Hirelings, Death, and failure

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As soon as my players found out about Hirelings, they've tried to intimdate/convince every since human foe (And tried to convince some undead) to join them, i'm worried them having too many hirelings will bog things down a bit. 

Also! Charatcer death, if a PC dies early on, what am I supposed to do? I want them to be able to still play, but I want death to have consuqence.

And Failure, often my PCs will do something, realize how stupid/how not helpful and they'll plead with me to take it back, or they'll get a bad roll that'll cause them to have to fight something, or spring a trap'n they'll whine a tiny bit about it, makes me feel like the bad guy sometimes. 

Anyway, thanks for the help, i'm still really new to DMing, and just as new to D&D myself. 
Obviously, to the first, the opponent just says 'no', and continues attempting to beat the crap out of the PCs.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Obviously, to the first, the opponent just says 'no', and continues attempting to beat the crap out of the PCs.



Yeah, I always want to have them say no, but I feel odd doing it when they roll like a 20-25.
 
As soon as my players found out about Hirelings, they've tried to intimdate/convince every since human foe (And tried to convince some undead) to join them, i'm worried them having too many hirelings will bog things down a bit.

Relegate the hirelings to minions. They can help and support, but they're no longer the focus of the scene, so a single hit can take them out. (A single strike with a weapon can take anyone out, of course, but those who are the focus of the scene have the means to generally avoid the out-of-the-blue lethal blows. That's what hit points represent.)

Also! Charatcer death, if a PC dies early on, what am I supposed to do? I want them to be able to still play, but I want death to have consuqence.

Just let them bring in a new character. What more consequence does death need to have than losing their character?

And Failure, often my PCs will do something, realize how stupid/how not helpful and they'll plead with me to take it back, or they'll get a bad roll that'll cause them to have to fight something, or spring a trap'n they'll whine a tiny bit about it, makes me feel like the bad guy sometimes.

As the DM, you decide how "stupid" or "not helpful" an action is. Try not to decide that things are stupid or not helpful. Ask what they player is expecting to get from the action, and consider giving it to them if they succeed.

If your players are whining about something, they're telling you that you're trying to get them to play the game in a way they don't enjoy. The game works fine and is still perfectly realistic without traps, and without fights being the consequence for failure. Talk to your players and find out what they'd like to encounter, and what kind of failure would be interesting to them. Don't assume they'll enjoy situations you put them in just because the game allows it. And don't assume that they'll seriously complain about any setback or problem. There's a very good chance that there are certain setbacks they're willing to be challenged by.

Anyway, thanks for the help, i'm still really new to DMing, and just as new to D&D myself.

Welcome aboard and good luck.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

Just let them bring in a new character. What more consequence does death need to have than losing their character?

~~

Well, this is where a little bit of the complaining comes in, they put all that effort into their chararcter, they don't want to let it go, and I want it to be meaningful, not just suddenly a new wizard clone pops up out of nowhere.

For example, for whatever reason the adventure we were running had a dragon in it, during the fight the Wizard was low on HP, and the Dragon rolled a 20 and hit him into -20 something, past his bloodied, instantly killing him, we were shocked and suprised. The party did have the coin. (Nor did they wish to spend it. On paying the costs for the ritual to bring him back, so I had a Cleric in the next town able to do it, but they had to help him with something first. (Had they dead Wizard play as the Cleric so he wasn't bored.) That's how I handled it the first time it happen due to lucky rolls, knowing my group they'll be hesitant to completely re-roll charatcers.

~~

If your players are whining about something, they're telling you that you're trying to get them to play the game in a way they don't enjoy. The game works fine and is still perfectly realistic without traps, and without fights being the consequence for failure. Talk to your players and find out what they'd like to encounter, and what kind of failure would be interesting to them. Don't assume they'll enjoy situations you put them in just because the game allows it. And don't assume that they'll seriously complain about any setback or problem. There's a very good chance that there are certain setbacks they're willing to be challenged by.

~~

Interesting, but tricky to handle in my mind.(Makes sense though) How do I play this off then? There should be consquences for failure, shouldn't there? 
Well, this is where a little bit of the complaining comes in, they put all that effort into their chararcter, they don't want to let it go, and I want it to be meaningful, not just suddenly a new wizard clone pops up out of nowhere.

If they don't want their characters to go, then you don't have to kill them. Death is not the only way for characters to fail.

The fact of the matter is that it's not entirely about what you want. You can't force death to be meaningful, if that's not what the player is interested in. I recommend asking what the players would consider to be an exiting way for their characters to die, and under what circumstances that would leave a character dead and make a completely new one. Then put that in the adventure. If they don't think a way to die would be exciting, then that's not the kind of game they want to play. Either adjust your playstyle to the kind of game they want, or part ways.

Interesting, but tricky to handle in my mind.(Makes sense though) How do I play this off then? There should be consquences for failure, shouldn't there?

Certainly there should, but they don't have to consequences that the players find boring. There are almost certainly interesting setbacks or consequences that could happen that they players would get a kick out of and find to be an interesting challenge. They'd try to avoid these outcomes, but could still enjoy the game after they'd occurred. There's no point in inflicting results that the players aren't interested in. It just leads to the kinds of reactions you're talking about.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

Well, this is where a little bit of the complaining comes in, they put all that effort into their chararcter, they don't want to let it go, and I want it to be meaningful, not just suddenly a new wizard clone pops up out of nowhere.

If they don't want their characters to go, then you don't have to kill them. Death is not the only way for characters to fail.

The fact of the matter is that it's not entirely about what you want. You can't force death to be meaningful, if that's not what the player is interested in. I recommend asking what the players would consider to be an exiting way for their characters to die, and under what circumstances that would leave a character dead and make a completely new one. Then put that in the adventure. If they don't think a way to die would be exciting, then that's not the kind of game they want to play. Either adjust your playstyle to the kind of game they want, or part ways.

Interesting, but tricky to handle in my mind.(Makes sense though) How do I play this off then? There should be consquences for failure, shouldn't there?

Certainly there should, but they don't have to consequences that the players find boring. There are almost certainly interesting setbacks or consequences that could happen that they players would get a kick out of and find to be an interesting challenge. They'd try to avoid these outcomes, but could still enjoy the game after they'd occurred. There's no point in inflicting results that the players aren't interested in. It just leads to the kinds of reactions you're talking about.





I guess that makes sense, it's tough trying to make it an enjoyable experience for everyone, everyone has little to no experience or knowledge, I just happen to read the books so I get to be the DM, but as long as everyone is having a good time, I feel like i've done my job well.
I guess that makes sense, it's tough trying to make it an enjoyable experience for everyone, everyone has little to no experience or knowledge, I just happen to read the books so I get to be the DM, but as long as everyone is having a good time, I feel like i've done my job well.

Yes, it can be tough to make something everyone will enjoy, especially if you're the only one coming up with the adventure. So, tap into their creative brains. Don't ask them about the kinds of things they'd like, because sometimes it's hard to put that in words. Ask them for specifics. Let them look through the Monster Manual for the kinds of enemies they think it would be cool to fight. Ask them about the kinds of movies they like, and run something inspired by those. Etc.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

I guess that makes sense, it's tough trying to make it an enjoyable experience for everyone, everyone has little to no experience or knowledge, I just happen to read the books so I get to be the DM, but as long as everyone is having a good time, I feel like i've done my job well.

Yes, it can be tough to make something everyone will enjoy, especially if you're the only one coming up with the adventure. So, tap into their creative brains. Don't ask them about the kinds of things they'd like, because sometimes it's hard to put that in words. Ask them for specifics. Let them look through the Monster Manual for the kinds of enemies they think it would be cool to fight. Ask them about the kinds of movies they like, and run something inspired by those. Etc.



I got one that I know enjoys kicking faces in and taking names, tries to max out damage, goes for high gold count, very greedy wants to steal or take what he needs.

Then we have the Priest(Wizard soon.) And the paladin. Both i'm not so sure about, I think they themselves don't know what they want/what to expect.


And we have our Ranger, who's calm, collected and doesn't talk alot. 
I got one that I know enjoys kicking faces in and taking names, tries to max out damage, goes for high gold count, very greedy wants to steal or take what he needs.

Then you have someone who is very easy to challenge: just put his gold at risk and watch him sweat.

Then we have the Priest(Wizard soon.) And the paladin. Both i'm not so sure about, I think they themselves don't know what they want/what to expect.

And we have our Ranger, who's calm, collected and doesn't talk alot. 

Talk to them about movies and stories. D&D can be like a movie or story, so ask them if there's scene or storyline they'd like to be involved in. Sometimes when the ask what their characters see next, turn the question around, find out what the players would like to see, then give that to them in some way.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

I got one that I know enjoys kicking faces in and taking names, tries to max out damage, goes for high gold count, very greedy wants to steal or take what he needs.

Then you have someone who is very easy to challenge: just put his gold at risk and watch him sweat.

Then we have the Priest(Wizard soon.) And the paladin. Both i'm not so sure about, I think they themselves don't know what they want/what to expect.

And we have our Ranger, who's calm, collected and doesn't talk alot. 

Talk to them about movies and stories. D&D can be like a movie or story, so ask them if there's scene or storyline they'd like to be involved in. Sometimes when the ask what their characters see next, turn the question around, find out what the players would like to see, then give that to them in some way.




I can hear his exact words in my head, "Awh WTF man, really?"
More annoyance then him sweating.

As for the others, i'll try, i'm not good at  being subtle or reading people but I will try.
I can hear his exact words in my head, "Awh WTF man, really?"
More annoyance then him sweating.

Ah, true, I can see that. Okay, ask him point blank if there's a way he could imagine his character getting into trouble that he, the player, would enjoy.

As for the others, i'll try, i'm not good at  being subtle or reading people but I will try.

Don't be subtle. Don't try to read them. Ask them point blank: "Let's do some scenes out of movies we like. What would you like to try?"

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.


I got one that I know enjoys kicking faces in and taking names, tries to max out damage, goes for high gold count, very greedy wants to steal or take what he needs.

Then we have the Priest(Wizard soon.) And the paladin. Both i'm not so sure about, I think they themselves don't know what they want/what to expect.


And we have our Ranger, who's calm, collected and doesn't talk alot. 



Very new players often don't actually know what they want. They don't understand enough about the game, it's mechanics and what-not to really know what they might like or enjoy.

The best advice I can give if that is your situation is to boil things down to "Game first". What that really means is that take it easy...present the challenge that the actual game provides. Focus on the mechanics of your sessions and do small steps with everything else. What will happen is that naturally the players will gravitate towards the stuff they DO like and the focus will occasionally move to those things. Between games get lots of feedback from your players so you can find out what they are enjoying, what is going well and what is falling flat.

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.


I got one that I know enjoys kicking faces in and taking names, tries to max out damage, goes for high gold count, very greedy wants to steal or take what he needs.

Then we have the Priest(Wizard soon.) And the paladin. Both i'm not so sure about, I think they themselves don't know what they want/what to expect.


And we have our Ranger, who's calm, collected and doesn't talk alot. 



Very new players often don't actually know what they want. They don't understand enough about the game, it's mechanics and what-not to really know what they might like or enjoy.

The best advice I can give if that is your situation is to boil things down to "Game first". What that really means is that take it easy...present the challenge that the actual game provides. Focus on the mechanics of your sessions and do small steps with everything else. What will happen is that naturally the players will gravitate towards the stuff they DO like and the focus will occasionally move to those things. Between games get lots of feedback from your players so you can find out what they are enjoying, what is going well and what is falling flat.



Exactly! Your first bit, is EXACTLY what i'm saying, they do have a habit of trying to talk their enemies down, going for the Diplomacy checks and Bluff checks, but they often say something that doesn't makes sense/is a flat out obvious lie and get sad when their roll of 20 something doesn't give them success when his bluff was bad. (I.e. saying he didn't stab someone when the corpse is next to him and he's holding a blood dripping dagger.)

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Exactly! Your first bit, is EXACTLY what i'm saying, they do have a habit of trying to talk their enemies down, going for the Diplomacy checks and Bluff checks, but they often say something that doesn't makes sense/is a flat out obvious lie and get sad when their roll of 20 something doesn't give them success when his bluff was bad. (I.e. saying he didn't stab someone when the corpse is next to him and he's holding a blood dripping dagger.)




This is where you have to step in as a DM and help them out.

Diplomacy and Bluff checks can be a good tool for HELPING people with roleplay, rather than making the rolls hinge on it.

If they come up with a REALLY bad lie that would impose a hefty penalty remember that penalties like that are based on what they actually want to convince the person of. So, for instance in the example of the corpse and stabber, ask the player "What is it you actually want to convince this guy to do?" The answer you will probably receive is "I don't want him to attack me!". So you can have the player roll and NOT add a penalty dependent on the players words. Instead, when they roll, use that as your tool for determining the outcome. If the roll (again without penalty) succeeds you have to come up with a way that it works. Like "Okay you get a 25 for your bluff. You quickly ask for time to explain and say that you just chased off the victims attacker and pulled out the dagger to see if you could save them or if it was too late".

In this way you aren't punishing the player for being an inexperienced roleplayer (or bad liar ^_~) and are still letting them use the system. Again, "game first". It puts the onus on you to explain some stuff but, with time, it won't be necessary and the players will pick up that slack.

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Exactly! Your first bit, is EXACTLY what i'm saying, they do have a habit of trying to talk their enemies down, going for the Diplomacy checks and Bluff checks, but they often say something that doesn't makes sense/is a flat out obvious lie and get sad when their roll of 20 something doesn't give them success when his bluff was bad. (I.e. saying he didn't stab someone when the corpse is next to him and he's holding a blood dripping dagger.)




This is where you have to step in as a DM and help them out.

Diplomacy and Bluff checks can be a good tool for HELPING people with roleplay, rather than making the rolls hinge on it.

If they come up with a REALLY bad lie that would impose a hefty penalty remember that penalties like that are based on what they actually want to convince the person of. So, for instance in the example of the corpse and stabber, ask the player "What is it you actually want to convince this guy to do?" The answer you will probably receive is "I don't want him to attack me!". So you can have the player roll and NOT add a penalty dependent on the players words. Instead, when they roll, use that as your tool for determining the outcome. If the roll (again without penalty) succeeds you have to come up with a way that it works. Like "Okay you get a 25 for your bluff. You quickly ask for time to explain and say that you just chased off the victims attacker and pulled out the dagger to see if you could save them or if it was too late".

In this way you aren't punishing the player for being an inexperienced roleplayer (or bad liar ^_~) and are still letting them use the system. Again, "game first". It puts the onus on you to explain some stuff but, with time, it won't be necessary and the players will pick up that slack.



...That is really clever, I should use that sometime.
...That is really clever, I should use that sometime.



It is very easy for players to become flustered when they think their HP can hinge on the precision of any given word that might fall from their lips. This can stymie people really easily even if they're usually solid speakers and quick-thinkers. Once the game portion kicks in it can befuddle people.

What you'll quickly notice is that if you do this, it will make people feel a lot more at ease because they will have the dice and game mechanics to fall back on. It gives a level of seperation between them and the threat. A buffer zone.

Hope it helps. If you got more problems or issues...come at me, bro!

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

...That is really clever, I should use that sometime.



It is very easy for players to become flustered when they think their HP can hinge on the precision of any given word that might fall from their lips. This can stymie people really easily even if they're usually solid speakers and quick-thinkers. Once the game portion kicks in it can befuddle people.

What you'll quickly notice is that if you do this, it will make people feel a lot more at ease because they will have the dice and game mechanics to fall back on. It gives a level of seperation between them and the threat. A buffer zone.

Hope it helps. If you got more problems or issues...come at me, bro!



Ill have to take that into consideration next week when we play, thank you!
...That is really clever, I should use that sometime.



It is very easy for players to become flustered when they think their HP can hinge on the precision of any given word that might fall from their lips. This can stymie people really easily even if they're usually solid speakers and quick-thinkers. Once the game portion kicks in it can befuddle people.

What you'll quickly notice is that if you do this, it will make people feel a lot more at ease because they will have the dice and game mechanics to fall back on. It gives a level of seperation between them and the threat. A buffer zone.

Hope it helps. If you got more problems or issues...come at me, bro!



Ill have to take that into consideration next week when we play, thank you!



My pleasure. Let us know how it goes!

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

...That is really clever, I should use that sometime.



It is very easy for players to become flustered when they think their HP can hinge on the precision of any given word that might fall from their lips. This can stymie people really easily even if they're usually solid speakers and quick-thinkers. Once the game portion kicks in it can befuddle people.

What you'll quickly notice is that if you do this, it will make people feel a lot more at ease because they will have the dice and game mechanics to fall back on. It gives a level of seperation between them and the threat. A buffer zone.

Hope it helps. If you got more problems or issues...come at me, bro!



Ill have to take that into consideration next week when we play, thank you!



My pleasure. Let us know how it goes!




It'll be a while, we meet on Saturdays.

It'll be a while, we meet on Saturdays.



I'm patient. :P

Besides, that just gives me another week to hang out on the boards to be attacked verbally and told in threads and via PMs that I'm arrogant and how bad a person I am. So I'll be plenty entertained while I wait.

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.


It'll be a while, we meet on Saturdays.



I'm patient. :P

Besides, that just gives me another week to hang out on the boards to be attacked verbally and told in threads and via PMs that I'm arrogant and how bad a person I am. So I'll be plenty entertained while I wait.



Hardly, you've been rather helpful.

It'll be a while, we meet on Saturdays.



I'm patient. :P

Besides, that just gives me another week to hang out on the boards to be attacked verbally and told in threads and via PMs that I'm arrogant and how bad a person I am. So I'll be plenty entertained while I wait.



Hardly, you've been rather helpful.



I am sincerely glad to hear that. Good gaming.

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

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