Why does the 5mwd thread have 18000 hits?

I haven’t been following it, can someone briefly explain the issue? I have to believe that it must be an issue based on the fact that it has 18 thousand hits. Thanks for your time and help.


Post thread synopsis: 


To anyone just looking for a quick clean recap of the issue I will do my best in this synopsis. The argument has spilled into this thread and I have a developed a basic understanding of it. As a note, I haven’t played actual D&D for well over 10 years, and I don’t have a dog in this fight one way or the other.


There are 2 different camps arguing: on one side are the traditional “story telling D&Ders” to them the 5mwd can easily be solved by natural interaction with the game world. The other side is the “play it out of the box war-gamer crowd”. To these folks the story is of secondary consideration, The game for them is a tactical problem to be solved. They don’t want to be forced into using storyline to fix a mechanic that imbalances adventure encounters as written.


Neither side wants to concede because fixing the issue will result in changing some core mechanics that are not working well for some groups and are working just fine for others.


 

Elves, Gates, Book-binding and Doom On the Rocks: Breaking rules and lichen maps Is character development killing exploration in our games?
Long story short: what stops wizards from using all of their daily spells and then demanding that people rest for the day. It was a big issue in 3e. But, given the mechanics of DDN right now, it is really a bit of a non-issue...
5mwd is not an issue for many gaming groups and the mechanic changes wanted by those worried about 5mwd is a total turn off for a number of roleplayers from WOTC products if those changes were implemented
Long story short: what stops wizards from using all of their daily spells and then demanding that people rest for the day. It was a big issue in 3e. But, given the mechanics of DDN right now, it is really a bit of a non-issue...



I have not seen that problem in 3.x E and if it occured would it be easy to handle via in game campaign events

 It can be an issue for some groups and could be abused with spell casters in previous editions and every class in 4th ed. YMMV and its an individual DM/pacing  issue really.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 


I haven’t been following it, can someone briefly explain the issue? I have to believe that it must be an issue based on the fact that it has 18 thousand hits. Thanks for your time and help.




Some people don't see it as an issue and some people do.  Some of the ones that don't see it as an issue think "natural consequences" of using a shortened working day balance out the inherent power of doing so.  

Plus I think there's a fair amount of edition warring going on in the thread as well.

I'm not sure I 100% agree with Cyber-dave that it's a non-issue but so far to me it does seem to be LESS of an issue than in3e. 
...your proposed solution to this problem is passive-aggression? You're really doing your best to uphold the stereotype, aren't you, Gustav?



Intelligent realistic monster behaviour in dungeons combined with having the rest of the world advance in time means that it has not been an issue I have observed.
Heavy edition warring going on in there. I stopped following about 900 posts back for sake of my brain leaking out of the side of my head...
My two copper.
Long story short: what stops wizards from using all of their daily spells and then demanding that people rest for the day. It was a big issue in 3e. But, given the mechanics of DDN right now, it is really a bit of a non-issue...



I have not seen that problem in 3.x E and if it occured would it be easy to handle via in game campaign events





Yea, yea, I know. 3.x E was perfect. Except it wasn't. I know you love the game, but the 5mwd caused major problems for many groups. There were many spells that allowed you to magically create the opportunity for rest anywhere in the game. Story reasons designed to stop that from happening amounted to Dias Ex Machina. Dias Ex Machina tends to jar a lot of players out of their immersion. So, the option was to either ruin immersion or allow an overpowered problem to continue. Sure, once in a while there was a good story reason to avoid allowing a 5mwd. But, very often, there was not. 

Thank god that in DDN there are no spells that really allow that anymore. That means that most of the time there is a good story reason to avoid the 5mwd. Sometimes there won't be. Most of the time there will. Sort of the inverse of 3e, really...

Basic breakdown:

3 or 4 guys claiming it's a big deal and want rules implemented to change it / stop it.
3 or 4 guys claiming it's NOT a big deal and don't want rules changed due to it.
A few other people who have popped in, said their peace, then vanished. 
+/- 20 constructive posts.
1,600+ posts of flaming, baiting, edition-warring, general gnashing of teeth, and carefully prancing around the CoC.

Why does it have 18,000+ views?
People like to watch train-wrecks.  
Heavy edition warring going on in there. I stopped following about 900 posts back for sake of my brain leaking out of the side of my head...



I thought as much but to be honest a lot of the folks who regularly engage in that sort of garbage are on my block list so I don't see their posts unless someone quotes them.  In fact one of the nice things about such threads is it quickly brings out the trolls and edition warriors so I can include them on the block list.
Money Mouth

Long story short: what stops wizards from using all of their daily spells and then demanding that people rest for the day. It was a big issue in 3e. But, given the mechanics of DDN right now, it is really a bit of a non-issue...



I have not seen that problem in 3.x E and if it occured would it be easy to handle via in game campaign events





Yea, yea, I know. 3.x E was perfect. Except it wasn't. I know you love the game, but the 5mwd caused major problems for many groups. There were many spells that allowed you to magically create the opportunity for rest anywhere in the game. Story reasons designed to stop that from happening amounted to Dias Ex Machina. Dias Ex Machina tends to jar a lot of players out of their immersion. So, the option was to either ruin immersion or allow an overpowered problem to continue. Sure, once in a while there was a good story reason to avoid allowing a 5mwd. But, very often, there was not. 

Thank god that in DDN there are no spells that really allow that anymore. That means that most of the time there is a good story reason to avoid the 5mwd. Sometimes there won't be. Most of the time there will. Sort of the inverse of 3e, really...




It is still easy to handle it as a GM if you improvise and say, well the players disappeared for 8 hours, during those 8 hours has the evil guys in the dungeon
1) Called in reinforcements
2) build barricades at strategic locations
3) buried all their tressure
4) Important npc dude has fled the complex
simultaneously
has a competitor adventure group managed to beat the players to another dungeon that some of the players really wanted to explore after this one.
Give it a while and the argument will spill onto here. That should answer your question.

Why does it have 18,000+ views?
People like to watch train-wrecks.  


I dunno.  I'd put this one more on par with the Mythbusters rocket sled vs car.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Give it a while and the argument will spill onto here. That should answer your question.


A while?  It already has.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
5mwd stands for 5 minute work day. The tendecy of parties to go into fights, blow all of their daily powers and then retreat and rest. It is classicly targeted at wizards, who where the pimary users of daily powers prior to 4e. However in 4e everybody had daily powers and the problem was actually often worse in 4e then in 3e.

It is actually a very complex problem both mechanically and stylistically. Style is important here, because how much this problem impacts your game depends heavily on style. Mechanically because it involves the fundamental mechanics and balance of the game.

If a campaign is the sort with a lot of one fight days, which isn't uncommon in games where combat is rare or the DM prefers single big set piece fights, this is a huge problem. If the game favors more balanced work loads and a fair amount of uncertainty over how many fights the party might face, then it isn't as much of a problem. If the style of campaign favors tightly scripted adventures, then the uncertainty in pacing that daily powers and the 5mwd cause create problems. If the game favors more opened ended adventures and the party retreating from tough fights to prepare then it isn't much of a problem at all.

The only way remove the problem entirely is remove daily powers entirely. Strictly speaking, this would include HP, which are a daily resource in the end, without or without healing surges. However, very few people would suggest that far, though more would like the idea of removing daily character powers in general. The problem with removing daily powers in general is that it robs the game of strategic depth, characters in this sort of game never get tired or run out resources and every fight plays the same. It also robs the game of some character depth, because it forces all classes onto the same power distribution, there isn't any trade off between classes with constant fire power and ones that trade constant power for strategic impact.

Give it a while and the argument will spill onto here. That should answer your question.



Pretty sure it already has but since I have the person in question on ignore I'm not positive
 

Oh I didn’t understand, thanks all. Having come to understand the issue I have developed a very strong opinion about this myself. It’s definitely not a non-issue! And anyone who thinks otherwise less than half wrong! 

Heavy edition warring going on in there. I stopped following about 900 posts back for sake of my brain leaking out of the side of my head...



The sad thing is that it's really not an edition specific issue. Granted the 5MWD is more serious in pre-4E editions, because it can create a schism in class balance between caster/noncaster. But even in 4E, you can still rest and recover your dailies and fight 1 encounter per day. It's not as big a party issue, but it's always going to be an adventure design issue.

Because when you don't know when the party will recover their abilities, it's much harder to write encounters, because you have no idea at what power level the PCs will enter the encounter. The party could be anywhere between "running on fumes" and "fully powered". Now, even in 4E, that's still an issue, it's just not as big of an issue because 4E focuses less on daily powers.

But the 5MWD for the most part is an edition-neutral problem, and the fix could be equally edition-neutral.


Thank god that in DDN there are no spells that really allow that anymore.

 

Unfortunately, the nature of DnD as an expandable, multi-authored ruleset means that you can't solve problems by omitting an element that would exploit that particular hole in the rules, because someone later will probably write it. The actual hole needs to be fixed.



...yea, not quite. The game is released by one company. All the company needs to do is not release any spells that allow people to rest wherever they want, magically. If the designers keep that as one of their mandates, and it seems they are, the game is fine. If you add a house rule that allows you to do so at your table, it is your own fault for doing so. If you buy 3rd party material you need to check it for balance yourself. If you fail to do so, it is your own fault. 

We will have to agree to disagree. I think your claims are as out there as Gustavs. Right now, DDN is fine. 


5mwd stands for 5 minute work day. The tendecy of parties to go into fights, blow all of their daily powers and then retreat and rest. It is classicly targeted at wizards, who where the pimary users of daily powers prior to 4e. However in 4e everybody had daily powers and the problem was actually often worse in 4e then in 3e.





I've played multiple campaigns including 2 into epic levels (ones about to wrap up with us going after one of the biggest baddest demons in our universe Pennywise the Clown from Steven King's IT) and for us the 5mwd has NEVER been an issue in 4e despite it being an issue in 3e.  Our GM makes jokes about us going for 10-12-14 encounters before we do a rest.

Yes everyone has dailies but they are proportionally a much less important part of a party's resources than in previous editions (where they were ALL a party had- once you were out of healing spells in the cleric and/or the wizard was out of bang the party had to retreat or risk a wipe)
 
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Yes everyone has dailies but they are proportionally a much less important part of a party's resources than in previous editions (where they were ALL a party had- once you were out of healing spells in the cleric and/or the wizard was out of bang the party had to retreat or risk a wipe)
 



Not if the party had resources like healing potions, cure light wound wands etc
I actually think the problem was less of an issue with 4E, despite EVERYONE having Daily powers. This, I feel, was mitigated by Surge-based healing and Encounter Powers. At least, that's how it was for our group. Sure, if you blew your BIG Dailies then you go into each fight there after wondering if you'll need them again but thats when we took a bigger toll on our Healing Surge. Not having dailies meant that combat might take longer, which was a stronger pull on Healing resources. Because only one or two classes per group had these options in 3E, I feel illustrated the problem a bit more. It was the rogue and Fighter or Monk who rolled their eyes when the Wizard or Cleric complained that they were pretty much done for the day (as their spells dwindled) and we all had to rest at their (and our HP's) expense. In came Complete Mage and at least mitigated the problem a bit for them as well parties who included Warlocks, Dragon Shamans, and Dragonfire Adepts.  

I haven’t been following it, can someone briefly explain the issue? I have to believe that it must be an issue based on the fact that it has 18 thousand hits. Thanks for your time and help.




10-15 view per post is pretty typical for a thread.  Lots of people check in to read responses every so often, but they often don't post when they do.
I am sorry, but I don't submit to bashing companies or designers. I also don't submit to trying to put chastity locks on an editions rule system in order to protect it against what-if scenarios. That is what DMs are for. If the designers start fubaring rules in the future, then DMs should start treating the splat books like 3rd party products. Failing to do so is the DMs fault. After all, all splat books amount to modules. Adding in a module that changes the game in a way you don’t like is your own fault.

I am sorry, but I don't submit to bashing companies or designers. I also don't submit to trying to put chastity locks on an editions rule system in order to protect it against what-if scenarios. That is what DMs are for. If the designers start fubaring rules in the future, then DMs should start treating the splat books like 3rd party products. Failing to do so is the DMs fault. After all, all splat books amount to modules. Adding in a module that changes the game in a way you don’t like is your own fault.




I have usually used the rule
Only those books on the following list (hand out list to players) is allowed to choose material from for character building unless I specifically introduce the option for something in another book as a quest reward
I agree with Cyber-Dave because his thumbnail is sweet and erachima's is creepy.
I agree with Cyber-Dave because his thumbnail is sweet and erachima's is creepy.



Nice reasoning. I just flip coins since I have no artistic aesthetics...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Gustav's pic looks like someone I would buy insurance from. And I have a love hate relationship with my insurance agent. So I ignore everything he says unless it says "final notice".
Gustav's pic looks like someone I would buy insurance from. And I have a love hate relationship with my insurance agent. So I ignore everything he says unless it says "final notice".



Insurance, the first scam perpetrated on the U.S. people by the government...Smile

There used to be a law where I live where you could set aside X amount of money in a bank account and sign it over to the state and never have to have insurance. If I were rich and a safe driver I would do that instead of pay monthly or yearly payments with no return on investment. I mean figure up how much you have paid on insurance in your life and then calculate out how much you have used your insurance. I'm sure you will come up with a big surplus on the insurance side...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.

Heh. My thumbnail is a photograph of me and my fiancé having absinthe and beer in Paris. Thank you for the compliment! I will let her know that our picture is “sweet.” I am sure she will get a kick. 

Gustav's pic looks like someone I would buy insurance from. And I have a love hate relationship with my insurance agent. So I ignore everything he says unless it says "final notice".



Smile lol, it is actually a true picture of me, the same one i use when debating reform proposals of the economy in newspaper blogs

I agree with Cyber-Dave because his thumbnail is sweet and erachima's is creepy.



Oh scrap that, I just found a post where Cyber-dave says Dias ex machina! WTF if you are going to get all pretentious and bust out with Sententiae then you must be correct in their use and grammar. From this point on I am siding with Gustav!

Dias Ex Machina indeed! Ms. Craib would throw a trashcan at a student for that sort of thing. A heavy metal trashcan full of trash!
And then she would give you an "F" with a low rating for effort. And give you a slip for detention.
I agree with Cyber-Dave because his thumbnail is sweet and erachima's is creepy.


I usually agree with erachima since I've seen him around the 4e boards and he's a bit harsh(....a bit), but I've never seen him get into a discussion that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I agree with Cyber-Dave because his thumbnail is sweet and erachima's is creepy.


I usually agree with erachima since I've seen him around the 4e boards and he's a bit harsh(....a bit), but I've never seen him get into a discussion that he doesn't know what he's talking about.



Cyber dave almost won, but the Latin mistake is utterly unforgivable. As for Erachima I could agree with it if it would change its thumbnail, but until then it is just not presidential material. so that leaves Gustav. And as I read over this thread I find myself agreeing with him. Ha! The power of the 5mwd is powerful!

Dias Ex Machina indeed! Ms. Craib would throw a trashcan at a student for that sort of thing. A heavy metal trashcan full of trash!



lol
Cyberdave wins because of the cute lady in the pic- she should dump the dorky lookin guy thoughTongue Out
Gah. And my lack of grammatical knowledge in relation to latin bites again! No cruel world!!!!! No!!!!!!!!!!! 

All right, well, I have had one too many shots of whiskey. Me and my sweet thumbnail are loging off. Good night! 

Heh. My thumbnail is a photograph of me and my fiancé having absinthe and beer in Paris. Thank you for the compliment! I will let her know that our picture is “sweet.” I am sure she will get a kick. 



It is a great pic. It brings me to a place in France drinking Absinthe with someone that I love. Thanks for sharing.