How encompassing is Magic Weapon enhancement?

432 posts / 0 new
Last post

LOL

very easy

If you use the Flask to do an Attack as a TSW this deal 1d6 instant damage like any other attack under the rule of TSW.

If you dont use the Flask to attack and you only put the ring in the acid flask this not is an attack then work under the rules of acid effect and the ring take 1d6 of damage or 10 d 6 of damage per round of exposure this mean that you can put the ring 1 second in the acid and quickly get out the ring and the ring dont take any damage.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
The damage to a limb can be considered for the DM as non-lethal damage as described any attack that can't kill a character can be treated as non-lethal damage then a weapon like a rapier can do non-lethal damage attaking a limb (DM Discretion)


Oh, I see, you're once again running into the issue that the same words can have different meaning.  "Non-lethal damage" has a specific definition in the game as "damage" that accumilates until it is higher then the character's hitpoints at which time things happen.  "Non-lethal" damage does NOT get subtracted from a character's hitpoints but is removed faster and has a special interaction with healing magics.  This is completely different from non-lethal damage as defined by any damage you take that doesn't kill you;  that type of damage is normal damage but the results when subtracted from a character's hitpoints happen to be non-fatal.

If I stab you with a rapier I'm most likely doing normal, or LETHAL, damage although it may not be enough to actually kill you.  If I wanted to use the rapier in a non-standard way I could take a -4 penalty on my attack to deal non-lethal damage.  What I see you saying is that if a character has say 19 hitpoints any damage you take below that will be non-lethal because it doesn't kill you; that is right from certain point of view but when it comes to game mechanic that does NOT mean you took "non-lethal" damage.  A character with 19 hitpoints can takes 20 points of non-lethal damage he goes down but his hitpoints remain at 19.

Of course this discussion on non-lethal damage has NOTHING to do with the actual topic.  Non-lethal damage has nothing to do with equipmet and I am very hard pressed to think of anything where energy damage types produce non-lethal damage.
Then if you have all your body but only a arm out of the pool of acid this can count as total immersion.

So what defines "total immersion" if jumping/falling into a pool of acid doesn't do it but leaving an arm sticking out may?  How much of a body needs to be under for total immersion?
 

not because if that character and are in -9 that attack can kill him, but if that character are in -9 and you hit her broken foot this can don't count this come because a non-lethal damage with a weapon that do letal damage can be apply if you do the attack to a non-lethar part of the body of if you use a part of the weapon that dont is lethal.

Unther the rule full all your BODY but i was saying that you as DM can say that the limbs don't count.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Sorry Oma, the ring is takes 10d6 damage in the case of total immersion. A Flask of Acid can be used as a thrown splash weapon, but it can also be used in other ways.

If I filled a small Metal pot, hardness 5, HP 10 with the acid from the flask, it would do 1d6 damage per round to the pot until it leaked out. (apr 20 minutes)

So what we have here is a Flask of acid that deals 1d6 damage per round, or 10d6 on total immersion, that if used as a thrown splash weapon will do 1d6 damage that apparently counts as a round of exposure (ie is done instantly)

QED
The head is a limb
Sorry Oma, the ring is takes 10d6 damage in the case of total immersion. A Flask of Acid can be used as a thrown splash weapon, but it can also be used in other ways.

If I filled a small Metal pot, hardness 5, HP 10 with the acid from the flask, it would do 1d6 damage per round to the pot until it leaked out. (apr 20 minutes)

So what we have here is a Flask of acid that deals 1d6 damage per round, or 10d6 on total immersion, that if used as a thrown splash weapon will do 1d6 damage that apparently counts as a round of exposure (ie is done instantly)

QED

Sorry but if you don't use the Acid Flask as a weapon this use the rules of the Acid effect then if you put the Stone in the flask this will be destroyed in the next turn.

but if you use it as a weapon this same Acid Flask fellow the rules of the TSW.

And a head is a Main Body unless you can't take critical hits.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, and how does that function any differently. You are saying I am wrong but then saying it functions exactly as I described.

It's a Flask of acid that does 1d6 damage per round, or 10d6 on total immersion, that if used as a spelash weapon will do 1d6 damage instantly (being hit counts as a round of damage, ie instant Acid damage) 


And the Rules of TSW is the rules on hitting with a thrown splash weapon, the material inside does damage according to the type. ie alchemists fire does fire damage, etc, that is what DAMAGE TYPE is. TSW is not a damage type, the same as Exotic 2-handed weapons is not a damage type.  



Nop are 2 different rule sets.


And i was quote that rules
as described if you using a STW it deal only 1d6 of damage of the Energy Type that it cointain ina DIRECT HIT or 1 Damage if Splashing.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
It splashes the target in a dirrect hit for 1d6 acid, it splashes those adjacent for 1 point.

It's a thrown SPLASH weapon. There is no different ruleset a splash weapon works by  breaking "on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects" straight out of the rules compendium.

It's not a new rule either it is the exact same rule as before. And I laughed at you before when you went out of your way to quote the entire rule but snipped out this first damning part that contradicted you. I know you want it to be blunt force trauma from the flask breaking, but sadly that doesn't do any real damage at all.
 
In short it works by splashing it's target with acid.  

And no matter how you selectively quote on half sentences from the rules, we have these books and can read the entire entry.  
It splashes the target in a dirrect hit for 1d6 acid, it splashes those adjacent for 1 point.

It's a thrown SPLASH weapon. There is no different ruleset a splash weapon works by  breaking "on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects" straight out of the rules compendium.

It's not a new rule either it is the exact same rule as before. And I laughed at you before when you went out of your way to quote the entire rule but snipped out this first damning part that contradicted you. I know you want it to be blunt force trauma from the flask breaking, but sadly that doesn't do any real damage at all.
 
In short it works by splashing it's target with acid.  

And no matter how you selectively quote on half sentences from the rules, we have these books and can read the entire entry.  

Again if you use it as a weapon this fall under one rule set and if you dont use as a weapon and someone interacts with it then use other rule set.

splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target as well as nearby creatures or objects. Most splash weapons consist of liquids, such as acid or holy water, in breakable vials.

MAKING A THROW


To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target.


Thrown weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you never take a –4 nonproficiency
penalty.


A hit deals direct hit damage to the target and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of
that target.


You can instead target a specific grid intersection, unless that intersection is part of a Large or larger creature’s space in that case, you’re aiming at the creature.


If you can aim at the chosen grid intersection, make a ranged attack against AC 5. Creatures in all squares adjacent to the grid intersection are dealt the splash damage if you hit. Direct hit damage isn’t dealt to any creature.


Items


Acid: You can throw a flask of acid as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A direct hit deals 1d6 points of acid damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the acid hits takes 1 point of acid damage from the splash.

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
The Damage type is still Acid Damage Oma, you are arguing the rules on how it hits the target, but the end result is the flask breaks, splashes the target for 1d6 acid damage.

You are just dancing around the rules to obfuscate an irrelevant point. Using it as a weapon does not change it's DAMAGE TYPE.

Thrown, used as a club, opened and poured over you in your sleep. It deals 1d6 Acid Damage and that is all that is relevant     
The Damage type is still Acid Damage Oma, you are arguing the rules on how it hits the target, but the end result is the flask breaks, splashes the target for 1d6 acid damage.

You are just dancing around the rules to obfuscate an irrelevant point. Using it as a weapon does not change it's DAMAGE TYPE.

Thrown, used as a club, opened and poured over you in your sleep. It deals 1d6 Acid Damage and that is all that is relevant     

yes at the same that a damage can be Bludgeoning this type of damage is Acid??? and what???

what have the damage type with the rule set to apply the damage??? then all Bludgeoning damage are applying in the same way or slashing or pircing??? then if you use Ice Storm you need roll an attack for the Piercing damage or if yuu do a hold in a grapple you need make and attack to deal the bludgeoning damage??

the Acid effect not is about the Damage Type is about how do the damage and in what situation.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
what have the damage type with the rule set to apply the damage???



The ruleset you keep refering to is how to use a Ranged Attack, or rather a Thrown Splash Weapon, which in turn does a Damage Type. Acid Damage is an Energy Type, specifically Energy: Acid. This means Energy resistance:Acid will stop a flask of Acid from doing damage.

You can keep dancing in circles to obfuscate this point, but it is acid damage, how it hits the target isn't relevant. The Longbow shot's arrows as a Ranged Attack, that doesn't change how arrows inflict Piercing Damage. Nor Does a Dagger used as a Ranged Thrown Weapon change how it's damage is dealt.

It deals damage in the form of an Acid Effect, which falls under the rules of Acid effects.

1d6 Acid Effect, done instantly. You keep dancing around disagreeing with this, while saying this is how it works.


Oma, Yes or No?

Does an Acid Flask do 1d6 Acid Damage instantly?
what have the damage type with the rule set to apply the damage???



The ruleset you keep refering to is how to use a Ranged Attack, or rather a Thrown Splash Weapon, which in turn does a Damage Type. Acid Damage is an Energy Type, specifically Energy: Acid. This means Energy resistance:Acid will stop a flask of Acid from doing damage.

You can keep dancing in circles to obfuscate this point, but it is acid damage, how it hits the target isn't relevant. The Longbow shot's arrows as a Ranged Attack, that doesn't change how arrows inflict Piercing Damage. Nor Does a Dagger used as a Ranged Thrown Weapon change how it's damage is dealt.

It deals damage in the form of an Acid Effect, which falls under the rules of Acid effects.

1d6 Acid Effect, done instantly. You keep dancing around disagreeing with this, while saying this is how it works.


Oma, Yes or No?

Does an Acid Flask do 1d6 Acid Damage instantly?

ok what say the rule set of weapon about the Rapier???

the rapier deal 1d6 of piercing damage

What say the rule set of Weapon about the Acid

A acid flask deal 1d6 of acid damage

An Acid attack deal damage like any other weapon Instantly as described in the rule Set.

An Acid effect come in play if someone don't is attacked with acid but interact with him, and as described the Acid Effect not are instant effect.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
so you are saying it is an instant effect, but it isn't an instant effect? That is rather conlficting, confusing  

You are dancing in circles trying to obfuscate the fact that Acid Damage is an Acid Effect.

Walk up to your pit of acid, the one that does 10d6 damage with fill a flask.

You now have a flask of acid.

Flask of acid does 1d6 Acid Damage. What type of damage? You know to over come DR and resistances etc?

Damage Type, Energy: Acid, It's as simple as that.

Page 48 of the rules Compendium under

Energy

Some effects use or create energy, dealing damage according o the type of energy used. Energy comes in five types: acid, cold, electricity, fire and sonic. The types of energy help to determine whether certain creatures are more resistant or more vulnerable to the attack that uses that energy


It's important to note that it is an Energy effect because that determines that it is affected by things like Acid Immunity, Energy Resistance or Acid Vulnerability. A physical attack such as Piercing damage can't be resisted, it is covered with Damage Reduction.

Dance around and try to obfuscate it all you want, but it is Acid, the same acid in your pit and it follows these rules. The Flask is an Acid Effect

That this is an acid effect that deals the damage instantly, it proves that an instant of exposure counts as a round of exposure, and therefore the damage is dealt instantly, up front at the start of the effect (or upon initial exposure)
The language in the DMG was meant to show exactly that, "it counts as a round of exposure" means it is dealt instantly as an attack. Just as a Dragon's breath weapon is dealt instantly.

The language in the DMG was meant to show how much damage is dealt, not when it occurs during a round (which is arbitrary and variable).
And this works well in the game, If I am bull rushed on the enemies turn and pushed into a vat of acid, I take Acid damage, I cast teleport as a swift action on my turn and am out of the acid.

I've only been in the acid for 1 second, but it counts as a round.

And that's the point, it doesn't matter if I've been in the acid for an entire round, if I was in half the round, if I was only in for a brief moment, it counts as a round and I take the 10d6 damage.

You take the initial damage, and if you're still in the acid when the enemy's turn comes around again, you take the next dose of damage since that's when it was triggered.  The amount of time you actually spent in the acid is irrelevant in this case, since it's not applying on your turn.

Note that the idea of spreading out that damage is only really valid for effects that trigger on the character's turn, since otherwise they're being dealt damage that doesn't relate to their own actions in any way (so it can't spread across their actions).  If the acid effectively has its own turn before/after everyone in the initiative, or if an enemy starts the acid damage by pushing you in on their own turn, there's no connection to the victim's actions.
When any length of exposure deals the same damage, even an instant exposure, then the only consistant way is to deal the damage at the start of exposure, and the beginning of the round (since you  may not be in the acid the entire round)

If you're dealt the same damage regardless of the exposure time, it makes no difference when you decide to apply it during the turn.

The consistent way to apply the damage is at the start of the exposure and at the exact same time 1 round later, since the damage is dealt per-round.
To which the Effects rule takes place. Acid deals damage per round, meaning exposure to acid deals 1 round of the acid effect, so the initial Acid Effect ends just before the beginning of the next round on the same Initiative.

That's true for acid effects that last for a certain number of rounds, but not for an acid pit.  Pits of acid don't have a specific duration.
You've taken the initial damage and won't take any more for that round. At the start of the next round you are subject to the acid damage again.

Well, one round later anyway.  It's unlikely to be at the start of a turn unless you mean an entire round if you fell in the acid before entering initiative (in which case the acid effectively has its own turn at the start/end of each round of initiative), since it probably wasn't triggered at the start of a round.
-If you take damage at the start of exposure (when you fall in) on the first round, you should take damage at the start of exposure on subsequent rounds

True, but later rounds of exposure only start at the beginning of your own turn in the initiative if that's when the effect triggered in the first place.
-The Concentration Check rule would require damage to be rolled at the start of the round in order to determine the DC for checks during that round.

Since it's always based on the last amount of damage dealt, there's absolutely no requirement that it be rolled at the start of the round.  You will always have taken some previous damage if you're suffering continuous damage, and if you haven't come to the right point to deal that damage again, all it means is that the damage from the previous roll is still being used.
And the final round of an effect in the concentration rules also indicates that such damage would be resolved at the start of a round.

Again, it's based on whether or not the last damage dealt was the last amount that could be dealt, but whether or not that occurred in your own current turn is irrelevant.  If it was applied on an enemy's turn, it works just as well using the damage that was rolled then.
-Flash Effect deals same damage as half a round of exposure and the same as prolonged exposure for an entire round, so the only consistant time to roll damage is at the start of exposure and at the start of a round of exposure.

That's mostly true (except during your own turn, when the possibility exists for it to be spread out), but the start of a round of exposure is rarely going to coincide with the start of your own turn in the initiative.  If initial exposure occurs outside of your turn in the initiative, then each subsequent round of exposure also starts outside of your turn.
Nowhere does it say under the rukles that the number of rounds an effect lasts has to be pre-determined. In this case it lasts a number of rounds until you are removed from the effect. Leaving the acid would make that the final round.

"Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."

The number of rounds has to be certain in order for it to be classified as ending just before the same initiative count.  There is no way to tell with any kind of certainty when you will escape a pit of acid (unlike a spell with a predetermined duration).  This is also true when  determining whether or not the last damage dealt is the last damage the effect could deal.

In both cases, you cannot predetermine the end of the effect (you could always end up spending longer in the acid than you thought); the only way to know is to successfully escape, so any damage dealt before that point does not last a number of rounds that is known with certainty, and cannot be determined to be the last amount of damage that the effect could deal.

Effects that don't run out on their own work as if they will continue forever, because they might do just that.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
The language in the DMG was meant to show exactly that, "it counts as a round of exposure" means it is dealt instantly as an attack. Just as a Dragon's breath weapon is dealt instantly.

The language in the DMG was meant to show how much damage is dealt, not when it occurs during a round (which is arbitrary and variable).



When Hit with a Acid Sword or Flask of Acid the damage is dealt instantly, upon exposure. The "counts as a round" was meant simply to indicate this so that Instant Acid Effects from weapons, Breath Weapons, Spells it instant effects would not be confused.

Brief Exposure (being dipped into the acid only half a round or less) and Instant exposure Counts as a round of exposure. 


You take the initial damage, and if you're still in the acid when the enemy's turn comes around again, you take the next dose of damage since that's when it was triggered.  The amount of time you actually spent in the acid is irrelevant in this case, since it's not applying on your turn.



That is exactly what I stated.  Damage is taken once per round while in the acid, emmediately upon exposure. So instant damage when you initially fall in and then again at the start of each round in the same initiative.


It works the same no matter what turn you fall into the acid, so long as you take the damage at the start of the same turn next round.  

Note that the idea of spreading out that damage is only really valid for effects that trigger on the character's turn, since otherwise they're being dealt damage that doesn't relate to their own actions in any way (so it can't spread across their actions). 



The rules should be consistant, no matter what turn it is dealt on. Many things will change the state of the target between turns. Another person's actions could rescue the character, the character in the acid could be Readying an Action.

The Rule needs to work the same in each and every case.


If the acid effectively has its own turn before/after everyone in the initiative, or if an enemy starts the acid damage by pushing you in on their own turn, there's no connection to the victim's actions.

Consistancy and other actions, such as Ready an Action. Pits of acid aren't the only case, so consistancy is the rules is important. They always function the same way.

Also in the case of a trap, that a person walks into before initiative was rolled, it is retroactive. Initiative should have started when they were in range of interacting with the trap with the players as Unaware. So initiative shoudl be applied retroactively. It is pretty obvious that the player who walked into a trap did so on his own turn.


  If you're dealt the same damage regardless of the exposure time, it makes no difference when you decide to apply it during the turn.



Yes it does, because it effects your subsequent actions. If the acid kills you then you aren't going to be able to get out of the pool and walk about. If the damage is the saem, regardless of the time of exposure, then you need to front load it for that reason.

"the orc swings his greataxe, knocking your head right off your shoulders, ok you are dead, so what are you going to do?"
"well, first I am going to go pick up my head and put it in a bag, then I am going to find a spot to lay down so I am out of everyone's way, don't supose I can get an attack off first?"

Also being in the acid doesn't stop the enemy from attacking you in some way, like shooting arrows, etc. So it needs to be resolved in a consistant way. With an unknown duration the only consistant way is to deal it at the start of a round on the same initiative it began"     

That's true for acid effects that last for a certain number of rounds, but not for an acid pit.  Pits of acid don't have a specific duration.



Being exposed to acid deals 1 round of damage, it's a misdenomer  to suggest that it isn't a fixed duration and therefore doesn't fall under the Effect rules.

If you fall into acid you take damage for 1 round, that round ends just before the beginning of the subsequent round.  That is a fixed duration of 1 round. On the next round, if you are still in the acid, then you take 1 round of damage (also a fixed duration)

While being in the acid is not a fixed duration, the resulting effect (damage) is a fixed 1-round duration.

Also if you wish to argue that there is no duration, then that makes the acid an instant effect under every situation, You will note that it doesn't say "acid deals damage as a full round action" I don't mean to argue this, but you are saying it one full round duration, while saying it doesn't have a duration.

Well, one round later anyway.  It's unlikely to be at the start of a turn unless you mean an entire round if you fell in the acid before entering initiative (in which case the acid effectively has its own turn at the start/end of each round of initiative), since it probably wasn't triggered at the start of a round.



Again, initiative should be retroactively applied, Objects don't get initiative. The DM should start initiative with the player falling into the trap as being the first turn of the first round.

That is why you only get 1 action in a suprise round, because you are halfway through a turn ussually. ie Walk into a room (move action) and see some goblins, suprise round occurs and you take your remaining action for that round.

Character  walks into an acid trap (move action) and triggers it, roll initiative and complete the second half of that turn. This is a suprise round as the players who's initiative were before his are treated as unaware. Now normally I wouldn't use initiative for something like this outside of combat, i would simply give all the other characters in his party a turn before his in no particular order since they can delay their turn anyways, and this amounts to the same thing (everyone gets a turn in between each of your turns) Initiative is only needed if there is an anemy present.

Either way, having the Damage occur (outside of initiative) is a nonsensical arguement, it should be tied to the action/turn that triggered it.  ie you walked into it, it's your action/turn

True, but later rounds of exposure only start at the beginning of your own turn in the initiative if that's when the effect triggered in the first place.

We both agree on this, as I am talking of a trap I am simply assuming that the victem was the one who triggered it.
 
 
Since it's always based on the last amount of damage dealt, there's absolutely no requirement that it be rolled at the start of the round.  You will always have taken some previous damage if you're suffering continuous damage, and if you haven't come to the right point to deal that damage again, all it means is that the damage from the previous roll is still being used.



I will strongly disagree, all effects/results of the previous round are finished at the end of that round. You also have the damage from one round effecting 2 complete rounds, and that is patently absurd. This is no different then saying, well you got hit by a sword on the previous turn, so you need to make a concentration check.

You only make a concentration check for damage that occurs on the same round you cast the spell on. The rules are clear on this too.

Again, it's based on whether or not the last damage dealt was the last amount that could be dealt, but whether or not that occurred in your own current turn is irrelevant.  If it was applied on an enemy's turn, it works just as well using the damage that was rolled then.


Again, the rules must be consistant, it works the same regardless of who's turn it is done on. If it is the enemy's turn what if I counterspell him? No I am casting a spell halfway through his turn, so when the damage is resolved on his turn is important. The same goes if he wants to target a spell on me, he needs to determine the result of the damage on me if it will effect the spell he is casting.

ie Magic Missile won't target a dead person, so the enemy should be given a chance to hit a different target if I am already dead.


That's mostly true (except during your own turn, when the possibility exists for it to be spread out), but the start of a round of exposure is rarely going to coincide with the start of your own turn in the initiative.  If initial exposure occurs outside of your turn in the initiative, then each subsequent round of exposure also starts outside of your turn.



It still must be resolved the same way each and every time, regardless of who's turn it occurs on because it can effect the actions of others, if the character is a legitimate target of spells, if the character has readied an action, etc as mentioned above. The rule needs to be consistant.
 
 
"Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."

The number of rounds has to be certain in order for it to be classified as ending just before the same initiative count.  There is no way to tell with any kind of certainty when you will escape a pit of acid (unlike a spell with a predetermined duration).  This is also true when  determining whether or not the last damage dealt is the last damage the effect could deal.



Spells and other effects can be ended prematurely too, They can be dispelled, overwritten, Cured, supressed in antimagic fields or in some cases voluntarily removed on will.

There are to points of certainty, one that exposure to acid deals damage per round, which is 1 round of effect if the target is in the acid. That would end just before the begining of the next round. At the beginning of the new round you would determine if they were still in the acid, if they are, you would do the process again, just as you would if this was the first time they fell into the acid.

It doesn't require a duration beyond "exposure does a round of damage" If you are exposed to acid then you take damage from that acid for that round. If you are exposed again on the next round you will take damage just like you did the round before. Regardless of when you are exposed in the following round. You could start in the acid, or you could fall back into the acid.

All that needs to be determined is the end of the round in which you were exposed.

You aren't taking damage because of an effect, you are taking damage because you are in the acid at the beginning of a round. It's a new round so falling into the acid is the same as starting in the acid.

-My turn I leap into the acid, take 10d6 damage and then climb out, My next turn I leap into the acid and take 10d6 damage and then climb out.

-My turn I fall into the acid, take 10d6 damage and fail my swim check, My next turn I am still in the acid so I take 10d6 damage.

-The orc bullrushes me into the acid, I take 10d6 damage, on my turn I fail my swim check and stay in, on the orc's next turn I am in the acid I take 10d6 damage

-The orc bullrushes me into the acid, I take 10d6 damage, on my turn I make my swim check and climb out, on the orc's next turn he bull rushes me into the acid again, I take 10d6 damage

It is a new round, so any time that I am exposed to the acid, for whatever reason, at whatever time, I will take damage from that exposure upon being exposed.
  
In both cases, you cannot predetermine the end of the effect (you could always end up spending longer in the acid than you thought)

All the matters is when the effect begins, that is when you take the damage, just as when you fall into the acid. The fact that you can't pre-determine how long you will be in the acid just furthers the need to take the damage up front.

The Start of exposure is the only thing that isn't a variable. Initial exposure and the beginning of a round are the only 2 times where it is not a variable. So applying damage at those times is the only way to be consistant.

so you are saying it is an instant effect, but it isn't an instant effect? That is rather conlficting, confusing  

You are dancing in circles trying to obfuscate the fact that Acid Damage is an Acid Effect.

Walk up to your pit of acid, the one that does 10d6 damage with fill a flask.

You now have a flask of acid.

Flask of acid does 1d6 Acid Damage. What type of damage? You know to over come DR and resistances etc?

Damage Type, Energy: Acid, It's as simple as that.

Page 48 of the rules Compendium under

Energy

Some effects use or create energy, dealing damage according o the type of energy used. Energy comes in five types: acid, cold, electricity, fire and sonic. The types of energy help to determine whether certain creatures are more resistant or more vulnerable to the attack that uses that energy


It's important to note that it is an Energy effect because that determines that it is affected by things like Acid Immunity, Energy Resistance or Acid Vulnerability. A physical attack such as Piercing damage can't be resisted, it is covered with Damage Reduction.

Dance around and try to obfuscate it all you want, but it is Acid, the same acid in your pit and it follows these rules. The Flask is an Acid Effect

That this is an acid effect that deals the damage instantly, it proves that an instant of exposure counts as a round of exposure, and therefore the damage is dealt instantly, up front at the start of the effect (or upon initial exposure)

Again one attack have her own rule set but the exposure come in play when you don't are attaked.

again what have to do the damage type with this????

this about when the damage are doing no matter if are fire damage, Bludgeoning damage or acid damage.

Then under the rules if some one attack you with acid you take the damage like if someone attack you with a sword but the type of the damage is Acid and under the rule if you are exposed to the acid you take damage per round and if the amount of acid is significant in relation to your size you need make a Fortitude save again poison.

a fine creature around to an open acid flask need make a Fortitude save and if he try to put her hand in the acid he take 1d6 per round but if he only put her hand and immediately get it out the fine creature dont take any damage but in otherwise if a fine creature are attaked for an acid flask she take 1d6 damages but don't make a fortitude save again poison.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Again Oma, you are saying "it isn't an Acid effect, but it is an acid effect"

It is Acid, it does Acid Damage, all the appropriate effects of acid apply, including immunity and Energy Resistance and Invulnerability. A Tiny object in a Flask would be 10d6 Damage.

I am pointing out that these effects "count as a round of exposure" meaning nothing more then they do the damage instantly!

There are no new rules, no "different set of rules" Acid Imunity, Resistance and Vulnerability works the same on a flask of acid as it does a pool of acid, the damage is handled in the exact same way.
Again Oma, you are saying "it isn't an Acid effect, but it is an acid effect"

It is Acid, it does Acid Damage, all the appropriate effects of acid apply, including immunity and Energy Resistance and Invulnerability. A Tiny object in a Flask would be 10d6 Damage.

I am pointing out that these effects "count as a round of exposure" meaning nothing more then they do the damage instantly!

There are no new rules, no "different set of rules" Acid Imunity, Resistance and Vulnerability works the same on a flask of acid as it does a pool of acid, the damage is handled in the exact same way.

Sorry again the rule set of attacks and exposure are no longer the same.

As described the acid deal 1d6 of damage in her weapon entry.

Again if you have DR 50/ piercing no matter if you fail a reflex save, if you are beaten , if you fall from too high or if you are grappled, you take less damage of all kinds of non-piercing damage

The same way no matter how you take acid damage if you are immunity you dont take the damage.

Again the type of the damage dont have to do with the rule set to how apply the damage.

Under the rule if you use a flask of acid again a fine creature that creature don't need make a fortitude save again poison.

Under the rules if a Fine  creature put her hand in an acid flask she don't take damage until a round of exposure.

As example some one can play with a firestone because unless you hold it you don't take instand damage but if someone use it as a weapon it deal fire damage.

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Sorry again the rule set of attacks and exposure are no longer the same.

As described the acid deal 1d6 of damage in her weapon entry.



Acually, as described an Acid (flask) deals 1d6 Acid Damage, the damage is an Acid Effect

Again if you have DR 50/ piercing no matter if you fail a reflex save, if you are beaten , if you fall from too high or if you are grappled, you take less damage of all kinds of non-piercing damage

The same way no matter how you take acid damage if you are immunity you dont take the damage.



You need to read up on the difference between Damage Reduction and Energy Resistance. Clearly you don't understand if we are talking of Energy Damage and you are talking about Damage Reduction, and clearly you do not understand Damage Reduction from your above sentenct

Again the type of the damage dont have to do with the rule set to how apply the damage.



uhhhhhh. it has EVERYTHING to do with how you apply the damage. You realize that if I toss an Acid Flask as someone with DR 50/piercing that they will take full damage from the acid? You realise that DR doesn't stop Energy Damage, Spells and Supernatural abilities

You have demonstrated just how completely out of touch you are with the rules of the game here.
When Hit with a Acid Sword or Flask of Acid the damage is dealt instantly, upon exposure. The "counts as a round" was meant simply to indicate this so that Instant Acid Effects from weapons, Breath Weapons, Spells it instant effects would not be confused.

That would be largely useless, since those effects for weapons, breath weapons, spells, and so forth have absolutely no need to refer to the DMG's section on environmental acid effects.  All it would do is confuse the issue of whether or not you can take damage from them more than once per round.
Note that the idea of spreading out that damage is only really valid for effects that trigger on the character's turn, since otherwise they're being dealt damage that doesn't relate to their own actions in any way (so it can't spread across their actions). 

The rules should be consistant, no matter what turn it is dealt on. Many things will change the state of the target between turns. Another person's actions could rescue the character, the character in the acid could be Readying an Action.

The Rule needs to work the same in each and every case.
No, they don't.  It's entirely consistent for the rules to behave differently to accomodate different circumstances.  Even in the acid effects section, you've got a different amount of damage dealt by different levels of exposure, and a poisonous fumes effect that only applies when large bodies of acid are present.

It's true that other effects could apply during other turns, and you could certainly make the argument for also spreading the damage out a bit on those turns if the acid was dealt during that turn and if it makes any difference to the victim.


Consistancy and other actions, such as Ready an Action. Pits of acid aren't the only case, so consistancy is the rules is important. They always function the same way.

Consistency is important, but it means that the result should be consistent with the effect, not that all effects should be treated as identical.

Also in the case of a trap, that a person walks into before initiative was rolled, it is retroactive. Initiative should have started when they were in range of interacting with the trap with the players as Unaware. So initiative shoudl be applied retroactively. It is pretty obvious that the player who walked into a trap did so on his own turn.

Outside of an initiative order, turns have no meaning and everyone acts at the same time (mechanically), so the player walking into the trap was also doing so on everyone else's turn.

If you want to treat the initiative as having started (which doesn't happen if everyone is unaware) then you'd have to give the trap an initiative anyway, and since it's obvious that it acts before everyone else and doesn't have a sound method for rolling initiative simply putting it at the start or end of the initiative order fits nicely with the actual effect (either the start of initiative before everyone else, or at the end after everyone else; the result is the same).

Conveniently, it also sidesteps any problems with the application time for that kind of case since the damage is entirely applied during a "turn" when no-one can do anything anyway.
Yes it does, because it effects your subsequent actions. If the acid kills you then you aren't going to be able to get out of the pool and walk about. If the damage is the saem, regardless of the time of exposure, then you need to front load it for that reason.

No, because you could just as easily claim that as the reason to apply it later on, since they would have the opportunity to take actions while being burnt by the acid.
Also being in the acid doesn't stop the enemy from attacking you in some way, like shooting arrows, etc. So it needs to be resolved in a consistant way. With an unknown duration the only consistant way is to deal it at the start of a round on the same initiative it began"

As above, you can just as easily apply it later and it's just as consistent.  In fact, it's less consistent to apply damage if you don't know how long you've been the victim of it, since applying it at the start of a turn forces you to be retroactive if you need to adjust for the circumstances.
Being exposed to acid deals 1 round of damage, it's a misdenomer  to suggest that it isn't a fixed duration and therefore doesn't fall under the Effect rules.

If you fall into acid you take damage for 1 round, that round ends just before the beginning of the subsequent round.  That is a fixed duration of 1 round. On the next round, if you are still in the acid, then you take 1 round of damage (also a fixed duration)

While being in the acid is not a fixed duration, the resulting effect (damage) is a fixed 1-round duration.

The section on effects refers to the duration of the effect, not how often it deals damage (which is similar for any kind of ongoing effect).

If you were to try treating it as an effect with a 1 round duration, you'd never need to make a Concentration check against it, since it would always have dealt the last round of damage.  Since that same damage-once-per-round argument also applies to any effect that lasts multiple rounds, you'd never have to make checks to resist continuous damage.

The pit of acid is an ongoing effect with an nonspecific duration that can last multiple rounds (you're exposed to acid for multiple continuous rounds).  Trying to split its damage into convenient 1-round blocks so that you can claim it has a fixed duration is disingenuous.
Also if you wish to argue that there is no duration, then that makes the acid an instant effect under every situation, You will note that it doesn't say "acid deals damage as a full round action" I don't mean to argue this, but you are saying it one full round duration, while saying it doesn't have a duration.

It has a duration, just not one that lasts a certain number of rounds; the number of rounds which it will last is uncertain (unlike typical spell effects which automatically run out at a certain point).
Again, initiative should be retroactively applied, Objects don't get initiative. The DM should start initiative with the player falling into the trap as being the first turn of the first round.

How can it be initiative if no-one is ready to act?  Initiative doesn't begin until someone can take actions (since it's pointless otherwise).

It makes much more sense in this case to place the trap's effect in the initiative order at the beginning or end (even if it can't roll initiative).  The effect applies at the correct time relative to everyone's actions, and the victim gets the appropriate 1 round of time to respond to the unexpected exposure before suffering the second round of effect.

That is why you only get 1 action in a suprise round, because you are halfway through a turn ussually. ie Walk into a room (move action) and see some goblins, suprise round occurs and you take your remaining action for that round.

By that logic, the goblins would get a full round of actions during the surprise round since they haven't acted yet and thus have all their actions available.

Except that in that case, you wouldn't get to act in the surprise round at all, since you were one of the creatures surprised, and if the goblins weren't expecting you, there is no surprise round.  Both situations that make no sense if the argument for taking a single action in the surprise round is that you're halfway through a turn.

Character  walks into an acid trap (move action) and triggers it, roll initiative and complete the second half of that turn. This is a suprise round as the players who's initiative were before his are treated as unaware. Now normally I wouldn't use initiative for something like this outside of combat, i would simply give all the other characters in his party a turn before his in no particular order since they can delay their turn anyways, and this amounts to the same thing (everyone gets a turn in between each of your turns) Initiative is only needed if there is an anemy present.

Either way, having the Damage occur (outside of initiative) is a nonsensical arguement, it should be tied to the action/turn that triggered it.  ie you walked into it, it's your action/turn

It can't be tied to an action in the initiative (including the victim's action), since initiative hadn't started at that point.

Functionally, even if you don't actually use initiative (though it's the best mechanic for it) your outcome should involve everyone getting a full round of actions before the second application of damage from the trap.  The victim isn't any different from his companions in this case, since he wasn't performing any more or less activity than they were; all of them were walking together simultaneously, without the mechanics of initiative forcing them to act one after another.
We both agree on this, as I am talking of a trap I am simply assuming that the victem was the one who triggered it.

The difference we have is on where the trap is placed in the initiative order based on that victim's triggering of it.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that it occurs at the start of the victim's turn, and giving it its own place in the initiative order is consistent with its behaviour relative to the actions of the victim and his companions.
 
I will strongly disagree, all effects/results of the previous round are finished at the end of that round. You also have the damage from one round effecting 2 complete rounds, and that is patently absurd. This is no different then saying, well you got hit by a sword on the previous turn, so you need to make a concentration check.

No, you have the effect that began on a particular turn crossing over another turn (since the effect only ends just before it gets back to its own starting turn).  It doesn't last for additional rounds, it just overlaps with multiple turns, which is consistent with the fact that the effect doesn't end until just before its own turn occurs again.
You only make a concentration check for damage that occurs on the same round you cast the spell on. The rules are clear on this too.

However, a round isn't the same thing as a turn.  You can take continuous damage for effects that started before your own turn and that end after your turn (just before they reach their own starting turn in the initiative order again), and it's still within the same round as far as that effect is concerned.

Again, the rules must be consistant, it works the same regardless of who's turn it is done on. If it is the enemy's turn what if I counterspell him? No I am casting a spell halfway through his turn, so when the damage is resolved on his turn is important. The same goes if he wants to target a spell on me, he needs to determine the result of the damage on me if it will effect the spell he is casting.

Of course he does, but that doesn't make any difference to determining whether or not the last damage that an effect dealt was the last damage it was capable of dealing.  It will be the last application of damage no matter when it occurs.

If the enemy initially strikes you with a continuous damage effect on your turn, by the time it gets back to your turn the only difference the exact timing makes is to which dose of damage you use for setting the Concentration DC.  If he initially hit you at a later point in your turn than your spellcasting, you'll simply be using the earlier dose rather than the later one.




It still must be resolved the same way each and every time, regardless of who's turn it occurs on because it can effect the actions of others, if the character is a legitimate target of spells, if the character has readied an action, etc as mentioned above. The rule needs to be consistant.

I agree that this is a reasonable argument for extending the potential distribution of the damage across the turn to other turns in which it might make a difference.
Spells and other effects can be ended prematurely too, They can be dispelled, overwritten, Cured, supressed in antimagic fields or in some cases voluntarily removed on will.

Indeed they can, but they also have a specific duration, and we're only concerned with when the effect with definitely end, since that's how we typically determine whether or not it's on the last round of its effect.  If someone has ended the effect through additional interference (dispelling a spell, teleporting someone out of an acid pit, and so on), we'll already know that the effect has dealt its last application of damage and that no further Concentration checks against it are necessary.
There are to points of certainty, one that exposure to acid deals damage per round, which is 1 round of effect if the target is in the acid. That would end just before the begining of the next round. At the beginning of the new round you would determine if they were still in the acid, if they are, you would do the process again, just as you would if this was the first time they fell into the acid.

It doesn't require a duration beyond "exposure does a round of damage" If you are exposed to acid then you take damage from that acid for that round. If you are exposed again on the next round you will take damage just like you did the round before. Regardless of when you are exposed in the following round. You could start in the acid, or you could fall back into the acid.

All that needs to be determined is the end of the round in which you were exposed.

You aren't taking damage because of an effect, you are taking damage because you are in the acid at the beginning of a round. It's a new round so falling into the acid is the same as starting in the acid.

-My turn I leap into the acid, take 10d6 damage and then climb out, My next turn I leap into the acid and take 10d6 damage and then climb out.

-My turn I fall into the acid, take 10d6 damage and fail my swim check, My next turn I am still in the acid so I take 10d6 damage.

-The orc bullrushes me into the acid, I take 10d6 damage, on my turn I fail my swim check and stay in, on the orc's next turn I am in the acid I take 10d6 damage

-The orc bullrushes me into the acid, I take 10d6 damage, on my turn I make my swim check and climb out, on the orc's next turn he bull rushes me into the acid again, I take 10d6 damage

It is a new round, so any time that I am exposed to the acid, for whatever reason, at whatever time, I will take damage from that exposure upon being exposed.

Yes,  the only real difference it makes is whether or not the damage is counted as continuous at all (and when it applies, in that case).  If you stay in the acid from one round into the next, it's continuous damage and applies whenever you were initially exposed.  If you climb out in the middle, it's not continuous damage (even if it ends up dealing the same amount) but likewise applies at the exposure time.
The Start of exposure is the only thing that isn't a variable. Initial exposure and the beginning of a round are the only 2 times where it is not a variable. So applying damage at those times is the only way to be consistant.

Applying damage at the beginning of a turn would be inconsistent if your initial exposure wasn't at the beginning of a turn.  Changing the exposure time is inconsistent; compare the two possibilities we're considering.


  • You take damage upon exposure, and 1 round later at the time of the exposure.

  • You take damage upon exposure, and at the start of the next turn.


In the former case, the damage always applies at the exposure time, which is a consistent way to apply damage once-per-round.  The latter involves applying damage at a point which will sometimes be one round later, but often will not; that's inconsistent, since it changes the timing of the damage application.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
You realise that DR doesn't stop Energy Damage, Spells and Supernatural abilities

You have demonstrated just how completely out of touch you are with the rules of the game here.

I'd give Oma the benefit of the doubt on that, and assume from context that "non-piercing" was meant as "bludgeoning or slashing" not something inclusive of all damage types, since none of the examples given applied energy damage against damage reduction (and applying damage reduction against other physical damage types even when they're not actually weapons is a common house rule).
A Tiny object in a Flask would be 10d6 Damage.

I prefer to skip pointing out that you suggested shoving a cat-sized object (Tiny) into a flask that typically contains no more than 1 pound of liquid (and probably less, since the flask weighs something too), but what I'm trying to say is that we should give the benefit of the doubt on potential errors in description.  For example, I'm assuming that you meant to say "Fine", rather than "Tiny".

We may disagree on points, but we don't have to be intolerant of the failings that we all have from time to time.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Thats the thing Slagger, I am pretty sure that in Oma-tongue he means to say that DR blocks a Flask of Acid, that is his key point, that it counts as Weapon Damage not Energy Damage. Which is pretty obvious as his intent when he states that damage type has nothing to do with how the damage is applied.

And yes I meant Fine, a Ring, the object I used, is a fine object, not Tiny, lol. The point being that a Fine object that could be immersed in a flask of Acid, it would deal 10d6 Damage per round the same as a medium object in a pit of acid. I also will point out that a tiny object, such as a small metal pot, if the flask was poured into it would take 1d6 damage/round until it melted through.

The point being that the Damage from an Acid Flask is an Acid Effect, and that "counts as a round of exposure" meant nothing more then the damage was instant. The point being that there are no "new rules" regarding Acid Effects or Thrown Splash Weapons.

That would be largely useless, since those effects for weapons, breath weapons, spells, and so forth have absolutely no need to refer to the DMG's section on environmental acid effects.  All it would do is confuse the issue of whether or not you can take damage from them more than once per round.



Which is why they took the statement out, it is a confusing way to say it is an instant effect. Obviously (or at least it should be) a Flask of Acid or Sword could strike different areas of the body, and that Spells, magic Swords and Breath Weapons are magical in nature, not mundane, and so can deal multiple damages.

Although a DM could be inclined to rule a limit of 10 Acid flasks hitting a target as being the point of saturation, that clearly they would be soaked from head to toe so this counts as full immersion. Even so I would be cautious about this because Full Immersion would apply Energy Resistance only once, whereas being hit seperately by 10 seperate flasks would be applied 10 times (Energy Resistance 5 would equal Energy Resistance 50)


No, they don't.  It's entirely consistent for the rules to behave differently to accomodate different circumstances.  Even in the acid effects section, you've got a different amount of damage dealt by different levels of exposure, and a poisonous fumes effect that only applies when large bodies of acid are present.
It's true that other effects could apply during other turns, and you could certainly make the argument for also spreading the damage out a bit on those turns if the acid was dealt during that turn and if it makes any difference to the victim.



You could spread the damage out, but this would be a house rule as there is no ruleset in the game for doing this, certainly not for doing some of the damage each turn. It also confuses the issue of Energy Resistance, so if I decide it is more realistic to deal damage out 2d6 per turn, rather then 10d6 a round, then there is the chance that Resistance could be applied to each of these seperately, as well as bypassing the Massive Damage rule.

And again, it doesn't take a Full-Round of exposure to deal the damage either. Being in the acid for only a Move Action of time is the same as being in the acid for an Full Round, so you can't be consistant in spreading out 10d6 Damage over an indeterminate length of time. 

There is no rule for half or partial damage from being immersed, so there is no way to spread it out when you don't know how long they will be exposed for, and you can't divide the damage with an unknown variable.

Consistency is important, but it means that the result should be consistent with the effect, not that all effects should be treated as identical



The identicle effect should be treated as identicle however. There shouldn't be different rules for the same effect. The Damage should be applied the same regardless of who's turn it is taken on, or if the character falls into it during initiative or before initiative.

Starting a turn in Acid should be treated the same as being pushed into the acid. You are exposed to acid so you take Damage. 

If at any time during a round you are immersed in Acid, either by falling, being pushed in or by starting the round immersed, you take damage.

1- what part say that the damage of a acid flash is Acid Effect, the rule only say Acid Damage.

2- is the same, the point is that the kind of damage not have to do with the form of do it, the example is the Bludgeoning damage and all different forms to do it and at last both are damage only that one is a energy acid damage and the other are Bludgeoning damage.

3-sorry i never say that i was talking about the bludgeoning damage and all the forms to do that, i know that you can't use DR in energy damage as described in Energy damage and Damage reduction but as you can see bludgeoning damage have many rules at the same Acid damage have 2 rule sets as weapon and as non-weapon.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

ok if you are saying that a tiny creature take 10d6 of damage what happen if you use the Acid flask as a weapon again a tiny creature???? take 10d6 of damage???

as described in the rule set (TSW) if you use it as a weapon you deal only 1d6 of damage.

as described in the rule set (AE) if you don't use it as a weapon and in this case the fine creature jump into the acid flask she take 10d6 of damage.

is very easy.

and in this point i think 2 person are agree that a creature need a chance to do her turn in a pool of acid instead of take damage 2 times under the rules.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
1: Oma, I already explained it to you. It says under Acid (flask) that it deals 1d6 Acid Damage. Now read the rules for Damage Types, there is a whole page in RC about this. Damage Type: Energy: Acid, that is an Acid Effect.

Know what else also does Acid Damage? the spells, Acid Splash, Acid Fog, Acid Arrow etc, it's all Energy Damage


2: What does the Damage type have to do with this? look up Energy in the Rules Compendium and read the first paragraph on page 48, it covers the nature of energy damage. This is why an Acid flask would do full damage to a target with DR 50/piercing, but would do no damage to a target with Resist Energy:Acid 10

3: Acid Damage doesn't have a weapon rule, it's a Damage Type not a Weapon Type. I invite you to read Page 42 of your Rules Compendium:

Blungeoning is under, Damage Type: Weapons ("weapons and natural weapons")

Acid Damage is under, Damage Type: Energy ("Abilities and effects that employ one of the five energytypes deal energy damage, which can be acid, cold, elec-tricity, fire, or sonic") Acid Damage is not Weapon Damage

So when we talk of doing damage with a flask of acid, we are talking about an Acid Effect.

 On the second Comment:

A fine creature immersed in Acid  would take 10d6 Damage. Like a medium creature, it doesn't matter that it is a pit, pond, lake, river, Ocean or a dimension of acid, it only matters that they are immersed.

So a fine object like a ring put in a flask of acid would be dealt 10d6 damagedue to being fully immersed in acid.


If you threw an Acid flask at a fine creature? There is a size adjustment to AC for a reason, an acid flask will splater it's contents over a square and the adjacent squares so in relation to their size the creature will be hit for the same amount fo damage, 1d6.Any adjustment to damage is done with the Size modifier to difficulty to hit.

Note that the entire contents aren't dumped on a medium creature either as much of it splatters in the surrounding squares. The same with a fine creature as the square it is on and the surreounding squares are hit with the splatter.

The point is that if you are saying that a creature swiming a pool of acid in a single turn can't take only 1d6 of damage but you are saying that a fine creature don't take more that 1d6 of damage from a acid flask the you are contradicting yourself because you are saying that both are the same rules then if the rule set from an acid flask is the same that the one from the acid pool why you are saying that if a creature swiming a acid pool take more that 1d6 but a tiny creature damaged for an acid flask only take 1d6????

Then if the tiny creature swim she only take 1d6 ???

here exist 2 rule sets one as weapon and other as non-weapon and both do acid damage, like the examples of the bludgeoning damges.

Again Exist many rule sets to do the same kind of damage.

The rule for the Acid Flask is that deal 1d6 only if you use it as a WEAPON.
The rule for the same Acid Flask as a non-Weapon (exposure) work like Acid Effect dealing damage per round.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
you are saying that both are the same rules then if the rule set from an acid flask is the same that the one from the acid pool why you are saying that if a creature swiming a acid pool take more that 1d6 but a tiny creature damaged for an acid flask only take 1d6????



What are the rules Oma? Did it say A Medium creature in 10,000 litres of Acid? or did it say simply "in the case of total immersion"


-Take an empty flask, walk up to your pit of 10d6 Acid and fill the flask with it.
-You now have an Acid (flask) that deals 1d6 Acid Damage.
-Now take a Ring (fine Object) and drop it in that flask.
- It is now Totally Immersed, just the same as if you dropped it in the pit of acid. 
- In the case of total immersion it takes 10d6 damage.

-Take the flask and pour it into a metal pot. It is exposed to the acid, but it is not immersed in the acid, so it takes 1d6 Damage per round.   

-Throw a flask of acid at a Fine sized creature. It has a size modifier to AC to avoid being hit or taking damage. The flask smashes and splatters over both the creature and the surrounding squares. Sure the creature takes the brunt of the damage, but the acid is also splashed over 225 square feet (15 by 15)  so it is hardly a case of total immersion, 
    
The rule for the Acid Flask is that deal 1d6 only if you use it as a WEAPON.
The rule for the same Acid Flask as a non-Weapon (exposure) work like Acid Effect dealing damage per round.




A Flask of Acid is just Acid (the same as your pit trap) in a flask. It can be used as a thrown splash weapon, but it doesn't have to be, nor is it meant to be a weapong which is why it isn't listed in the Weapons section.
  
The flask of acid will do 1d6 to the target regardless of the way you apply it (except in the case of full immersion which would only apply to Fine objects) In the case of throwing it, the flask breaks and splashes it's contents over 225 Square feet, it only deals a single round of acid damage in an instant and then is effectively neutralized from being scattered so wide. That is, it counts as a round of exposure.

however if I exposed  an object dirrectly to it, such as pouring it in a pot, it would do 1d6 damage per round, since it isn't scattered to the wind over 225 square feet.

then why you are calling for 50% immersion or 75% immersion for more damage if a fine creature only take 1d6 of damage from an acid flask that is almost the same and unther your point of view is the same rule the attack and the acid effect then why in the case of the swiming person you call for more that 1d6 of damage and for the fine you only call for 1d6 of damage only, and a swiming not is full immersion
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, because an object the size of a ring inside a glass of water is totally immersed the same as a person in your pit of acid.

I suggested 50% and 74% immersion because the game lacked rules for volume of acid vs creature size. There is an obvious difference between acid dripping from a cave roof (1d6) and wading waist deep (50%) through a river of acid and being totally immersed swimming across a lake of acid. It would be a reasonable ruling for a DM over a rule that the book doesn't cover.

Swimming shoudl count as full immersion, because the body core, the torso, is fully immersed, also the normal method of swimming requires you to get your head wet. treading slowly with head out of the water would further reduce your movement. Noone Doggy paddles in the Olympics.
Oma, because an object the size of a ring inside a glass of water is totally immersed the same as a person in your pit of acid.

I suggested 50% and 74% immersion because the game lacked rules for volume of acid vs creature size. There is an obvious difference between acid dripping from a cave roof (1d6) and wading waist deep (50%) through a river of acid and being totally immersed swimming across a lake of acid. It would be a reasonable ruling for a DM over a rule that the book doesn't cover.

Swimming shoudl count as full immersion, because the body core, the torso, is fully immersed, also the normal method of swimming requires you to get your head wet. treading slowly with head out of the water would further reduce your movement. Noone Doggy paddles in the Olympics.

1- under your logic a fine creature splashed with 1 acid flask will count as a full immersion because for an instant the full body of the fine crearture was in full immersion and then that fine creature need take 10d6 instead of 1d6

2-Swimming not is full immersion because your back never are in full immersion (in a standard swim)
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
1- That is something a DM would have to determine depending on context of his game. Myself I would do 1d6 damage and recomend this based on the acid flask shattering and splashing it's content over a 255 square foot area, the creature doesn't necisarily get immersed even if the flask is incidentally larger then him. but under circumstances a DM could rule otherwise.

2-Oma, perhaps you have never swam before, but there is no way of swimming at any reasonable speed without getting wet, the doggy paddle is probabbly the driest way of swimming but the speed is atrocious, No only the gulible are going to go for that
The point being that the Damage from an Acid Flask is an Acid Effect, and that "counts as a round of exposure" meant nothing more then the damage was instant. The point being that there are no "new rules" regarding Acid Effects or Thrown Splash Weapons.

The DMG section on Acid Effects never says anything about the timing being instant or otherwise.  It notes the amount of damage you take per round, the fact that you can have poisonous fumes from large amounts of acid, and nothing more of any relevance.
Which is why they took the statement out, it is a confusing way to say it is an instant effect. Obviously (or at least it should be) a Flask of Acid or Sword could strike different areas of the body, and that Spells, magic Swords and Breath Weapons are magical in nature, not mundane, and so can deal multiple damages.

They took the statement out because it makes no sense in a section covering environmental acid (since neither of their examples were typical products of the environment).


You could spread the damage out, but this would be a house rule as there is no ruleset in the game for doing this, certainly not for doing some of the damage each turn. It also confuses the issue of Energy Resistance, so if I decide it is more realistic to deal damage out 2d6 per turn, rather then 10d6 a round, then there is the chance that Resistance could be applied to each of these seperately, as well as bypassing the Massive Damage rule.

Applying the damage at the start of a turn is also a houserule, since it's not stated anywhere that damage always applies at the start of the round.
And again, it doesn't take a Full-Round of exposure to deal the damage either. Being in the acid for only a Move Action of time is the same as being in the acid for an Full Round, so you can't be consistant in spreading out 10d6 Damage over an indeterminate length of time.

Yes and no.  Initial exposure takes no particular time, but receiving the second dose of continuous exposure requires that you spend an entire round exposed.
There is no rule for half or partial damage from being immersed, so there is no way to spread it out when you don't know how long they will be exposed for, and you can't divide the damage with an unknown variable.

You'd be dividing full damage.  There's nothing wrong with rolling the full damage, applying resistance to it, and still spreading it out across the round.  The only reason to turn to the Concentration skill in this case is that it's practically the only thing giving as any hint at when the damage applies during a round (other than "one round later than last time").
The identicle effect should be treated as identicle however. There shouldn't be different rules for the same effect. The Damage should be applied the same regardless of who's turn it is taken on, or if the character falls into it during initiative or before initiative.

And of course there isn't a real difference when the situations are identical.  But we've been constantly comparing non-identical situations.

Starting a turn in Acid should be treated the same as being pushed into the acid. You are exposed to acid so you take Damage.

And you do.  You take damage on initial exposure, and you take further damage one round later.

If at any time during a round you are immersed in Acid, either by falling, being pushed in or by starting the round immersed, you take damage.

Starting your turn immersed wouldn't necessarily count if you've already taken damage that round, since the standard to which you adhere is "once per round".

If a foe pushes you in, you take damage on their turn, and one round later on their next turn.  You don't take it one your own turn since you've already suffered the effect of one round of exposure to acid.  When talking about exposure to generic environmental acid as described in the DMG (unlike flasks of acid, or acid-using spells) there is no greater exposure than total immersion that can occur during a round.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
The DMG section on Acid Effects never says anything about the timing being instant or otherwise.  It notes the amount of damage you take per round, the fact that you can have poisonous fumes from large amounts of acid, and nothing more of any relevance.



It also doesn't say "damage per full round of exposure" so in the absence of any detail to the contrary it should be taken into effect instantly, and treated like any other effect in the game. And the fact that other acid exposure, mundane and magical alike, do instant damage on contact should also be a good indication.

 
They took the statement out because it makes no sense in a section covering environmental acid (since neither of their examples were typical products of the environment).



Actually the rules compendium doesn't list it under environmental hazards, it is under Energy and makes specific reference to damage from attacks and spells. 

Applying the damage at the start of a turn is also a houserule, since it's not stated anywhere that damage always applies at the start of the round.


Then applying the damage at all could be called a house rule, that is being silly. Since there is no way to predict when the person will get out of the acid during their turn the only point of consistancy is the start of of the round. Those are the only two points that will be consistant, the start of exposure and the beginning of a round,

Yes and no.  Initial exposure takes no particular time, but receiving the second dose of continuous exposure requires that you spend an entire round exposed.



There are two seperate mistakes in that assumption.
 
1: The Rules say "per round" not "after a Full Round" or "each round, as a Full-Round-Action (like casting a Full-Round spell)" or "at the end of each round" or "in the middle of your turn each round" So there is no language there that suggests an entire round of exposure. Only that it does it once per round.

"Per round" would be resolved at the start of each round, just as "per hit with a sword" would be resolved when hit by a sword, not at the end of that turn.


2: Rounds are measured from a start of a turn to just before the start of the next turn in the same initiative. Therefore the initial damage/exposure ends just before the next round begins, and that is the point in which "you've spent a round exposed"  and are now vulnerable for a second round of damage.

It doesn't say "entire round" or "exactly 6 seconds" it says "per round" and that is how per rounds are measured.  
You'd be dividing full damage.  There's nothing wrong with rolling the full damage, applying resistance to it, and still spreading it out across the round.


There is perhaps nothing wrong with doing this to a sword wound either, after all the person may be bleeding out to take that damage. But again this is a house rule. But again this is a house rule, and why can't disintigration work this way? And I can't think of a single other damage mechanic in D&D that works like this where you roll damage and then ignore it until later on.

The point is there is no such rule, it stats simple 10d6 damage, there is also no consistant way to spread this damage out, because there way to predict how it is spread out, since there is no way to predetermine when the character will get out of the acid.

So you get a case of a character taking the last damage long after he has left the acid, and you get the case of the character who is killed long after getting out of the acid, or you get the case of a character who takes only half the acid damage, none of these cases fit the Acid Damage rules.

The only reason to turn to the Concentration skill in this case is that it's practically the only thing giving as any hint at when the damage applies during a round (other than "one round later than last time").

Except the concentration rule confirms the damage is rolled at the start of a round, the person doesn't take the damage upon casting the spell, but is "considered" to have taken it for the Concentration DC.

So the rule confirms that full damage is rolled at the start of a turn

The Concentration rule has a second part , that states on the last round of the damage, spells can be cast without being effected by the damage, this confirms again that the damage is rolled and taken at the start of that round, since if it was taken at the end it would still effect the Concentration checks.


So to sum it up thus far.

-Only consistant duration in the acid is at initial exposure and the beginning of a round.

-Damage is rolled at the start of a round (concentration roll for half damage confirms this)

-Damage is taken at the start of a round (last round doesn't effect concentration as above)

And of course there isn't a real difference when the situations are identical.  But we've been constantly comparing non-identical situations.



Falling/being pushed into a pit of acid, I can't see how that can be non-identicle. I am saying it works the same if you fall in, if you are pushed in on someone elses turn, if you fall in during initiative, if you fall in before initiative. If you start a turn in Acid or if you are pushed or fall into the acid during your turn. All the matters is you are exposed that round to acid, you take damage

And you do.  You take damage on initial exposure, and you take further damage one round later.



One round later is the beginning of the next turn in the same initiative. If you begin a round in acid then that is initial exposure for that round.  

Starting your turn immersed wouldn't necessarily count if you've already taken damage that round, since the standard to which you adhere is "once per round". If a foe pushes you in, you take damage on their turn, and one round later on their next turn.



How many times do I have to state to you that I am refering to the same turn in which the initial effect occured? Since we were talking about walking into a trap I've simply assumed the same turn for sake of simplicity. 

  I'm saying you take it on your turn simply because I am assuming you walked into the trap on your own turn, if you were pushed in on someone else's turn then you would apply it to that turn instead. I've specified enough times in this thread that it reoccurs in the same initiative order. 

you are wrong:

ENERGY (RC pag 48)
Some effects use or create energy, dealing damage according to the type of energy used. Energy comes in five types: acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic. The types of energy help to determine whether certain creatures are more resistant or more vulnerable to the attack that uses the energy.

-Now an attack is a effect???
you are calling for the damage section.

or you call the very last entry ??? then a acid pool don't deal damage because don't is used in an attack???? the attack are out this entry the energy can be used for an attack, not is the attack itself.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, attack and damage are two seperate things, which is why you roll dice differently for each. The Attack causes an Effect.   

Many spells require attack rolls for rays, ranged and melee touch attacks, etc and thus require a Ranged Touch Attack, Ray of Frost is Cold Energy Damage, but requires a Ranged Touch Attack. the spell, Flame Blade needs a Melee Touch Attack and does Fire Energy Damage. Shocking Grasp deals Electric Energy damage on a Melee Touch Attack. You also need to do a melee touch attack for cure light wounds and teleport and invisibility against unwilling targets, (it's assumed willing targets allow you to touch them)

You are confusing yourself because there is no such thing as Attack Damage. You attack to hit the target and then deal Damage Type accordingly, in this case you are attacking with an Energy Effect.

If You attacks a target with DR 5 and Energy Resistance:fire 5 with a +1 Fiery Longsword, +1d6 Fire Damage, you would roll 1d8+4 (the +1 longsword & +3 str modifier) vs the DR and +1d6 Seperately vs the Fire Resistance. The Fire on the Fiery Longsword is a Fire Energy Effect.

That is why you need to read the first heading on page 42 of the RC, Damage Types and the Energy Damage entry below and the first Heading on page 48 under Energy. The Damage from a Acid Flask is an Acid Effect.
Oma, attack and damage are two seperate things, which is why you roll dice differently for each. The Attack causes an Effect.   

Many spells require attack rolls for rays, ranged and melee touch attacks, etc and thus require a Ranged Touch Attack, Ray of Frost is Cold Energy Damage, but requires a Ranged Touch Attack. the spell, Flame Blade needs a Melee Touch Attack and does Fire Energy Damage. Shocking Grasp deals Electric Energy damage on a Melee Touch Attack. You also need to do a melee touch attack for cure light wounds and teleport and invisibility against unwilling targets, (it's assumed willing targets allow you to touch them)

You are confusing yourself because there is no such thing as Attack Damage. You attack to hit the target and then deal Damage Type accordingly, in this case you are attacking with an Energy Effect.

If You attacks a target with DR 5 and Energy Resistance:fire 5 with a +1 Fiery Longsword, +1d6 Fire Damage, you would roll 1d8+4 (the +1 longsword & +3 str modifier) vs the DR and +1d6 Seperately vs the Fire Resistance. The Fire on the Fiery Longsword is a Fire Energy Effect.

That is why you need to read the first heading on page 42 of the RC, Damage Types and the Energy Damage entry below and the first Heading on page 48 under Energy. The Damage from a Acid Flask is an Acid Effect.

Yes the effect not is the same that the attack.

If you use the Acid for an attack you need follow the rule set of the attack.

ACID Flask item is described as 1d6 acid damage as attack.
AcidBurst As described as Extra 1d6 acid damage in an attack.

If you use the Acid as a Affect the you follow the rules set of the Acid effect.

A person in a Pool of Acid take 1d6 or 10d6 per round of Exposure.


as example
If some one use Dry Ice to attack you thats would cause damage to you and an extra cold damage (maybe 1), but if you put the Dry Ice in your hand this don't deal damage again you until some seconds passed (a round) this is the same with the acid.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, again the rules don't say "damage per Full-Round of exposure" just damage per round.

And You have just said in essense that an attack "counts as a round of exposure"     
Oma, again the rules don't say "damage per Full-Round of exposure" just damage per round.

And You have just said in essense that an attack "counts as a round of exposure"     

i never read one attack entry that say "this Long Sword Deal 1d8 per Round of Exposure"

and you need to be agree that "a Round Of Exposure" can be interpreted as "you need a round of exposure to take damage"

and under the rules a round are 6 full seconds.

and under the logic of many elements don't deal damage instantly like the Dry Ice and the Fire, you know you can touch a hot pan without take damage if you only touch it for an instant, the same with the Dry Ice.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Sign In to post comments