Black Counterspell Question

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Was wondering if you thought the following should be common, uncommon, rare, or mythic. Not saying these or good or balanced.

Black Counter Spell #1 (Intended to be Uncommon)

BB

As an additional cost, sacrifice two permanents.

Counter Target Spell



Black Counter Spell #2(Intended to be Rare)

1BB

When _ comes into play, you may pay 2 life. If you do,  _ cost 1 less.

Counter Target Spell.



Black Counter Spell #3 (Inteded to be uncommon)

1BB

Counter Target Spell. You lose life equal to that cards mana cost.


Appreciate it in advance. Thanks.
I think only the last one is truly black. The second one needs to read "When you cast ~" instead of "When ~ comes into play", and it is strictly better than Cancel, which isn't saying much, but it should not be this way in Black, methinks. The first one is really too good. I'm always looking for ways to Sacrifice my stuff, instant speed Sac anything with a counter attached? I'd run plenty.

Those are my thoughts.

Don't forget to vote Phyrexian.
I think only the last one is truly black. The second one needs to read "When you cast ~" instead of "When ~ comes into play", and it is strictly better than Cancel, which isn't saying much, but it should not be this way in Black, methinks. The first one is really too good. I'm always looking for ways to Sacrifice my stuff, instant speed Sac anything with a counter attached? I'd run plenty.

Those are my thoughts.

Don't forget to vote Phyrexian.

Thank you for the reply but you didn't quite answer the question. I think I get the gist, but what would you grade each card for rarity. 

Thanks. 
It's more that black shouldn't have any hard counters. Nor should red, green, or white. Hard counters cost at least because of Counterspell.

However, black may have Dash Hopes. It could even have

Black Force Spike

Instant

Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2 life.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Oh, you want Rarity?

Okay. I'd say they are all either Rare or Mythic. See what Bay_falconer said about hard counters. If Wizards were going to print these, that is what they'd be.

Don't forget: Phyrexia desires your vote, and Phyrexia always receives what it desires.
For further explanation, hard counters are ones like Counterspell, Dissipate, and the like. Soft counters are things like Memory Lapse (sends to zone other than graveyard or exile), Negate (doesn't counter everything), Delay (it will be cast eventually), and Mana Leak (has a rhystic).

Black could also get

Stillbirth

Instant

Counter target creature spell.

But I would leave it to countering creatures. Countering other card types would either be too corner-case (planeswalkers), not rules-compatible (lands), or not in with black's flavor (everything else).
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
How about these..

Black Counterspell #4 (Uncommon)

BB

Counter target spell unless the opponent discards 2 cards.


Black Counterspell #5 (Rare) 

BB

Counter Target spell as long as it's controller has a spell with the same name in their graveyard.




I am trying to come up with a Black counter that counters all card types for 2. The point is to be similar to Counterspell.  Maybe anyone with more experience could give me examples of what they would say is fair.

To clarify.. Counterspell is a great counterspell, but I am looking to make a rare black counterspell. Counterspell and Dash Hopes are both common, albeit great. Because it is rare, in my opinion, it can be almost as good as counterspell and cost the same. Almost. Hell, Dash hopes in many cases is almost as good and it is common.

Thanks forgiving your opinions so far. I appreciate it. Just want to understand more about this subject.

Zack
 
Much better. Like for real. Both of those are cool and interesting. #5 is a little iffy, but I'm going to give you the upward thumb for it. As far as fairness, discarding one card should probably be good enough. Maybe if you upped cost to or even and made it "X cards."

Are these both Rare, though? Well, rarity is a hot topic. What is its purpose? Power level? Keeping Limited running smoothly? Complication? Innovation? I'm into the Limited perspective, with a dash of Complication. I think commons can be both strong and innovative.

So #5 I think is Rare for sure. You wouldn't want that running amuck, and clogging up the commoner slots.

#4 could be Uncommon, I guess. It could also totally slide at Rare. If it were my set, and I were colour-shifting a lot, it'd be Uncommon.

Nice stuff.

139359831 wrote:
That is a lovely painting of Richard Garfield. It really brings out his feminine side.
Much better. More conditional, more flavorful, and not stepping on blue's territory.

You might want to include some reminder text on #5: (Spells cast with flashback are on the stack.)
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
#5 is pretty cool. it ties into blacks graveyard themes for maximum flavour justification. Conditional yet powerful and it could find a use as a black method of combo breaking. Could also go with a milling theme so depending on the goals of your set you could actually cost it at :ubm::B:.
Useless in draft so definitely a rare.

#4 should say "unless its controller discards...". Discarding 1 card as pablo suggests doesn't seem very effective to me. It becomes a hard counter if the opponent has no cards in hand, which in some environments could be very relevant (maybe with discard). Actually you know what that sounds fine. I was worried that at only one discard it would amount to an overpriced discard spell but let black jump through some hoops for it's counters. The :Xm::B::B: version Pablo suggested is great too.
Either version of this would be an uncommon.
"The opponent" is Alpha wording. It would be "its controller" or "any player" or "any opponent", but not "the opponent".

I would say that "0 card advantage or...0 card advantage!" doesn't seem very restrictive to me. It hoses RDW and maybe white weenie, but little else.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
I think #4 is too good. It's either a hard counter 1-for-1 or a 2-for-1 at instant speed for 2 mana. Even if it isn't an optimal counterspell, it is incredibly good late-game disruption. To balance it, I would append the to the mana cost, where X is number of cards to discard, or make it so if the countered spell's controller chooses to discard 2 cards, #4's controller must do the same (or discard one, or pay some life; something like that.)
Standard Pauper! (play it on MTGO)
I think #4 is too good. It's either a hard counter 1-for-1 or a 2-for-1 at instant speed for 2 mana. Even if it isn't an optimal counterspell, it is incredibly good late-game disruption. To balance it, I would append the to the mana cost, where X is number of cards to discard, or make it so if the countered spell's controller chooses to discard 2 cards, #4's controller must do the same (or discard one, or pay some life; something like that.)


what are your thoughts on Dash Hopes
192884403 wrote:
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97820278 wrote:
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97820278 wrote:
Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
This definitely doesn't mean what you think it means.
I was referring to the painting The Treachery of Images.
I know.
I like #5 as much as I like Dash Hopes, which is a lot. That said, I think none of them gets really what counterspell in Black means. Everyone here is tired of hearing and watching how much counterspells are awesome, how much they affect the game. An effect this good at this CMC in Black should, in theory, have some kind of "burden" to Black. Black shouldn't be doing this without having to deal with more than mana. The best way to do that, IMHO, is by making the player pay life. I would also make it a soft counter, mainly because I believe only Blue should have hard counters.
A bit of a different direction, though I like Dash Hopes because it is more similar to  counterspell, but I came up with another idea. Probably been thought of a thousand times.

Unbirth

B

Counter target creature spell. It's controller puts a 1/2 zombie token that is black into play under their control.



I know my wording is not always accurate in relation to MtG wording. I am simply being quick. 2/2 might be better.. Not sure.
To Dormiens,

I love Dash Hopes. Honestly I just want ideas for cards that are AS good. I want a card that when you put it up next to Dash Hopes, if you HAVE to choose from only those cards, it's not an easy choice. I really like when black cards try to be blue. I know people generally hate that, but I really do like it. unfortunately, 80 percent of my decks have been blue, black, or a mix of the two. 
I would like the first one better if it were

Ignorant Greed -- :BM:
Instant (U)

As an additional cost to cast Ignorant Greed, sacrifice a permanent.
Counter target spell that shares a type with the sacrificed permanent.

I like it because it's like the opposite of Negate and in black, though very limited.
A less limited version could be...

Ignorant Greed -- :BM:
Instant (U)

As an additional cost to cast Ignorant Greed, sacrifice a permanent or discard a card.
Counter target spell that shares a type with a card put into your graveyard this turn.
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I like #5, but I would want to see it taken one step further, as an Extirpate/Surgical Extraction variant that happens to hit spells on the stack in addition to wiping the opponents hand and library.
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Any comment on "Unbirth"?
 
Any comment on "Unbirth"?
 



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139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
What is your opinion on he following
Deathgrip
stromgald cabal
Thrull Wizard
Withering Boon
What is your opinion on he following
Deathgrip
stromgald cabal
Thrull Wizard
Withering Boon



Withering Boon is pretty good, albeit strictly worse than Remove Soul (though the latter sounds more black by name alone).

Permanents that counter spells are usually worthless (except for Counterspell imprinted on Isochron Scepter). Your opponent knows you have them for them to be effective, and can play around them. Deathgrip is particularly bad in that regard, as it has the exact same problem as Pyroblast, Hydroblast, Lifeforce, etc., on top of being a counter permanent.

Most of the time, black won't need counters to deal with creatures. Counters are time-critical, whereas removal isn't. (As ETB effects matter more, that might change.)
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
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