How encompassing is Magic Weapon enhancement?

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ok under your logic if someone is teleported to a pool of magama he take damage for stay there and again at the start of her turn???? that are equal to take damage 2 time in one round instead of let a round happen???

Remember that the initiative start with a trigger and at this point you count the events as in the example of the gooblin and the player that was walking, he start her turn with her full round not only a single action.

the rule say that you can't take damage more that 1 time per round in the case of a object that dont have any initiative you have the chance of do your full round until the damage come again.

as example a object have initiative of -5 and dont roll then you roll your initiative and score 0 then the object can't damage you until her turn that is -5 you have your full round to get out.

Like in the case of 2 creatures that are aware of the other at the same time get her full round action regardless of what they are doing.

then the player spawn in the acid and he can't take damage until the acid do her turn again under general rules and because a object can't roll initiative and have a dex of -5 her initiative is -5 a standar player can overcome this and do her turn first.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, the initiative starts AFTER the trigger, you roll initiative BEFORE actions are taken, not after.

In this case the Fighter moved onto the trap. The trap triggering is a Part of that action. Not a part of the proceeding actions.  He moves, falls into the acid (taking damage) as part of that previous round AND THEN you roll initiative. His next actions occur on the next round.

In the case of the Goblin and fighter meeting each other you aren't using a comparible scenerio, if it worked like the trap it would look like this.

The Fighter is walking along, when a Goblin, waiting in Ambush, leaps out and throws a spear at the fighter (roll attack/damage) Now they are both aware of each other and you proceed in Initiative order and both the Goblin and Fighter can take a turn.

In that ambush situation, like the Acid Trap, the Goblin gets 2 turns. One in the Suprise Round, one in the following round.

In cases like the above (giving the Fighter a Listen, spot check of course) the DM ussually waits to call for Initiative because he doesn't want the player to know of the impending ambush, but technically speaking they are already moving in intitative order. The same with the trap, technically the party should already be moving in initiative, but it simply isn't bothered with until something actually happens.

For example, when not moving in initiative, several people can fit in the same square, so should the DM spring the same 5' pit trap on several people?  Well if they were running in a dark corridor or a couple of people workign to open a trapped chest, maybe, but generally when something like this happens we assume combat situation with each on a seperate square moving in initiative. (after all in AE and Delay Onset traps we want to know who exactly is the one who steps on the trap)

I refer to this as the Suprise round, or the round before. This is when the Warrior made a move action to walk into the trap and consequently fell and took damage, effectively ending his turn.

This is the same as walking into a room where a goblin waits in ambush, this is the suprise round in which he walks into the room and the goblin throws the spear. Fighter's turn (Moved into room), Goblins turn (throw Spear). We now start the regular combat initiative and Both Fighter and Goblin get a turn in the next round.. Lets phrase these together to show how they both work the same.


-The Fighter walks into the room where the trap is hidden
-The Fighter walks into the room where the Goblin is hiding in ambush

-On the Fighter's turn he moves in the trap sapce and triggers it, falling into the acid and takes damage, he then makes a Swim Check (move action) to surface/prevent drowning. This ends his turn.
-On the Fighter's turn he moves into range of the Goblin who makes a Ranged attack with a spear, hits and rolls damage. This ends both of their turns.

-DM calls for an Inititative roll (technically they were already in initiative but the DM has waited so as to not give anything the PC wouldn't know away)

-Everyone makes their next turn (the start of the next round at the beginning of their turn)

-The Fighter's turn, (he takes Acid damage as this is now the second round)
-The Goblin and the Fighter both take turns in Initiative order.

See in the above example the Goblin gets Two turns.

ok under your logic if someone is teleported to a pool of magama he take damage for stay there and again at the start of her turn???? that are equal to take damage 2 time in one round instead of let a round happen???



Not arguing logic, I am arguing the Rules as Written. Under which the game is broken into Rounds, each round is measured from the Start of a turn until just before the start of the next turn. When you encounter this kind of situation you take damage A: when you are exposed and B: At the start of each turn (on the same initiative) while exposed.

This is the exact same hitting a target with an Acid Arrow. They take damage when hit and then again at the start of each proceeding turn in the same initiative.

In the case of the Acid Arrow, this would be at the start of the Caster's turn, not the target's, and in the case of being teleported it would be at the start of the turn in which he was teleported.

For example, If he gets teleported by a Wizard into the pool of Magma, then he would take the Damage when teleported in and then again at the start of the Wizard's Turn.

In the case of stepping onto a trap since it was his turn that triggered the trap, he takes damage from trap during that turn and then again at the start of his next turn.

At no point would it do the damage twice in the same round, the initiative order for the rest of the group continues, which is why I am saying that the rest of his party will have a turn to attempt to save him before his next turn. He takes the remaining turns in that round.

He has made a Move Action to step on the trap, taking damage and then a second Move Action to resurface and avoid drowning. Then it is the next person's turn in Initiative and so on, he doesn't take any more damage that round, not until the Start of his NEXT turn.

You are mistakenly giving him a full turn (2 move actions) After he has already made his turn. He takes the acid damage as part of the move action that he stepped onto the trap with, falling into the pit effectively ends his turn.
       


ok under your logic if someone is teleported to a pool of magama he take damage for stay there and again at the start of her turn???? that are equal to take damage 2 time in one round instead of let a round happen???



Not arguing logic, I am arguing the Rules as Written. Under which the game is broken into Rounds, each round is measured from the Start of a turn until just before the start of the next turn. When you encounter this kind of situation you take damage A: when you are exposed and B: At the start of each turn (on the same initiative) while exposed.

This is the exact same hitting a target with an Acid Arrow. They take damage when hit and then again at the start of each proceeding turn in the same initiative.

In the case of the Acid Arrow, this would be at the start of the Caster's turn, not the target's, and in the case of being teleported it would be at the start of the turn in which he was teleported.

For example, If he gets teleported by a Wizard into the pool of Magma, then he would take the Damage when teleported in and then again at the start of the Wizard's Turn.

In the case of stepping onto a trap since it was his turn that triggered the trap, he takes damage from trap and then again at the start of his next turn.

At no point would it do the damage twice in the same round, the initiative order for the rest of the group continues, which is why I am saying that the rest of his party will have a turn to attempt to save him before his next turn.
       


yes he take damage at the start of the trigger factor like the turn of wizard but in this case a object can't take initiative and have a -5 then the warrior have a full turn to go out.

like you say in the case of the wizard the warrior have 1 full round of action until the wizard do her turn again and the magama deal damage.

as example

Surprice round
Trap Ini -5 deal 35 acid damage.

warrior  roll initiative for 0.

Warrior do her full round to get out.

Trap dont deal any damage.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, the trap doesn't get, nor needs initiative, it deals it's damage on the same turn in which it comes into effect. In this case it is on the Fighter's turn. The Acid doesn't get a turn, it goes off the turn in which it came into effect (ie the Fighter's turn in this case)

In the case of a Wizard casting a spell it deals it's damage at the start of the Wizard's Turn, because that was the turn it came into effect.

The fighter steps onto the acid pit DURING HIS TURN, thereafter he takes damage at the start of the same turn in which it came into effect, the start of His turn.

There is no -5 to initiative or such gibberish, the Acid never gets a turn. If someone else later fell into the acid during their turn, they too would take damage at the start of their own turn.


The damage is again, "per Round" not "per turn" or "on the acid's turn" but per round. The round is measured by the effected target's turn.
Oma, the trap doesn't get, nor needs initiative, it deals it's damage on the same turn in which it comes into effect. In this case it is on the Fighter's turn. The Acid doesn't get a turn, it goes off the turn in which it came into effect (ie the Fighter's turn in this case)

In the case of a Wizard casting a spell it deals it's damage at the start of the Wizard's Turn, because that was the turn it came into effect.

The fighter steps onto the acid pit DURING HIS TURN, thereafter he takes damage at the start of the same turn in which it came into effect, the start of His turn.

There is no -5 to initiative or such gibberish, the Acid never gets a turn. If someone else later fell into the acid during their turn, they too would take damage at the start of their own turn.


The damage is again, "per Round" not "per turn" or "on the acid's turn" but per round. The round is measured by the effected target's turn.

what turn if no one as happen until the initiative start.

the player dont use any kind of action to fall in the trap because are in a narrative part of the roll like

"ok i going to walk for the corridor"
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
I'm getting tired of trying to read all these arguements.  Maybe it's just me but it seem to me that Oma is saying that a character can go through a pool of acid (or really any environmental hazard) without taking any damage provided he doesn't start or end a full "round" in the hazard.  That make zero sense what so ever.  I'm not even listening to anything else because when I get this impression I can't even begin to see where he is getting anything else.
Oma, that is his action, he was walking down the corridor. As I have refered to it was the round before, which I refered to as the "suprise Round" even naratively Movement, ie walking, is based upon the character's Speed, so walking onto the trap is considered a move action, the Character's action is "walking down the corridor"

You are coming at it high handed to state that "Walking down a corridor" isn't an action. And point of fact it changes it from a Move Action to a Full-Round Action, so again when the trap is stepped on it ends the Fighter's turn. SeeCarrying, Movement and Exploration in the DMG, Walking local is your Speed per Minute (60 seconds) is 10 rounds, (move of 30 is 300 ft per minute walking, or 10 rounds at 30 ft per round)

Either way, even as You handle it, the damage from falling into the trap happens during the action (or narative as you put it) and not as part of the new initiative.

That means the damage from falling into the acid was done as part of the previous initiative, the Start of his turn is still the start of a new round and he takes damage again.

If you want to take it this way, the DM, knowing the Trap was there, should have started Initiative. Party enters the room, Initiative Starts (although DM holds off on rolling it for dramatic reasons) During the Fighter's Turn he steps onto the trap. (for Dramatic reasons he isn't told they are moving in initiative) The trap goes off During His turn, if he is still in the acid at the start of the next turn he will take damage again.

Also if there was no initiative order, how did you determine that the fighter was the one who stepped on the trap?

Also If the Fighter falls into the pit and takes damage, and then they roll initiative and the fighter goes dead last in the initiative order, how does that work? He moves, the entire party moves and then he moves again?!?!? How is that One turn?

You just gave the charcater 4 actions in one turn. He moves onto the trap (walking his speed is one move action minimum) falls in and uses a second move action to resurface and avoid drowning, a third move action to swim to the side, and a fourth move action to climb out.

Since you don't know how Suprise rounds and initial combat rounds work, lets get rid of them altogether , to keep it simple.

The Party is half way through an encounter, already acting in Initiative order. 

On the Fighter's turn he gets a free line of movement to the enemies Caster, He makes a move action (he doesn't want to charge at -2 AC) to attack the Caster and steps on the trap (that was why the caster was standing in the open)

He has made a move action to step on the trap, takes damage and must make a Swim check to resurface/avoid drowning (a Move action in this case) of course Full plate and Towershield are factord in. This ends his turn.

Everyone continues to take turns in initiative order. At the start of the Fighter's next turn, The Next Round, he takes damage from being in the acid.

I don't know how you get that traps and spells work differently outside of Initiative, but there you go, I've gotten rid of that issue entirely. 

The Fighter Takes damage on the turn he falls into the Acid and then again at the beginning of his Next turn, one round later
I'm getting tired of trying to read all these arguements.  Maybe it's just me but it seem to me that Oma is saying that a character can go through a pool of acid (or really any environmental hazard) without taking any damage provided he doesn't start or end a full "round" in the hazard.  That make zero sense what so ever.  I'm not even listening to anything else because when I get this impression I can't even begin to see where he is getting anything else.

no i saying that if you fall in the hazard you have a full round to get out until you take damage again
MrCustomer  say that you fall in the hazard you take damage and you take damage again at the start of your turn then you take damage 2 times without do anithing.

and he still are saying that if you are walking and see other players at the same time that they see you and both thrown initiatives each player have only a single action because was walking when under the rules don't happen any surprise round
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, Again refer to my example of falling into a trap during Combat (that gets rid of your confusion over turns and rounds)

Walking (local) is covered under Carrying, Movement and Exploration in the DMG, it is 1 minute (equals 10 rounds) at Your base speed per round. If your speed is 30, then you walk 300 ft per minute (30 ft per round) When he steps on the trap it will be during one of those rounds (and the DM can simply measure from the start of the coridor to know which, 90 ft in is the 3rd round)

So if he walks down a corridor then he falls in on the third round and takes damage, makes his swim check to avoid drowning and that ends that turn. You roll initiative, on his next turn he will take damage again.

Yes he takes 2 rounds of damage before getting a chance to get out, this is no different then a person with move 40 swimming across a 30 ft pool of acid, he could dive in (takes damage and move 20 ft as a full-round action, then at the start of his next turn he takes damage again at the start of his turn and can swim 10 ft as a move action and then climb out.

What can I say? He moved, fell in and that's the end of his turn, if he is still in the acid on his next turn he takes damage again.

Is it harsh? Yes, I believe so, but you will note that I called to question the CR of the trap as being inapporpriate. Yes the rules for traps allow you to adjust the CR with what you trigger the trap with, but sometimes it just doesn't work out and the DM needs to adjust accordingly, this is one of those cases, I would not use this as a CR 8 trap

Refer to my reference to falling into the same trap during combat, when there is no arguement over initiative.  
 


  
Oma, Again refer to my example of falling into a trap during Combat (that gets rid of your confusion over turns and rounds)

Walking (local) is covered under Carrying, Movement and Exploration in the DMG, it is 1 minute (equals 10 rounds) at Your base speed per round. If your speed is 30, then you walk 300 ft per minute (30 ft per round) When he steps on the trap it will be during one of those rounds (and the DM can simply measure from the start of the coridor to know which, 90 ft in is the 3rd round)

So if he walks down a corridor then he falls in on the third round and takes damage, makes his swim check to avoid drowning and that ends that turn. You roll initiative, on his next turn he will take damage again.

Yes he takes 2 rounds of damage before getting a chance to get out, this is no different then a person with move 40 swimming across a 30 ft pool of acid, he could dive in (takes damage and move 20 ft as a full-round action, then at the start of his next turn he takes damage again at the start of his turn and can swim 10 ft as a move action and then climb out.

What can I say? He moved, fell in and that's the end of his turn, if he is still in the acid on his next turn he takes damage again.

Is it harsh? Yes, I believe so, but you will note that I called to question the CR of the trap as being inapporpriate. Yes the rules for traps allow you to adjust the CR with what you trigger the trap with, but sometimes it just doesn't work out and the DM needs to adjust accordingly, this is one of those cases, I would not use this as a CR 8 trap

Refer to my reference to falling into the same trap during combat, when there is no arguement over initiative.  
 


  

the rules say too that you can't deal damage more that 1 time per round and in this case you are doing the damage 2 times

first if theplayer fall, the round start with the damage and you can do your full turn, in the case of fall in a trap in middle of a battle you fall in your turn and you have full 6 seconds until this happen again as standar you do it in the same initiative count in this case you maybe dont have chance to do nothing because you lose your turn in the battle not in the trap.

in other part if you are out of battle you turn start with the trigger in this case take damage then take damage start the round and you have a full round to do your own turn.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, again REFER TO MY EXAMPLE WHERE INITIATIVE IS ALREADY DETERMINED!!!

And Oma the round doesn't Start with the trigger, the initial damage occured PRIOR to the round, The Trigger occurs during the "narative" part as you call it. When you roll initiative you begine a NEw round. His next turn doesn't start with the damage taken on the previous round.

He was walking down the corridor and fell into a pool of acid, takes damage AND THEN you started a New round.

Here is the Example again:

-The Party is half way through an encounter, already acting in Initiative order.

-On the Fighter's turn he gets a free line of movement to the enemies Caster, He makes a move action (he doesn't want to charge at -2 AC) to attack the Caster and steps on the trap (that was why the caster was standing in the open)

-He has made a move action to step on the trap, takes damage and must make a Swim check to resurface/avoid drowning (a Move action in this case) of course Full plate and Towershield are factord in. This ends his turn.

Everyone continues to take turns in initiative order. At the start of the Fighter's next turn, The Next Round, he takes damage from being in the acid.

I don't know how you get that traps and spells work differently outside of Initiative, but there you go, I've gotten rid of that issue entirely.

The Fighter Takes damage on the turn he falls into the Acid and then again at the beginning of his Next turn, one round later
Oma, again REFER TO MY EXAMPLE WHERE INITIATIVE IS ALREADY DETERMINED!!!

And Oma the round doesn't Start with the trigger, the initial damage occured PRIOR to the round, The Trigger occurs during the "narative" part as you call it. When you roll initiative you begine a NEw round. His next turn doesn't start with the damage taken on the previous round.

He was walking down the corridor and fell into a pool of acid, takes damage AND THEN you started a New round.

Here is the Example again:

-The Party is half way through an encounter, already acting in Initiative order.

-On the Fighter's turn he gets a free line of movement to the enemies Caster, He makes a move action (he doesn't want to charge at -2 AC) to attack the Caster and steps on the trap (that was why the caster was standing in the open)

-He has made a move action to step on the trap, takes damage and must make a Swim check to resurface/avoid drowning (a Move action in this case) of course Full plate and Towershield are factord in. This ends his turn.

Everyone continues to take turns in initiative order. At the start of the Fighter's next turn, The Next Round, he takes damage from being in the acid.

I don't know how you get that traps and spells work differently outside of Initiative, but there you go, I've gotten rid of that issue entirely.

The Fighter Takes damage on the turn he falls into the Acid and then again at the beginning of his Next turn, one round later

i was saying already ¬¬ you don't read right???

in this case the trap not are in middle of a encounter then like when a mage take you in a surprise round with an initiative of 5 and hit you with acid arrow and now you roll your initiative for 6 you take a full round to do your action before take the damage of the acid arrow again.

and because object have no initiative you alwais go first.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, in the case of being hit with a Spell from a Mage the initial damage is done on the Mage's turn and then again at the start of the Mage's next turn. (so you would get a full round in between to act on your turn)

The Trap however is triggered on the Fighter's turn and as such he takes damage then and then again at the start of his next turn, a Full Round Later.

It's not hard to understand that something that happens on your turn, happens on your turn.
Oma, in the case of being hit with a Spell from a Mage the initial damage is done on the Mage's turn and then again at the start of the Mage's next turn. (so you would get a full round in between to act on your turn)


The Trap however is triggered on the Fighter's turn and as such he takes damage then and then again at the start of his next turn, a Full Round Later

not if you not are in a combat remember that for start a turn something need to trigger the initiative.

then this trap happen in the same round that you are doing your turn, the damage starting the round and make other player act.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
The trap works the same in combat as it does outside of combat, you don't get extra moves.

And as explained, local movement occurs in turns, your speed in 10 rounds (1 minute)

So a fighter (move 30) walking down a corridor and stepping on a trap 120 feet in, would take 4 rounds to reach.

On the 4th round he steps on a trap, falls in and takes damage, makes a Swim check to avoid drowning. This ends his movement for that round and you roll initiative, and Start a new round.

You see what I am trying to tell you, even though you aren't using initiative, their movement is still based on rounds  so his move and stepping into a trap is identicle to the same event occuring in combat.
  
I'm getting tired of trying to read all these arguements.  Maybe it's just me but it seem to me that Oma is saying that a character can go through a pool of acid (or really any environmental hazard) without taking any damage provided he doesn't start or end a full "round" in the hazard.  That make zero sense what so ever.  I'm not even listening to anything else because when I get this impression I can't even begin to see where he is getting anything else.

no i saying that if you fall in the hazard you have a full round to get out until you take damage again
MrCustomer  say that you fall in the hazard you take damage and you take damage again at the start of your turn then you take damage 2 times without do anithing.

and he still are saying that if you are walking and see other players at the same time that they see you and both thrown initiatives each player have only a single action because was walking when under the rules don't happen any surprise round


You know, if you VOLUNTARILY jumped into a hazard I'd say you have the rest of your round to get out again before taking damage again but I you get surprised, and YES a trap can surprise you, you will be taking a minimum of two rounds of damage before you can get out.

Oh, I will agree with you that if you have a party walking across an open plain and a goblin walking in from the other way everyone will get to see everyone and there will be no surprise round and everyone can start with full rounds.  The problem is that is NOT what happens with traps.  A trap basically has perfect perception as it "sees" whoever triggers it; the same is not true for whoever walks into the trap.  To make your "example" work you are replacing the goblin with a visible obstacle which the character will see before they "fall in" which gives them time to think about it.  If someone walks up to that acid pool and jumps in they will have the rest of their round to get out to avoid further damage; if they fall in then things are going to be a LOT harder to resolve without further damage.
 

in this case the trap have a initiative score of -5 and any player can do her turn before the trap like the example of the wizard in a surprise round.

but again traps never get you unaware remember that the trap sense bonus are dodge bonus if you don't are aware of trap then you never use this bonus that is for traps only.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
I know we have been hard on you for quoting too much but now you may have gone to the other extreme and are quoting too little.  If you're going to "quote" at least put something in there other wise you could just say @Oma012 if you're trying to call someone out.

in this case the trap have a initiative score of -5 and any player can do her turn before the trap like the example of the wizard in a surprise round.

but again traps never get you unaware remember that the trap sense bonus are dodge bonus if you don't are aware of trap then you never use this bonus that is for traps only.


Interesting.  So how does the trap get an initative score of -5?  I thought you've said traps don't get an iniative.

Now what is this new line of desperation?  Trying to bring the Trap Sense ability from several classes in point out how a trap can't make you FF because if they did the dodge bonus it provides would be worthless?  You seem to be missing one VERY important thing about the Trap Sense ability; IT FOLLOWS A CHARACTER GETTING UNCANNY DODGE (AND THE IMPROVED VERSION) WHICH WILL LET THEM KEEP HIS DEX and with it DODGE bonsues EVEN WHEN FLAT-FOOTED.  Such a character certainly can be surprise and flat-footed but they just don't suffer some of the normal penalties for that.
 
I know we have been hard on you for quoting too much but now you may have gone to the other extreme and are quoting too little.  If you're going to "quote" at least put something in there other wise you could just say @Oma012 if you're trying to call someone out.

in this case the trap have a initiative score of -5 and any player can do her turn before the trap like the example of the wizard in a surprise round.

but again traps never get you unaware remember that the trap sense bonus are dodge bonus if you don't are aware of trap then you never use this bonus that is for traps only.


Interesting.  So how does the trap get an initative score of -5?  I thought you've said traps don't get an iniative.

Now what is this new line of desperation?  Trying to bring the Trap Sense ability from several classes in point out how a trap can't make you FF because if they did the dodge bonus it provides would be worthless?  You seem to be missing one VERY important thing about the Trap Sense ability; IT FOLLOWS A CHARACTER GETTING UNCANNY DODGE (AND THE IMPROVED VERSION) WHICH WILL LET THEM KEEP HIS DEX and with it DODGE bonsues EVEN WHEN FLAT-FOOTED.  Such a character certainly can be surprise and flat-footed but they just don't suffer some of the normal penalties for that.
 

First: a object can't make the initiative check and a object have -5 dex then if you going to use a object in a battle her initiative is -5

then the trap surprise you and roll her initiative for the surprise round and is -5 and deal 35 acid damage now the player are aware of the trap and roll her initiative for 0 and then he can do her turn before the trap and can get out the pool before take damage again.

Second: Trap Sense in a rouge is getting at level 3 while uncanny donde are getting at level 4 then as you are saying this bonus never is used at level 3 because the trap always get you FF then why god let a rouge this unuseful ability at level 3????

and all reflex save doing again a trap are without dex and all the traps that make attacks can do sneak attack????

now a non hidden pit take you FF???

the traps never get you FF unlike described in the trap, then all level 1 traps are broken.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Second: Trap Sense in a rouge is getting at level 3 while uncanny donde are getting at level 4 then as you are saying this bonus never is used at level 3 because the trap always get you FF then why god let a rouge this unuseful ability at level 3????

and all reflex save doing again a trap are without dex and all the traps that make attacks can do sneak attack????

now a non hidden pit take you FF???

the traps never get you FF unlike described in the trap, then all level 1 traps are broken.


I guess I need to give you a Rogue gaining Trap Sense before getting Uncanny Dodge (I was looking at the Barbarian) but that still doesn't mean it is a useless ability if they can't use it flat-footed.  It IS possible to know about a trap and thus be prepared for it to go off in which case you'll be aware and have your DEX (and with that Dodge) bonuses.

You like quoting the rules so show me where you give up DEX on your REF saves.  It would be even better if you can find something that is either specific for all traps or completely universal because otherwise characters get to include DEX with all their saves.  Oh, and if a trap had some method of dealing sneak attack damage I'd certainly permit it if a character meets the qualifications to be sneak attacked.

How does a visible pit make you FF?  Falling in unexpectly should probably do it just like getting attacked by someone you don't consider a threat could make you flat-footed. 

Traps, broken?  In a lot ways they certainly can be especially if you're using traps with CRs that match a party's level or are higher.  Traps are broken because they can often be defeated by just one or two skill checks yet if those skill checks fail, or aren't taken, traps can be truely devestating to an individual or group.  Immersing someone in an epic acid pit is certainly on of those "broken" traps especially if you want to add an anti-magic field to it and also want to apply acid damage to all of that unfortunate character's equipment. 
Traps don't get initiative period. The Damage they deal occurs instantly when exposed and then again at the start of each turn in the initiative order in which they were orriginally exposed.

The trap doesn't act on it's own initiative, because a trap doesn't walk under a Fighter and trigger itself.

The Trap here is acting as a result of the Fighter's Initiative. The Fighter triggered the trap by his actions, his initiative and fell in. The Acid damage occurs as a result of the fighter's action, it occurs during the fighter's turn in which he stepped on the trap.

Additional damage will reoccur again at the start of the Fighter's turn, because it was his initiative that triggered the trap. The Damage dealt by the trap during the fighter's turn is due to the Fighter being in the trap during his turn.

" Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on"


Relevant Rule:

For almost all purposes, there is no relevance to the end of a round or the beginning of a round. A round can be a segment of game time starting with the first character to act and ending with the last, but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on


   

-A Round is measured from your turn to just before your next turn in the same initiative count. ie from the fighter's turn to just before his next turn is one round.

-Effects are applied on the same initiative count on which they came into effect. Acid Damge doesn't get an initiative, it occurs instantly when exposed and then again at the start of each turn on the same initiative count that it began on.

Exploring a Dungeon is Local movement, and walking is measured in one minute (10 rounds) at your base speed per round.

When a Fighter, outside of initiative, walks and steps into a trap, that was his pre-combat round. Walks and falls into an Acid pit trap, takes damage, Swim Check to Surface/avoid drowning (move action.) Turn ends.

On his next turn, if he is still in the acid, he will take damage.
Second: Trap Sense in a rouge is getting at level 3 while uncanny donde are getting at level 4 then as you are saying this bonus never is used at level 3 because the trap always get you FF then why god let a rouge this unuseful ability at level 3????

and all reflex save doing again a trap are without dex and all the traps that make attacks can do sneak attack????

now a non hidden pit take you FF???

the traps never get you FF unlike described in the trap, then all level 1 traps are broken.


I guess I need to give you a Rogue gaining Trap Sense before getting Uncanny Dodge (I was looking at the Barbarian) but that still doesn't mean it is a useless ability if they can't use it flat-footed.  It IS possible to know about a trap and thus be prepared for it to go off in which case you'll be aware and have your DEX (and with that Dodge) bonuses.

You like quoting the rules so show me where you give up DEX on your REF saves.  It would be even better if you can find something that is either specific for all traps or completely universal because otherwise characters get to include DEX with all their saves.  Oh, and if a trap had some method of dealing sneak attack damage I'd certainly permit it if a character meets the qualifications to be sneak attacked.

How does a visible pit make you FF?  Falling in unexpectly should probably do it just like getting attacked by someone you don't consider a threat could make you flat-footed. 

Traps, broken?  In a lot ways they certainly can be especially if you're using traps with CRs that match a party's level or are higher.  Traps are broken because they can often be defeated by just one or two skill checks yet if those skill checks fail, or aren't taken, traps can be truely devestating to an individual or group.  Immersing someone in an epic acid pit is certainly on of those "broken" traps especially if you want to add an anti-magic field to it and also want to apply acid damage to all of that unfortunate character's equipment. 

First in what part of the trap section say that the trap get you flat footed, as example
Fire trap spell never say that get you FF.

Traps that attack with arrows, sweeping blades, and other types of weaponry make normal attack rolls, with a specific attack bonus dictated by the trap’s design.

Pits: These are holes (covered or not) that characters can fall into and take damage. A pit needs no attack roll, but a successful Reflex save (DC set by the builder) avoids it. Other save-dependent mechanical traps also fall into this category.

-Again nothing about get you FF.


Reflex (From Rule Compendium)
You can make a Reflex save whenever one is called for, but your Dexterity or whether you can apply its modifier might be altered by the situation.

-This because make a save again a fireball in a hole of 5X5X5 or paralyzed almost is impossible but you still can do the reflex save with penaltys in your Dex.

-And at last then you are saying that the rouge table are wrong and you need gain first UD and after TS?????

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Relevant Rule:

For almost all purposes, there is no relevance to the end of a round or the beginning of a round. A round can be a segment of game time starting with the first character to act and ending with the last, but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on


   

-A Round is measured from your turn to just before your next turn in the same initiative count. ie from the fighter's turn to just before his next turn is one round.

-Effects are applied on the same initiative count on which they came into effect. Acid Damge doesn't get an initiative, it occurs instantly when exposed and then again at the start of each turn on the same initiative count that it began on.

Exploring a Dungeon is Local movement, and walking is measured in one minute (10 rounds) at your base speed per round.

When a Fighter, outside of initiative, walks and steps into a trap, that was his pre-combat round. Walks and falls into an Acid pit trap, takes damage, Swim Check to Surface/avoid drowning (move action.) Turn ends.

On his next turn, if he is still in the acid, he will take damage.

again the trap damage start the round and the initiative, this is a killing traps (for the great damage for the CR) and under the rules you you should not put it in middle of a encounter, Combat adventage traps are placed near or in the encounter area as described in Dungeonscape.

First round(trigger with the activation of the trap)
-Damage
-Player

Next Round
-Damage
-Player

or if you like it be as a surprice round and make it a Encounter trap then he gain a initiative score like is described in Dungeonscape
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, it says "Might be" altered.

You aren't considered Flat Footed though when stepping on a trap under normal circumstances because it is persumed that you are moving cautiously. Walking locally is again your speed per round, which considering you get 2 moves a round means you are walking at half speed.

All characters, Rogues and otherwise, get a reflex save when appropriate when stepping on a pit trap with their full Dex score added, they are not flat footed.

However, this should be noted, that is when they are walking normally, (moving half speed) If there are moving Recklessly or running/hustling then they are considered Flat Footed and DO NOT get a reflex save for pit traps (well except Rogues of course)

The reason this is important to note is because when moving your speed as a move action in combat you are running/Hustling, and as such the DM could, and probably should, consider it moving recklessly.

ie you move 30 ft (run) around the corner to attack the goblin and step in a pit trap, you should not get a Reflex save for a pit trap.

Relevant Rules:

"A character who fails to detect a covered pit is still entitled to a DC 20 Reflex save to avoid falling into it. However, if she was running or moving recklessly at the time, she gets no saving throw and falls automatically."

"Use tactical movement for combat. Characters generally don’t walk during combat—they hustle or run. A character who moves his or her speed and takes some action is hustling for about half the round and doing something else the other half."

when you run you dont are FF not are described and is the same for Hustling or walking, some special traps are invisible and get you FF if attack or make you non save if are a reflex trap.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, when you run on a hidden pit trap (hidden is 100% concealment) you are considered flat footed to that trap, Hustling/running in combat and stepping on 100% concealed trap is considered flat footed to that trap.

remember that you can be considered Flat Footed to one target (such as an invisible Rogue) but not flat footed to another target.

You aren't flat footed while walking because you are moving your speed as a full-round action. in combat you are runnign/hustling.

Relevant Rules:

"A character who fails to detect a covered pit is still entitled to a DC 20 Reflex save to avoid falling into it. However, if she was running or moving recklessly at the time, she gets no saving throw and falls automatically."

"Use tactical movement for combat. Characters generally don’t walk during combat—they hustle or run. A character who moves his or her speed and takes some action is hustling for about half the round and doing something else the other half."   

A DM should use his discretion, but generally movement in combat (Run 30 feet and attack the enemy) is running/moving recklessly and as such he should be considered Flat Footed in regard to 100% concealed pit traps

sorry you dont because the trap description never say that a trap get you FF but you can as DM give a penalty in her DEX bonus for the situation but still again a attack the creature dont are FF.

because like a rouge when attack and take -20 to your hide and maybe the player can see you, the in this case when the trap is triggered you are aware of the trap before it deal damage or attack or you make your Save
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
again the trap damage start the round and the initiative,



No, Oma, the damage is part of the Full-Round move action that was used to step on the trap. The Damage is resolves Immediately as part of that Action, the Fighter walks, moving his full speed as a full-round action and falls into a pit trap, damage is resolved Instantly, and it ends his turn. 

Damage from a trap is NOT resolved as part of the next Turn, it is resolved as part of the the action taken during the previous turn


He is not falling into the trap at the beginning of his next turn, he is falling into the trap as part of his current turn, resolved the trap's effect and then ENDS HIS TURN!


this is a killing traps (for the great damage for the CR) and under the rules you you should not put it in middle of a encounter, Combat adventage traps are placed near or in the encounter area as described in Dungeonscape.



There are no rules saying inteligent creatures can't take advantage of their terrain. Nor are their rules stating that a DM can only use encounters from the Random Encounter tables.

The DM can use whatever creatures/traps he damn well wants to use.

No Goblins are going to say "oh well we better not set up our ambush here, it's against the rules to fight adventurers near this trap"

This trap works exactly the same in Combat as it does outside of Combat


So in Combat, after rolling initiative, on the Fighter's turn, he runs to attack the Goblin caster, and steps into an acid pit trap, fails his save and falls into the acid, takes damage, makes a Swim check to resurface/prevent drowning as a move action) His Turn Ends!

The inititative order continues and everyone continues taking their turns.

When it is the fighter's turn again, if he is still in the acid (and noone has dragged him out) he takes damage again      


Oma:
 
Previous Rounds:
-Fighter walking his Speed/Round (Full-Round Action)
-Steps into pit trap, takes Damage
-Turn Ends 

Second Round: (roll initiative but it really isn't needed, just let everyone have a turn before the fighter, He calls a Wait)
-If the Figher is still in the Acid at the Start of his turn then he takes damage for this Round

Is how it looks.  
   
why you say that all the game are under turns always is too slow a player dont count turns until something trigger it and from this point you cont 6 second as each round.

then a fighter run and  fall in a trap the at this point you star to count the round.
like in the example of roll play in DMG, player are out of rounds until something important required it and starting at this point the round.

Then if you are walking and you see a creature and that creature see you as well, then you start your full round starting of this point you dont count that you was made a move before.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

sorry you dont because the trap description never say that a trap get you FF but you can as DM give a penalty in her DEX bonus for the situation but still again a attack the creature dont are FF.

because like a rouge when attack and take -20 to your hide and maybe the player can see you, the in this case when the trap is triggered you are aware of the trap before it deal damage or attack or you make your Save

Oma, The rules say for pit traps this:

"A character who fails to detect a covered pit is still entitled to a DC 20 Reflex save to avoid falling into it. However, if she was running or moving recklessly at the time, she gets no saving throw and falls automatically." 

That is the definition of Flat Footed, but this is nit picking, the point is that under these conditions you automatically fall with no saving through (which means no Dex modifier but that is moot)
      
  
Oma, Under the Rules for Movement: Walking is measured in moving Your speed as a Full-round action per round for 10 rounds, or 1 Minute Rounds as you could say.

Rounds in combat are considered as 6 seconds, but that is a Combat Round,  but outside of combat "rounds" and actions are often taken as larger durations. For instance Local Movement is done in 1 Minute rounds (equals 10 combat rounds) and movement is 10 times your base speed, Speed of 30 is a move of 300 ft.

A Round in this case is "Walk down a long hallway", or "Search a room (take-10 or take-20)" or any Take-20 action. Generally they don't "count" those rounds/turns individually, but they are still rounds.

When the Fighter steps on a trap, that is resolved as part of that previous "round" of walking. Even though it is not a Combat Round, it is still a round and the result of the trap is resolved during that round.
Oma, Under the Rules for Movement: Walking is measured in moving Your speed as a Full-round action per round for 10 rounds, or 1 Minute Rounds as you could say.

Rounds in combat are considered as 6 seconds, but that is a Combat Round,  but outside of combat "rounds" and actions are often taken as larger durations. For instance Local Movement is done in 1 Minute rounds (equals 10 combat rounds) and movement is 10 times your base speed, Speed of 30 is a move of 300 ft.

A Round in this case is "Walk down a long hallway", or "Search a room (take-10 or take-20)" or any Take-20 action. Generally they don't "count" those rounds/turns individually, but they are still rounds.

When the Fighter steps on a trap, that is resolved as part of that previous "round" of walking. Even though it is not a Combat Round, it is still a round and the result of the trap is resolved during that round.

under the rules and examples of the DMG you dont take actions of any kind until you roll initiative all other factore are narrative until the initiative start, as example you can say "i go to the shop" your dm don't going to say you "then roll initiative and start to walk"

then if something happen while you are walking through the city you roll your initiative to do your full round action no matter who you were walking

and about the trap this only work with covered pits not standard pits look the DC is 20 to reflex
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
  under the rules and examples of the DMG you dont take actions of any kind until you roll initiative



No, Oma, those rules are for COMBAT ACTIONS. You don't take any actions in combat until you roll initiative. If you wanted to resolve this in Combat then you would roll Inititative BEFORE he walked onto the trap, and he would have to move onto the trap during his turn as a move action.

Movement and traps are handled it the section concerning Movement and travel. He didn't walk into the pit during combat, it is not resolved in the following combat round, it would be part of the so-called-narrative round, it happened as a result of movement, it is resolved as part of that movement.

That is the Stupidest thing I have heard in a long time. If they don't take actions of any kind THEN HOW THE HELL DID THEY GET INTO THE DUNGEON?!?! HOW DID HE WALK ONTO THE TRAP?!?!?!

Walking is a 1-Minute Move action. 

all other factore are narrative until the initiative start, as example you can say "i go to the shop" your dm don't going to say you "then roll initiative and start to walk"



Initiative is only required  if there is a need to go in turn order. He is walking to the store? it is 3000 feet away, if he walks (base move 30) it will take him 10 rounds, 300 feet/minute, to reach the store. He Could Hustle and get there in 5 rounds (600ft/minute) or Run there in three rounds (1,200 feet/minute)

If another person was walking along an opposing path of the same distance (say both people are 3000 feet away from the store) and the DM wanted to determine who gets there first, he would roll initiative. 
   
You can take damage from falling or stepping onto a trap without being in combat rounds or having an initiative roll.

then if something happen while you are walking through the city you roll your initiative to do your full round action no matter who you were walking

Yes but that Initiative and Full Round action would occur AFTER somethign happened.


and about the trap this only work with covered pits not standard pits look the DC is 20 to reflex


Oma, if the Pit is visible and Spotted by the Fighter then a Refles Save isn't needed as he can simply avoid the pit altogether. The reflex save is made becuase he failed to spot the trap.

If he falls in it is because of a Failed Reflex save because he didn't see it (100% concealment) maybe he was texting while walking.

And if it a plainly visible pit that the Fighter has seen and he declares, "Well I am going to run and jump over it" (2 move actions) then falling in ends his turn for that round. You would be givin a Character 4 Moves in a single round.

the rules of movement are for combat the rule you call is LOCAL MOVEMENT,  that don't are in rounds only are to see how much distance you can cover in 1 min. and if you are in local movement and something trigger initiatives you have your full round action like in the example of the mage in the city going to the Item shop.

the rule let you use Taling in local move to fellow creatures without trigger initiatives.

and in your example, yes local movement are for control the time if your players are in a city and each go to do something you can control who reach first the item shop but you dont roll the initiative and follow each round you only need to see the speed of each player and the local move that is used and at last a single initiative roll to see who reach first if both do the same.

about the traps

Deeper Pit Trap are a hidden trap of DC 15 and based in this are the CR as special rule if you don't see a trap you need make a DC 20 again a reflex trap.

and almost all dungeon dont have light a figther without spot (fighter dont have spot skills and low skills points) can fall in a uncovered pit and he can make a save again a uncovered pit although was running
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, either way falling into the pit is a part of the previous movement and not a art of the new round.

If you want to roll initiative then you should do so the same as you would a Goblin hiding in ambush. initiative would begin on the turn BEFORE the fighter walked into the trap.

That is as soon as he declared he was moving into the area of the trap (before he moved) initiative should have been determined. He then would have moved on his turn in initiative into the trap, failed his save and falling in to take damage, ending his turn.

The damage of the trap doesn't change, the trap works exactly the same inside of combat rounds as it does outside of combat rounds. It's important for the rules to be consistant, the trap always works the same.

If You insist on inititative starting it, then you should stat initiative when the trap is encountered, that is when it is in range of their movement. If you want to treat their movement as Overland Travel then they simply cannot move onto the trap during your "narrative" part, as soon as they are in range of movement to the trap then they should start initiative, you are starting initiative a round late.

as compared already to a Goblin laying in ambush. When the characters move into range initiative starts (even if the PC are unaware) the goblin throws a spear at the fighter, and then as the party was unaware, the next round begins. The Goblin gets another turn (two turns total) possibly before the Fghter's turn.

Now alot of DMs don't roll inititative right away to preserve the dramatic suprise for the players, the same with a trap, ruins the dramatic if you roll initiative etc, so generally speaking, "you hear a click, make a reflex save!" or "a spear flys at at you, hitting You square on, you take 23 damage" but in reality, behind the DM screen, he has already started initiative. He only delays rolling it for dramatic effect.
Oma, either way falling into the pit is a part of the previous movement and not a art of the new round.

If you want to roll initiative then you should do so the same as you would a Goblin hiding in ambush. initiative would begin on the turn BEFORE the fighter walked into the trap.

That is as soon as he declared he was moving into the area of the trap (before he moved) initiative should have been determined. He then would have moved on his turn in initiative into the trap, failed his save and falling in to take damage, ending his turn.

The damage of the trap doesn't change, the trap works exactly the same inside of combat rounds as it does outside of combat rounds. It's important for the rules to be consistant, the trap always works the same.

If You insist on inititative starting it, then you should stat initiative when the trap is encountered, that is when it is in range of their movement. If you want to treat their movement as Overland Travel then they simply cannot move onto the trap during your "narrative" part, as soon as they are in range of movement to the trap then they should start initiative, you are starting initiative a round late.

as compared already to a Goblin laying in ambush. When the characters move into range initiative starts (even if the PC are unaware) the goblin throws a spear at the fighter, and then as the party was unaware, the next round begins. The Goblin gets another turn (two turns total) possibly before the Fghter's turn.

Now alot of DMs don't roll inititative right away to preserve the dramatic suprise for the players, the same with a trap, ruins the dramatic if you roll initiative etc, so generally speaking, "you hear a click, make a reflex save!" or "a spear flys at at you, hitting You square on, you take 23 damage" but in reality, behind the DM screen, he has already started initiative. He only delays rolling it for dramatic effect.

again under the rules the Initiative is triggered under a special circumstance not before and starting the initiative you start to count the rounds, i agree while combat the trap do damages 2 times but for this the rules of the traps in the Dungeonscape (Book for traps) say that this kind of trap need stay out of battle because are killing traps and under the rules if you trigger the initiative whit a trap you still have your own turn to get out.

Example

you are walking for 2 hours and 33 Seconds from the start of the day (you are in middle of your 1206 turn of the day) and something trigger the initiative, you don't say "ok i was in my middle my turn then y can only do a standard or a move or a swift action", you do your full round because the time are starting again then you not are in the 3 seconds of your 1206 round you are in the 0 seconds of your first round and in the case of a swift action you can only do single and free action while surprise round.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, regardless of when Initiative is triggered, the damage dealt by the trap is resolved on the action that the trap was triggered with. You would resolve the trap first, completely. and then you would start Initiative, it would be a new round.

1: Fighter moves down hall, steps in trap, Resolve Trap damage and consequences. Fighter's turn/move is ended

2: Start initiative, the fighter takes a second round of damage at the start of his turn.

Either way falling into the trap is resolved as part of the previous action, and effectively ends his turn.

As also stated the rules must be consistant. The trap functions exactly the same in or out of initiative. The damage from falling into a trap is not resolved as part of his future actions.

  "you do your full round because the time are starting again then you not are in the 3 seconds of your 1206 round you are in the 0 seconds of your first round"

You resolve the trap before beginning a new round because the future round (after you stepped on the trap) doesn't begin 3 seconds into the past either. Initiative starts a NEW round.

This is the same as when the party encounters a Goblin hiding in ambush, The goblin throws a spear at then from hiding, the fighter takes damage, and now the party rolls initiative to start a new round. The Goblin gets another turn (2 rounds, just like the acid)

You are never in the "0 seconds" of a turn, 0 seconds is "just before the same initiative" when a turn starts you would be in "the first second" The damage done from falling into the acid occurs before this, before initiative starts, before "0 seconds"

Again, the trap functions exactly the same in combat as it does outside of combat.  
Anyway, my actual, on topic point:

When falling into a pit of acid like this (still a harsh trap even for 1 round of damage) I wouldn't deal damage to the person's gear if they survived, at least not the magical gear. I would only deal damage to magical items if the person died.

This much damage from a pit of acid would otherwise destroy most magical items instantly, with exception to swords and armor. 

For a CR 7 trap, compared to other traps of that rating (which also do 10d6 damage) this trap is one of those cases of not quite fitting in the normal rules and a Dm should raise the CR accordingly.  A Lightning bolt 10d6 damage trap of the same CR one does a single round of damage, doesn't need Climb/swim checks to avoid further damage (with no additional saves) and doesn't target the magic items unless they roll a natural 1, and even then the items get their own saving throws and again, only 1 round of damage.

Dm would also have to use his dicretion on what was reactive to the acid, in the same way as he has to use his descretion on what would be flamable in the case of fire.