How encompassing is Magic Weapon enhancement?

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3.5

SRD:

(Magic Weapon Spell): "Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. (An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon’s +1 bonus on attack rolls.)"

(Magic Vestment Spell): "You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level)."

(Enhancement Bonus): "An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon"

(Magic Armor, Shields, and Weapons): "Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield and +10 to the item’s hit points."

So, my question is, if I "buff" my weapons and shield before a fight with that sleazy sundering blackguard with such enhancing spells, can I claim the temporary item hardness and hit points, too?

Neue 
I would presume so, yes.
I agree. If you have the enhancement bonus, you should have everything that goes with it.

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3.5

SRD:

(Magic Weapon Spell): "Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. (An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon’s +1 bonus on attack rolls.)"

(Magic Vestment Spell): "You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level)."

(Enhancement Bonus): "An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon"

(Magic Armor, Shields, and Weapons): "Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield and +10 to the item’s hit points."

So, my question is, if I "buff" my weapons and shield before a fight with that sleazy sundering blackguard with such enhancing spells, can I claim the temporary item hardness and hit points, too?

Neue 

i think yes because while the spell work your wepon become a magical weapon +X and the rules say that the magic weapon/armor have better HP hardness and save that the mundane weapons.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Nothing there says anything about temporary enhancement bonuses not granting the increased stats to the weapon/armor, so I'd say that, until the spell ends, the weapon/armor are protected (just like a regular magical item).
I think we are in agreement that your temporary enhancement bonus provided by the spells will also improve the item's hitpoint and hardness while they are in effect.

Of course the improved Hardness may be the most important thing as it can PREVENT damage from happening.  I say this is the most important thing because once the effect ends I would say the item will also lose any hitpoints the enhancement provided (think of it as a CON boost for your item) and thus the item could then fall apart if it had taken any damage.  The magic may have held the item together during the fight but when it ends the "glue" also ends.
 
I think we are in agreement that your temporary enhancement bonus provided by the spells will also improve the item's hitpoint and hardness while they are in effect.

Of course the improved Hardness may be the most important thing as it can PREVENT damage from happening.  I say this is the most important thing because once the effect ends I would say the item will also lose any hitpoints the enhancement provided (think of it as a CON boost for your item) and thus the item could then fall apart if it had taken any damage.  The magic may have held the item together during the fight but when it ends the "glue" also ends.
 

but the item is a object with no CON, this will be temporal HP and then is the first in going and then at the end of the spell the weapon are in the same HP

you say that is equal that a barbarian with rage while i saying that is like a undead with Psionic vigor.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
I think you just said something which was supposed to mean exactly the same as what has just been said...
I think you just said something which was supposed to mean exactly the same as what has just been said...

No Fred, Oma012 is basically saying the exact opposite of what I'm saying.  While I realize objects do NOT have CON scores I'm saying that when your magically enhanced item gets the crap beat out of it (although the higher hardness prevents a lot of damage) it may just fall apart when the magic that was holding it together ends.  Oma is saying that in that same situation the item could still be in pristine condition once the magic ends despite taking damage.

Let's say you start with a heavy mace (hardness 10, hp 20) then get a high level cleric to cast Greater Magic Weapon on it giving it a +4 enhancement bonus (+8 hardness, +40 hp) giving in a net hardness 18 and 60 hp while the enchancement is active.  The guy wielding this weapon then encounters that sleezy, sunder happy Blackguard and his +2 Adamantine Greatsword.  We'll say damage is 2d6+6 (13) for this example.  Now the Blackguard's weapon usually makes very short work of any weapon the opponent may wield (ignores hardness <20 and many items only have 5 or 10 hp as a base) but here that heavy mace is going to be a major challenge to Sunder.  After the Blackguard lands three hits on the mace (39 damage) he finally gives up on trying (one more hit wouldn't do it either in this example) and the combat ends normally.  As the battle ends the magically enhanced heavy mace is down to 21 hitpoint after getting beat up badly but the adamantine greatsword.  What happens with the Greater Magic Weapon spell ends is where Oma and I strongly disagree:

Me:  The mace as 39 points of damage done to it and is at 21 hp.  With the enchantment up it can have 60 hp but when the spell ends it "gives back" the +40 hp which drops the item below zero hitpoints and the mace finally falls apart due to the damage it took during the battle.

Oma:  The mace has 21 hit point after taking 39 damage from its magically enhanced 60 hitpoints.  The spell ends and the extra hardness goes away (this happens in mine as well but I left it out) as does the one hitpoint above normal that the mace gained.  The mace is still good as new despite being smacked three times by the adamantine greatsword.

The difference between these two scenarios is huge and should be obvious.  I'll say enhancement boost hitpoints for the item just like an increased CON score would boost a character's hitpoint.  Oma says the enhancement gives the item temporary hitpoints which are lost first before the actual item is affected.  One MAJOR problem with Oma's thought is that if an enhancement bonus just give temporary hitpoints to the item then any damage a permanent magic item takes can NOT be repaired unless it only increases the item's hitpoint to its base level.  This means that if a +4 Heavy Mace was used in the previous example it can NOT be repaired using Oma's idea of what the enhancement hitpoints means but under my idea it can be repaired back up to the 60 hitpoints it has when perfectly good.
I think you just said something which was supposed to mean exactly the same as what has just been said...

No Fred, Oma012 is basically saying the exact opposite of what I'm saying.  While I realize objects do NOT have CON scores I'm saying that when your magically enhanced item gets the crap beat out of it (although the higher hardness prevents a lot of damage) it may just fall apart when the magic that was holding it together ends.  Oma is saying that in that same situation the item could still be in pristine condition once the magic ends despite taking damage.

Let's say you start with a heavy mace (hardness 10, hp 20) then get a high level cleric to cast Greater Magic Weapon on it giving it a +4 enhancement bonus (+8 hardness, +40 hp) giving in a net hardness 18 and 60 hp while the enchancement is active.  The guy wielding this weapon then encounters that sleezy, sunder happy Blackguard and his +2 Adamantine Greatsword.  We'll say damage is 2d6+6 (13) for this example.  Now the Blackguard's weapon usually makes very short work of any weapon the opponent may wield (ignores hardness ..."" have="" 5="" or="" 10="" hp="" as="" a="" base="" but="" here="" that="" heavy="" mace="" is="" going="" to="" be="" major="" challenge="" sunder="" after="" the="" blackguard="" lands="" three="" hits="" on="" 39="" damage="" he="" finally="" gives="" up="" trying="" one="" more="" hit="" wouldn="" t="" do="" it="" either="" in="" this="" example="" combat="" ends="" normally="" battle="" magically="" enhanced="" down="" 21="" hitpoint="" getting="" beat="" badly="" adamantine="" greatsword="" what="" happens="" with="" greater="" magic="" weapon="" spell="" where="" oma="" i="" strongly="" disagree:="" br="">
Me:  The mace as 39 points of damage done to it and is at 21 hp.  With the enchantment up it can have 60 hp but when the spell ends it "gives back" the +40 hp which drops the item below zero hitpoints and the mace finally falls apart due to the damage it took during the battle.

Oma:  The mace has 21 hit point after taking 39 damage from its magically enhanced 60 hitpoints.  The spell ends and the extra hardness goes away (this happens in mine as well but I left it out) as does the one hitpoint above normal that the mace gained.  The mace is still good as new despite being smacked three times by the adamantine greatsword.

The difference between these two scenarios is huge and should be obvious.  I'll say enhancement boost hitpoints for the item just like an increased CON score would boost a character's hitpoint.  Oma says the enhancement gives the item temporary hitpoints which are lost first before the actual item is affected.  One MAJOR problem with Oma's thought is that if an enhancement bonus just give temporary hitpoints to the item then any damage a permanent magic item takes can NOT be repaired unless it only increases the item's hitpoint to its base level.  This means that if a +4 Heavy Mace was used in the previous example it can NOT be repaired using Oma's idea of what the enhancement hitpoints means but under my idea it can be repaired back up to the 60 hitpoints it has when perfectly good.

but is the same logic with a undead with psionic vigor

the unded maybe have 123 hp but with the psionic vigor he can gain another 110 temporal hit points then he fight agan a barbarian that hit him for 100 damages (a very powerfull strike ) then the undead stay in 133 hps and in her turn he kill the barbarian with a power and the combat end then at the end of the psionic vigor power the undead hp still are 123 HP despite the powerful strike he was taken time ago, he was beaten for 100 damage but the undead are unharmed and at her full HP

is the same with the weapon maybe was beaten but only the magic force that involves the weapon was damaged and maybe the weapon have littles dents that do not count as damage
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma012, perhaps you would address the line I have in bold letters.  The one that says that if the hitpoints gained from magical enhancement are temporary hitpoints you will not be able to repair them.  It may not be an issue when you just cast Magic Weapon on the weapon later and would presumably get a brand new set of temporary hitpoint but it would be a big deal on a permanent magic item.

When you use a spell to give an item an enhancement bonus you are NOT giving it an increase in hardness or hitpoint.  It is the game rules that are providing those benefits (although the spell could remind of them) and when the rule no longer applies you need to take away the benefit of those rules.

Oh one more thing Oma, when you decide to make examples PLEASE try to pull them out of the core rulebooks (PHB, DMG, MM) instead of using other sources that may not be available.  It is so much easier to correct your mistakes when the information is readily available instead of trying to find things from places I've never seen before.
Oma012, perhaps you would address the line I have in bold letters.  The one that says that if the hitpoints gained from magical enhancement are temporary hitpoints you will not be able to repair them.  It may not be an issue when you just cast Magic Weapon on the weapon later and would presumably get a brand new set of temporary hitpoint but it would be a big deal on a permanent magic item.

When you use a spell to give an item an enhancement bonus you are NOT giving it an increase in hardness or hitpoint.  It is the game rules that are providing those benefits (although the spell could remind of them) and when the rule no longer applies you need to take away the benefit of those rules.

Oh one more thing Oma, when you decide to make examples PLEASE try to pull them out of the core rulebooks (PHB, DMG, MM) instead of using other sources that may not be available.  It is so much easier to correct your mistakes when the information is readily available instead of trying to find things from places I've never seen before.

the rules dont say what happen in this case the same with a dispelled magic weapon/armor or a magic weapon and armor in an antimagic field but the point is that like in the case of the undead and the damage or how you can explain what happen with the overpower strike that was taken be the undead in her body and the fact that the undead are in full HP at the end of the power, maybe you can say that the undead are harmed but still her current HP are full like in the case of the sword.

and psionic are core look the SRD and the point is how thing can take damage and be unharmed in D&D, very available for all in internet
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

This is a Reversal:



Due to conflicting ideas on what would/should happen to an item once its temporary magical enhancement wears off I now will say that you will not get an increase to item hitpoints while under the affect of the enhancement.  If hp and hardness must go together then you will not see the item get any increase there either.

Sorry for wasting anyone's time beyond my own but because I do not want to get into an extended discussion on what should happen when a temporary enhancement ends it will be far safer and easier just to say that the item doesn't get any bonus hitpoints or hardness if hp and hardness must go together.

Oma, you should note that Vigor explicitly states gaining TEMPORARY hitpoints.  I thought we went over the difference between temporary hitpoints and the hitpoints the rules may temporarily give you with other things.  Here we were looking at a temporary magical enhancement which the rules would then say give additional hitpoints and hardness; we are not looking at getting temporary hitpoints.  There probably ARE effects that should give an item temporary hitpoints but granting/boosting it's enhancement bonus is not one of them.  When it comes to a targetted Dispel Magic against a permanent item or the effects of an Anti-Magic field I'll just point out that there is a big difference between a "surpressed" effect and a "removed" effect; a +4 weapon that is surpressed may not get the bonus to attack/damage but I'd say it probably continues to hold the item together better.
 

This is a Reversal:



Due to conflicting ideas on what would/should happen to an item once its temporary magical enhancement wears off I now will say that you will not get an increase to item hitpoints while under the affect of the enhancement.  If hp and hardness must go together then you will not see the item get any increase there either.

Sorry for wasting anyone's time beyond my own but because I do not want to get into an extended discussion on what should happen when a temporary enhancement ends it will be far safer and easier just to say that the item doesn't get any bonus hitpoints or hardness if hp and hardness must go together.

Oma, you should note that Vigor explicitly states gaining TEMPORARY hitpoints.  I thought we went over the difference between temporary hitpoints and the hitpoints the rules may temporarily give you with other things.  Here we were looking at a temporary magical enhancement which the rules would then say give additional hitpoints and hardness; we are not looking at getting temporary hitpoints.  There probably ARE effects that should give an item temporary hitpoints but granting/boosting it's enhancement bonus is not one of them.  When it comes to a targetted Dispel Magic against a permanent item or the effects of an Anti-Magic field I'll just point out that there is a big difference between a "surpressed" effect and a "removed" effect; a +4 weapon that is surpressed may not get the bonus to attack/damage but I'd say it probably continues to hold the item together better.
 

Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. (like with magic weapon) They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls.


Hardness and Hit Points: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck. Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points.


Now what happen in dispel magic and antimagic field

dispel

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, ALL the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds (like the Hardness and Hit Points), after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this

Antimagic field
"while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that)"

now this make a magic item become a non-magical item the same that happen when you cast magic weapon in a sword and the spell end.

The magic weapon gain "temporal" Hardness and Hit Points while magic then gain temporal hit points and work like that.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Ok fine.  When hit by Dispel Magic or while sitting in an AMF a normally magic sword is going to be rendered powerless.  When is loses its enhancement bonuses it will be just like if it lost ones it had temporarily gained through some kind of Magic Weapon spell.

Oma, you still need to learn that there is a BIG difference between "temporary hitpoints" and hitpoints that you may gain through OTHER temporary effect.  Do you remember the big mess you got into trying to tell everyone that a temporary change increase in CON would then give you temporary hitpoints which would be lost first?  There is nothing that would indicate a weapon gains "temporary hitpoints" from an enhancement bonus.  You still need to answer this question based on how you believe an enhancement's hitpoints work:

Can a magic weapon be repaired and if so how far?  Please use the +4 Heavy Mace that has been struck for 39 points of damage if you make an example.
 
Ok fine.  When hit by Dispel Magic or while sitting in an AMF a normally magic sword is going to be rendered powerless.  When is loses its enhancement bonuses it will be just like if it lost ones it had temporarily gained through some kind of Magic Weapon spell.

Oma, you still need to learn that there is a BIG difference between "temporary hitpoints" and hitpoints that you may gain through OTHER temporary effect.  Do you remember the big mess you got into trying to tell everyone that a temporary change increase in CON would then give you temporary hitpoints which would be lost first?  There is nothing that would indicate a weapon gains "temporary hitpoints" from an enhancement bonus.  You still need to answer this question based on how you believe an enhancement's hitpoints work:

Can a magic weapon be repaired and if so how far?  Please use the +4 Heavy Mace that has been struck for 39 points of damage if you make an example.
 

I was  acknowledge my error (why no one say my "look the rule X in the book X pag X or in D&D glossary in X section" would have been quicke)and in this case is obvious that not is a CON boost then in your example

the weapon was damaged while was magical then all the damage going to the temporal hit points of the weapon then at the end of the spell the weapon remain at her full hitpoins because the damage don't overcome the temporal hitpoins, maybe you should say how is possible if the weapon was damaged while the combat, how is unharmed, then I say "is the same in the case of the undead with vigor" (i used as example the Psionic vigor because provides more temporal HP) a think perfectly normal in the world of D&D.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
...
Can a magic weapon be repaired and if so how far?  Please use the +4 Heavy Mace that has been struck for 39 points of damage if you make an example.
 

I was  acknowledge my error (why no one say my "look the rule X in the book X pag X or in D&D glossary in X section" would have been quicke)and in this case is obvious that not is a CON boost then in your example

the weapon was damaged while was magical then all the damage going to the temporal hit points of the weapon then at the end of the spell the weapon remain at her full hitpoins because the damage don't overcome the temporal hitpoins, maybe you should say how is possible if the weapon was damaged while the combat, how is unharmed, then I say "is the same in the case of the undead with vigor" (i used as example the Psionic vigor because provides more temporal HP) a think perfectly normal in the world of D&D.


I'm not sure what error you acknowledged.  As for why I don't say "look a rule X in book Y on page Z" it is because I don't happen to have all the books at hand but remember 95% of what they say well enough to give answers.  I will go to the SRD from time to time and often do post links back to the relevent sections.

You still have not responded to my question on repairing a magic item.  If you say a Heavy Mace with Greater Magic Weapon giving it a +4 bonus has 18 hardness and 60 hitpoint gets damaged down to 21 hp remaining before the spell expires at which time it stays at its "normal" 20 hitpoints what happens to a +4 Heavy Mace (a "permanent" magic item) that has the same basic stats as the Heavy Mace with Greater Magic Weapon cast on it after it's been bashed down to 21 hitpoints?  You can't "heal" temporary hitpoints so does that mean the permanent item can NOT be repaired back up to 60 hp?  That normal mace which you say is undamaged once the spell in can just have the spell recast on it giving it 60 hp again but that doesn't work for the +4 mace.
Oma, you're wrong.  Stop trying to argue an untenable position.  If you want it to be like that in your games, fine.  But stop trying to muck things up for people who actually attempt to play by the rules.  Kthxbai.
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I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
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...
Can a magic weapon be repaired and if so how far?  Please use the +4 Heavy Mace that has been struck for 39 points of damage if you make an example.
 

I was  acknowledge my error (why no one say my "look the rule X in the book X pag X or in D&D glossary in X section" would have been quicke)and in this case is obvious that not is a CON boost then in your example

the weapon was damaged while was magical then all the damage going to the temporal hit points of the weapon then at the end of the spell the weapon remain at her full hitpoins because the damage don't overcome the temporal hitpoins, maybe you should say how is possible if the weapon was damaged while the combat, how is unharmed, then I say "is the same in the case of the undead with vigor" (i used as example the Psionic vigor because provides more temporal HP) a think perfectly normal in the world of D&D.


I'm not sure what error you acknowledged.  As for why I don't say "look a rule X in book Y on page Z" it is because I don't happen to have all the books at hand but remember 95% of what they say well enough to give answers.  I will go to the SRD from time to time and often do post links back to the relevent sections.

You still have not responded to my question on repairing a magic item.  If you say a Heavy Mace with Greater Magic Weapon giving it a +4 bonus has 18 hardness and 60 hitpoint gets damaged down to 21 hp remaining before the spell expires at which time it stays at its "normal" 20 hitpoints what happens to a +4 Heavy Mace (a "permanent" magic item) that has the same basic stats as the Heavy Mace with Greater Magic Weapon cast on it after it's been bashed down to 21 hitpoints?  You can't "heal" temporary hitpoints so does that mean the permanent item can NOT be repaired back up to 60 hp?  That normal mace which you say is undamaged once the spell in can just have the spell recast on it giving it 60 hp again but that doesn't work for the +4 mace.

then in the same way of your example a epic magic weapon +40 (attack/damage) that have 420 hps and is damaged for only 30 damages (you maybe only look a scratch in the weapon) and then is dispelled explodes in your hands? because the rules say that if you dont have the enhancement bonus you dont have the extra hardness and HP and the weapon only have 20 HP and 30 damages

from the RC

Magic
Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the
hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield, and
10 to the item’s hit points.

then if a spell let enhancement bonus to a weapon then the spell let to the weapon extra hardness and hit points temporarily.

then the most obvious resolution is that the hit points are temporary hit points and work like the rules say.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
You still haven't answered the question about repairing a magic weapon Oma.

There is also NOTHING that says that if a game rule changes something temporarily and that thing alters hitpoint that those hitpoints are automatically "temporary hitpoint."  Just look at the hp gained if your CON temporarily is increased.  How many times to we need to point out that just getting hitpoints temporarily is NOT the same as getting temporary hitpoints?

For what it's worth, and with Oma it is nothing, I'm not going to change the hitpoints of a permanent magic item that happens to be getting surpressed by a targetted Dispel Magic (which shouldn't touch a +40 sword) or an AMF (which is insanely powerful because of how absolute it is at such a relatively low level.)  I don't seem to remember bringing EPIC magic items into this discussion at any time.
You still haven't answered the question about repairing a magic weapon Oma.

There is also NOTHING that says that if a game rule changes something temporarily and that thing alters hitpoint that those hitpoints are automatically "temporary hitpoint."  Just look at the hp gained if your CON temporarily is increased.  How many times to we need to point out that just getting hitpoints temporarily is NOT the same as getting temporary hitpoints?

For what it's worth, and with Oma it is nothing, I'm not going to change the hitpoints of a permanent magic item that happens to be getting surpressed by a targetted Dispel Magic (which shouldn't touch a +40 sword) or an AMF (which is insanely powerful because of how absolute it is at such a relatively low level.)  I don't seem to remember bringing EPIC magic items into this discussion at any time.

not for objects but for characters

Hit Points
A measure of a character's health or an object's integrity. Damage decreases current hit points, and lost hit points return with healing or natural recovery. A character's hit point total increases permanently with additional experience and/or permanent increases in Constitution, or temporarily through the use of various special abilities, spells, magic items, or magical effects (see temporary hit points and effective hit point increase).

Temporal Hit Points
Hit points gained for a limited time through certain spells (such as aid) and magical effects. When a character with temporary hit points is dealt damage, deduct the damage from temporary hit points first, then deduct any remaining damage (if any) to the character's actual (nontemporary) hit points. Temporary hit points can cause a character's hit point total to exceed its normal maximum.

Then the more the most similar rule say that this are temporal hit poins.

And for your question again is the same of what happen with a magical weapon whitn 420 Hps and 30 damages (what kind of damage have the weapon???) if the weapon as you say is dispelled the weapon are in -10 HP then if you look the weapon while are magic its look completely destroyed and only united by magic?
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, you do a great job avoiding direct questions and then trying to change the topic.  Are you a politician who is seeking office or re-election?

Since you are not answering my damaged weapon question let me add a little something to it.  Under your idea if that Heavy Mace enchanted to +4 by Greater Magic Weapon took 52 points of damage (another hit in my example) it would be reduced to 8 hitpoints and after the spell effect wears off it will still have 8 hitpoint.  Now the owner can have the weapon repaired bringing it back up to the 20 hitpoints it has undamaged at which point you'll tell me that getting +4 from a Greater Weapon spell would give it +40 hitpoint.  If instead of using a Heavy Mace that gained +4 because of the Greater Magic Weapon spell we use a +4 Heavy Mace (I don't know how to write this out so you can't find some way to argue with it but I'm saying a permanent +4 mace valued at 32312 gp vs. a heavy mace boosted via GMW to +4.) and that item is reduced to 8 hitpoint.  Now how much of that damage can be repaired?  If the 40 hitpoints the +4 enhancement grants are all temporary hp then you could only repair the +4 mace to 20 hitpoints instead of 60.

You apparently do not recognize the difference between hitpoint gained through game rules and those gained "through certain spells and magical effects."  The Magic Weapon spell DOES NOT give an item hitpoints; it gives the item an enhancement bonus and then the game rules give it +10 hitpoints for each +1 enhancement bonus.  If the MW spell said it gave an item +10 temporary hitpoints, along with spelling out other benefits, I couldn't (and wouldn't) argue with you at all but that is NOT what the spell says it does.  It is your failure to understand these differences which makes it so that so many on these board ignore you and there are many times I think about joining them.  I keep trying to educate you Oma but apparently nothing ever sinks in; you may notice that some of your comments go without further comment because they happen to be right but then you get into situations like this where you can not be reasoned with.
Oma, you do a great job avoiding direct questions and then trying to change the topic.  Are you a politician who is seeking office or re-election?

Since you are not answering my damaged weapon question let me add a little something to it.  Under your idea if that Heavy Mace enchanted to +4 by Greater Magic Weapon took 52 points of damage (another hit in my example) it would be reduced to 8 hitpoints and after the spell effect wears off it will still have 8 hitpoint.  Now the owner can have the weapon repaired bringing it back up to the 20 hitpoints it has undamaged at which point you'll tell me that getting +4 from a Greater Weapon spell would give it +40 hitpoint.  If instead of using a Heavy Mace that gained +4 because of the Greater Magic Weapon spell we use a +4 Heavy Mace (I don't know how to write this out so you can't find some way to argue with it but I'm saying a permanent +4 mace valued at 32312 gp vs. a heavy mace boosted via GMW to +4.) and that item is reduced to 8 hitpoint.  Now how much of that damage can be repaired?  If the 40 hitpoints the +4 enhancement grants are all temporary hp then you could only repair the +4 mace to 20 hitpoints instead of 60.

You apparently do not recognize the difference between hitpoint gained through game rules and those gained "through certain spells and magical effects."  The Magic Weapon spell DOES NOT give an item hitpoints; it gives the item an enhancement bonus and then the game rules give it +10 hitpoints for each +1 enhancement bonus.  If the MW spell said it gave an item +10 temporary hitpoints, along with spelling out other benefits, I couldn't (and wouldn't) argue with you at all but that is NOT what the spell says it does.  It is your failure to understand these differences which makes it so that so many on these board ignore you and there are many times I think about joining them.  I keep trying to educate you Oma but apparently nothing ever sinks in; you may notice that some of your comments go without further comment because they happen to be right but then you get into situations like this where you can not be reasoned with.

you do the same saying nothing again the example of the undead or the permanet MG little damaged and the dispelled.

now about your good point of healing temporal hit points, the rules say about Objects.

HIT POINTS
An object’s hit point total depends on what it’s made of and
how big it is (see the tables). Very large objects can have
separate hit point totals for different sections.

then her hit points are based in the material and the size.

Now about magic

Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the
hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield, and
10 to the item’s hit points.

then the weapon have +((X)(2)) hardness and +((X)(10)) HP WHILE have enhancement of X

now craft only repair the mundane part of the magical weapon while you need repair damage spells to repair the other damage in the wepon then is probably that a magical protective force encloses the weapon and can be damaged too then when you go to a permanet magical weapon to be repaired the mage only need to repair the magical force because the mundane part be unharmed

as example your weapon with 20+40 Hps was damaged for 39 and the all the damages disrupt almost all the magical protective force of the weapon and in the case of a powerfull permanet wepon with 30 damages that is dispelled only destroy the magical protective force of the weapon and making it mundane

and now here come other question, what happen whit a permanet magical weapon is dispelled???
the rules say that a dispelled weapon lose all, now if you permanet magical weapon +4 take 10 damages and have 60 HP and is dispelled and return to 20 mundane HP when return her magical power the weapon gain again 40 HP and become full??? or in the couter part the mundane part take the damage first??? and the magical protective force holds together the weapon destroyed???? then all can see your weapon totally breaken and say is time to dispell magic.

the more correct is doing a damage equivalence between the magical and the mundane

as example in your weapon if the magic goes her current Hit poins will be 7 (35%)
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, you do a great job avoiding direct questions and then trying to change the topic.

you do the same saying nothing again the example of the undead or the permanet MG little damaged and the dispelled.

Interesting.  What direct questions am I avoiding?  If you are asking some I am probably not the only one who doesn't see them; heck, a lot of the time I can barely understand what you are trying to say at all.

As for your Undead with hitpoints from the psionic power Vigor that has absolutely NOTHING to do with this overall discussion.  Vigor explicitly states that it grants TEMPORARY HITPOINTS which the rule clearly state are lost first; I have a hard time finding anything that directly grants hitpoint that doesn't explicitly say it grants temporary hitpoints.

What is a permanent MG?  I believe I have answered the question on what I think would happen to a permanent magic item that has been damaged and then "dispelled" and it varies.  If you want to say that a supressed magic item becomes completely mundane then I will say the damage can cause the item to fall apart as there is no magic holding it together anymore.  While it may not be the Rule As Written I'm more inclided to allow a surpressed magic item to retain its hitpoints that it would be at were the magic not being surpressed.

Now on to other things and another big old Wall of Text.
...
then the weapon have +((X)(2)) hardness and +((X)(10)) HP WHILE have enhancement of X


Interesting...  I see nothing about "temporary" hitpoints there so I assume the +10X hitpoints while it has a +X enhancement is just like the CONmodifierxLevel hitpoints most creatures get while they have a given CON score.
now craft only repair the mundane part of the magical weapon while you need repair damage spells to repair the other damage in the wepon then is probably that a magical protective force encloses the weapon and can be damaged too then when you go to a permanet magical weapon to be repaired the mage only need to repair the magical force because the mundane part be unharmed

as example your weapon with 20+40 Hps was damaged for 39 and the all the damages disrupt almost all the magical protective force of the weapon and in the case of a powerfull permanet wepon with 30 damages that is dispelled only destroy the magical protective force of the weapon and making it mundane

 Finally!!  The little problem here is that there is nothing that says you need to be able to work any kind of magic to repair a magic item.  I also don't remember seeing a system where a spellcaster can "repair magic" which you imply needs to be done.
and now here come other question, what happen whit a permanet magical weapon is dispelled???
the rules say that a dispelled weapon lose all, now if you permanet magical weapon +4 take 10 damages and have 60 HP and is dispelled and return to 20 mundane HP when return her magical power the weapon gain again 40 HP and become full??? or in the couter part the mundane part take the damage first??? and the magical protective force holds together the weapon destroyed???? then all can see your weapon totally breaken and say is time to dispell magic.

the more correct is doing a damage equivalence between the magical and the mundane

as example in your weapon if the magic goes her current Hit poins will be 7 (35%)

Here I believe the RAW is that if you lose the enhancement you lose all the hitpoints that enhancement provides.  This means that if your +4 weapon is dispelled (+0 enhancement bonus) it effectively takes 40 points of damage from that and if it had previously taken damage it may fall apart.  I will say that is ever consistent with how magic is portrayed in many settings; a powerful magic item may be weakened by physical attacks but when the magic that binds the item is disrupted the whole thing falls apart.  This make a lot more sense then saying the item just becomes a mundane item that may be completely undamaged and is FAR easier then trying to track two seperate hitpoint totals for a given item.


Oma, you do a great job avoiding direct questions and then trying to change the topic.

you do the same saying nothing again the example of the undead or the permanet MG little damaged and the dispelled.

Interesting.  What direct questions am I avoiding?  If you are asking some I am probably not the only one who doesn't see them; heck, a lot of the time I can barely understand what you are trying to say at all.

As for your Undead with hitpoints from the psionic power Vigor that has absolutely NOTHING to do with this overall discussion.  Vigor explicitly states that it grants TEMPORARY HITPOINTS which the rule clearly state are lost first; I have a hard time finding anything that directly grants hitpoint that doesn't explicitly say it grants temporary hitpoints.

What is a permanent MG?  I believe I have answered the question on what I think would happen to a permanent magic item that has been damaged and then "dispelled" and it varies.  If you want to say that a supressed magic item becomes completely mundane then I will say the damage can cause the item to fall apart as there is no magic holding it together anymore.  While it may not be the Rule As Written I'm more inclided to allow a surpressed magic item to retain its hitpoints that it would be at were the magic not being surpressed.

Now on to other things and another big old Wall of Text.
...
then the weapon have +((X)(2)) hardness and +((X)(10)) HP WHILE have enhancement of X


Interesting...  I see nothing about "temporary" hitpoints there so I assume the +10X hitpoints while it has a +X enhancement is just like the CONmodifierxLevel hitpoints most creatures get while they have a given CON score.
now craft only repair the mundane part of the magical weapon while you need repair damage spells to repair the other damage in the wepon then is probably that a magical protective force encloses the weapon and can be damaged too then when you go to a permanet magical weapon to be repaired the mage only need to repair the magical force because the mundane part be unharmed

as example your weapon with 20+40 Hps was damaged for 39 and the all the damages disrupt almost all the magical protective force of the weapon and in the case of a powerfull permanet wepon with 30 damages that is dispelled only destroy the magical protective force of the weapon and making it mundane

 Finally!!  The little problem here is that there is nothing that says you need to be able to work any kind of magic to repair a magic item.  I also don't remember seeing a system where a spellcaster can "repair magic" which you imply needs to be done.
and now here come other question, what happen whit a permanet magical weapon is dispelled???
the rules say that a dispelled weapon lose all, now if you permanet magical weapon +4 take 10 damages and have 60 HP and is dispelled and return to 20 mundane HP when return her magical power the weapon gain again 40 HP and become full??? or in the couter part the mundane part take the damage first??? and the magical protective force holds together the weapon destroyed???? then all can see your weapon totally breaken and say is time to dispell magic.

the more correct is doing a damage equivalence between the magical and the mundane

as example in your weapon if the magic goes her current Hit poins will be 7 (35%)

Here I believe the RAW is that if you lose the enhancement you lose all the hitpoints that enhancement provides.  This means that if your +4 weapon is dispelled (+0 enhancement bonus) it effectively takes 40 points of damage from that and if it had previously taken damage it may fall apart.  I will say that is ever consistent with how magic is portrayed in many settings; a powerful magic item may be weakened by physical attacks but when the magic that binds the item is disrupted the whole thing falls apart.  This make a lot more sense then saying the item just becomes a mundane item that may be completely undamaged and is FAR easier then trying to track two seperate hitpoint totals for a given item.



1- the rules say that the items HP is based in her material and size ONLY

2- the rules say that an item with magical enhancement add more HP and hardness based in the enhancement bonus to the item and a dispelled weapon don't have ANY then don't have the extra HP and hardness as you say.

3- the craft skill and the craft magical weapons and armors feat.

4-No rule say that a object can take damage in this way the only rule in D&D say that something like this say that this only happens with a CON boost and in this case don't exist it, the rules say too that all other things are temporal HP but this rules is for creatures not objects but again you are saying that if you have a damaged weapon all person maybe see a destroyed sword holds together with magic only

5-how you repair a magic weapon with 70 of HP, an enhancement bonus of +5 and 69 damages without magic???
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
 1- the rules say that the items HP is based in her material and size ONLY

2- the rules say that an item with magical enhancement add more HP and hardness based in the enhancement bonus to the item and a dispelled weapon don't have ANY then don't have the extra HP and hardness as you say.

3- the craft skill and the craft magical weapons and armors feat.

4-No rule say that a object can take damage in this way the only rule in D&D say that something like this say that this only happens with a CON boost and in this case don't exist it, the rules say too that all other things are temporal HP but this rules is for creatures not objects but again you are saying that if you have a damaged weapon all person maybe see a destroyed sword holds together with magic only

5-how you repair a magic weapon with 70 of HP, an enhancement bonus of +5 and 69 damages without magic???


1.  Then why would magic change an item's hitpoints?  Could it be because the magic some how makes the material more resilient but when the magic leaves so does all that added duribility?

2.  Haven't I already agreed that the RAW would have an item stripped of all magic enhancement lose its extra hardness and hitpoints?

3.  What is this regarding?  How you need the craft skill (or something to replicate that) to make an item to enchant and then how you would need the craft feat to enhance the item?  Looking a the craft skill it looks to me like it should easily be able to repair a damaged item.  Looking at the Craft Magic Arms And Armor feat I see that it can be used to "mend a broken item if it is one you could make."  I'll just point out that a "broken" item doesn't function while a "damaged" item will still work at 100% until it too becomes broken.

4.  Who said the object is taking damage when the enhancement is removed?  I may have said it is effectively taking damage but that is because I'm just removing the extra hitpoint the enhancement provided.  With no enhancement there are no hitpoints so they are removed.  It is just like a when a creature's CON score drops; it doesn't actually take damage but because of the lost CON it effectively looks like it's taken damage because now it has fewer hitpoints.

5.  You would use the Craft skill.  Most likely you'll be targetting DC 20 for the masterwork component.  I'm sure we can argue about the cost of the repair (one fifth the underlying item or one fifth of the market value) and the time it takes but it is clear to me that the craft skill is all you would need to repair a damaged item.  If the item is actually broken then you would need the Craft feat to restore the item. 
 1- the rules say that the items HP is based in her material and size ONLY

2- the rules say that an item with magical enhancement add more HP and hardness based in the enhancement bonus to the item and a dispelled weapon don't have ANY then don't have the extra HP and hardness as you say.

3- the craft skill and the craft magical weapons and armors feat.

4-No rule say that a object can take damage in this way the only rule in D&D say that something like this say that this only happens with a CON boost and in this case don't exist it, the rules say too that all other things are temporal HP but this rules is for creatures not objects but again you are saying that if you have a damaged weapon all person maybe see a destroyed sword holds together with magic only

5-how you repair a magic weapon with 70 of HP, an enhancement bonus of +5 and 69 damages without magic???


1.  Then why would magic change an item's hitpoints?  Could it be because the magic some how makes the material more resilient but when the magic leaves so does all that added duribility?

2.  Haven't I already agreed that the RAW would have an item stripped of all magic enhancement lose its extra hardness and hitpoints?

3.  What is this regarding?  How you need the craft skill (or something to replicate that) to make an item to enchant and then how you would need the craft feat to enhance the item?  Looking a the craft skill it looks to me like it should easily be able to repair a damaged item.  Looking at the Craft Magic Arms And Armor feat I see that it can be used to "mend a broken item if it is one you could make."  I'll just point out that a "broken" item doesn't function while a "damaged" item will still work at 100% until it too becomes broken.

4.  Who said the object is taking damage when the enhancement is removed?  I may have said it is effectively taking damage but that is because I'm just removing the extra hitpoint the enhancement provided.  With no enhancement there are no hitpoints so they are removed.  It is just like a when a creature's CON score drops; it doesn't actually take damage but because of the lost CON it effectively looks like it's taken damage because now it has fewer hitpoints.

5.  You would use the Craft skill.  Most likely you'll be targetting DC 20 for the masterwork component.  I'm sure we can argue about the cost of the repair (one fifth the underlying item or one fifth of the market value) and the time it takes but it is clear to me that the craft skill is all you would need to repair a damaged item.  If the item is actually broken then you would need the Craft feat to restore the item. 

1- ok now you are saying that if a magical weapon +5 and 20 HPs take 19 damages and is dispelled then the weapon only stay in 1 HP and maybe look almost destroyed and then when recover the magic the weapon auto repair itself???

2-you was saying that you think that the weapon should remain with her extra HP while dispelled.

3- The craft skill can't make magic weapons then can't be used to repair the magic weapon only the mundane weapon, Craft Magica Arms and Armor only repair fully broken weapons, repair damage spells only cure Constructs.

4- again the rules say that while the weapon have enhancement bonus the weapon have extra HP and hardness the RC say it about items and the magic never say that need be permanent only if the weapon have it, then objects dont have CON but can have enhansement bonus while are under the effect of a spell or a permanet magic force then this will considered as temporal Hit Poins.

5- Sorry you can't use the craft skill because only repair weapon maded whit this skill and only mundane weapon can be created with craft.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
1- ok now you are saying that if a magical weapon +5 and 20 HPs take 19 damages and is dispelled then the weapon only stay in 1 HP and maybe look almost destroyed and then when recover the magic the weapon auto repair itself???

2-you was saying that you think that the weapon should remain with her extra HP while dispelled.

3- The craft skill can't make magic weapons then can't be used to repair the magic weapon only the mundane weapon, Craft Magica Arms and Armor only repair fully broken weapons, repair damage spells only cure Constructs.

4- again the rules say that while the weapon have enhancement bonus the weapon have extra HP and hardness the RC say it about items and the magic never say that need be permanent only if the weapon have it, then objects dont have CON but can have enhansement bonus while are under the effect of a spell or a permanet magic force then this will considered as temporal Hit Poins.

5- Sorry you can't use the craft skill because only repair weapon maded whit this skill and only mundane weapon can be created with craft.


1.  Don't see where this is coming from unless it is a new set of questions.  I view a magic weapon as being built or imbued with some magically enhanced material; this is why you get the additional hardness and hitpoints.  If that magic is removed then all of those added properties are also removed.

I'll also say that if your +5 weapon only has 20 hitpoint is doesn't need to take anymore damage to fall apart if it loses it's +5.  Remove the +5 and you remove 50 hitpoints as well which is more then enough to destroy the item.

2.  I believe the RAW is that the hp and hardness go when the enchantment goes. The "nice guy" in me may allow a surpressed item to keep the hp as the enhancement automatically comes back after the surpression ends.  Giving the way this is going I'm leaning further away from that.

3.  You're right, the craft skill does not make magic weapons.  Actually I think everything it that may be correct.  The little problem is that if craft can't repair a magic item and someone with Craft Magic Armor or Weapons can only rebuild a broken item then there is no way to repair a magic item that has been damaged.

4.    What are you trying to say and what is the RC?  I don't see where you're coming from.  The rules say a magic weapon gets extra hp and hardness based on the degree of the enhancement.  It only makes sense that if the enhancement it lost those extras also have to be paid back.  If the extra hp don't need to be paid back then why must the item's hitpoint fall back to mundane levels when the enhancement is lost?  Does this also mean that if I cast Magic Weapon on a badly damage item it will restore 10 hitpoints to it and if the total is still less then the maximum they will stay after the spell ends?  To put it another way if my mundane Heavy Mace is at 10 hp from its undamage 20 hp and I cast Magic Weapon on it does that spell repair my item by leaving hp behind after the spell ends?

5.   Really?  So what does this line from the craft skill mean?
Repairing Items

Generally, you can repair an item by making checks against the same DC that it took to make the item in the first place. The cost of repairing an item is one-fifth of the item’s price.


The craft skill may not be used to enhance the item but it was certainly used to make the item.
 
1- ok now you are saying that if a magical weapon +5 and 20 HPs take 19 damages and is dispelled then the weapon only stay in 1 HP and maybe look almost destroyed and then when recover the magic the weapon auto repair itself???

2-you was saying that you think that the weapon should remain with her extra HP while dispelled.

3- The craft skill can't make magic weapons then can't be used to repair the magic weapon only the mundane weapon, Craft Magica Arms and Armor only repair fully broken weapons, repair damage spells only cure Constructs.

4- again the rules say that while the weapon have enhancement bonus the weapon have extra HP and hardness the RC say it about items and the magic never say that need be permanent only if the weapon have it, then objects dont have CON but can have enhansement bonus while are under the effect of a spell or a permanet magic force then this will considered as temporal Hit Poins.

5- Sorry you can't use the craft skill because only repair weapon maded whit this skill and only mundane weapon can be created with craft.


1.  Don't see where this is coming from unless it is a new set of questions.  I view a magic weapon as being built or imbued with some magically enhanced material; this is why you get the additional hardness and hitpoints.  If that magic is removed then all of those added properties are also removed.

I'll also say that if your +5 weapon only has 20 hitpoint is doesn't need to take anymore damage to fall apart if it loses it's +5.  Remove the +5 and you remove 50 hitpoints as well which is more then enough to destroy the item.

2.  I believe the RAW is that the hp and hardness go when the enchantment goes. The "nice guy" in me may allow a surpressed item to keep the hp as the enhancement automatically comes back after the surpression ends.  Giving the way this is going I'm leaning further away from that.

3.  You're right, the craft skill does not make magic weapons.  Actually I think everything it that may be correct.  The little problem is that if craft can't repair a magic item and someone with Craft Magic Armor or Weapons can only rebuild a broken item then there is no way to repair a magic item that has been damaged.

4.    What are you trying to say and what is the RC?  I don't see where you're coming from.  The rules say a magic weapon gets extra hp and hardness based on the degree of the enhancement.  It only makes sense that if the enhancement it lost those extras also have to be paid back.  If the extra hp don't need to be paid back then why must the item's hitpoint fall back to mundane levels when the enhancement is lost?  Does this also mean that if I cast Magic Weapon on a badly damage item it will restore 10 hitpoints to it and if the total is still less then the maximum they will stay after the spell ends?  To put it another way if my mundane Heavy Mace is at 10 hp from its undamage 20 hp and I cast Magic Weapon on it does that spell repair my item by leaving hp behind after the spell ends?

5.   Really?  So what does this line from the craft skill mean?
Repairing Items

Generally, you can repair an item by making checks against the same DC that it took to make the item in the first place. The cost of repairing an item is one-fifth of the item’s price.


The craft skill may not be used to enhance the item but it was certainly used to make the item.
 

1- sorry but is only a mundane weapon with an unknow change in her properties but again this will work like a CON but the item Dont have CON or Temporal HP but Temporal HP can't be replenishment

2- ¬¬

3-is a mystery but i remember a spell like mending but more powerful that repair item but i don't remember it maybe is the only way or make INT your weapon and make it susceptible to Repair damage Spells.

4- Rules Compendium talk about Objects and Magic

5- Sorry but the craft make the mundane item not the Magical Item and while magic the craft can't repair it, remember that the weapon is trasmuted.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Please don't "Quick Reply" this with a quote.  All that happens is you clog up the page with redundant information.
1- sorry but is only a mundane weapon with an unknow change in her properties but again this will work like a CON but the item Dont have CON or Temporal HP but Temporal HP can't be replenishment
2- ¬¬
3-is a mystery but i remember a spell like mending but more powerful that repair item but i don't remember it maybe is the only way or make INT your weapon and make it susceptible to Repair damage Spells.

4- Rules Compendium talk about Objects and Magic

5- Sorry but the craft make the mundane item not the Magical Item and while magic the craft can't repair it, remember that the weapon is trasmuted.

1.  

3.  So the ONLY way to REPAIR a magic item is through the use of a spell a character may, or may not, have?  Oh, and a zero-level spell at that.  I'm pretty sure a master craftsman, that is one who can easily make the DC 20 of a masterwork item, can make repairs that are just as good even if they take a little bit longer.

4.  Too bad I don't own the RC.  Even so I don't see anything in your post that actually supports your position.  Oma, you should also address my question about using the Magic Weapon spell to repair a mundane weapon.

5.  Even an epic weapon is still just a weapon and that weapon may have been created by some lowly craftsman.  I'm now guessing the cost of the repair should be based on the items full market value but I still don't see why you master weaponsmith couldn't repair your magic weapon.
 
Please don't "Quick Reply" this with a quote.  All that happens is you clog up the page with redundant information.
1- sorry but is only a mundane weapon with an unknow change in her properties but again this will work like a CON but the item Dont have CON or Temporal HP but Temporal HP can't be replenishment
2- ¬¬
3-is a mystery but i remember a spell like mending but more powerful that repair item but i don't remember it maybe is the only way or make INT your weapon and make it susceptible to Repair damage Spells.

4- Rules Compendium talk about Objects and Magic

5- Sorry but the craft make the mundane item not the Magical Item and while magic the craft can't repair it, remember that the weapon is trasmuted.

1.  

3.  So the ONLY way to REPAIR a magic item is through the use of a spell a character may, or may not, have?  Oh, and a zero-level spell at that.  I'm pretty sure a master craftsman, that is one who can easily make the DC 20 of a masterwork item, can make repairs that are just as good even if they take a little bit longer.

4.  Too bad I don't own the RC.  Even so I don't see anything in your post that actually supports your position.  Oma, you should also address my question about using the Magic Weapon spell to repair a mundane weapon.

5.  Even an epic weapon is still just a weapon and that weapon may have been created by some lowly craftsman.  I'm now guessing the cost of the repair should be based on the items full market value but I still don't see why you master weaponsmith couldn't repair your magic weapon.
 

1- that the rules don't say nothing about this the spell is of trasmutation then the weapon take a unknow change in her properties now your conclution about CON boost have the same problem that my Conclution about temporal HP

2-But again the weapon not is a mundane or MW weapon remember that the weapon are trasmuted then you can only reapair with a craft a weapon that you can make and you can't make a magical weapon with craft only MW then for repair a magical weapon maybe you need work in it while stay in an antimagic field

3-??? ok the book say about Objects 2 things

A) Objects HP and Herdness are based in her material and size

B) Objects with a magic enhancement ADD +2 of hardness and +10 HP for each enhancement bonus

the this rule make a mundane weapon under the effect of magic weapon gain the hardness and the HP temporaly (maybe in this case it work like temporal HP)

4- ok, first a weaponsmith can't make magical weapon then can't repair a magical weapon, remember that was trasmuted, is like say that weaponsmith can repair flesh sword because the MW weapon that he was made was trasmuted to flesh

the special rule in the magic item section say this


REPAIRING MAGIC ITEMS

Some magic items take damage over the course of an adventure. It costs no more to repair a magic item with the Craft skill than it does to repair its nonmagical counterpart. The make whole spell also repairs a damaged—but not completely broken—magic item.


with this is more easy say that the weapon maybe is the same and when a magical weapon lose her magic is more realistic use % of damage because you can only repair it at her full state (you dont repair HP) then you always use 20+X Gps in the reparation of the MW weapon


As example the weaponsmith have two weapon a mundane and a magical weapon with the same remain HP (1 HP) and he take the same time and materials to repair both while one weapon have only 20 hps and the onther 60.


then in you example the weapon maybe remain in 7 Hps

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.


Quoting you for ironies sake


     Making magic items doesn't require the crafting skill to make the item in question, only that the item, such as a Master Worked Sword be provided.

The maker of a Magic sword doesn't make the weapon himself, nor is the Craft Magic Arms and Armor required to make the Sword, any mundane Master Worked item can be used.

Damage done to a magic item is mundane damage and can be done with mundane means, just as the orriginal item is made with mundane means. This would be the same as suggesting that HP damage to a person with Con/hp buffs on cannot be cured with mundane healing, only magical healing. As per the following rule:

Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort.



The damage to magical items is no different then that to mundane items, and both can be repaired with non-magical means.

The rules for repairing damaged Magic items and the rule for repairing Broken magic items make this clear.

Mundane damage can be repaired using the appropriate Mundane craft Skill    :

Some magic items take damage over the course of an adventure. It costs no more to repair a magic item with the Craft skill than it does to repair its nonmagical counterpart.



The repair of a damaged (not broken) magic item is done with the Mundance Craft skill. There is no other requirements or difference in this respect then a non-magical item, otherwise the use of the Feats, Magic etc to repair would have greater costs then the non-magical counter part. As is specified in the costs to mend a Broken magic item.

You can also mend a broken magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.



A broken magic item is different because the magic has been destroyed , after the mundane item is repaired, the enchantment must then be repaired with the above costs in XP, materials and time.

This shows that the use of this feat and spells to restore magical items has an XP/Spell material/time cost, that is based from the enchantment, and for repairing a damaged (but not destroyed) item would run contrary to being the same costs as repairing a mundane item.


Also, Using spells to get a Magic item repaired would mean an additional cost over repairing it's non-magical counterpart. If the item requires spell casting to repair then that means hiring the services of a spell caster, both for casting the spell and for his daily services. Which would be an additional cost over a nonmagical item (Blacksmith charges 1 sp/day)


Quoting you for ironies sake


     Making magic items doesn't require the crafting skill to make the item in question, only that the item, such as a Master Worked Sword be provided.

The maker of a Magic sword doesn't make the weapon himself, nor is the Craft Magic Arms and Armor required to make the Sword, any mundane Master Worked item can be used.

Damage done to a magic item is mundane damage and can be done with mundane means, just as the orriginal item is made with mundane means. This would be the same as suggesting that HP damage to a person with Con/hp buffs on cannot be cured with mundane healing, only magical healing. As per the following rule:

Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort.



The damage to magical items is no different then that to mundane items, and both can be repaired with non-magical means.

The rules for repairing damaged Magic items and the rule for repairing Broken magic items make this clear.

Mundane damage can be repaired using the appropriate Mundane craft Skill    :

Some magic items take damage over the course of an adventure. It costs no more to repair a magic item with the Craft skill than it does to repair its nonmagical counterpart.



The repair of a damaged (not broken) magic item is done with the Mundance Craft skill. There is no other requirements or difference in this respect then a non-magical item, otherwise the use of the Feats, Magic etc to repair would have greater costs then the non-magical counter part. As is specified in the costs to mend a Broken magic item.

You can also mend a broken magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.



A broken magic item is different because the magic has been destroyed , after the mundane item is repaired, the enchantment must then be repaired with the above costs in XP, materials and time.

This shows that the use of this feat and spells to restore magical items has an XP/Spell material/time cost, that is based from the enchantment, and for repairing a damaged (but not destroyed) item would run contrary to being the same costs as repairing a mundane item.


Also, Using spells to get a Magic item repaired would mean an additional cost over repairing it's non-magical counterpart. If the item requires spell casting to repair then that means hiring the services of a spell caster, both for casting the spell and for his daily services. Which would be an additional cost over a nonmagical item (Blacksmith charges 1 sp/day)

the problem with this is that the weapon have HP but the reapir dont reagin HP only make it at her Full HP again and here is for what happen if the sword is Dispelled or a mundane sword are under the effect of magic weapon and take damage.

Now if the damage is mundane what happen if you have a mundane Mw Long Sword and a Magical Long Sword +10 with 1 HP both under the rules the both take the same time and money to be repaired while one sword have 10 HP and the other 60 HP and what happen if you dispell this magical weapon with 10 damages, the weapon Exproding?? or the weapon remain in 10 HP or the weapon have a equivalent HP maybe 8 (that is what most consistent to what happens when repairing).
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Thank you for presenting another viewpoint MrCustomer.  While it does a wonderful job of explaining the repair of items do you have any comment on what to do with a weapon's hitpoints when it loses any enhancement bonuses it may have had?  This seems to be the core of the "discussion" Oma and I were having with me bring up repairing an item and comparing that to healing the temporary hitpoints he claims an enhancement bonus adds.

Damage done to a magic item is mundane damage and can be done with mundane means, just as the original item is made with mundane means. This would be the same as suggesting that HP damage to a person with Con/hp buffs on cannot be cured with mundane healing, only magical healing.

I just want to point out one little problem with this.  You can restore the hitpoints gained through a CON buff but (most?) "hp buffs" grant temprary hitpoint which can not be "healed" through any method.
Oma, it would be extremely nice if you could learn how to post without quoting full posts and giving us impossible "walls of text" to sort through that have little to do with what you say afterward.
the problem with this is that the weapon have HP but the reapir dont reagin HP only make it at her Full HP again and here is for what happen if the sword is Dispelled or a mundane sword are under the effect of magic weapon and take damage.

Now if the damage is mundane what happen if you have a mundane Mw Long Sword and a Magical Long Sword +10 with 1 HP both under the rules the both take the same time and money to be repaired while one sword have 10 HP and the other 60 HP and what happen if you dispell this magical weapon with 10 damages, the weapon Exproding?? or the weapon remain in 10 HP or the weapon have a equivalent HP maybe 8 (that is what most consistent to what happens when repairing).

I'll tell you the reason you see repairs to items taking the same time is because it is assumed to take place off-camera, during down time, or what ever else you may call the times when you aren't actively adventuring and counting off rounds.  You don't see "you can repair X hitpoint each hour you work" because 99.9% of the time it is never an issue.  If time is that important I believe most DMs can figure something out.

A Masterwork Longsword has hardness 10 and 5 hp.  A +10 Longsword has hardness 30 and 105 hitpoints.  If both a reduced to 1 hp I'd HATE to see what that epic weapon went through.  If you have a hard time accepting that it would take the same amount of time to repair each of them you could consider the epic weapons magic magnifies the repairs that are happening to it giving it back hp faster.  That of course assumes the +100 hitpoints a +10 weapon gets are not "temporary hitpoints" which can not be restored.  

Oh, and what is with this weapon "exploding" if hit by Dispel Magic?  You know there is a difference between an item failing/falling apart and one exploding.  A "exploding" weapon hints at it potentially causing additional damage which is not the case here.


Oma, it would be extremely nice if you could learn how to post without quoting full posts and giving us impossible "walls of text" to sort through that have little to do with what you say afterward.
the problem with this is that the weapon have HP but the reapir dont reagin HP only make it at her Full HP again and here is for what happen if the sword is Dispelled or a mundane sword are under the effect of magic weapon and take damage.

Now if the damage is mundane what happen if you have a mundane Mw Long Sword and a Magical Long Sword +10 with 1 HP both under the rules the both take the same time and money to be repaired while one sword have 10 HP and the other 60 HP and what happen if you dispell this magical weapon with 10 damages, the weapon Exproding?? or the weapon remain in 10 HP or the weapon have a equivalent HP maybe 8 (that is what most consistent to what happens when repairing).

I'll tell you the reason you see repairs to items taking the same time is because it is assumed to take place off-camera, during down time, or what ever else you may call the times when you aren't actively adventuring and counting off rounds.  You don't see "you can repair X hitpoint each hour you work" because 99.9% of the time it is never an issue.  If time is that important I believe most DMs can figure something out.

A Masterwork Longsword has hardness 10 and 5 hp.  A +10 Longsword has hardness 30 and 105 hitpoints.  If both a reduced to 1 hp I'd HATE to see what that epic weapon went through.  If you have a hard time accepting that it would take the same amount of time to repair each of them you could consider the epic weapons magic magnifies the repairs that are happening to it giving it back hp faster.  That of course assumes the +100 hitpoints a +10 weapon gets are not "temporary hitpoints" which can not be restored.  

Oh, and what is with this weapon "exploding" if hit by Dispel Magic?  You know there is a difference between an item failing/falling apart and one exploding.  A "exploding" weapon hints at it potentially causing additional damage which is not the case here.



under the game rules cost the same in time ,gps and DC repair 9 damages to a MW weapon that repair 109 tho the same weapon in her magical version then under the rules this HP is only a equivalent of the mundane version, then we can apply this at the inverse and when the magic weapon have 55/110 her mundane version have 5/10.

and again the temporal HP have the same problem that the CON HP because while you can't regain the losing temporal HP you can't use the CON HP rule if you Don't have CON the explication of this are a boost of adrenaline or metabolism that a object can't have.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Thank you for presenting another viewpoint MrCustomer.  While it does a wonderful job of explaining the repair of items do you have any comment on what to do with a weapon's hitpoints when it loses any enhancement bonuses it may have had?  This seems to be the core of the "discussion" Oma and I were having with me bring up repairing an item and comparing that to healing the temporary hitpoints he claims an enhancement bonus adds.



For all intents and purposes it behaves exactly as a creature would under the effects of a Bear's Endurance, they are not temperary Hit Points. Hardness and Hitpoints added is an Enhancement Bonus.


So a +3 Two handed Sword, total hp of say 40, takes 5 damage, leaving 35 hp and is in a anti-magic Field, It looses the +30 HP from the Magic Enhancement and becomes normal sword with 5 damage (5 hp out of 10 left)

When it leaves the field, it regains the +30 HP from the Enhancement Bonus and now has 35 HP again (out of 40hp)

Now if this sword had taken 15 damage (out of 40), leaving it with 25 Hp and it was dispelled, it would loose the 30 hp from the magic Enhancement, leaving it a 10 hp item with 15 damage, which would destroy it.


For the cost of repair and the time required, this is 1/5 of the price to repair. The time to repair is 1/3 of that cost in raw materials, then roll the craft DC either weekly in Silver pieces or daily in Copper peices, multiply your skill check by the item DC to get the amount in silver/copper you have repaired until you reach the total. (I would do this daily for repairs but weekly works too a roll of double the price indicated half a weeks work)

A DM could allow for a partical repair, using the rules above granting a portion of the HP equal to the same ratio of work done. (ie the item took 8 damage and the cost to repair is 200gp, the skill check 25 multipled by the DC 20 is 500 sp or 50 gp, or 1/4th of the work, so the DM can rationalize that 2 HP has been repaired)
Thank you for presenting another viewpoint MrCustomer.  While it does a wonderful job of explaining the repair of items do you have any comment on what to do with a weapon's hitpoints when it loses any enhancement bonuses it may have had?  This seems to be the core of the "discussion" Oma and I were having with me bring up repairing an item and comparing that to healing the temporary hitpoints he claims an enhancement bonus adds.



For all intents and purposes it behaves exactly as a creature would under the effects of a Bear's Endurance, they are not temperary Hit Points. Hardness and Hitpoints added is an Enhancement Bonus.


So a +3 Two handed Sword, total hp of say 40, takes 5 damage, leaving 35 hp and is in a anti-magic Field, It looses the +30 HP from the Magic Enhancement and becomes normal sword with 5 damage (5 hp out of 10 left)

When it leaves the field, it regains the +30 HP from the Enhancement Bonus and now has 35 HP again (out of 40hp)

Now if this sword had taken 15 damage (out of 40), leaving it with 25 Hp and it was dispelled, it would loose the 30 hp from the magic Enhancement, leaving it a 10 hp item with 15 damage, which would destroy it.


For the cost of repair and the time required, this is 1/5 of the price to repair. The time to repair is 1/3 of that cost in raw materials, then roll the craft DC either weekly in Silver pieces or daily in Copper peices, multiply your skill check by the item DC to get the amount in silver/copper you have repaired until you reach the total. (I would do this daily for repairs but weekly works too a roll of double the price indicated half a weeks work)

A DM could allow for a partical repair, using the rules above granting a portion of the HP equal to the same ratio of work done. (ie the item took 8 damage and the cost to repair is 200gp, the skill check 25 multipled by the DC 20 is 500 sp or 50 gp, or 1/4th of the work, so the DM can rationalize that 2 HP has been repaired)

Enhancement Bonus
A bonus that represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.

The problem is that the enhancement bonus work in the CON of the creature and then work in her HP as side effect and as is saying in the description only work in Natural Armor, Bonus, and Abilities Scores not in HP directly and under the rules you can't boost the CON of a object because dont have CON.

but now i are more agree that the HP is losing because lose a lot of Sturdiness (but maybe is the hardness) but what happen whit the rule of repair if you use it at inverse the reduction of  HP make the weapon stay in the same % of her HP that was having in her magical version.

and about the Craft check the rules say that is the same to repair the mundane item and always is the same, the damage and her current HP are irrelevants because you only recraft it at her new state then no matter if only have 1 damage or have 19 or 119 always take the same and then this are a equivalent damage %.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
For all intents and purposes it behaves exactly as a creature would under the effects of a Bear's Endurance, they are not temperary Hit Points. Hardness and Hitpoints added is an Enhancement Bonus.

So a +3 Two handed Sword, total hp of say 40, takes 5 damage, leaving 35 hp and is in a anti-magic Field, It looses the +30 HP from the Magic Enhancement and becomes normal sword with 5 damage (5 hp out of 10 left)

When it leaves the field, it regains the +30 HP from the Enhancement Bonus and now has 35 HP again (out of 40hp)

Now if this sword had taken 15 damage (out of 40), leaving it with 25 Hp and it was dispelled, it would loose the 30 hp from the magic Enhancement, leaving it a 10 hp item with 15 damage, which would destroy it.

Thank you for your viewpoint.

  under the game rules cost the same in time ,gps and DC repair 9 damages to a MW weapon that repair 109 tho the same weapon in her magical version then under the rules this HP is only a equivalent of the mundane version, then we can apply this at the inverse and when the magic weapon have 55/110 her mundane version have 5/10.

and again the temporal HP have the same problem that the CON HP because while you can't regain the losing temporal HP you can't use the CON HP rule if you Don't have CON the explication of this are a boost of adrenaline or metabolism that a object can't have.




Oma, a +10 Sword with 55/110 hp, is a sword that has been destroyed, shattered and is only being held together by the magical Enhancement.

HP is used as an abstraction in D&D, and we don't describe the nature of the injury or damage ussually, but in this case the DM could describe thin cracks spidering on the sword's blade.

As soon as that enchantment is dispelled and is no longer holding the sword together (despite the 55 damage it's taken) it will be destroyed.

Think of it as an electro-magnet lifting a pile of small metal bearings up, soon as the magnet turns off, the bearings all fall apart. A Magic enhancement to an item helps "Bind" it together making it more solid and able to withstand damage (abstractly represented by HPs) even damage that woudl normally destroy it. When the binding is no longer there then it will retain the damage that was done to it despite the enhancement (in the case of the 55/110 weapon it would fall apart as a non-magical couldn't withstand that damage.