How encompassing is Magic Weapon enhancement?

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There is a "problem" with splitting up the damage that total immersion would cause; it would make any kind of resistance that much more effective.

We got started on this whole "pool of acid" trip when someone asked "what happen if a creature are in the bottom of a pool of mundane acid??? all her magical item are destroyed???" way back on post #66.  Now even if I try to ignore much of what has been said for the last 200  posts if you now say that the 10d6 from total immersion gets split up into smaller damage portions that would make acid resistance and hardness all the more effective against it.  Against 5d6 damage equipment has a MUCH greater chance at survival when hardness gets factored in; at the same time Acid Resistance 10 would provide a lot more protection then it did as it should protect against each occurance.

Now I'm not completely against the idea that damage from a sorce like an acid pool couldn't be split up.  Were I doing it against total immersion I'd say half at the point of initial contact and then half again each time the character starts and ends his turn.



Now since I went back through things to find where this "acid pit" mess started  I'll just bring up the Repairing Magic Items topic again at the risk of this thread going crazy.  I'm not sure someone saw this in the section on Magic Item Basics in the SRD:

Repairing Magic Items


Some magic items take damage over the course of an adventure. It costs no more to repair a magic item with the Craft skill than it does to repair its nonmagical counterpart. The make whole spell also repairs a damaged—but not completely broken—magic item


 
Again Slagger, that language only applies to Concentration checks and "considered" to have taken half the damage is different then saying "The caster takes half the damage" The damage has been taken in full already, but is "considered", for purposes of concentration checks, to have taken half for the DC.

If anything that rule absolutely confirms that the damage was already taken in full.

As StevenO mentions, it would confuse many issues, such as DR and hardness, possibly resulting it it being removed several times.

for that to work there would have to be more complete rules outlining how all these things work. Which again indicates the damage is front loaded


You could aply it this way, and I have no real objection to it. But You need to still recognize this as a house rule as there is no RAW that covers it working this way.
   
On Original Topic.

The Acid pit would deal damage to the gear on each round, but like Fire effects, the DM would have to decide what items would or could be effected as some might be immune to the acid (potions and flasks of acid for example and other glassware)  He could also give a Reflex save to protect certain magic items if the player tries to protext it, such as holding a ring in his hands to protect it from acid exposure.

Then there is containers, most backpacks and the like are made to be water resistant, so the items inside should be safe until the container soaks through.


However, my stand here though is that the Acid trap as described here is too low a CR for what it does, and droppign level 8 characters into, therefore wouldn't recomend destroying their gear if they survived.
On Original Topic.

The Acid pit would deal damage to the gear on each round, but like Fire effects, the DM would have to decide what items would or could be effected as some might be immune to the acid (potions and flasks of acid for example and other glassware)  He could also give a Reflex save to protect certain magic items if the player tries to protext it, such as holding a ring in his hands to protect it from acid exposure.

Then there is containers, most backpacks and the like are made to be water resistant, so the items inside should be safe until the container soaks through.


However, my stand here though is that the Acid trap as described here is too low a CR for what it does, and droppign level 8 characters into, therefore wouldn't recomend destroying their gear if they survived.


Actually, the original topic was just whether or not a temporary enhancement (Greater Magic Weapon for example) would boost an items hitpoints and hardness.  The answer to that was basically YES from everyone.  Now I then speculated that the hp gained from the enhancement would be lost if the enhancment was lost just like hitpoints would be lost if a CON score dropped although someone wanted to say the enhancement only provided temporary hitpoints.  That started this "if I can deal a little damage to a item and then use Dispel Magic on it to repress its bonuses won't it fall apart?"  Eventually that "causing a little bit of damage to an item" morphed into a "pool of mundane acid for 10d6 damage" combined with some anti-magic effect to easily and effectively destroy all of a character's gear.  A lot of the junk since then has been about that pool of acid.
because pools of acid are more exciting then scuffing your magic shoes?


Again Slagger, that language only applies to Concentration checks and "considered" to have taken half the damage is different then saying "The caster takes half the damage" The damage has been taken in full already, but is "considered", for purposes of concentration checks, to have taken half for the DC.

If anything that rule absolutely confirms that the damage was already taken in full.

As StevenO mentions, it would confuse many issues, such as DR and hardness, possibly resulting it it being removed several times.

for that to work there would have to be more complete rules outlining how all these things work. Which again indicates the damage is front loaded

I will note again that it doesn't specifically indicate anything about the damage being front loaded, since that timing is an assumption you're making, not a stated part of the rules.  It's true that it's written specifically within the Concentration rules, but, as I said before, it's the closest we've got to anything that actually indicates the timing for the damage other than it being one round later which is not at the start of anyone's turn, unless the damage had been previously inflicted at the start of a turn (which is kind of difficult if they fell into the acid while using their own actions).

Equally, it doesn't indicate that the damage has been taken, merely that it has been dealt, and that fits very nicely with the defenses as well, since there's an explicit rules difference between the "damage dealt" and "damage taken".  It's entirely possible to "deal" damage, apply resistance to it (once), and spread it across the round in order to determine the damage "taken". I do think there are possible timing inconsistencies that could exist... with either case.
You could aply it this way, and I have no real objection to it. But You need to still recognize this as a house rule as there is no RAW that covers it working this way.

Equally, I have no real objection to you applying it at the start of a turn.  And equally, it has no RAW tha covers it working that way, and you need to recognize the houserule you're applying as well.

We're in territory here where we're attempting to demonstrate the appropriate functionality of the rules in areas where they're not explicitly described, so naturally we're taking a look at what works and how.

As for the original question, it depends on whether you treat the item's extra hit points like a Constitution bonus or temporary hit points, and there isn't an official answer on it of which I'm aware; both a potentially valid and functional ways to handle it (albeit with slightly difference consequences), but without much to say in direct support of either, it falls to examining which method seems to work better just as our discussion of continuous damage timing does.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Slagger, it my not be specified, but couldn't I make the same claim about any other form of damage, after all it takes time even with mortal wound for someone to bleed out, shouldn't being stabbed do half that damage later when enough blood is lost?

I will go out on a limb with corrosive acid that deals that level of damage, (we aren't talking 1d3-2 damage) and suggest that the reaction is pretty damn fast.

In general, because various things can modify the damage, Damage isn't rolled until it is applied.


Admitedly, the rules might be vague, but here is what we do know:   

1: The concentration check rule confirms that the damage has already been rolled at the start of the turn (because they can start their turn casting) Half damage would be determined by rolling the full damage and taking half tht result, so full damage is rolled at the start of the turn (even if it is taken later?)

2:Speaking of Concentration checks, during the last round of continuous damage, in which the caster takes damage, he isn't considered to have taken half damage during casting on that round. If this is his last round of damage then he takes the damage at the start of the turn and then continues his turn as normal.

The Final round of the effect indicates that the damage is front loaded. The Final Round of damage occurs at the start of the turn and then the person is uneffected afterwards, the caster taking continuous damage casts without a concentration check for "half the damage" on the final round.

If the damage was taken at the end of a turn, then the caster would still need to make a concentration check on the final round of damage.

3: We have also determined that a whole round of exposure is not required to deal the damage. The Flask of Acid for example, (1d6 Acid Damage) deals the acid damage right then and there and counts as a full round of exposure (1d6 damage)

If You only take the damage at the end of your turn (having been exposed for a round in acid) how is it that you take the same damage if you move out in the middle of your turn, and the same damage if you pulled yourself out at the start of your turn? 

If a full round of exposure isn't needed, (just being exposed that round) then it's inconsistant to roll the damage at the end of a turn rather then rolling when exposed.

And The Flalk works the same as the pool of acid, acid damage per round, this is the same for all damage that is dealth "per round" So claim for others that Acid flasks don't deal acid damage....

Acid Arrow, for example, deals initial damage right away. If you are a higher level then it also does additional damage per round of exposure, it then does the damage on the final round at the start of the turn.

Round 1- Acid arrow does instant damage on hitting

Round 2- Acid damags is taken but is applied at the Start? half at middle? End of turn?

Round 3- Damage idealt at the beginning and caster may act normal    .

Here we have the acid deal the damage instantly upon contact and instantly at the start of the final turn, why would it be any different in round 2? 
  
Slagger, it my not be specified, but couldn't I make the same claim about any other form of damage, after all it takes time even with mortal wound for someone to bleed out, shouldn't being stabbed do half that damage later when enough blood is lost?

The system just doesn't apply those wounds in a continuous fashion in the same way that it does for immersion in acid.
In general, because various things can modify the damage, Damage isn't rolled until it is applied.

The very difference between damage dealt and damage taken depends on the fact that you roll damage first, then apply factors that change it, and finally apply it to the target as the final step.  All you're potentially doing with continuous damage is slightly spreading out the exact application across a single turn in the initiative.
1: The concentration check rule confirms that the damage has already been rolled at the start of the turn (because they can start their turn casting) Half damage would be determined by rolling the full damage and taking half tht result, so full damage is rolled at the start of the turn (even if it is taken later?)

That's almost correct, with the exception that the continuous damage is not automatically rolled at the start of the turn.  If a character were first exposed during the middle of their turn, the damage will be rolled again at exactly that same time 1 round later.  A spellcaster could, for example, attempt one Concentration check against the DC set by damage that was rolled in the previous turn, then roll another against a different Concentration DC in the same turn if they attempted it after the continuous damage was rolled again.
2:Speaking of Concentration checks, during the last round of continuous damage, in which the caster takes damage, he isn't considered to have taken half damage during casting on that round. If this is his last round of damage then he takes the damage at the start of the turn and then continues his turn as normal.

The Final round of the effect indicates that the damage is front loaded. The Final Round of damage occurs at the start of the turn and then the person is uneffected afterwards, the caster taking continuous damage casts without a concentration check for "half the damage" on the final round.

If the damage was taken at the end of a turn, then the caster would still need to make a concentration check on the final round of damage.

That runs up against the problem of undetermined damage; when you're talking about actions to escape the effect, you don't know whether or not the damage is the last of that continuous until after you escape.

You could certainly tell the last round for something like Melf's acid arrow, which has a specific duration, but you have no idea whether or not it's the last round of effect for a pit of acid until after you get out, making it impossible to know the correct DC for the effect if you try to apply it at the start of the round (the pit is, in fact, potentially invalid for the cut off, since it still has the capacity to deal damage).
3: We have also determined that a whole round of exposure is not required to deal the damage. The Flask of Acid for example, (1d6 Acid Damage) deals the acid damage right then and there and counts as a full round of exposure (1d6 damage)

The flask isn't a continuous damage effect; it applies once and then does nothing.  The fact that a flask of acid incidentally deals the same amount of damage as passing contact with an entire pool of acid isn't proof that the two are equivalent.

You really need to compare one continuous effect to another, rather than to a noncontinous effect (though I can certainly see cases where it's potentially a problem).
If You only take the damage at the end of your turn (having been exposed for a round in acid) how is it that you take the same damage if you move out in the middle of your turn, and the same damage if you pulled yourself out at the start of your turn?

If a full round of exposure isn't needed, (just being exposed that round) then it's inconsistant to roll the damage at the end of a turn rather then rolling when exposed.

Explicitly rolling damage at the end of a turn is just as inconsistent as explicitly rolling it at the start of a turn.  The damage doesn't apply based on the start or end of turns, but on whether or not a round has passed since the last amount of damage was dealt.

Round 1- Acid arrow does instant damage on hitting

Round 2- Acid damags is taken but is applied at the Start? half at middle? End of turn?

The second application of damage applies exactly 1 round after it first struck, typically at the end of an action during the caster's turn (since they use an action to cast the spell).
Round 3- Damage idealt at the beginning and caster may act normal    .

The damage applies at exactly the same time as it did during round 2, on the caster's turn; if the target of the spell acts before that, they're still taking continuous damage.
Here we have the acid deal the damage instantly upon contact and instantly at the start of the final turn, why would it be any different in round 2?

It applies instantly when it first struck in round 1, and at that exact same time in rounds 2 and 3.

What I would ask you is why the damage dealt at the end of the spellcasting action performed by the caster in round 1 should suddenly shift to the start of the target's turn for round 2 or round 3.

However, having said all this (and I certainly maintain the correct application time for effects has no particular link to the start or end of any character's turn, regardless of whether you decide to try splitting up continuous damage), I was discussing the pit of acid with my group today and was given a suprisingly simply and sensible answer for how it should interact with the order of initiative.

The very simple and logical answer I was given was that after a character falls in the acid pit and initiative begins for encountering it, the correct time for the second application of damage would be directly at the end of the initiative order (after every character has had their turn) since that's precisely one round after the victim's first exposure.  The character takes damage for falling in, everyone gets their first turn, and then the acid damage applies again.

If fits perfectly with the time that the damage was applied and the time exactly 1 round later.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I will argue that rolling the damage at the start of the turn is the only consistant way of dealing it.

If you start your round in the acid, you will take damage that round, you will take the full damage 10d6 if you get out at the tart of the round, you will take the same damage if you get out in the middle of the round, you will take the same damage if you tay the entire round in the acid. The fact that you take identicle damage, regardless of indeterminate length of exposure, indicates the damaeg will be applied at the start of that exposure for the round.

The acid Flask is the perfect example really because it doesn't incidentally do the same damage as a full round of exposure, because it is literally the same acid as that in the 10d6 pit.

Acid deals 1d6 damage per round, being splashed with it, such as a flask of acid, deals 1 round of damage, the same as if you basked in it for a round. That pretty well confirms the acid damage is dealt instantly.

What I would ask you is why the damage dealt at the end of the spellcasting action performed by the caster in round 1 should suddenly shift to the start of the target's turn for round 2 or round 3.



contextually we were talking about traps, for simplicity I kept with that in my examples. however given an enemy caster it would work the same way. Even though the damage is done on the enemy caster's turn, the "half damage is concidered" to the concentration check of the target would still apply.
 
  
The second application of damage applies exactly 1 round after it first struck, typically at the end of an action during the caster's turn (since they use an action to cast the spell).



The damage, however is not done "after a round" or "for each full round" or "after exactly 1 round" it is simply done "per round"

After "exactly 1 round" is inconsistant with the final round of damage in continuous damage, which is taken at the start of the round and no longer effects the target at all, as specified in the Concentration rules. 

So we have several inconsistancies, first a short or instant exposure counts the same as a round of exposure, and second the final round of exposure ends at the start of that round, and thirdly ending the effect prematurely (ie climbing out at the start or middle of the turn) takes the same amount of damage.)

The only way that this is always consistant is to take the damage at the start of each turn.  
As for the original question, it depends on whether you treat the item's extra hit points like a Constitution bonus or temporary hit points, and there isn't an official answer on it of which I'm aware; both a potentially valid and functional ways to handle it (albeit with slightly difference consequences), but without much to say in direct support of either, it falls to examining which method seems to work better just as our discussion of continuous damage timing does.

That's actually the secondary question and it went round and round in some of the earlier posts.  I know the question is not DIRECTLY answered anywhere but if a magical enhancment only provided temporary hitpoints then there would be no way to repair them.  That would mean that "Repairing Magic Items" section I quoted/linked a few posts back would be pretty meaningless if you could only restore hitpoints to the base item.

Although it may not be directly stated the rules make far more sense if you treat an enhancement bonus and its affect on an item's hitpoints like you'd treat a CON boost.  Enhancment goes up then hitpoints go up; if for some reason the enhancment goes down then so do the hitpoint by what the enhancment provided. 

The acid Flask is the perfect example really because it doesn't incidentally do the same damage as a full round of exposure, because it is literally the same acid as that in the 10d6 pit.

Acid deals 1d6 damage per round, being splashed with it, such as a flask of acid, deals 1 round of damage, the same as if you basked in it for a round. That pretty well confirms the acid damage is dealt instantly.

The acid flask deals 1d6 points of acid damage instantly because that's what its entry says, nothing more.  You can be hit by more and more acid flasks in a single round and you still take damage from every single one (and can far exceed even 10d6 damage if enough acid flasks are thrown), since it's the effect of a particular kind of attack, not the effect of generic exposure to acid.
After "exactly 1 round" is inconsistant with the final round of damage in continuous damage, which is taken at the start of the round and no longer effects the target at all, as specified in the Concentration rules.

Where does it state that the damage is taken at the start of the round?
I know the question is not DIRECTLY answered anywhere but if a magical enhancment only provided temporary hitpoints then there would be no way to repair them.  That would mean that "Repairing Magic Items" section I quoted/linked a few posts back would be pretty meaningless if you could only restore hitpoints to the base item.

Although it may not be directly stated the rules make far more sense if you treat an enhancement bonus and its affect on an item's hitpoints like you'd treat a CON boost.  Enhancment goes up then hitpoints go up; if for some reason the enhancment goes down then so do the hitpoint by what the enhancment provided.

We're not talking about them literally being the same though, but simply determining whether or not the enhancement hit points are lost first.  It doesn't have any reason to function like temporary hit points or Constitution boosts in any other respect.

It's mechanically tricky because on a practical in-game level the extra hit points from the enhancement are simply part of the sword and function more like additional hardness to the observer.  If you were using a magical sword, it isn't as though the physical sword would be completely unharmed until all its magical hit points were gone, nor would it be physically split in two but remain in place until those magical hit points ran out (technically, either is possible, just not very likely).  You'd be more likely to just see it being damaged more slowly than an equivalent nonmagical weapon, and when you repaired it, it would be exactly like repairing a normal sword.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Slagger, The entry in the DMG gives the example of a vial of acid counting as a round of exposure. The only difference between the DMG and the RC is they didn't include an example in the RC. This doesn't change the rule, it is just an ommited example.

Eitherway, the acid in a flask is just mundane acid, Acid does 1d6 damage per round, that is what a flask of acid is, a flask of acid that deals 1d6 damage per round. If you splash someone with it it will do a round's worth of damage to the target.

This means you are effected upon contact with acid. The Damage is dealt instantly on exposure. It's called consistant rules, if damage is dealt upon contact in one case, then it is dealt upon contact in all cases.

Acid Arrow for instance. It shoots a single arrow that does damage instantly. I can say instantly because at low levels it only deals the damage for the acid arrow and no additional damage per round. The Damage is instant contact. 

It does the damage per round  so it won't do any additional damage for the remainder of that round. Which ends just before the start of the next turn in the same initiative order. In the new round damage again is taken upon contact.

Where does it state that the damage is taken at the start of the round?

Where does it state that the damage is taken at the start of the round?


All effects end just before the start of the next turn in the same initiative. The next round of effect starts at the begining of the next turn. Damage per round is no different then any other continuous effect. On each round, that effect starts at the beginning of the turn and lasts until just before the beginning of the next turn.

Regardless of when the intitial effect started it is always beginning of turn until just before the beginning of the next turn thereafter.

In the case of a caster taking continuous damage, they have to roll a concentration check for half the damage they take from the continuous effect on that round, except for the last round of damage.

"If the last damage dealt was the last damage that the effect could deal then the damage is over, and it does not distract you."

The effect, Acid Damage, Starts at the beginning of the turn, the Caster takes damage and then can cast without a concentration check for the rest of the round.

That rule makes it clear that the damage from continuous effects takes place at the start of a turn, not the end of a turn, because you don't have to make concentration checks for damage taken on the previous round, only for the current round. 

And that is consistant with the damage being instant from the Flask (the same damage as a round of exposure) and is consistant with all other continuous effeects that take effect at the start of a round.   
Slagger, The entry in the DMG gives the example of a vial of acid counting as a round of exposure. The only difference between the DMG and the RC is they didn't include an example in the RC. This doesn't change the rule, it is just an ommited example.

The example in the DMG is a vial of acid not a flask (the vial actually contains a much smaller quantity of acid), and monster spittle is hugely variable in its damage.  They're actually horrible examples for what you're trying to demonstrate.
Eitherway, the acid in a flask is just mundane acid, Acid does 1d6 damage per round, that is what a flask of acid is, a flask of acid that deals 1d6 damage per round. If you splash someone with it it will do a round's worth of damage to the target.

Ankhegs and digesters use mundane acid, so why doesn't their acid deal 1d6 damage per round?  And if a mere vial deals 1d6 points of damage upon exposure, why doesn't an entire flask deal more?
This means you are effected upon contact with acid. The Damage is dealt instantly on exposure. It's called consistant rules, if damage is dealt upon contact in one case, then it is dealt upon contact in all cases.

We already agreed that you take initial damage upon initial contact.  As for everything after that, since you're in continuous contact with a pool of acid, you take continuous damage.

Instant damage is dealt at the instant of contact, continuous damage is dealt over the course of continuous contact.  In each case, the damage is dealt upon contact, it simply remains consistent with the type of contact.
Acid Arrow for instance. It shoots a single arrow that does damage instantly. I can say instantly because at low levels it only deals the damage for the acid arrow and no additional damage per round. The Damage is instant contact. 

It does the damage per round  so it won't do any additional damage for the remainder of that round. Which ends just before the start of the next turn in the same initiative order. In the new round damage again is taken upon contact.

That's true, but since the damage was initially dealt on the caster's turn, that round doesn't end until the exact same time during the caster's next turn.
All effects end just before the start of the next turn in the same initiative. The next round of effect starts at the begining of the next turn. Damage per round is no different then any other continuous effect. On each round, that effect starts at the beginning of the turn and lasts until just before the beginning of the next turn.

Where are you getting this idea that all effects end just before the start of the next turn in the same initiative?
That rule makes it clear that the damage from continuous effects takes place at the start of a turn, not the end of a turn, because you don't have to make concentration checks for damage taken on the previous round, only for the current round.

A round is not the same thing as a turn.  A round lasts six seconds, but does not specifically start or end at any point during a turn; it's simply a way to measure duration from whenever it started until whenever it stops, regardless of whether that lines up with the start of anyone's turn in the initiative order or not.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.

again the RC change the entry then this change the DMG point of view as Slagger_the_Chuul was saying and i was saying the rules of Acid flask is no longer an acid effect are a Throwing Splashing Waepon and work like that. again if you in a single turn take 1000000 acid flask of 1d6 each you don't take the Poison each work as a standard attack like a weapon with acid damage (ACIDIC BURST)

And again then is right if you take damage in 2 times you will apply the resistence 2 times but as ACIDIC EFFECT you dont start your first turn in the acid then you take 1d6 when you fall in the trap and then you take 10d6 acid damage at the start of your turn and if you in your turn want to swim a pool of acid if you dont start your turn and you can do it in a single turn you will only take 1d6 acid damage  for swim in the acid pool.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
again the RC change the entry then this change the DMG point of view as Slagger_the_Chuul was saying and i was saying the rules of Acid flask is no longer an acid effect are a Throwing Splashing Waepon and work like that. again if you in a single turn take 1000000 acid flask of 1d6 each you don't take the Poison each work as a standard attack like a weapon with acid damage (ACIDIC BURST)

I wouldn't say it's just because of the Rules Compendium not including examples, but the outcome is basically the same.

The entry on acid effects appears to be for the generic use of acid when there isn't a specific description, and (judging by the section in which it appears) is primarily aimed at handling acid as an environmental hazard.
And again then is right if you take damage in 2 times you will apply the resistence 2 times but as ACIDIC BURST you dont start your first turn in the acid then you take 1d6 when you fall in the trap and then you take 10d6 acid damage at the start of your turn and if you in your turn want to swim a pool of acid if you dont start your turn and you can do it in a single turn you will only take 1d6 acid damage  for swim in the acid pool.

I think it's at least plausible that you could be sufficiently immersed for the initial exposure to count as total immersion, but if you were deliberately swimming through within the space of a single round, you'd take just a single application 10d6 damage.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Slagger, a vial is smaller then a flask, yes, but the point here is that the instant exposure is the same as a full round of exposure. It is a flask of acid, and as described it will do 1d6 damage/round, You can literally scoop the acid from the 10d6 trap described here and have a flask of 1d6 acid. Therefore a flask of acid counts as a round of exposure.

Acid dealing lower amount of damage is simply diluted, or a supernatural ability and the DMG example never stated what damage a vial of acid did, simply that the instant effect counted as a round of exposure. It also states, "Such as", the vial is an example of many items that work the same way (a flask works the same way)

Oma, it is used as an example in the DMG, the RC not including example of aditional explanation doesn't erase it from the game. If the RC contained a new or different rule then maybe, however it doesn't. If you really want to exlude that, then does a flask of acid now do continual damage of 1d6 per round until neutralized? Will being hit with a flask of acid now cause a caster to make a concentration check for half the damage?

or does it count as a round and deal 1d6 instant damage? Because that is what it was saying in the DMG, that being hit with a flask of acid deals instant damage and not Damage per Round.

Acid deals damage "per round". However being hit with an acid effect, Flask of acid, Acid Arrow, Acid Sword etc, counts as a round and deals the damage instantly. If the RC overwrites this then all those effects now only deal the acid damage per round, it dramatically changes how those effects/items work.

All that the DMG was saying is that instant effects count as a round, meaning they do the damage instantly. Being hit by a Dragon's Acid breath weapon won't make you do a concentration check vs half damage, it counts as a round


Slagger:
That's true, but since the damage was initially dealt on the caster's turn, that round doesn't end until the exact same time during the caster's next turn.


I am sure we covered this, that I am refering to traps for simplicity sake since we are talking about falling onto an acid pit trap. Yes it applies to the turn it orringially started.

Where are you getting this idea that all effects end just before the start of the next turn in the same initiative?



From the rules: under Rounds and Turns: "it ussually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on. "

Just like if I move and then use Power Attack, It lasts until my next turn, meaning I get it for any AoO all the way until just before the begining of my next turn.

So the per round effect of being in acid starts at the beginning of a turn until just before the beginning of the next turn. The rules for Concentration checks with continuous damage make it clear that on the final round of the effect that the caster no longer has to roll a concentration check for half damage, that means the Continuous damage takes effect at the beginning of the turn and then the caster acts normally.

Again the damage taken at the beginning of the round is the only way to be consistant.

A round is not the same thing as a turn.  A round lasts six seconds, but does not specifically start or end at any point during a turn; it's simply a way to measure duration from whenever it started until whenever it stops, regardless of whether that lines up with the start of anyone's turn in the initiative order or not.



Rounds ussually means " a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.  "

So the rules certainly do indicate that each person's round begins at the start of their turn and ends just before the beginning of thier next turn. It certainly works that way for Casting spells, spell effects, and abilities like Power Attack, Ready Action etc etc Beginning of a turn until just before the beginning of the next turn (in the same initiative) is 1 round.


Movement through a pool of acid in this way would always be a limit of 10d6 Damage per round, regardless of how many spaces you swam through on the same turn.
Movement through a pool of acid in this way would always be a limit of 10d6 Damage per round, regardless of how many spaces you swam through on the same turn.

Sorry but a swim not is a Full immersion and you never start your turn in full immersion then you can't take the 10d6 only 1d6 for exposure.

And about of RC this books no longer mension the flask as a acid effect then under the new updated rules all examples of the flask as an acid effect are not longer able to use.

The Flask work as a weapon, not more as the Acid effect ,as was saying Slagger_the_Chuul work in other ways as example a standard rock deal 1d4 if are throwing but if you going to sid in a rock you dont take 1d4 or 10d4 of damage per round of exposure, this is the fact that you need stay one round exposure to take the damage of material like the lava or the acid.

The acid flash is only a weapon and like all other weapons deal damage as a weapon deal damage but this weapon deal energy damage instead of Piercing, Bludgeoning or Slashing damage.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, it would be entirely up to the DM to say if having a pinky toe sticking out still counted as total immersion or not, I am willing to bet that if you fell in you would go under, and that having your hair soacked in acid, most DMs would consider this immersed enough. I supose the top of your head might keep dry if you were very careful.

And even if it wasn't 10d6 damage, it certainly wouldn't be 1d6 either. So maybe you could argue that it was 9d6 worth, but not 1d6. Ow swimming in acid does the same damage as a splash. Don't think so. 

Again as for the RC book, if that is the case then it drastically changes how everythign with an acid effect works. "counts as a round" means literally that it deals the damage instantly, this is why being hit with acid effects, like a flask, a Acidic Sword or a Dragons Breath weapon are the the same as a round of exposure, it means it deals that damage instantly in those cases. 

Are you saying that these acid effects DON'T deal the damage instantly? 
   
The RC does not change how a flask of acid works, it does not change how an acidic sword works, it does not change how a Dragon's breath weapon works.

The Acid Flask is a weapon that deals ACID DAMAGE. 1d6 ACID DAMAGE, under Damage Types, look up ENERGY DAMAGE, and see ACID DAMAGE, and stop being daft
Oma, it would be entirely up to the DM to say if having a pinky toe sticking out still counted as total immersion or not, I am willing to bet that if you fell in you would go under, and that having your hair soacked in acid, most DMs would consider this immersed enough. I supose the top of your head might keep dry if you were very careful.

And even if it wasn't 10d6 damage, it certainly wouldn't be 1d6 either. So maybe you could argue that it was 9d6 worth, but not 1d6. Ow swimming in acid does the same damage as a splash. Don't think so. 

Again as for the RC book, if that is the case then it drastically changes how everythign with an acid effect works. "counts as a round" means literally that it deals the damage instantly, this is why being hit with acid effects, like a flask, a Acidic Sword or a Dragons Breath weapon are the the same as a round of exposure, it means it deals that damage instantly in those cases. 

Are you saying that these acid effects DON'T deal the damage instantly? 
   
The RC does not change how a flask of acid works, it does not change how an acidic sword works, it does not change how a Dragon's breath weapon works.

The Acid Flask is a weapon that deals ACID DAMAGE. 1d6 ACID DAMAGE, under Damage Types, look up ENERGY DAMAGE, and see ACID DAMAGE, and stop being daft

1- Swim in Acid is an exposure not a full immersion unless you was diving, then you only take 1d6 to cross a acid pool.

2- The RC don't change the Acid Flask as how work but change her Acid Effect Status now is only a Throwing Splashing Waepon

Acid Damage from Rule Compendium is a Energy Type of Damage the Acid Effect is other kind of Rule Set to work with acid when not is used as a weapon as example a pool of acid.

The New Rule is Clear the Acid flask and the Attacks with Acid Damage don't are under the rules of Acid effects.

as you can see the flask say that do acid damage, and in acid effect call for acid damage if you see what is acid damage are a Energy Type of Damage not are both do acid damage but use different sets of rules.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, no it doesn't change the damage to Throwing Splashing Weapon Damage, there is no such thing as that type of damage, Throwing Splash Weapons is not a damage type. And these rules are exactly the same as before, they haven't changed.

It is Acid Damage, a Throwing Splash Weapon that deals 1d6 Acid Damage. READ DAMAGE TYPES in the Rules Compendium and stop being daft.

The 10d6 Damage in a pool of Acid is under ENERGY TYPES in the RC, and it specifically refers to effects that do Energy Type damage in that section.

There are no new rules for Throwing Splash Weapons Oma.

What is clear is that many Acid effects do Instant Damage. Oh instant damage? But if acid does damage per round, isn't that the same as saying that the acid effect counts as a round of exposure? By golly yes that's exactly what it means.

Or are you saying that the damage from a flask isn't instant? Are you saying that a Dragon's breath weapon isn't instant? They both count as a round of exposure, that is, they are instant.    
Oma, no it doesn't change the damage to Throwing Splashing Weapon Damage, there is no such thing as that type of damage, Throwing Splash Weapons is not a damage type. And these rules are exactly the same as before, they haven't changed.

It is Acid Damage, a Throwing Splash Weapon that deals 1d6 Acid Damage. READ DAMAGE TYPES in the Rules Compendium and stop being daft.

The 10d6 Damage in a pool of Acid is under ENERGY TYPES in the RC, and it specifically refers to effects that do Energy Type damage in that section.

There are no new rules for Throwing Splash Weapons Oma.

What is clear is that many Acid effects do Instant Damage. Oh instant damage? But if acid does damage per round, isn't that the same as saying that the acid effect counts as a round of exposure? By golly yes that's exactly what it means.

Or are you saying that the damage from a flask isn't instant? Are you saying that a Dragon's breath weapon isn't instant? They both count as a round of exposure, that is, they are instant.    

ok you really don't understand you can take bludgeoning damage from a hammer, a pile of stone and a lot of thing but is only a kind of damage the rule set to do it can be different like make a hit with a punch, throwing a rock, make a grapple all work under her own rules but at last the type of damage is the same in this way the acid damage have Similar rules

yes rules for Throwing Splashing Weapon Exist in RC pag 143.

Yes acid effect do Acid damage like a Constrict do Bludgeoning Damage.

Yes the Damage of a Acid Flask are instant because work like a weapon described in TSW or as SD.

Yes Dragon Breath is Instead because is a Breath Weapon and work as described.

I was saying a pool of acid don't do Instand damage because under the description do damage per Round of Exposure
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
ah yes, 1d6 damage to swim across a pool of 10d6 Acid, because that doesn't count as full immersion? And a round swimming in it is the same as being splashed?

The forum rules expresssly forbid me from saying how stupid that is, so I will just say that it is wrong. The rules might not explain what amount of acid is needed for a round of exposure, so I will wager to guess that if a Flask of Acid deals 1d6 Acid damage, that it is refering to a relatively small quantity, such as a cave whith acid dripping from the roof, being spashed with acid, etc. While it might not be total immersion I am guessing it is alot more then 1d6 worth of immersion.

Now as a DM I would definately add in the "DC 13 Fortitude save or take 1 point of Constitution damage. All such characters must make a second save 1 minute later or take another 1d4 points of Constitution damage." and just to be a jerk, I would ask you if you've ever swam without getting water in your mouth? So I would raise the DC of the above by +20 under the Circumstance Modifier, and a +20 to the Swim DC as another Circumstance Modifier because this ain't water, rules for swimming is swimming in water and Acid doesn't have the same bouyancy.

Circumstance bonuses are all up to the DM, so thems the rules, Acid isn't calm water.
ah yes, 1d6 damage to swim across a pool of 10d6 Acid, because that doesn't count as full immersion? And a round swimming in it is the same as being splashed?

The forum rules expresssly forbid me from saying how stupid that is, so I will just say that it is wrong. The rules might not explain what amount of acid is needed for a round of exposure, so I will wager to guess that if a Flask of Acid deals 1d6 Acid damage, that it is refering to a relatively small quantity, such as a cave whith acid dripping from the roof, being spashed with acid, etc. While it might not be total immersion I am guessing it is alot more then 1d6 worth of immersion.

Now as a DM I would definately add in the "DC 13 Fortitude save or take 1 point of Constitution damage. All such characters must make a second save 1 minute later or take another 1d4 points of Constitution damage." and just to be a jerk, I would ask you if you've ever swam without getting water in your mouth? So I would raise the DC of the above by +20 under the Circumstance Modifier, and a +20 to the Swim DC as another Circumstance Modifier because this ain't water, rules for swimming is swimming in water and Acid doesn't have the same bouyancy.

Circumstance bonuses are all up to the DM, so thems the rules, Acid isn't calm water.

1 - Splashed deal only 1 damage
2 - Yes are doing in this line "Total immersion" this mean only total Immersion, not half immersion , not a splash ONLY TOTAL Immersion

3- Yes under D&D 3.5 swim in acid is like Swim in blood or water like an acidborn shark.

4-The DC to Swim a pool of acid is the same of do in water with the same modifying factors
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
1: Splashed with a flask worth deals 1d6 damage

2:Yes but what about 50% or 75% or 95% or just a Flask?

I am thinking a Flask is 1d6, Wading half way is 6d6, chest deep is 7d6, neck deep 9d6, total is 10d6.

3-Acidborn shark is 100% unneffected by the burning acid, therefore a Circumstance Penalty should be applied at the DM`s descretion to swimming in corrosive acid that deal mortal injuries as opposed to swimming in liquids that do little to no damage.

4: Nope, Circumstance bonus can be added at the Dm`s judgement. Swimming in a calm liquid that deals no damage is not the saem as swimming in 10d6 damage. It`s using a skill under extreme durress.

It`s one thing to be nice as a DM and when they fall in to let them claw desperately to shore with the normal DC, it is another if they try and swim across with only 1d6 damage. You are using a skill under extreme durress while taking mortal wounds, you think I would let you calmly  pick a lock while on the bottom of the acid pit? You are taking 10d6 damage per round a circumstance modifier is called for. 
  
 Now we're arguing about what "total immersion" means!  

So as long as I can keep some part of my body out of the acid I'm only going to be taking 1d6 damage?  If that is the case then why argue about this at all?  Wow, things are really out of control.
 
1: Splashed with a flask worth deals 1d6 damage

2:Yes but what about 50% or 75% or 95% or just a Flask?

I am thinking a Flask is 1d6, Wading half way is 6d6, chest deep is 7d6, neck deep 9d6, total is 10d6.

3-Acidborn shark is 100% unneffected by the burning acid, therefore a Circumstance Penalty should be applied at the DM`s descretion to swimming in corrosive acid that deal mortal injuries as opposed to swimming in liquids that do little to no damage.

4: Nope, Circumstance bonus can be added at the Dm`s judgement. Swimming in a calm liquid that deals no damage is not the saem as swimming in 10d6 damage. It`s using a skill under extreme durress.

It`s one thing to be nice as a DM and when they fall in to let them claw desperately to shore with the normal DC, it is another if they try and swim across with only 1d6 damage. You are using a skill under extreme durress while taking mortal wounds, you think I would let you calmly  pick a lock while on the bottom of the acid pit? You are taking 10d6 damage per round a circumstance modifier is called for. 
  

Sorry

1- A DIRECT Hit With a Throwing Splashing Weapon Deal 1d6 the Splash damage are only 1.

2- At 50% or 99% not are Full Immersion and under the rules you only take 1d6 of damage.

3- Sorry damage in Physical effort don't have penalties, the damage only disrupt mental abilities unless the DM say that Swim need Full Concentration.

4- Sorry Under the rules unless this is a Full Concentration Action he not need and if you want to take in this form this is not a extra DC is a Concentration Check and in this case you need add Concentration as base Skill of all warrior Classes because you are agree that the damage can disrupt her normal skills.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
2- At 50% or 99% not are Full Immersion and under the rules you only take 1d6 of damage.



So if you're swimming through acid, all you need to do is stick a finger out and you're safe?  The hell???
2- At 50% or 99% not are Full Immersion and under the rules you only take 1d6 of damage.



So if you're swimming through acid, all you need to do is stick a finger out and you're safe?  The hell???

That's my thought as well if I didn't convey that with my earlier post.  It seems rather odd that you could go "swimming" in a pool of acid safely with Acid Resitance 10 unless you decided to dive in/under for a moment at which time your Acid Resitance will be hit by 10d6 in potential damage.

 
2- At 50% or 99% not are Full Immersion and under the rules you only take 1d6 of damage.



So if you're swimming through acid, all you need to do is stick a finger out and you're safe?  The hell???

Under the literal rule yes.

But because the limbs are subject to Subdual damage maybe don't count to this lethal damage.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
2- At 50% or 99% not are Full Immersion and under the rules you only take 1d6 of damage.

So if you're swimming through acid, all you need to do is stick a finger out and you're safe?  The hell???

Under the literal rule yes.

But because the limbs are subject to Subdual damage maybe don't count to this lethal damage.


 

Where is that coming from?
 
2- At 50% or 99% not are Full Immersion and under the rules you only take 1d6 of damage.

So if you're swimming through acid, all you need to do is stick a finger out and you're safe?  The hell???

Under the literal rule yes.

But because the limbs are subject to Subdual damage maybe don't count to this lethal damage.


 

Where is that coming from?
 

in the description of how a piercing weapon can do subdual damage.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Under the literal rule yes.

But because the limbs are subject to Subdual damage maybe don't count to this lethal damage.

 

Where is that coming from?
 

in the description of how a piercing weapon can do subdual damage.


That is still no help what so ever.  

And when did piercing weapons ever come into this conversation much less non-lethal damage?  Subdual damage does not exist in 3.5 and where you may have seen it in previous editions it is now called non-lethal damage.

Is this just more deflection?
Otherwise known as pullign rules out of his 455

Exposure to acid does a base damage of 1d6, that is just exposure to an unspecified volume, and the flask of acid shows that the amount of acid exposure is realitively small to do that damage. There are no rules for different quantities of exposure but it is something a DM could easily scale himself. 50% in the acid could be considered 5d6 Damage, 25% could be considered 2d6 damage, 75% could be 8 d6 Damage, knocked into a puddle of acid on the ground might do 1d6 acid damage a round. It isn't rocket science for a DM to do this.

now acid that deals non-lethal damage, lol 

That goes with acid flasks don't do acid damage.
Slagger, a vial is smaller then a flask, yes, but the point here is that the instant exposure is the same as a full round of exposure. It is a flask of acid, and as described it will do 1d6 damage/round, You can literally scoop the acid from the 10d6 trap described here and have a flask of 1d6 acid. Therefore a flask of acid counts as a round of exposure.

Acid dealing lower amount of damage is simply diluted, or a supernatural ability and the DMG example never stated what damage a vial of acid did, simply that the instant effect counted as a round of exposure. It also states, "Such as", the vial is an example of many items that work the same way (a flask works the same way)

Wait, so on one hand, you're using the DMG's description of acid dealing 1d6 damage per round to say that the flask (which isn't described as an example) counts as exposure, but the vial (which is given as a specific example of exposure) doesn't deal the damage for exposure to acid?

Does the acid from the pit suddenly stop doing 1d6 points of damage from exposure if you put it in a vial?  If you can fill a flask with acid and have it deal 1d6 damage, why not fill a vial?  It still counts as exposure to acid, apparently deals the same damage, and it's lighter to carry around.
From the rules: under Rounds and Turns: "it ussually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on. "

Okay, I'll cop to that as the official ending point for specific duration effects.  Even if I didn't remember it, it's explicitly stated.

Unfortunately, the acid pit isn't an effect that lasts for a certain number of rounds.
So the per round effect of being in acid starts at the beginning of a turn until just before the beginning of the next turn.

No, even if being in a pit of acid was an effect that only lasted for a certain number of rounds, it would only mean that the end of the effect occurs just before a certain turn in the initiative, it doesn't necesssarily start there, nor does it deal its damage per round at the beginning of a turn.
The rules for Concentration checks with continuous damage make it clear that on the final round of the effect that the caster no longer has to roll a concentration check for half damage, that means the Continuous damage takes effect at the beginning of the turn and then the caster acts normally.

Again the damage taken at the beginning of the round is the only way to be consistant.

Unfortunately for the caster, a pit of acid doesn't have a final round; that applies to a spell like Melf's acid arrow that has a specific cutoff point, but not to a mundane pit of acid.

And even if you were to apply the cutoff point that applies to effects with a certain duration, that would mean it deals damage just before the beginning of the turn on which it started, which does not coincide with the beginning of any turn (it's the end of a turn, just before the beginning of another one), and has no special connection to the victim's turn at all.
Rounds ussually means " a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.  "

So the rules certainly do indicate that each person's round begins at the start of their turn and ends just before the beginning of thier next turn. It certainly works that way for Casting spells, spell effects, and abilities like Power Attack, Ready Action etc etc Beginning of a turn until just before the beginning of the next turn (in the same initiative) is 1 round.

That's wrong for most effects, since (assuming that they last for a certain number of rounds), they'll start somewhere in the middle of a character's turn; they almost never start at the beginning of the character's turn because no-one can activate them like that.

It's true that a person's round does begin and end as you've described, but it doesn't demonstrate that per-round damage from effects they create applies at the beginning of their own turn and it would be inconsistent with the fact that effects extending across multiple rounds end just before the start of the following turn (thus lasting for the entirety of their last round of effect and only ending at the last possible moment before the next turn begins).

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Wait, so on one hand, you're using the DMG's description of acid dealing 1d6 damage per round to say that the flask (which isn't described as an example) counts as exposure, but the vial (which is given as a specific example of exposure) doesn't deal the damage for exposure to acid?



Slagger, the DMG never stated what damage a vial of acid did, nor what damage the bile monster's bile does  "An attack with acid counts as a round of exposure."

"An attack with acid, such as from a hurled vial or a monster’s spittle, counts as a round of exposure."

And the damage that the acid does isn't my point. Only that an attack with acid, such as a hurled vial, a monster' spittle, an acidic Sword, a Dragons breath weapon, all counts as a round of damage, meaning it does it's damage instantly.

And that is exactly how those effects work, right? A flask of acid does the damage instantly, right?   

"counts as a round of exposure" is the same as "does damage instantly" 

And suddenly people are disagreeing with me that a flask of acid doesn't count as a round of exposure, but don't disagree that it's damage is done instantly???????? 
And that is exactly how those effects work, right? A flask of acid does the damage instantly, right?

A flask certainly does, but then there isn't any other time available; it doesn't apply its damage due to being a round of exposure to acid, but because it's a splash weapon that delivered its attack.   It doesn't count as a round of exposure because it doesn't need to touch on the DMG's acid effects section at all.
"counts as a round of exposure" is the same as "does damage instantly"

The flask doesn't apply its instant damage due to being a round of exposure to acid, so it doesn't demonstrate that the damage for a round of exposure is applied instantly.
AAnd suddenly people are disagreeing with me that a flask of acid doesn't count as a round of exposure, but don't disagree that it's damage is done instantly???????? 

Its damage is done instantly because it's a splash weapon and that's how splash weapons work (like most other weapons), which is why you can get hit with multiple flasks in a round and still take damage for each one.

If it was simply the regular result of a round's exposure to acid, you'd take 1d6 points of damage for the entire round, unless you were hit with enough flasks to fill the surrounding area and totally immerse you.

Remember that we're not talking about whether or not you take the initial damage straight away (at least I'm not), because obviously you do.  The question is when the subsequent applications of continuous damage are applied, since you're constantly in contact with that acid.  There is no specific point at which you can say you've only just made contact and should take the damage right now.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
The language in the DMG was meant to show exactly that, "it counts as a round of exposure" means it is dealt instantly as an attack. Just as a Dragon's breath weapon is dealt instantly.

-A Flask of Acid deals Acid Damage

-the Damage Type is Energy: Acid

-Energy: Some effects us or create energy, dealing damage according to the type of energy used. Energy comes in five types: acid, cold electricity, fire and sonic.

Acid Effects: Corrosive acid deals 1d6 points of damage per round of exposure

Now that is a little confusing, because most things that deal acid damage are instant effects, and we could say the same with Fire damage. Being Hit with an Acidic Sword for example, or the spell Acid Splash, and the DMG explained this by stating that an instant effect counts as a round of exposure, that is, it is dealt with instantly.

And this works well in the game, If I am bull rushed on the enemies turn and pushed into a vat of acid, I take Acid damage, I cast teleport as a swift action on my turn and am out of the acid.

I've only been in the acid for 1 second, but it counts as a round.

And that's the point, it doesn't matter if I've been in the acid for an entire round, if I was in half the round, if I was only in for a brief moment, it counts as a round and I take the 10d6 damage.

When any length of exposure deals the same damage, even an instant exposure, then the only consistant way is to deal the damage at the start of exposure, and the beginning of the round (since you  may not be in the acid the entire round)

Remember that we're not talking about whether or not you take the initial damage straight away (at least I'm not), because obviously you do.  The question is when the subsequent applications of continuous damage are applied, since you're constantly in contact with that acid.  There is no specific point at which you can say you've only just made contact and should take the damage right now.



To which the Effects rule takes place. Acid deals damage per round, meaning exposure to acid deals 1 round of the acid effect, so the initial Acid Effect ends just before the beginning of the next round on the same Initiative.

You've taken the initial damage and won't take any more for that round. At the start of the next round you are subject to the acid damage again.

Since, as you say, there is no rule to the contrary, then the effects rule should apply, exposure to acid equals 1-round of the acid effect. Can it be ended early? Yes, but then so can spell effects be cured, dispelled, saved against, ended at will or by some action. In this case the Acid Effect can be ended by moving away. Invisibility ends if you make an attack. While exposed to Acid you are under the acid effect and take damage per round in the same way as any other per round effect.

You can argue otherwise, but there is no other rules for that. In the absence of rules to the contrary anything else is at best a house rule.

-If you take damage at the start of exposure (when you fall in) on the first round, you should take damage at the start of exposure on subsequent rounds

-The Effect rule, as outlined, is the only rule in the system that deals with damage per round.

-The Concentration Check rule would require damage to be rolled at the start of the round in order to determine the DC for checks during that round. And the final round of an effect in the concentration rules also indicates that such damage would be resolved at the start of a round.

-Flash Effect deals same damage as half a round of exposure and the same as prolonged exposure for an entire round, so the only consistant time to roll damage is at the start of exposure and at the start of a round of exposure.
  
The damage to a limb can be considered for the DM as non-lethal damage as described any attack that can't kill a character can be treated as non-lethal damage then a weapon like a rapier can do non-lethal damage attaking a limb (DM Discretion)

Then if you have all your body but only a arm out of the pool of acid this can count as total immersion.

Again what have to do the breat of a dragon with the pool of acid????

Acid is only a kind of energy damage like Bludgeoning is a kind of damage many attacks deal bludgeoning damage like the constrict but have her own rules, in the same form the damage deal for a flask can have other rules that the damage deal for a pool of acid.

Again the rule of the Acid effect no longer take a standard attack with acid as a Acid effect, Acid Effect apply only when you are exposed to the acid not when you are attacked for acid damage like the breath of the dragon that with 15D8 i think this will apply the Poison of the Acid effect but not because is an Attack and dont count as exposed then dont count as an Acid Effect.

Now about the rule of the time sorry but an acid effect not fall in this "last a certain number of rounds" then dont apply (thanks Slagger the Chuul for this point)

Under the rules the DM can assume many thinks like medium immersion but are house rules under the rules you only take 10d6 of damage under TOTAL Immersion.

Because the only rule to check the time is the one in the Acid effect entry then you need one round of exposure to take the damage and one round are full 6 seconds then if you fall in the pool of acid in the initiative count 16 you take the damage until the initiative count 16 of the next round.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Being exposed to the acid lasts a number of rounds equal to those to which you are exposed.

Being exposed to the acid, immersed by falling into a pit of acid, counts as a round of exposure, that is Acid Effect of 1-round.

Nowhere does it say under the rukles that the number of rounds an effect lasts has to be pre-determined. In this case it lasts a number of rounds until you are removed from the effect. Leaving the acid would make that the final round.

And while you dance around word-games, these are the only rules that cover how to handle this. There is no other rules that cover how this works, except these. In the complete and asolute gaping void and absense of any rule to the contrary, of these rules.


Next question, I come across a pit of Acid, I have an empty flask. So I fill said flask with that acid. I now have a Flask of Acid, 1d6 damage as a Ranged Touch Attack with a Thrown Splash Weapon, 1d6 Acid Damage

I then pop off a ring I am wearing (tiny object) and pop it into said Flask of Acid, totally immersing it in acid.

What happens to the ring?