What the Rogue should have been

This is my opinion of what the Rogue should have been. Open up the play test classes packet and skim down to the Rogue class.

Replace the advancement chart with this one:

The Rogue
            Weapon  Expertise
Level      Attack      Dice       Class Features
1            +2          1d4         Expertise, Rogue Scheme, Combat Maneuver
2            +2          1d6         Exploration Maneuver
3            +2          1d6         Social Maneuver
4            +2          2d6
5            +3          2d6         Combat Maneuver
6            +3          2d6         Exploration Maneuver
7            +3          2d6         Social Maneuver
8            +3          2d8
9            +3          2d8         Combat Maneuver
10          +4          3d10       Exploration Maneuver

Remove the "Level 1: Expertise" part that says they get Skill Mastery automatically to say they get the Scheme Feature listed with the Scheme.

Change the Schemes as follows:

Acrobat
Feature: You gain advantage on all Tumble checks made without a timed danger element (such as combat)
Skill: Tumble
Maneuvers: Controlled Fall, Tumbling Dodge, Vault, Expert Performance (see below), Spring Attack, Lightning Reflexes.

Enforcer
Feature: You gain advantage on intimidate checks against targets that have fewer hit dice than your level.
Skill: Intimidate
Maneuvers: Dirty Fighting (see below), Not It (see below), Threatening Glare (see below), Manipulate (see below), Get Over It (see below), Pursue (see below)

Rake
Feature: You gain advantage on bluff checks that are not hurried or threatened.
Skill: Bluff
Maneuvers: Feint (see below), Tumbling Dodge, Controlled Fall, Convincing Speech (see below), Distraction (see below)

Thief
Feature: You gain advantage on Sleight of Hand checks against targets that have fewer hit dice than you have levels.
Skill: Sleight of Hand
Maneuvers: Mug (see below), Trap Sense (see below), Unseen (see below), Black Mail (see below), Scout (see below)

Skill Master
Feature: You gain additional skills listed below.
Skills: Choose four skills from the skill list.
Maneuvers: Dirty Fighting (renamed sneak attack), Skill Mastery, Second Chance (see below), Skill Focus (see below), Too Good (see below)

Assassin
You are the shadows. You bide your time and strike at the opportune moment to take enemies down in a single blow.
Feature: You can stealth even while being observed by using a distraction ("look over there", a smoke bomb, or something equally distracting).

Skills: Sneak
Maneuvers: Sneak Attack (see below), Careful Listening (See Below), Unseen (See Below), Honor Among Theives (see below), Nick (see below)

Maneuvers

Dirty Fighting
You use cunning and guile to deliver a deadly attack against an unsuspecting foe.
Effect: When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can spend expertise dice to increase the attack's damage against that target, provided you have advantage against the target or it is in reach of a creature friendly to you. Roll all the expertise dice you spend, and add up their results. The damage gains a bonus equal to that total. In addition if you have advantage and the creature is in reach of a creature friendly to you deal 1d4 extra damage per Rogue level.

Pursue
You are fast on the heals of a retreating foe.
Effect: When a target that is engaged with you uses an action to disengage, roll Expertise Dice, you may move that many feet closer to the target as a reaction. Minimum 5'. (round up to the nearest 5' if using a grid).

Distraction
Using body language or speech you distract an enemy and allow an ally to make an opportunity attack.
Effect: Instead of moving you may make an opposed bluff check with a target within 20'. Roll Expertise Dice and add the highest to the check. If you succeed an ally adjacent to the target may make an opportunity attack. If they hit they deal your Expertise Dice total as damage instead of damage or any other effect.

Scout
Your foreknowledge of an area or persons behavior allows you to have an advantage when dealing with the area or person.
Effect: If you have foreknowledge (plans, descriptions, charts, or other detailed knowledge) of an area or person you may add your highest Expertise Dice roll to Listen, Spot, or Search checks in the area or dealing with the person when not rushed or threatened.

Too Good
You are so well versed in a skill that even when you are at a disadvantage you have a great chance to succeed.
Effect: When this Maneuver is chosen at level up pick a skill. When using that skill when you have disadvantage you may add your highest Expertise Dice to the lowest roll.

Nick
Even though you missed you are still able to hurt your target due to your superior skill.
Effect: If sneak attack misses by 5 or less you may deal the highest Expertise Dice you stored up as damage to the target.

Not It
You intimidate an opponent into not targeting you directly.
Effect: Make an intimidate check, roll expertise dice and add the highest dice result to the intimidate check. If the targets opposed Charisma check is lower they cannot target you directly this round. They can still include you in area effects, but they cannot be centered on you. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Threatening Glare
You keep your eye on a foe in range and make threatening gestures every chance you get distracting them.
Effect: When the target is within range of your melee attack and they make an attack against anyone but you as the target, you can roll any expertise dice you have left. They subtract the highest expertise dice result from their attack roll. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Feint
You use trickery and flattery to make a foe think you are attacking one way instead of another.
Effect: Instead of moving you may make an opposed Bluff check. Roll expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If you win the opposed check, your next attack in the same round against the target of your feint has advantage. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Convincing Speech
You give a rousing speech that anyone that doesn't know you is fooled by.
Effect: Make an opposed Persuade check. Roll any expertise dice and add the highest to the Persuade check. Each person that hears your speech and can understand it that doesn't know you well by reputation or in person can be convinced of the subject of the speech as per the Persuade skill. Those that know you gain advantage on the opposed check. The speech usually takes at least a minute or more, as decided by the DM. During this time you cannot make attacks or other checks because the nature of the speech includes body language and demeanor. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same targets grant the target advantage on their checks.

Expert Performance
You give an excellent performance by jumping and dodging and tumbling around the room, running up walls and jumping off, and other daring tricks.
Effect: Make an opposed perform or tumble check. Roll expertise dice, add the highest to the check. If you succeed, the targets are entertained by your performance. This performance can only be used in a non-dangerous situation where the Rogue is not threatened or rushed. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Manipulate
You glare menacingly at someone. They are convinced that bad things will happen if they don't agree.
Effect: Make an opposed Intimidate check. Roll expertise dice, add the highest to the check. If you succeed, the target is convinced that they will be harmed if they don't agree to what you want. You must explain what you want and you can't perform this maneuver if threatened or rushed. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Mug
As you slash you grab at an item your foe has and remove it from them.
Effect: As part of your normal attack make an opposed Sleight of Hand check. Roll expertise dice, add the highest to the check. If you succeed, you are able to take a random (DM determined) item that is not worn, held, or otherwise difficult to get at. This item could be a handful of ammo (1d8 arrows, darts, or throwing daggers), a potion, sheathed weapon, or any other similar item. Magical items cannot be taken in this way if they are attuned due to the magic bond interfering with the inattention of the target. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Trap Sense
At the last moment you realize you have triggered a trap and dodge out of the way instinctually.
Effect: When a trap causes you to make a saving throw, roll expertise dice and add the highest to your saving throw roll.

Unseen
You move in such a way that even an observer doesn't see you.
Effect: As part of a regular attack in which you have stealth, you may make a stealth check as part of your move. You must end your move in an area that allows stealth such as shadows or out of sight of the target. make an opposed stealth check. Roll your expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If you hit with your attack the target has advantage on the check. If you succeed you are stealthed. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Black Mail
Through expert use of observations and intimations you convince a person that you have something on them, whether you do or not. You also convince them that if something happens to you it will come out and ruin their reputation.
Effect: When not threatened or rushed you may make an opposed bluff or persuade check. Roll expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If you succeed you convince the target that you have some information that they don't want generally known. You also convince them that any action taken against you will automatically reveal the information to the general public. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Second Chance
You realize you have made a mistake and backtrack until you are able to correct it.
Effect: When you fail a skill check, you may roll expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If the new total allows you to succeed you succeed.

Skill Focus
You focus totally on one of your Scheme's skills to the exclusion of all else.
Requirement: Skill Mastery
Effect: When using Skill Mastery on one of your Scheme's skills you may re-roll any 1's if you are not rushed or threatened.

Get Over It
You convince yourself its only a flesh wound
Effect: When damaged outside of combat due to the environment you are able to roll expertise dice and ignore the dice result of damage.

Sneak Attack
You bide your time and strike with deadly accuracy
Effect: While stealthed you may carefully study a single target each round. When you do this you store up expertise dice. When you attack with advantage against the target you may add all of your expertise dice to the damage of the attack if you hit. In addition you count this attack as a critical hit dealing critical damage. If you miss, you lose the stored up dice. Any action other than moving causes you to lose stored up dice. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Careful Listening
You can tell what is going on due to your superior trained sense of hearing.
Effect: When listening you make an opposed listen check. Roll expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If you succeed you not only hear that there are specific sounds in the area, you are able to tell what those sounds are, so a slight crunch of pebbles might indicate 3 small creatures are stealthily approaching. The sound of a drip might indicate that there is a wine cask leaking in the next room.

Honor Among Theives
You can convince others with your demeanor that you honor your word when you give it.
Effect: Make an opposed persuade check. Roll expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If you succeed the target is convinced that you will not go back on your word. This doesn't mean that you actually must not go back on your word, only that the target is entirely convinced you won't. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.


Maneuver Categories
Combat Tumbling Dodge, Dirty Fighting (renamed sneak attack), Not It, Threatening Glare, Feint, Mug, Unseen, Sneak Attack
Exploration Controlled Fall, Vault, Get Over It, Trap Sense, Skill Mastery, Second Chance, Skill Focus, Careful Listening
Social Expert Performance, Manipulate, Convincing Speech, Black Mail, Skill Mastery, Second Chance, Skill Focus, Honor Among Theives

There probably needs to be more maneuvers to keep up with the suggested progression, but overall I just created a better Rogue in about 2 hours. I'm wondering what's going on with the developers and how the current Rogue got past their in house and friends and family testers and any mathematicians they have on hand.
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Heck, it´s pretty nice on a first glance. I´m not a game designer, just a regular player, but without actually testing it, just reading it makes me way more excited about the rogue than the playtest material. I prefer this rogue over the playtest version. Some very nice ideas going on here. It[s nice how you implement "social and exploration maneuvers" and it totally fits the feel and language of D&D Next.

I would like to have combat maneuver tunned up a little bit, and seeing some "striker" stuff on it, like dealing a insane amount of damage in rare occasion. Also for the Skills, I imagine thief should be able to do something extra with the "thievery related skills", something no other characters with those skills could accomplish.

Just personal thoughts about the rogue... Wonderful job so far on your class suggestions I thinks it´s dawn valuable, keep it up.
Heck, it´s pretty nice on a first glance. I´m not a game designer, just a regular player, but without actually testing it, just reading it makes me way more excited about the rogue than the playtest material. I prefer this rogue over the playtest version. Some very nice ideas going on here. It[s nice how you implement "social and exploration maneuvers" and it totally fits the feel and language of D&D Next.

I would like to have combat maneuver tunned up a little bit, and seeing some "striker" stuff on it, like dealing a insane amount of damage in rare occasion. Also for the Skills, I imagine thief should be able to do something extra with the "thievery related skills", something no other characters with those skills could accomplish.

Just personal thoughts about the rogue... Wonderful job so far on your class suggestions I thinks it´s dawn valuable, keep it up.



I knew I forgot something. Let me add in the Assassin build...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
See Lokiare, one of your better posts.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

See Lokiare, one of your better posts.



Yeah, unfortunately no one is reading it or giving feedback...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I find it valuable, but I have 1 big question.

Right now a huge chunk of people are criticizing rogues complete dominance of the exploration and interaction pillars. With this proposed setup, wouldn't this only exacerbate this by making them good in combat, but keeping their dominance over the other two pillars?
My two copper.
I find it valuable, but I have 1 big question.

Right now a huge chunk of people are criticizing rogues complete dominance of the exploration and interaction pillars. With this proposed setup, wouldn't this only exacerbate this by making them good in combat, but keeping their dominance over the other two pillars?



Not really, especially if they give the Fighter a similar maneuver progression with combat, exploration, and social maneuvers...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Yeah, unfortunately no one is reading it or giving feedback...

It's the thread title. I was expecting something far less awesome before I clicked through.

Danny

Yeah, unfortunately no one is reading it or giving feedback...

It's the thread title. I was expecting something far less awesome before I clicked through.




Well I can't change it now, too late...

Maybe we can spread the word... just mention it in some posts with a link or two...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Looks good to me.  I'm going to past it into my word document of the play test packet.  Thanks Lokiare!
Looks good to me.  I'm going to past it into my word document of the play test packet.  Thanks Lokiare!



No problem. Its what I'm here for...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
 Alot of the feedback has been saying Rogues need a combat bump and a skill nerf and the class would be fine.

 Lokiare I liked you thread but theres alot to be said about presentation. Its not what you say but how you say it makes a difference. You see a Lokiare thread and more or less assume its just going to be a dump on D&DN. Anyhting constructive is going to get drowned out.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

 ALot of the feedback has been saying Rogues need a combat bump and a skill nerf and the class would be fine.

 Lokiare I liked you thread but theres alot to be said about it. YOu see a Lokiare thread and more or less assume its just going to be a dump on D&DN. ANyhting constructive is going to get drowned out.



Well you could repost it if you liked it. That way they would not think I wrote it till you put the link at the bottom or mention me at the end...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
 I'm not at that point yet (posting my own D&DN material). Trying to work out how to balance out the Dragonborn in D&DN. Personally leaning towards inflating the power level of the classes and races a bit and adjusting the monsters to suit. Both 4th ed and PF have candy at most levels AKA no dead levels.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

 I'm not at that point yet (posting my own D&DN material). Trying to work out how to balance out the Dragonborn in D&DN. Personally leaning towards inflating the power level of the classes and races a bit and adjusting the monsters to suit. Both 4th ed and PF have candy at most levels AKA no dead levels.



We could all get together and make a D20 based game that would be 5E how its supposed to be. We could call it "Dungon and Dagon: 5th Age"...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Wow.  I love it Lokiare.  Making sure that the Schemes really give something of substance to the PC is important, and the variety of maneuvers is also very cool.


A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

Among other things worth liking, your Mug maneuver is the most credible attempt I've seen at making a Final Fantasy style thief work in a tabletop RPG.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Thanks... It only took me an hour. If I get more time and encouragement I might make more maneuvers and then do the Fighter...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Among other things worth liking, your Mug maneuver is the most credible attempt I've seen at making a Final Fantasy style thief work in a tabletop RPG.

Mug is a definite gem.

Danny

While I am not completely on board with all that you suggest, I am a fan of your rogue ideas.  However, if I had to choose between your rogue, and the one in the playtest now, I might go with yours.  Perhaps me and you could discuss rogue options in a civil manner one day, as I am curious as to what someone with your thoughts would have with hearing my opinions.
Gut reaction? I like it. 

More thinking on it... I think there's a lot which relies on intimidation. I'm not a fan of thuggish rogues, but it's a playstyle preference. There's a lot of really smart stuff in it (my most intelligent wording, evAr) to preclude certain abuses. I approve of that. I haven't really compared it to the one in the packet. I do wonder if this rogue gets too few expertise dice since certain wordings make it sound as if the rogue would roll multiple dice at once... or did I miss something? The only way to build up a dice pool is through the assassin's sneak attack.

...and I do love that assassin's sneak attack, BTW. 
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning." -Mike Mearls

It looks interesting, but its DPR is going to still be abysmally low compared to a fighters. 1d8 vs. 3d10? The assassin's sneak attack will be a little too swingy as well (either too good, or worthless, depending on your DM/the situation). 

I would prefer that the ED still advance at the same rate as the fighters, and that assassin's sneak attack becomes something along the lines of "when you have advantage, if you hit with both your attack rolls you score a critical hit," but all in all it still looks more fun than what they have now.  


 


It looks interesting, but its DPR is going to still be abysmally low compared to a fighters. 1d8 vs. 3d10? The assassin's sneak attack will be a little too swingy as well (either too good, or worthless, depending on your DM/the situation). 

I would prefer that the ED still advance at the same rate as the fighters, and that assassin's sneak attack becomes something along the lines of "when you have advantage, if you hit with both your attack rolls you score a critical hit," but all in all it still looks more fun than what they have now.  


 




I keep agreeing with a wide number and style of people on this one ED for all martials damn fine idea... ummm this particular take... its overshadowing other things in peoples analaysis by how meh it is.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Bump up the damage output just a tad and I'd happily implement this into my games. Well done.

Ok, yea, the DPR is way too low. Also, I don't think the benefits of your schemes balances out all the areas where the rogue is weaker than the fighter. I like the concept. I think it is interesting. But it needs some major balance work.

Probably give every scheme +1 or 2 extra trained skills. Replace the assassin feature with the backstab feature I named above. Replace the assassin sneak attack manoeuvre with dirty fighting. Give the class the same amount of expertise dice as a fighter. Bump the HP up to d8. Then it should be ok.  

Well, it seems in the playtest, a lot of maneuvers allow you to spend multiple dice, but you only get to use the highest die roll. This Rogue could use something similar, allowing it to get the same or a similar progression of expertise dice as the Fighter...

On second glance, it seems that most of the maneuvers are already set up that way (use the highest of the expertise dice spend on this maneuver). So why the lower number of expertise dice?
Nice suggestions, OP. it's great that you emphasize all aspects of the game (combat, expl, soc) and get rid of dead levels.

Comments:
* some of your opposed rolls need work. for instance, I don't think an opposed persuade check makes much sense. Should be Persuade VS Wis or Insight or Sense motive.
* bump the damage up! The rogue could use some spikes damage moves accessible with Advantage. Maybe, round one is the setup maneuver, then the next round is a big nuke.
* I love the wording you put in the maneuvers that prevents abuse.
* the ED progression needs to be better. My personal preference is "more dice of smaller size" (while the fighter has fewer but larger dice)
* excellent use of maneuvers that use skills. I've been saying this for a while now. Rogues should do cool stuff using existing skills!

Overall, very awesome rogue suggestions. More comments later, when I'm not on the iPhone.

Please introduce yourself to the new D&D 5e forums in this very friendly thread started by Pukunui!

 

Make 5e Saving Throws better using Ramzour's Six Ability Save System!

 

Lost Mine of Phandelver: || Problems and Ideas with the adventure ||  Finding the Ghost of Neverwinter Wood ||

Giving classes iconic abilities that don't break the game: Ramzour's Class Defining Ability system.

Rules for a simple non-XP based leveling up system, using the Proficiency Bonus

 

Lokiare have you taken a shot on the suggestions to bump the damage bennies for those who want it?
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 



Assassin
You are the shadows. You bide your time and strike at the opportune moment to take enemies down in a single blow.
Feature: You can stealth even while being observed by using a distraction ("look over there", a smoke bomb, or something equally distracting).
Skills: Sneak
Maneuvers: Sneak Attack (see below), Careful Listening (See Below), Honor Among Theives (see below)




Really cool! You should develop it further and handle it to the designers. You are doing a great job here.
+1 to separate pools for combat/exploration/interaction pillars.  I've got some quips about the particular execution though.

For starters, I'm generally not a fan of this "add expertise dice to skill checks" mechanic.  A +2.5 is just as valuable at level 10 as it is at level 1, so why are we scaling it up to a +4.5 (not to mention a +8.5 with the original progression).  Don't scale up the difficulty, and it becomes impossible to fail - I know, I'm treading dangerously close to the word treadmill, but I personally don't think the game should get easier as you level up.  This becomes particularly problematic with maneuvres like "not it," allowing a rogue trained in intimidate to solo a dragon who can't fight back because the rogue's got effectly +13.5 (14 CHA, +7 intimidate, d8 ED) to intimidate while the dragon has at most +2 for about a 10% chance of failure.  Scale up the difficulty, and anyone who doesn't get maneuvres becomes useless.  Even if everyone gets maneuvres, high level characters find it statistically impossible to do anything they haven't taken the maneuvre for, and we're back to imagination-less gaming where your character sheet is an exhaustive menu of your options.  It's not that big a problem with such slow ED progression, I suppose, but it still feels sloppy to me.  

In general, I feel like too many of these maneuvers are just a higher probability of accomplishing something you could already do with skills.  You should be able to intimidate people into doing what you want, persuade them into believing you're right, bluff them into thinking you have damaging information, or entertain them with your performance, regardless of whether you took the maneuvre.  In effect, the maneuvres then become just extremely narrow skills, so why use this more complicated, restrictive mechanic for them?   Rather than increasing your chances of success at something you could already do, I'd like to see the ability do something you couldn't do before - change the magnitude of success not the probability.  Very few of these abilities do that, and most of those seem broken one way or the other (I'm looking at not it and threatening glare as broken awesome, and sneak attack as broken useless except in very select situations).  

Speaking of sneak attack, I love the concept but hate the execution.  It's not nearly enough damage to be worth considering foregoing an attack in combat, which means it relies on a situation arising where the assassin can stand in the shadows for several rounds watching his quarry before the battle begins.  While flavorful, I don't see that coming up that often against foes with enough HP to really make any use of it.  It makes the class DPS hugely dependent on the DM setting up the encounters to facilitate the player, and that makes it impossible to balance (yes the player can do something to help himself, but far too little if the DM is setting up the encounters "wrong").  Also, it'd be terribly frustrating if you spent several minutes of real time getting yourself into a position to observe the target, then spent several rounds watching him, then missed and it was all for nothing.  Oh, and you really really need a level based cap on the number of dice you can store up that way, else after five minutes of watching a first level assassin could slay a god with a lucky hit.  
Was glancing through and about to complain about the lack of skills and then saw skill master.  Nice touch!  Also, I like that Get over it only uses the best die roll (because out of combat, you will always use all of your dice.
This is a really great start.  I agree with Cyber-Dave and PRP that there is some clean up that needs to be done to broaden the class features but as a first cut this is awesome.

I was thinking about Sneak attack and it should be purely the execution of spending the dice rather than an ongoing activity to accumulate dice.  Maybe having a setup or preparation manuever that does the accumulation task.  

Also, do rogues 'build' ED each round? do they start with a pool of dice? Or is that it, just one ED (with the exception of SA)? If you had a preparation manuever, the rogue could possibly accumulate dice for whatever reason.  Maybe if you had something like:

Preparation
You take time to focus your mind on what needs to be done
Effect: You gain disadvantage on all rolls until the beginning of your next turn.  Add one expertise die to your preparation pool.  You can spend all dice in your preparation pool on any rogue manuever.  If during any turn you do not use a rogue manuever (including Preparation), remove one die from your preparation pool.
This is my opinion of what the Rogue should have been. Open up the play test classes packet and skim down to the Rogue class.

Replace the advancement chart with this one:

The Rogue
            Weapon  Expertise
Level      Attack      Dice       Class Features
1            +2          1d4         Expertise, Rogue Scheme, Combat Maneuver
2            +2          1d6         Exploration Maneuver
3            +2          1d6         Social Maneuver
4            +2          2d6
5            +3          2d6         Combat Maneuver
6            +3          2d6         Exploration Maneuver
7            +3          2d6         Social Maneuver
8            +3          2d8
9            +3          2d8         Combat Maneuver
10          +4          3d10       Exploration Maneuver

Remove the "Level 1: Expertise" part that says they get Skill Mastery automatically to say they get the Scheme Feature listed with the Scheme.

Change the Schemes as follows:

Acrobat
Feature: You gain advantage on all Tumble checks made without a timed danger element (such as combat)
Skill: Tumble
Maneuvers: Controlled Fall, Tumbling Dodge, Vault, Expert Performance (see below).

Enforcer
Feature: You gain advantage on intimidate checks against targets that have fewer hit dice than your level.
Skill: Intimidate
Maneuvers: Dirty Fighting (renamed sneak attack), Not It (see below), Threatening Glare (see below), Manipulate (see below), Get Over It (see below)

Rake
Feature: You gain advantage on bluff checks that are not hurried or threatened.
Skill: Bluff
Maneuvers: Feint (see below), Tumbling Dodge, Controlled Fall, Convincing Speech (see below)

Thief
Feature: You gain advantage on Sleight of Hand checks against targets that have fewer hit dice than you have levels.
Skill: Sleight of Hand
Maneuvers: Mug (see below), Trap Sense (see below), Unseen (see below), Black Mail (see below)

Skill Master
Feature: You gain additional skills listed below.
Skills: Choose four skills from the skill list.
Maneuvers: Dirty Fighting (renamed sneak attack), Skill Mastery, Second Chance (see below), Skill Focus (see below)

Assassin
You are the shadows. You bide your time and strike at the opportune moment to take enemies down in a single blow.
Feature: You can stealth even while being observed by using a distraction ("look over there", a smoke bomb, or something equally distracting).
Skills: Sneak
Maneuvers: Sneak Attack (see below), Careful Listening (See Below), Honor Among Theives (see below)

Maneuvers

Dirty Fighting
You use cunning and guile to deliver a deadly attack against an unsuspecting foe.
Effect: When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can spend expertise dice to increase the attack's damage against that target, provided you have advantage against the target or it is in reach of a creature friendly to you. Roll all the expertise dice you spend, and add up their results. The damage gains a bonus equal to that total. In addition if you have advantage and the creature is in reach of a creature friendly to you treat the attack as a critical hit.

Not It
You intimidate an opponent into not targeting you directly.
Effect: Make an intimidate check, roll expertise dice and add the highest dice result to the intimidate check. If the targets opposed Charisma check is lower they cannot target you directly this round. They can still include you in area effects, but they cannot be centered on you. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Threatening Glare
You keep your eye on a foe in range and make threatening gestures every chance you get distracting them.
Effect: When the target is within range of your melee attack and they make an attack against anyone but you as the target, you can roll any expertise dice you have left. They subtract the highest expertise dice result from their attack roll. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Feint
You use trickery and flattery to make a foe think you are attacking one way instead of another.
Effect: Instead of moving you may make an opposed Bluff check. Roll expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If you win the opposed check, your next attack in the same round against the target of your feint has advantage. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Convincing Speech
You give a rousing speech that anyone that doesn't know you is fooled by.
Effect: Make an opposed Persuade check. Roll any expertise dice and add the highest to the Persuade check. Each person that hears your speech and can understand it that doesn't know you well by reputation or in person can be convinced of the subject of the speech as per the Persuade skill. Those that know you gain advantage on the opposed check. The speech usually takes at least a minute or more, as decided by the DM. During this time you cannot make attacks or other checks because the nature of the speech includes body language and demeanor. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same targets grant the target advantage on their checks.

Expert Performance
You give an excellent performance by jumping and dodging and tumbling around the room, running up walls and jumping off, and other daring tricks.
Effect: Make an opposed perform or tumble check. Roll expertise dice, add the highest to the check. If you succeed, the targets are entertained by your performance. This performance can only be used in a non-dangerous situation where the Rogue is not threatened or rushed. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Manipulate
You glare menacingly at someone. They are convinced that bad things will happen if they don't agree.
Effect: Make an opposed Intimidate check. Roll expertise dice, add the highest to the check. If you succeed, the target is convinced that they will be harmed if they don't agree to what you want. You must explain what you want and you can't perform this maneuver if threatened or rushed. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Mug
As you slash you grab at an item your foe has and remove it from them.
Effect: As part of your normal attack make an opposed Sleight of Hand check. Roll expertise dice, add the highest to the check. If you succeed, you are able to take a random (DM determined) item that is not worn, held, or otherwise difficult to get at. This item could be a handful of ammo (1d8 arrows, darts, or throwing daggers), a potion, sheathed weapon, or any other similar item. Magical items cannot be taken in this way if they are attuned due to the magic bond interfering with the inattention of the target. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Trap Sense
At the last moment you realize you have triggered a trap and dodge out of the way instinctually.
Effect: When a trap causes you to make a saving throw, roll expertise dice and add the highest to your saving throw roll.

Unseen
You move in such a way that even an observer doesn't see you.
Effect: As part of a regular attack in which you have stealth, you may make a stealth check as part of your move. You must end your move in an area that allows stealth such as shadows or out of sight of the target. make an opposed stealth check. Roll your expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If you hit with your attack the target has advantage on the check. If you succeed you are stealthed. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Black Mail
Through expert use of observations and intimations you convince a person that you have something on them, whether you do or not. You also convince them that if something happens to you it will come out and ruin their reputation.
Effect: When not threatened or rushed you may make an opposed bluff or persuade check. Roll expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If you succeed you convince the target that you have some information that they don't want generally known. You also convince them that any action taken against you will automatically reveal the information to the general public. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Second Chance
You realize you have made a mistake and backtrack until you are able to correct it.
Effect: When you fail a skill check, you may roll expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If the new total allows you to succeed you succeed.

Skill Focus
You focus totally on one of your Scheme's skills to the exclusion of all else.
Requirement: Skill Mastery
Effect: When using Skill Mastery on one of your Scheme's skills you may re-roll any 1's if you are not rushed or threatened.

Get Over It
You convince yourself its only a flesh wound
Effect: When damaged outside of combat due to the environment you are able to roll expertise dice and ignore the dice result of damage.

Sneak Attack
You bide your time and strike with deadly accuracy
Effect: While stealthed you may carefully study a single target each round. When you do this you store up expertise dice. When you attack with advantage against the target you may add all of your expertise dice to the damage of the attack if you hit. In addition you count this attack as a critical hit dealing critical damage. If you miss, you lose the stored up dice. Any action other than moving causes you to lose stored up dice. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.

Careful Listening
You can tell what is going on due to your superior trained sense of hearing.
Effect: When listening you make an opposed listen check. Roll expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If you succeed you not only hear that there are specific sounds in the area, you are able to tell what those sounds are, so a slight crunch of pebbles might indicate 3 small creatures are stealthily approaching. The sound of a drip might indicate that there is a wine cask leaking in the next room.

Honor Among Theives
You can convince others with your demeanor that you honor your word when you give it.
Effect: Make an opposed persuade check. Roll expertise dice and add the highest to the check. If you succeed the target is convinced that you will not go back on your word. This doesn't mean that you actually must not go back on your word, only that the target is entirely convinced you won't. Multiple uses of this maneuver on the same target grant the target advantage on their checks.


Maneuver Categories
Combat Tumbling Dodge, Dirty Fighting (renamed sneak attack), Not It, Threatening Glare, Feint, Mug, Unseen, Sneak Attack
Exploration Controlled Fall, Vault, Get Over It, Trap Sense, Skill Mastery, Second Chance, Skill Focus, Careful Listening
Social Expert Performance, Manipulate, Convincing Speech, Black Mail, Skill Mastery, Second Chance, Skill Focus, Honor Among Theives

There probably needs to be more maneuvers to keep up with the suggested progression, but overall I just created a better Rogue in about 2 hours. I'm wondering what's going on with the developers and how the current Rogue got past their in house and friends and family testers and any mathematicians they have on hand.



Ok, updated it with some of the suggestions. Updates and new things are in blue...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
+1 to separate pools for combat/exploration/interaction pillars.  I've got some quips about the particular execution though.

For starters, I'm generally not a fan of this "add expertise dice to skill checks" mechanic.  A +2.5 is just as valuable at level 10 as it is at level 1, so why are we scaling it up to a +4.5 (not to mention a +8.5 with the original progression).  Don't scale up the difficulty, and it becomes impossible to fail - I know, I'm treading dangerously close to the word treadmill, but I personally don't think the game should get easier as you level up.  This becomes particularly problematic with maneuvres like "not it," allowing a rogue trained in intimidate to solo a dragon who can't fight back because the rogue's got effectly +13.5 (14 CHA, +7 intimidate, d8 ED) to intimidate while the dragon has at most +2 for about a 10% chance of failure.  Scale up the difficulty, and anyone who doesn't get maneuvres becomes useless.  Even if everyone gets maneuvres, high level characters find it statistically impossible to do anything they haven't taken the maneuvre for, and we're back to imagination-less gaming where your character sheet is an exhaustive menu of your options.  It's not that big a problem with such slow ED progression, I suppose, but it still feels sloppy to me.  

In general, I feel like too many of these maneuvers are just a higher probability of accomplishing something you could already do with skills.  You should be able to intimidate people into doing what you want, persuade them into believing you're right, bluff them into thinking you have damaging information, or entertain them with your performance, regardless of whether you took the maneuvre.  In effect, the maneuvres then become just extremely narrow skills, so why use this more complicated, restrictive mechanic for them?   Rather than increasing your chances of success at something you could already do, I'd like to see the ability do something you couldn't do before - change the magnitude of success not the probability.  Very few of these abilities do that, and most of those seem broken one way or the other (I'm looking at not it and threatening glare as broken awesome, and sneak attack as broken useless except in very select situations).  

Speaking of sneak attack, I love the concept but hate the execution.  It's not nearly enough damage to be worth considering foregoing an attack in combat, which means it relies on a situation arising where the assassin can stand in the shadows for several rounds watching his quarry before the battle begins.  While flavorful, I don't see that coming up that often against foes with enough HP to really make any use of it.  It makes the class DPS hugely dependent on the DM setting up the encounters to facilitate the player, and that makes it impossible to balance (yes the player can do something to help himself, but far too little if the DM is setting up the encounters "wrong").  Also, it'd be terribly frustrating if you spent several minutes of real time getting yourself into a position to observe the target, then spent several rounds watching him, then missed and it was all for nothing.  Oh, and you really really need a level based cap on the number of dice you can store up that way, else after five minutes of watching a first level assassin could slay a god with a lucky hit.  



Really, there isn't a good answer to the scaling skill check problem. I mean we could just have each dice count as a +1 so that by level 10 they get a +3 to the check, but that still breaks bounded accuracy...

As to Cyber-Daves idea to add multiple skills to the trained list. If they want to be a skill monkey they can take the Skill Master Scheme, or take the Skill Specialist Specialty. The idea is to allow those that don't like the "Skill Monkey" Rogue to have an option to get the Rogue they want.

The other complaints about the skills being able to be used to already accomplish the things they list, its really left up to the DM. In this case it gives the player agency, if they could already do it, they get a nice bonus to the check. With time many more maneuvers could be added to cover more situations...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Really, there isn't a good answer to the scaling skill check problem. I mean we could just have each dice count as a +1 so that by level 10 they get a +3 to the check, but that still breaks bounded accuracy...

Hah, bounded accuracy... In a game that gives you bonuses for magic items and insane bonuses on skill checks with skill mastery and mighty exertion, bounded accuracy is the most fragile part of the entire system.  Potentially everything that is traditionally cool in the game can break the system.  Sorry for straying OT.  

Nice changes and additions by the way.  Just one thing I'm unsure of and that is the multiple uses.  Does that mean from round to round or is that just in the same combat? 

Also, one other thing about Not It and the other combat-based manuevers that make opposed checks - should there be a cap on those?  Or maybe they would be skills which the target receives a wisdom (or whatever) save with the DC modified by the Rogue's relevant skill bonus rather than an opposed check because it's less a contest of wills and more of an attack on the senses.  i.e. a 4th level rogue with 15 cha and +2 in intimidate tries to use Not It against a Fire Giant so the giant's save DC = 10 + 2 (Cha bonus) + 2 (Intimidate).

*editted to make sense*

Lokaire, I really like this.

I may convince my group to play this version, alongside the playtest version (two rogues at once), to get a direct comparison. I'll try to remember to give feedback through this thread, if they are willing to try it. 
Feint and Threatening Glare flavor wise belongs on a fighters list. ... to what extent do you see your maneuvers as potentially cross class?
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Feint and Threatening Glare belongs on a fighters list. ... to what extent do you see your maneuvers as potentially cross class?



I think some of them can be cross class, though I'd probably allow a fighter to make a Strength check as part of their maneuver in place of an intimidate check or at least use strength as the stat.

Feel free to play test this version and give feedback. If WotC allows it I'll publish a 'module' when 5E comes out if they leave the Rogue how it is...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Dirty Fighting
You use cunning and guile to deliver a deadly attack against an unsuspecting foe.
Effect: When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can spend expertise dice to increase the attack's damage against that target, provided you have advantage against the target or it is in reach of a creature friendly to you. Roll all the expertise dice you spend, and add up their results. The damage gains a bonus equal to that total. In addition if you have advantage and the creature is in reach of a creature friendly to you treat the attack as a critical hit.



I like this as the default "sneak attack". (not particularly fond of your version of the charging sneak attack).

I like this maneuver because:
1) It requires strategy and tactics to get (advantage or double-team)....yet is flexible to allow either condition trigger the effect
2) As a normal maneuver, it bumps up damage
3) You can use this at a range too! (Fighter enganged in melee with enemy...Rogue shoots from range....still qualifies for the bonus damage)
4) The BEST part though...is that if you have BOTH conditions, you get an auto-crit. That significantly increases the rogue's DPR. They can essentially crit every other round, if they wanted to. However, this could be too overpowered. In this scenario, my brief calcs put the Rogue's DPR with this maneuver slightly above the average fighter tank and slightly below the average fighter slayer. And since this would be the new best move now, we're back to the boring stealth,attack,stealth,attack where rogue tries to gain advantage every other round.

So I clearly love the maneuver....but it would require some good playtesting to see if it breaks the game.

Please introduce yourself to the new D&D 5e forums in this very friendly thread started by Pukunui!

 

Make 5e Saving Throws better using Ramzour's Six Ability Save System!

 

Lost Mine of Phandelver: || Problems and Ideas with the adventure ||  Finding the Ghost of Neverwinter Wood ||

Giving classes iconic abilities that don't break the game: Ramzour's Class Defining Ability system.

Rules for a simple non-XP based leveling up system, using the Proficiency Bonus

 

I think it would be cool if Rogues instead of using ED just like fighters, they had a different mechanic for getting and spending ED. Specifically if they could pool Expertise die, and maybe started with a different pool.


For Example:
Rogues that have Suprise at the start of a combat begin with 5 Expertise Die [D4 @ Lvl1].
They don't replenish die at the end of their turn. Any turn that they remain undetected (hidden) for a whole turn they start with 5eD at the start of their next turn. Some manuevers can also add Expertise die to their pool. Rogues can spend as much expertise die a turn as they wish. 


A system like this steps on fighter toes less, changes the feel of a rogue somewhat. Gives them the capability to do bursty damage, or hold out ED for incredible parries etc. They can also save their sneak attack for the perfect opponent. A sytem like this could give the rogue the advantage of being really good for a turn or two, but then needed to withdraw and reset.



 

My mind is a deal-breaker.

I think it would be cool if Rogues instead of using ED just like fighters, they had a different mechanic for getting and spending ED. Specifically if they could pool Expertise die, and maybe started with a different pool.


For Example:
Rogues that have Suprise at the start of a combat begin with 5 Expertise Die [D4 @ Lvl1].
They don't replenish die at the end of their turn. Any turn that they remain undetected (hidden) for a whole turn they start with 5eD at the start of their next turn. Some manuevers can also add Expertise die to their pool. Rogues can spend as much expertise die a turn as they wish. 


A system like this steps on fighter toes less, changes the feel of a rogue somewhat. Gives them the capability to do bursty damage, or hold out ED for incredible parries etc. They can also save their sneak attack for the perfect opponent. A sytem like this could give the rogue the advantage of being really good for a turn or two, but then needed to withdraw and reset.



 


This is a good suggestion to make the Expertise Dice mechanic work differently for the Rogue; making it work & feel different is a good thing, in my opinion.