The damage to a limb can be considered for the DM as non-lethal damage as described any attack that can't kill a character can be treated as non-lethal damage then a weapon like a rapier can do non-lethal damage attaking a limb (DM Discretion)
Then if you have all your body but only a arm out of the pool of acid this can count as total immersion.
Sorry Oma, the ring is takes 10d6 damage in the case of total immersion. A Flask of Acid can be used as a thrown splash weapon, but it can also be used in other ways.If I filled a small Metal pot, hardness 5, HP 10 with the acid from the flask, it would do 1d6 damage per round to the pot until it leaked out. (apr 20 minutes)So what we have here is a Flask of acid that deals 1d6 damage per round, or 10d6 on total immersion, that if used as a thrown splash weapon will do 1d6 damage that apparently counts as a round of exposure (ie is done instantly)QED
It splashes the target in a dirrect hit for 1d6 acid, it splashes those adjacent for 1 point.It's a thrown SPLASH weapon. There is no different ruleset a splash weapon works by breaking "on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects" straight out of the rules compendium. It's not a new rule either it is the exact same rule as before. And I laughed at you before when you went out of your way to quote the entire rule but snipped out this first damning part that contradicted you. I know you want it to be blunt force trauma from the flask breaking, but sadly that doesn't do any real damage at all. In short it works by splashing it's target with acid. And no matter how you selectively quote on half sentences from the rules, we have these books and can read the entire entry.
MAKING A THROW
To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target.
Thrown weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you never take a –4 nonproficiencypenalty.
A hit deals direct hit damage to the target and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet ofthat target.
You can instead target a specific grid intersection, unless that intersection is part of a Large or larger creature’s space in that case, you’re aiming at the creature.
If you can aim at the chosen grid intersection, make a ranged attack against AC 5. Creatures in all squares adjacent to the grid intersection are dealt the splash damage if you hit. Direct hit damage isn’t dealt to any creature.
Acid: You can throw a flask of acid as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A direct hit deals 1d6 points of acid damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the acid hits takes 1 point of acid damage from the splash.
The Damage type is still Acid Damage Oma, you are arguing the rules on how it hits the target, but the end result is the flask breaks, splashes the target for 1d6 acid damage.You are just dancing around the rules to obfuscate an irrelevant point. Using it as a weapon does not change it's DAMAGE TYPE. Thrown, used as a club, opened and poured over you in your sleep. It deals 1d6 Acid Damage and that is all that is relevant
what have the damage type with the rule set to apply the damage???
what have the damage type with the rule set to apply the damage???The ruleset you keep refering to is how to use a Ranged Attack, or rather a Thrown Splash Weapon, which in turn does a Damage Type. Acid Damage is an Energy Type, specifically Energy: Acid. This means Energy resistance:Acid will stop a flask of Acid from doing damage.You can keep dancing in circles to obfuscate this point, but it is acid damage, how it hits the target isn't relevant. The Longbow shot's arrows as a Ranged Attack, that doesn't change how arrows inflict Piercing Damage. Nor Does a Dagger used as a Ranged Thrown Weapon change how it's damage is dealt.It deals damage in the form of an Acid Effect, which falls under the rules of Acid effects. 1d6 Acid Effect, done instantly. You keep dancing around disagreeing with this, while saying this is how it works.Oma, Yes or No?Does an Acid Flask do 1d6 Acid Damage instantly?
The language in the DMG was meant to show exactly that, "it counts as a round of exposure" means it is dealt instantly as an attack. Just as a Dragon's breath weapon is dealt instantly.
And this works well in the game, If I am bull rushed on the enemies turn and pushed into a vat of acid, I take Acid damage, I cast teleport as a swift action on my turn and am out of the acid.I've only been in the acid for 1 second, but it counts as a round.And that's the point, it doesn't matter if I've been in the acid for an entire round, if I was in half the round, if I was only in for a brief moment, it counts as a round and I take the 10d6 damage.
When any length of exposure deals the same damage, even an instant exposure, then the only consistant way is to deal the damage at the start of exposure, and the beginning of the round (since you may not be in the acid the entire round)
To which the Effects rule takes place. Acid deals damage per round, meaning exposure to acid deals 1 round of the acid effect, so the initial Acid Effect ends just before the beginning of the next round on the same Initiative.
You've taken the initial damage and won't take any more for that round. At the start of the next round you are subject to the acid damage again.
-If you take damage at the start of exposure (when you fall in) on the first round, you should take damage at the start of exposure on subsequent rounds
-The Concentration Check rule would require damage to be rolled at the start of the round in order to determine the DC for checks during that round.
And the final round of an effect in the concentration rules also indicates that such damage would be resolved at the start of a round.
-Flash Effect deals same damage as half a round of exposure and the same as prolonged exposure for an entire round, so the only consistant time to roll damage is at the start of exposure and at the start of a round of exposure.
Nowhere does it say under the rukles that the number of rounds an effect lasts has to be pre-determined. In this case it lasts a number of rounds until you are removed from the effect. Leaving the acid would make that the final round.
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Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.
The language in the DMG was meant to show exactly that, "it counts as a round of exposure" means it is dealt instantly as an attack. Just as a Dragon's breath weapon is dealt instantly.
The language in the DMG was meant to show how much damage is dealt, not when it occurs during a round (which is arbitrary and variable).
You take the initial damage, and if you're still in the acid when the enemy's turn comes around again, you take the next dose of damage since that's when it was triggered. The amount of time you actually spent in the acid is irrelevant in this case, since it's not applying on your turn.
Note that the idea of spreading out that damage is only really valid for effects that trigger on the character's turn, since otherwise they're being dealt damage that doesn't relate to their own actions in any way (so it can't spread across their actions).
If the acid effectively has its own turn before/after everyone in the initiative, or if an enemy starts the acid damage by pushing you in on their own turn, there's no connection to the victim's actions.
If you're dealt the same damage regardless of the exposure time, it makes no difference when you decide to apply it during the turn.
That's true for acid effects that last for a certain number of rounds, but not for an acid pit. Pits of acid don't have a specific duration.
Well, one round later anyway. It's unlikely to be at the start of a turn unless you mean an entire round if you fell in the acid before entering initiative (in which case the acid effectively has its own turn at the start/end of each round of initiative), since it probably wasn't triggered at the start of a round.
True, but later rounds of exposure only start at the beginning of your own turn in the initiative if that's when the effect triggered in the first place.
Since it's always based on the last amount of damage dealt, there's absolutely no requirement that it be rolled at the start of the round. You will always have taken some previous damage if you're suffering continuous damage, and if you haven't come to the right point to deal that damage again, all it means is that the damage from the previous roll is still being used.
Again, it's based on whether or not the last damage dealt was the last amount that could be dealt, but whether or not that occurred in your own current turn is irrelevant. If it was applied on an enemy's turn, it works just as well using the damage that was rolled then.
That's mostly true (except during your own turn, when the possibility exists for it to be spread out), but the start of a round of exposure is rarely going to coincide with the start of your own turn in the initiative. If initial exposure occurs outside of your turn in the initiative, then each subsequent round of exposure also starts outside of your turn.
"Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."The number of rounds has to be certain in order for it to be classified as ending just before the same initiative count. There is no way to tell with any kind of certainty when you will escape a pit of acid (unlike a spell with a predetermined duration). This is also true when determining whether or not the last damage dealt is the last damage the effect could deal.
In both cases, you cannot predetermine the end of the effect (you could always end up spending longer in the acid than you thought)
so you are saying it is an instant effect, but it isn't an instant effect? That is rather conlficting, confusing You are dancing in circles trying to obfuscate the fact that Acid Damage is an Acid Effect.Walk up to your pit of acid, the one that does 10d6 damage with fill a flask.You now have a flask of acid. Flask of acid does 1d6 Acid Damage. What type of damage? You know to over come DR and resistances etc? Damage Type, Energy: Acid, It's as simple as that.Page 48 of the rules Compendium under EnergySome effects use or create energy, dealing damage according o the type of energy used. Energy comes in five types: acid, cold, electricity, fire and sonic. The types of energy help to determine whether certain creatures are more resistant or more vulnerable to the attack that uses that energy It's important to note that it is an Energy effect because that determines that it is affected by things like Acid Immunity, Energy Resistance or Acid Vulnerability. A physical attack such as Piercing damage can't be resisted, it is covered with Damage Reduction.Dance around and try to obfuscate it all you want, but it is Acid, the same acid in your pit and it follows these rules. The Flask is an Acid EffectThat this is an acid effect that deals the damage instantly, it proves that an instant of exposure counts as a round of exposure, and therefore the damage is dealt instantly, up front at the start of the effect (or upon initial exposure)
Again Oma, you are saying "it isn't an Acid effect, but it is an acid effect"It is Acid, it does Acid Damage, all the appropriate effects of acid apply, including immunity and Energy Resistance and Invulnerability. A Tiny object in a Flask would be 10d6 Damage.I am pointing out that these effects "count as a round of exposure" meaning nothing more then they do the damage instantly!There are no new rules, no "different set of rules" Acid Imunity, Resistance and Vulnerability works the same on a flask of acid as it does a pool of acid, the damage is handled in the exact same way.
Sorry again the rule set of attacks and exposure are no longer the same.As described the acid deal 1d6 of damage in her weapon entry.
Again if you have DR 50/ piercing no matter if you fail a reflex save, if you are beaten , if you fall from too high or if you are grappled, you take less damage of all kinds of non-piercing damageThe same way no matter how you take acid damage if you are immunity you dont take the damage.
Again the type of the damage dont have to do with the rule set to how apply the damage.
When Hit with a Acid Sword or Flask of Acid the damage is dealt instantly, upon exposure. The "counts as a round" was meant simply to indicate this so that Instant Acid Effects from weapons, Breath Weapons, Spells it instant effects would not be confused.
Consistancy and other actions, such as Ready an Action. Pits of acid aren't the only case, so consistancy is the rules is important. They always function the same way.
Also in the case of a trap, that a person walks into before initiative was rolled, it is retroactive. Initiative should have started when they were in range of interacting with the trap with the players as Unaware. So initiative shoudl be applied retroactively. It is pretty obvious that the player who walked into a trap did so on his own turn.
Yes it does, because it effects your subsequent actions. If the acid kills you then you aren't going to be able to get out of the pool and walk about. If the damage is the saem, regardless of the time of exposure, then you need to front load it for that reason.
Also being in the acid doesn't stop the enemy from attacking you in some way, like shooting arrows, etc. So it needs to be resolved in a consistant way. With an unknown duration the only consistant way is to deal it at the start of a round on the same initiative it began"
Being exposed to acid deals 1 round of damage, it's a misdenomer to suggest that it isn't a fixed duration and therefore doesn't fall under the Effect rules.If you fall into acid you take damage for 1 round, that round ends just before the beginning of the subsequent round. That is a fixed duration of 1 round. On the next round, if you are still in the acid, then you take 1 round of damage (also a fixed duration)While being in the acid is not a fixed duration, the resulting effect (damage) is a fixed 1-round duration.
Also if you wish to argue that there is no duration, then that makes the acid an instant effect under every situation, You will note that it doesn't say "acid deals damage as a full round action" I don't mean to argue this, but you are saying it one full round duration, while saying it doesn't have a duration.
Again, initiative should be retroactively applied, Objects don't get initiative. The DM should start initiative with the player falling into the trap as being the first turn of the first round.
That is why you only get 1 action in a suprise round, because you are halfway through a turn ussually. ie Walk into a room (move action) and see some goblins, suprise round occurs and you take your remaining action for that round.
Character walks into an acid trap (move action) and triggers it, roll initiative and complete the second half of that turn. This is a suprise round as the players who's initiative were before his are treated as unaware. Now normally I wouldn't use initiative for something like this outside of combat, i would simply give all the other characters in his party a turn before his in no particular order since they can delay their turn anyways, and this amounts to the same thing (everyone gets a turn in between each of your turns) Initiative is only needed if there is an anemy present.Either way, having the Damage occur (outside of initiative) is a nonsensical arguement, it should be tied to the action/turn that triggered it. ie you walked into it, it's your action/turn
We both agree on this, as I am talking of a trap I am simply assuming that the victem was the one who triggered it.
I will strongly disagree, all effects/results of the previous round are finished at the end of that round. You also have the damage from one round effecting 2 complete rounds, and that is patently absurd. This is no different then saying, well you got hit by a sword on the previous turn, so you need to make a concentration check.
You only make a concentration check for damage that occurs on the same round you cast the spell on. The rules are clear on this too.
Again, the rules must be consistant, it works the same regardless of who's turn it is done on. If it is the enemy's turn what if I counterspell him? No I am casting a spell halfway through his turn, so when the damage is resolved on his turn is important. The same goes if he wants to target a spell on me, he needs to determine the result of the damage on me if it will effect the spell he is casting.
It still must be resolved the same way each and every time, regardless of who's turn it occurs on because it can effect the actions of others, if the character is a legitimate target of spells, if the character has readied an action, etc as mentioned above. The rule needs to be consistant.
Spells and other effects can be ended prematurely too, They can be dispelled, overwritten, Cured, supressed in antimagic fields or in some cases voluntarily removed on will.
There are to points of certainty, one that exposure to acid deals damage per round, which is 1 round of effect if the target is in the acid. That would end just before the begining of the next round. At the beginning of the new round you would determine if they were still in the acid, if they are, you would do the process again, just as you would if this was the first time they fell into the acid.It doesn't require a duration beyond "exposure does a round of damage" If you are exposed to acid then you take damage from that acid for that round. If you are exposed again on the next round you will take damage just like you did the round before. Regardless of when you are exposed in the following round. You could start in the acid, or you could fall back into the acid.All that needs to be determined is the end of the round in which you were exposed.You aren't taking damage because of an effect, you are taking damage because you are in the acid at the beginning of a round. It's a new round so falling into the acid is the same as starting in the acid.-My turn I leap into the acid, take 10d6 damage and then climb out, My next turn I leap into the acid and take 10d6 damage and then climb out.-My turn I fall into the acid, take 10d6 damage and fail my swim check, My next turn I am still in the acid so I take 10d6 damage.-The orc bullrushes me into the acid, I take 10d6 damage, on my turn I fail my swim check and stay in, on the orc's next turn I am in the acid I take 10d6 damage-The orc bullrushes me into the acid, I take 10d6 damage, on my turn I make my swim check and climb out, on the orc's next turn he bull rushes me into the acid again, I take 10d6 damageIt is a new round, so any time that I am exposed to the acid, for whatever reason, at whatever time, I will take damage from that exposure upon being exposed.
The Start of exposure is the only thing that isn't a variable. Initial exposure and the beginning of a round are the only 2 times where it is not a variable. So applying damage at those times is the only way to be consistant.
In the former case, the damage always applies at the exposure time, which is a consistent way to apply damage once-per-round. The latter involves applying damage at a point which will sometimes be one round later, but often will not; that's inconsistent, since it changes the timing of the damage application.
You realise that DR doesn't stop Energy Damage, Spells and Supernatural abilitiesYou have demonstrated just how completely out of touch you are with the rules of the game here.
A Tiny object in a Flask would be 10d6 Damage.
That would be largely useless, since those effects for weapons, breath weapons, spells, and so forth have absolutely no need to refer to the DMG's section on environmental acid effects. All it would do is confuse the issue of whether or not you can take damage from them more than once per round.
No, they don't. It's entirely consistent for the rules to behave differently to accomodate different circumstances. Even in the acid effects section, you've got a different amount of damage dealt by different levels of exposure, and a poisonous fumes effect that only applies when large bodies of acid are present.It's true that other effects could apply during other turns, and you could certainly make the argument for also spreading the damage out a bit on those turns if the acid was dealt during that turn and if it makes any difference to the victim.
Consistency is important, but it means that the result should be consistent with the effect, not that all effects should be treated as identical
you are saying that both are the same rules then if the rule set from an acid flask is the same that the one from the acid pool why you are saying that if a creature swiming a acid pool take more that 1d6 but a tiny creature damaged for an acid flask only take 1d6????
The rule for the Acid Flask is that deal 1d6 only if you use it as a WEAPON.The rule for the same Acid Flask as a non-Weapon (exposure) work like Acid Effect dealing damage per round.
Oma, because an object the size of a ring inside a glass of water is totally immersed the same as a person in your pit of acid.I suggested 50% and 74% immersion because the game lacked rules for volume of acid vs creature size. There is an obvious difference between acid dripping from a cave roof (1d6) and wading waist deep (50%) through a river of acid and being totally immersed swimming across a lake of acid. It would be a reasonable ruling for a DM over a rule that the book doesn't cover.Swimming shoudl count as full immersion, because the body core, the torso, is fully immersed, also the normal method of swimming requires you to get your head wet. treading slowly with head out of the water would further reduce your movement. Noone Doggy paddles in the Olympics.
The point being that the Damage from an Acid Flask is an Acid Effect, and that "counts as a round of exposure" meant nothing more then the damage was instant. The point being that there are no "new rules" regarding Acid Effects or Thrown Splash Weapons.
Which is why they took the statement out, it is a confusing way to say it is an instant effect. Obviously (or at least it should be) a Flask of Acid or Sword could strike different areas of the body, and that Spells, magic Swords and Breath Weapons are magical in nature, not mundane, and so can deal multiple damages.
You could spread the damage out, but this would be a house rule as there is no ruleset in the game for doing this, certainly not for doing some of the damage each turn. It also confuses the issue of Energy Resistance, so if I decide it is more realistic to deal damage out 2d6 per turn, rather then 10d6 a round, then there is the chance that Resistance could be applied to each of these seperately, as well as bypassing the Massive Damage rule.
And again, it doesn't take a Full-Round of exposure to deal the damage either. Being in the acid for only a Move Action of time is the same as being in the acid for an Full Round, so you can't be consistant in spreading out 10d6 Damage over an indeterminate length of time.
There is no rule for half or partial damage from being immersed, so there is no way to spread it out when you don't know how long they will be exposed for, and you can't divide the damage with an unknown variable.
The identicle effect should be treated as identicle however. There shouldn't be different rules for the same effect. The Damage should be applied the same regardless of who's turn it is taken on, or if the character falls into it during initiative or before initiative.
Starting a turn in Acid should be treated the same as being pushed into the acid. You are exposed to acid so you take Damage.
If at any time during a round you are immersed in Acid, either by falling, being pushed in or by starting the round immersed, you take damage.
The DMG section on Acid Effects never says anything about the timing being instant or otherwise. It notes the amount of damage you take per round, the fact that you can have poisonous fumes from large amounts of acid, and nothing more of any relevance.
They took the statement out because it makes no sense in a section covering environmental acid (since neither of their examples were typical products of the environment).
Applying the damage at the start of a turn is also a houserule, since it's not stated anywhere that damage always applies at the start of the round.
Yes and no. Initial exposure takes no particular time, but receiving the second dose of continuous exposure requires that you spend an entire round exposed.
You'd be dividing full damage. There's nothing wrong with rolling the full damage, applying resistance to it, and still spreading it out across the round.
The only reason to turn to the Concentration skill in this case is that it's practically the only thing giving as any hint at when the damage applies during a round (other than "one round later than last time").
And of course there isn't a real difference when the situations are identical. But we've been constantly comparing non-identical situations.
And you do. You take damage on initial exposure, and you take further damage one round later.
Starting your turn immersed wouldn't necessarily count if you've already taken damage that round, since the standard to which you adhere is "once per round". If a foe pushes you in, you take damage on their turn, and one round later on their next turn.
Oma, attack and damage are two seperate things, which is why you roll dice differently for each. The Attack causes an Effect. Many spells require attack rolls for rays, ranged and melee touch attacks, etc and thus require a Ranged Touch Attack, Ray of Frost is Cold Energy Damage, but requires a Ranged Touch Attack. the spell, Flame Blade needs a Melee Touch Attack and does Fire Energy Damage. Shocking Grasp deals Electric Energy damage on a Melee Touch Attack. You also need to do a melee touch attack for cure light wounds and teleport and invisibility against unwilling targets, (it's assumed willing targets allow you to touch them)You are confusing yourself because there is no such thing as Attack Damage. You attack to hit the target and then deal Damage Type accordingly, in this case you are attacking with an Energy Effect. If You attacks a target with DR 5 and Energy Resistance:fire 5 with a +1 Fiery Longsword, +1d6 Fire Damage, you would roll 1d8+4 (the +1 longsword & +3 str modifier) vs the DR and +1d6 Seperately vs the Fire Resistance. The Fire on the Fiery Longsword is a Fire Energy Effect.That is why you need to read the first heading on page 42 of the RC, Damage Types and the Energy Damage entry below and the first Heading on page 48 under Energy. The Damage from a Acid Flask is an Acid Effect.
Oma, again the rules don't say "damage per Full-Round of exposure" just damage per round.And You have just said in essense that an attack "counts as a round of exposure"