitution save for half, 6d6+4
Recharge: 32%; 70% save fail 6d6+4 (25) = 17.5; save succeed 30% 6d6+4 (12.5) = 3.75; subTotal = 21.25; Total after 50% miss = 10.625;
DPR 68% Claw/Claw/Bite = 2.516; 32% Poison Breath = 3.4; Total = 5.916;

So the Wizard would die in the 9th round on average (if you ran 4k battles).
The Dragon would die in the 24th round on average (if you ran 4k battles).

So it comes up that the Wizard with those two spells can't take out a dragon. there is also the concentration problem. The DCs are doable but there is a decent chance that the Wizard will fail one of the saves by the time the fight was half way through. Of course there is no real way to calculate the auto hit damage the Wizard would get with the Ankheg's Bite attack, unless... we count the percent chance each round that the Ankheg can hit:

Round   Chance of a single hit
1          60%
2          84%
3          93.6%
4          97.44%

By the fourth round its almost a given that the Wizard has hit and grabbed the Dragon. So lets average that out for an 83.76% chance of auto damage in 4 rounds. I'm not sure where to proceed from here though. It would swing the battle in the Wizards favor by increasing the DPR to 32.5 over 7.875. So if it grabbed in the first round the Dragon would be dead in 6 rounds. So I'm guesstimating that it would almost be an even match.

Edit: More comparisons

Wizard Polymorphed as Pegasus Vs. Green Dragon
Pegasus (Battle Mage: Stone Skin + Shield + Polymorph->Pegasus)
HP: 50 (Con+2)
AC 16 (14 + shield)
Speed 60ft., fly 120ft.
Con 16(+3)
Things to look up: Flyby (no opportunity attacks when moving away from a creature)
Bite: +8 (+4 Griffon, +4 Wizard); 1d4+4
hit 55% 1d4+4 (2.5 +4 = 6.5) = 3.575; crit 5% 1d4+4+5d6(4+4+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5 = 25.5) = 1.275; Total = 4.85
Hoof: +8 (see above); 1d6 + 4
hit 55% 1d6+4 (3.5+4=7.5) = 4.125; crit 5% 1d6+4+5d6 (6+4+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5 = 27.5) = 1.375; Total = 5.5
Hoof 5.5/Hoof 5.5/Bite 4.85 = 15.85
DPR 15.85

Green Dragon
AC: 16
HP: 184
Bite:+6; 19 (2d12 + 6) piercing damage.
hit 45% 2d12 + 6 (19) (-stone skin 9.5) = 4.275; crit 5% 2d12 + 6 (30) (-stone skin 15) = 0.75; Total = 5.025
Claw:+6; 15 (2d8 + 6) slashing damage.
hit 45% 2d8 + 6 (15) (-stone skin 7.5) = 3.375; crit 5% 2d8 + 6 (22) (-stone skin 11) = 0.55; Total = 3.925
Tail:+6;15 (2d8 + 6) bludgeoning damage and, if the target is Large or smaller, the green dragon either pushes the target up to 10 feet away or knocks it prone (dragon’s choice).
N/A (its always better to us claw/claw/bite)
Total physical attacks per round: claw 3.925 / claw 3.925 / bite 5.025 = 12.875
Poison Breath: DC 15 Constitution save for half, 6d6+4
Recharge: 32%; Con +3 to save; 60% save fail 6d6+4 (25) = 15; save succeed 40% 6d6+4 (12.5) = 5; subTotal = 20
DPR 68% Claw/Claw/Bite = 8.755; 32% Poison Breath = 6.4; Total = 15.155

Rounds it takes for a level 8 WizAsus to kill a Green Dragon is 12 rounds.
Rounds it takes for a Green Dragon to kill a level 8 WizAsus is 4 rounds.

Fighter Vs. Green Dragon
Green Dragon
AC: 16
HP: 184

Claw/Claw/Bite
Bite:+6; 19 (2d12 + 6) piercing damage.
hit 35% 2d12 + 6 (19) - parry(9) = (10) = 3.5; crit 5% 2d12 + 6 (30) - parry(9) = (21) = 1.05; Total = 4.55
Claw:+6;15 (2d8 + 6) slashing damage.
hit 35% 2d8 + 6 (15) - parry(9) = (6) = 2.1; crit 5% 2d8 + 6 (22) - parry(9) = (13) = 0.65; Total = 2.75
Total physical attacks per round: claw 4.55/claw 4.55/ bite 2.75 = 11.85

Bite/Tail
Tail:+6;15 (2d8 + 6) bludgeoning damage and, if the target is Large or smaller, the green dragon either pushes the target up to 10 feet away or knocks it prone (dragon’s choice).
hit 35% 2d8+6 (15) - parry(9) = (6) = 2.1; crit 5% 2d8 + 6 (22) - parry(9) = (13) = 0.65; Total = 2.75
Bite With advantage
hit 52.75% 2d12 + 6 (19) - parry(9) = (10) = 5.275; crit 9.75% 2d12 + 6 (30) -parry(9) = (21) = 2.0475; Total = 7.3225
Total physical attacks per round: Tail 2.75 / Bite 7.3225 = 10.0725
Again strictly inferior.

Poison Breath: DC 15 Constitution save for half, 6d6+4
Recharge: 32%; +10.0469 to save; 24.7655% save fail 6d6+4 (25) = 6.191375; save succeed 75.2345% 6d6+4 (12.5) = 9.4043125; subTotal = 15.5956875
DPR 68% Claw/Claw/Bite = 8.058; 32% Poison Breath = 4.99062; Total = 13.04862;

Level 8 Fighter
HP: 84
AC: 18 (plate mail)
Constitution: 16 (+3)
Strength: 20 (+5)
Weapon: Great Axe
Using Parry and Great Fortitude
Parry: Average roll of 2d8 = 9
Great Fortitude: Average roll of 2d8 take highest = 6.0469
1st attack: 2d6(weapon + dwarven increase) + 5(str) + 1(magic weapon).
2nd attack: 2d6(weapon + dwarven increase) + 5(str) + 1(magic weapon).
Attack: +4(class) +5(str) +1(magic weapon) = +10
Dragon AC: 16, Fighter needs a 6 to hit, that means a 70% hit rate.
1st attack: hit 65% 2d6 + 5 + 1 (13) = 8.45; crit 5% 2d6 + 5 + 1 + 5d6[crit] (39) = 1.95; Total = 10.4
2nd attack: hit 65% 2d6 + 5 + 1 (13) = 8.45; crit 5% 2d6 + 5 + 1 + 5d6[crit] (39) = 1.95; Total = 10.4
Combined total = 20.8

Rounds it takes a level 8 Fighter to kill a Green Dragon is 9 rounds.
Rounds it takes a Green Dragon to kill a level 8 Fighter is 15 rounds.

Wizard Polymorphed as Griffon Vs. Green Dragon
Griffon (Battle Mage: Stone Skin + Mage Armor(always on) + Shield + Polymorph->Griffon)
HP: 50 (Con+2)
AC 16 (Mage armor (12+2=14) + shield)
Speed 30ft., fly 80ft.
Con 16(+3)
Bite: +8 (+4 Griffon, +4 Wizard); 1d8+4
hit 55% 1d8+4 (4.5 +4 = 8.5) = 4.675; crit 5% 1d8+4+5d6(8+4+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5 = 29.5) = 1.475; Total = 6.15
Claw: +8 (see above); 1d6 + 4
hit 55% 1d6+4 (3.5+4=7.5) = 4.125; crit 5% 1d6+4+5d6 (6+4+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5 = 27.5) = 1.375; Total = 5.5
Claw 5.5/Claw 5.5/Bite 6.15 = 17.15
DPR 17.15

Green Dragon
AC: 16
HP: 184
Bite:+6; 19 (2d12 + 6) piercing damage.
hit 45% 2d12 + 6 (19) (-stone skin 9.5) = 4.275; crit 5% 2d12 + 6 (30) (-stone skin 15) = 0.75; Total = 5.025
Claw:+6; 15 (2d8 + 6) slashing damage.
hit 45% 2d8 + 6 (15) (-stone skin 7.5) = 3.375; crit 5% 2d8 + 6 (22) (-stone skin 11) = 0.55; Total = 3.925
Tail:+6;15 (2d8 + 6) bludgeoning damage and, if the target is Large or smaller, the green dragon either pushes the target up to 10 feet away or knocks it prone (dragon’s choice).
N/A (its always better to us claw/claw/bite)
Total physical attacks per round: claw 3.925 / claw 3.925 / bite 5.025 = 12.875
Poison Breath: DC 15 Constitution save for half, 6d6+4
Recharge: 32%; Con +3 to save; 60% save fail 6d6+4 (25) = 15; save succeed 40% 6d6+4 (12.5) = 5; subTotal = 20
DPR 68% Claw/Claw/Bite = 8.755; 32% Poison Breath = 6.4; Total = 15.155

Rounds it takes for a level 8 WizGrif to kill a Green Dragon is 11 rounds.
Rounds it takes for a Green Dragon to kill a level 8 WizGrif is 4 rounds.


"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Could you re-do the math with the proper AC?  Mage Armor sets your AC to 12+Dex modifier, so casting that before turning into an Ankheg would be a phenomenally bad idea.

Well, I guess it wouldn't actually hurt to leave it up.  It just doesn't help in any way.  It probably doesn't lower your AC, if you already have better, does it?

The metagame is not the game.
Might be a problem with weak monsters in generaly. Can a level 8 fighter solo a Dragon?

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I have not seen the playtest spell for polymorph, but I know i would not allow that in a 3.5 game i was GM-ing

As house-rule:
8.th level spell shapechange does not exist
Polymorph and Polymorph other is possible but if it is another being do you need to know that beings true name and have a bit of material for the creature you want to polymorph that guy into.
If it is polymorph self, well, you need a bit of material (hair or scale or) from the creature you want to polymorph into and it depends upon your knowledge (nature or ) if you are able to do it. The DC for having sufficient knowledge to polymorph into an ankheg would be very very high. The skill DC for a similar creature (human to elf) would be much lower. You could expect, you would have to research some special high level kind of polymorph in order to change into a specific wierd creature like an Ankheg. Basically, i want to let NPC high level wizards have the ability but not making it worth the time for a pc wizard.
I have not seen the playtest spell for polymorph, but I know i would not allow that in a 3.5 game i was GM-ing

As house-rule:
8.th level spell shapechange does not exist
Polymorph and Polymorph other is possible but if it is another being do you need to know that beings true name and have a bit of material for the creature you want to polymorph that guy into.
If it is polymorph self, well, you need a bit of material (hair or scale or) from the creature you want to polymorph into and it depends upon your knowledge (nature or ) if you are able to do it. The DC for having sufficient knowledge to polymorph into an ankheg would be very very high. The skill DC for a similar creature (human to elf) would be much lower. You could expect, you would have to research some special high level kind of polymorph in order to change into a specific wierd creature like an Ankheg. Basically, i want to let NPC high level wizards have the ability but not making it worth the time for a pc wizard.



Yeah we understand that you somehow managed to house rule 3.xE into submission, unfortunately we are play testing 5E here and not trying to house rule it into submission. Please do us all a favor and download and look up the things we are talking about. Please...please...please do this...

As to the mage armor thing, just replace with shield or any other defensive spell for +2 AC...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Well, you could lobby for having polymorph in 5E having some of those limitations I proposed.
When a 3.5 wizard fanboy like me can see that such limitations are a good idea for polymorph spells are there a good chance that many other grognards can also see it.
Well, you could lobby for having polymorph in 5E having some of those limitations I proposed.
When a 3.5 wizard fanboy like me can see that such limitations are a good idea for polymorph spells are there a good chance that many other grognards can also see it.



Currently the only limitations are that you can only turn into beasts and they have to have your level in hit dice or less. Many of the limitations of 3.xE would be welcome, but complex and difficult to use.

It would be better if you simply got the AC, and physical stats of the monsters and the size and shape, but nothing else...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Now if we combine polymorph with blink we get high AC as well as a 50/50 chance of not being able to be attacked.



Blink actually sucks in a solo fight.

Basically all you do is ready an action to attack when the wizard appears (and you know he will).


I gotta say if the polymorphs are back to copying monster entries then yes this is a problem, we know this is a bad idea, even pathfinder knew if had to fix the polymorph spells, and they did their best to avoid the fundamental changes the system needed.
Now if we combine polymorph with blink we get high AC as well as a 50/50 chance of not being able to be attacked.



Blink actually sucks in a solo fight.

Basically all you do is ready an action to attack when the wizard appears (and you know he will).




And while he's sitting there waiting for the Wizard to show up, the rest of the party is pounding him into the dirt.
 From memory polymorph wasn't that big of a problem in 2nd ed. Giving a polymorphed wiazrd the monsters physical stats seems to be the main problem along with ex and su type abilites. A high level polymorph spell turning someone into a dragon and breathing fire is not as much of a problem as turning into anything.

 Also don't let polymorphed wizards cast any spells.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Now if we combine polymorph with blink we get high AC as well as a 50/50 chance of not being able to be attacked.



Blink actually sucks in a solo fight.

Basically all you do is ready an action to attack when the wizard appears (and you know he will).





Even that wouldn't work because the blink spell moves you 10' randomly. I don't think you can move and attack if you hold your action, I could be wrong on that. Even if that works, just replace blink with stone skin.

Remember this isn't even a Wizard unloading. This is 2-3 spells out of 10 + 0th level, at-wills, and signature spells...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Well, you could lobby for having polymorph in 5E having some of those limitations I proposed.
When a 3.5 wizard fanboy like me can see that such limitations are a good idea for polymorph spells are there a good chance that many other grognards can also see it.



Currently the only limitations are that you can only turn into beasts and they have to have your level in hit dice or less. Many of the limitations of 3.xE would be welcome, but complex and difficult to use.

It would be better if you simply got the AC, and physical stats of the monsters and the size and shape, but nothing else...


And maybe gaining the creatures abilities could be coupld with something else, like a Blue Mage type skill. Maybe...

"Copycat"
On hitting with an at-will magic attack, you can learn one ability the enemy knows and prepare it in a spell slot. You can then cast this ability as a spell using your own stats(to also allow for any possible physical abilities).

Or it could just be a class of itself. I would love some Blue-Mage type abilities.
Well, you could lobby for having polymorph in 5E having some of those limitations I proposed.
When a 3.5 wizard fanboy like me can see that such limitations are a good idea for polymorph spells are there a good chance that many other grognards can also see it.



Currently the only limitations are that you can only turn into beasts and they have to have your level in hit dice or less. Many of the limitations of 3.xE would be welcome, but complex and difficult to use.

It would be better if you simply got the AC, and physical stats of the monsters and the size and shape, but nothing else...


And maybe gaining the creatures abilities could be coupld with something else, like a Blue Mage type skill. Maybe...

"Copycat"
On hitting with an at-will magic attack, you can learn one ability the enemy knows and prepare it in a spell slot. You can then cast this ability as a spell using your own stats(to also allow for any possible physical abilities).

Or it could just be a class of itself. I would love some Blue-Mage type abilities.



Yeah, I would love that too. It would probably be an at-will ability that does nothing but 'learns the move' so they are giving up their action economy to learn a new move. Then they would have to prepare the moves on extended rests and they would get 3-4 moves they could ready at one time. They could ready any move that comes from a monster with 3/4th their level in hit dice...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Well, you could lobby for having polymorph in 5E having some of those limitations I proposed.
When a 3.5 wizard fanboy like me can see that such limitations are a good idea for polymorph spells are there a good chance that many other grognards can also see it.



Currently the only limitations are that you can only turn into beasts and they have to have your level in hit dice or less. Many of the limitations of 3.xE would be welcome, but complex and difficult to use.

It would be better if you simply got the AC, and physical stats of the monsters and the size and shape, but nothing else...


And maybe gaining the creatures abilities could be coupld with something else, like a Blue Mage type skill. Maybe...

"Copycat"
On hitting with an at-will magic attack, you can learn one ability the enemy knows and prepare it in a spell slot. You can then cast this ability as a spell using your own stats(to also allow for any possible physical abilities).

Or it could just be a class of itself. I would love some Blue-Mage type abilities.



Yeah, I would love that too. It would probably be an at-will ability that does nothing but 'learns the move' so they are giving up their action economy to learn a new move. Then they would have to prepare the moves on extended rests and they would get 3-4 moves they could ready at one time. They could ready any move that comes from a monster with 3/4th their level in hit dice...


I would play the hell out of that class. Blue Mages have always been my favorite Final Fantsy job.
Well, you could lobby for having polymorph in 5E having some of those limitations I proposed.
When a 3.5 wizard fanboy like me can see that such limitations are a good idea for polymorph spells are there a good chance that many other grognards can also see it.



Currently the only limitations are that you can only turn into beasts and they have to have your level in hit dice or less. Many of the limitations of 3.xE would be welcome, but complex and difficult to use.

It would be better if you simply got the AC, and physical stats of the monsters and the size and shape, but nothing else...


And maybe gaining the creatures abilities could be coupld with something else, like a Blue Mage type skill. Maybe...

"Copycat"
On hitting with an at-will magic attack, you can learn one ability the enemy knows and prepare it in a spell slot. You can then cast this ability as a spell using your own stats(to also allow for any possible physical abilities).

Or it could just be a class of itself. I would love some Blue-Mage type abilities.



Yeah, I would love that too. It would probably be an at-will ability that does nothing but 'learns the move' so they are giving up their action economy to learn a new move. Then they would have to prepare the moves on extended rests and they would get 3-4 moves they could ready at one time. They could ready any move that comes from a monster with 3/4th their level in hit dice...


I would play the hell out of that class. Blue Mages have always been my favorite Final Fantsy job.



I used to be into FFXI:MMO. I loved the blue mage on that game...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Even that wouldn't work because the blink spell moves you 10' randomly. I don't think you can move and attack if you hold your action, I could be wrong on that. Even if that works, just replace blink with stone skin.


Since there's no separation between move and standard action in D&DN, I'm pretty sure you can ready a move, since movement is just part of your action. It wouldn't work that way in prior editions, but it seems to be D&DN legal.

As for stoneskin, yeah that would seem to provide the same 50/50 effect against the dragon's physical attacks, though the breathweapon would be unaffected.


Remember this isn't even a Wizard unloading. This is 2-3 spells out of 10 + 0th level, at-wills, and signature spells...



Yeah, the math does seem problematic. Although, another thing I think would be to deny the wizard the "weapon attack" bonus from his class when applying to natural attacks from monsters. As a DM I'd certainly rule that way, since wizards aren't proficient in bites and claws by default. I think that would probably balance it out if he was using the ankheg's base attack bonus. I don't see why the wizard should be more proficient in the natural weapons than the monster itself.
Well, you could lobby for having polymorph in 5E having some of those limitations I proposed.
When a 3.5 wizard fanboy like me can see that such limitations are a good idea for polymorph spells are there a good chance that many other grognards can also see it.



Currently the only limitations are that you can only turn into beasts and they have to have your level in hit dice or less. Many of the limitations of 3.xE would be welcome, but complex and difficult to use.

It would be better if you simply got the AC, and physical stats of the monsters and the size and shape, but nothing else...


And maybe gaining the creatures abilities could be coupld with something else, like a Blue Mage type skill. Maybe...

"Copycat"
On hitting with an at-will magic attack, you can learn one ability the enemy knows and prepare it in a spell slot. You can then cast this ability as a spell using your own stats(to also allow for any possible physical abilities).

Or it could just be a class of itself. I would love some Blue-Mage type abilities.



Yeah, I would love that too. It would probably be an at-will ability that does nothing but 'learns the move' so they are giving up their action economy to learn a new move. Then they would have to prepare the moves on extended rests and they would get 3-4 moves they could ready at one time. They could ready any move that comes from a monster with 3/4th their level in hit dice...


I would play the hell out of that class. Blue Mages have always been my favorite Final Fantsy job.



I used to be into FFXI:MMO. I loved the blue mage on that game...


Eh..I never played that. I probably wouldn't try it until it becomes F2P or there's private servers.
I just...

Words fail me.

We all knew how bad an idea unrestricted polymorph was.

How can the developers not realise?

And, they've made me agree with Gustaveren!

Damn them!

Damn them all!           
Might be a problem with weak monsters in generaly. Can a level 8 fighter solo a Dragon?



I believe so depending on how the fighter spends their expertise dice.
 From memory polymorph wasn't that big of a problem in 2nd ed. Giving a polymorphed wiazrd the monsters physical stats seems to be the main problem along with ex and su type abilites. A high level polymorph spell turning someone into a dragon and breathing fire is not as much of a problem as turning into anything.

 Also don't let polymorphed wizards cast any spells.




Since you lose all the abilities of the old shape I don't think you can cast any spells.

But yes polymorph self was more balanced in 2e.      


Have we yet seen the lvl 8 fighter's ability to deal with a dragon. 


Okay given best options the fighter will be a dex based character since he can't mitigate the frightful presence without a high wis.  SO dex based ranged Fighter (frightful prescence says he just has to move away doesn't say he can't shoot).  Lets say Race Elf so we are rocking a d10 weapon.  Speciality: Endurance Specialist.  Maneuvers: Deadly Strike, Parry,  Great Fortitude, Tumbling Dodge.  

no arrow of dragon slaying though that should go without mention.

Issues identified within writing this post (just notes on things I identified to myself while checking a few things for the post): 
Parry is kind of a maneuver tax.  
Parry has a loophole within it.  You can be wielding a ranged weapon and still parry with it as an improvised melee weapon. (I see no problem with this happening but lets just make it not confusing as to the function) 

One other note: I do love how I can develop a level 8 fighter in like 10 minutes.
Even that wouldn't work because the blink spell moves you 10' randomly. I don't think you can move and attack if you hold your action, I could be wrong on that. Even if that works, just replace blink with stone skin.


Since there's no separation between move and standard action in D&DN, I'm pretty sure you can ready a move, since movement is just part of your action. It wouldn't work that way in prior editions, but it seems to be D&DN legal.

As for stoneskin, yeah that would seem to provide the same 50/50 effect against the dragon's physical attacks, though the breathweapon would be unaffected.


Remember this isn't even a Wizard unloading. This is 2-3 spells out of 10 + 0th level, at-wills, and signature spells...



Yeah, the math does seem problematic. Although, another thing I think would be to deny the wizard the "weapon attack" bonus from his class when applying to natural attacks from monsters. As a DM I'd certainly rule that way, since wizards aren't proficient in bites and claws by default. I think that would probably balance it out if he was using the ankheg's base attack bonus. I don't see why the wizard should be more proficient in the natural weapons than the monster itself.



House Rules aside, natural weapons are still weapons and the bonus comes from class and not race, so it by RAW would apply...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
A green dragon has 184 hit points, A fighter can do 1d12 + 2d8 + 5 points of damage, so for a max of 33. So actually it appears that a fighter can not solo a green dragon. I'm not certain a wizard can do it either without dying first.
A green dragon has 184 hit points, A fighter can do 1d12 + 2d8 + 5 points of damage, so for a max of 33. So actually it appears that a fighter can not solo a green dragon. I'm not certain a wizard can do it either without dying first.



don't forget the extra attack at 6th level and the use of the best armor.  Actually, I think the fighter would also do quite well against the dragon.



House Rules aside, natural weapons are still weapons and the bonus comes from class and not race, so it by RAW would apply...



Well if you want to go by strict RAW, then the wizard wouldn't have proficiency in the natural weapons either, so he'd be taking a nonproficiency penalty. So either way it'd end up balancing out.
Lokilare you should remember that about every other round on average the dragon can perform a breath weapon or a suggestion attack(I noticed how you omitted that power).     If I was the DM I'd just have the dragon do flyby attacks and wait in the sky for the breath weapon and suggestion powers to recharge.      A 60 foot cone for the breath weapon and 50 foot range for the suggestion is all he would need to avoid that stupid wizard.  

Lastly, if all else fails the dragon flies high up into the sky with the wizard and drops him to his death.     If the dragon can keep the battle in the sky it's doubtfull the wizard can win, even if the wizard grabs him while flying, it's certain death for the wizard if he kills the dragon in the air.      



A green dragon has 184 hit points, A fighter can do 1d12 + 2d8 + 5 points of damage, so for a max of 33. So actually it appears that a fighter can not solo a green dragon. I'm not certain a wizard can do it either without dying first.



don't forget the extra attack at 6th level and the use of the best armor.  Actually, I think the fighter would also do quite well against the dragon.



Yeah I completely forgot about the extra attack. I vote we make this simple, A wizard and a fighter together can solo a green dragon. Dragons and all the other monsters are way way way too weak.
The Green Dragon (Draco Chlorinous Nauseous Respiriratorus) has always been my favourite; sleeper, the whole sylvan connection, and other qualities.
A green dragon has 184 hit points, A fighter can do 1d12 + 2d8 + 5 points of damage, so for a max of 33. So actually it appears that a fighter can not solo a green dragon. I'm not certain a wizard can do it either without dying first.



Actually it comes out about even with a Wizard, and if the Wizard starts to look to be losing they can end the polymorph and cast other spells. The Fighter doesn't have that option.

Where's Cyber Dave? he did all the calculations for the Fighter in another thread.

Green Dragon
AC: 16
HP: 184
Bite:+6; 19 (2d12 + 6) piercing damage.
hit 35% 2d12 + 6 (19) = 6.65; crit 5% 2d12 + 6 (30) = 1.5; Total = 8.15
Claw:+6;15 (2d8 + 6) slashing damage.
hit 35% 2d8 + 6 (15) = 5.25; crit 5% 2d8 + 6 (22) = 1.1; Total = 6.35
Tail:+6;15 (2d8 + 6) bludgeoning damage and, if the target is Large or smaller, the green dragon either pushes the target up to 10 feet away or knocks it prone (dragon’s choice).
N/A (its always better to us claw/claw/bite)
Total physical attacks per round: claw 6.35/claw 6.35/ bite 8.15 = 20.85
Poison Breath: DC 15 Constitution save for half, 6d6+4
Recharge: 32%; 60% save fail 6d6+4 (25) = 15; save succeed 40% 6d6+4 (12.5) = 5; subTotal = 20
DPR 68% Claw/Claw/Bite = 14.178; 32% Poison Breath = 6.4; Total = 20.578;

Level 8 Fighter
AC: 18 (plate mail)
Constitution: 16 (+3)
Strength: 20 (+5)
Weapon: Great Axe
Using full Expertise Dice on each attack.
1st attack: 2d6(weapon + dwarven increase) + 2d8(ED) + 5(str) + 1(magic weapon).
2nd attack: 2d6(weapon + dwarven increase) + 5(str) + 1(magic weapon).
Attack: +4(class) +5(str) +1(magic weapon) = +10
Dragon AC: 16, Fighter needs a 6 to hit, that means a 70% hit rate.
1st attack: hit 65% 2d6 + 2d8 + 5 + 1 (22) = 14.3; crit 5% 2d6 + 2d8 + 5 + 1 + 5d6[crit] (64) = 3.2; Total = 17.5 DPR
2nd attack: hit 65% 2d6 + 5 + 1 (13) = 8.45; crit 5% 2d6 + 5 + 1 + 5d6[crit] (39) = 1.95; Total = 10.4
Combined total = 27.9

Rounds it takes a level 8 Fighter to kill a Green Dragon is 7 rounds.
Rounds it takes a Green Dragon to kill a level 8 Fighter is 4 rounds.

Edit: Added Fighters second attack...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Lokilare you should remember that about every other round on average the dragon can perform a breath weapon or a suggestion attack(I noticed how you omited that power).     If I was the DM I'd just have the dragon do flyby attacks and wait in the sky for the breath weapon and suggestion powers to recharge.      A 60 foot cone for the breath weapon and 50 foot range for the suggestion is all he would need to avoid that stupid wizard.  

Lastly, if all else fails the dragon flies high up into the sky with the wizard and drops him to his death.     If the dragon can keep the battle in the sky it's doubtfull the wizard can win, even if the wizard grabs him while flying, it's certain death for the wizard if he kills the dragon in the air.      





I left suggestion out because the Wizard has it too. At best the Dragon could get the Wizard to stop concentrating with it, its not a real game changer the way its set up....Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I have to add that a strength based fighter cannot beat a flying dragon. At all.
I have to add that a strength based fighter cannot beat a flying dragon. At all.



I redid the above calculations to add the Fighters second attack...Smile

So the Wizard with a little luck can break even. The Fighter is behind by 3-4 rounds...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
High strength fghter can throw stuff but I would use a high dex one so he can switch to a bow. Iron Will manuveur as well I suppose.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

High strength fghter can throw stuff but I would use a high dex one so he can switch to a bow. Iron Will manuveur as well I suppose.





Keep in mind that you're stuck with a 5 pound d6 hand axe with a range of 20 or a 7 pound d8 throwing axe with a range of 30. The axes don't come back, are too heavy to carry too many of, and severely lack range. That strength fighter is SOL.
So I guess the dragon is just going to sit on the ground...one of THOSE fights.
So I guess the dragon is just going to sit on the ground...one of THOSE fights.



Well if the Dragon is going to fight the 20ft burrow speed Wizard, they have to come down. The Fighter not so much... Also the Wizard auto grabs when they hit...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
So I guess the dragon is just going to sit on the ground...one of THOSE fights.



Well if the Dragon is going to fight the 20ft burrow speed Wizard, they have to come down. The Fighter not so much... Also the Wizard auto grabs when they hit...


So the wizard can hide underground while the dragon flies...you have a stalemate for 1 hour.  Then dragon food.
High strength fghter can throw stuff but I would use a high dex one so he can switch to a bow. Iron Will manuveur as well I suppose.



Does next have a strength adjusted bow?    I mean if you are going to give the wizard choice spells then you might as well give the fighter his choice of weapons.  


The wizard's lack of armor will probably end the fight early though, not to mention the hit points.
This battle reminds me of a young gamer that joined our 3e group.   He thought he could solo a white dragon, but he soon found out that all his min/maxing didn't work as he had planned.   Sure his druid pissed the dragon off with a Control Weather spell, but after he ran out of spells the dragon just ate him.     

I really don't think Lokiare's battle would play out the way he thinks it would.