Rogue Suggestions

First - I read the latest packet but haven't play tested it. I have done the others.

Now my read-through on the rogue was very similar to what many are saying. It's too similar to fighter, too weak, some say ruined.

I admire the attempt to link rogues to expertise dice. It worked so well for fighter. But I think it's a misstep for Rogue. Mostly due to the fighter redundancy issue.

I want to restore Sneak Attack as a class feature for Rogues. I think sneak attack is to rogue as turn undead is to cleric. 80% of the time you play this class, you want this feature. Since the latest CRIT rules were updated, I think we should have sneak attack be a more reliable Crit. You have advantage, you roll your attack and if both dice would hit the target's AC, then the attack is a Crit. I'd be open to tweaks, but 1d4 is simply not appealing.

As for maneuvers, I think Rogues should get their own list of "tricks" (or whatever) maybe grouped by scheme. We could easily poach some stuff from d20 modern like fast hero talents and infiltrator talents, etc. No expertise dice, just a menu of abilities, tricks, and tweaks that customize your rogue.

Skill mastery is a sticky wicket - but might be solved by allowing the rogue to apply up to 2 ability modifiers to a trained skill check attempt. Ex- you use your DEX & STR to tumble or escape. You use your INT and WIS to search/spot. Etc. you'd be a skill master, but not overwhelmingly so.

Anyway, maybe you've got some ideas that would be better than the latest rogue. I'd like to see them different, flexible, and fun.

We all know the complaints. What are the solutions?

-Brad

Heres what our rogue done. Note in playtest we are not overly attached to the characters.

 SHe rolled up a cleric and more or less NPCed her rogue. The idea being anyone can find a trap, just get the fighter to trip it and heal him up afterwards. Also for opening things one can kind of duplicate the rogue in various ways

1. Mighty exertion. Fighter rips door off hinges
2. acid flasks. Dissolve lock.
3. Crowbar.
4. Knock spells.
5. Extra wizard replacing rogue to get more knock spells (2 wizzie party).
6. Skill based fighter, another target to heal and set off traps the hard way.
7. Extra cleric for more healing spells for the primary trap finder.

 Brute force another words can also work.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Yes, the rogue is superfluous. There are plenty of ways to get around traditional rogue-y dilemmas.

However, since I personally love the rogue, I'm more interested in ways to improve him rather than write him out.

-Brad

Double sneak attack damage.  It's simple and keeps his damage compariable, if still worse then the fighter.

Then accept that he's skill master more then damage master.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Do you mean expertise dice damage roll times two?

Or regular attack damage times two?

Or 2[W] + Dex?

-Brad

My suggestion was to add 1 expertise dice to rogues... they can now be more flexible in combat or do extra sneak attack damage. I also would add an extra maneuver so they don't have to do the same thing every turn.
Do you mean expertise dice damage roll times two? Or regular attack damage times two? Or 2[W] + Dex?

Double the expertise dice.  Rolling twice also works.  Same difference.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

1) Rename "Sneak Attack" to "Dirty Fighting." Add the following feature to "Dirty Fighting:" any a foe takes damage from "Dirty Fighting" grants advantage against all attacks made to hit it until the start of the rogue's next turn. Please notice, this is designed to aid a rogue's allies. The rogue would not get advantage against this foe. At best, if a rogue was dual wielding it could lose disadvantage with its second attack.

2) Remove the "Skill Mastery" maneuver. Give all rogues "Dirty Fighting" instead. 

3) Give all rogues a class trait called "Skill Mastery." Skill Mastery allows rogues to roll twice for all skill checks and keep the best result. When a rogue has advantage on a skill check, it may roll 3d20 and keep the best result. Allow rogues to gain bonuses to skill checks (from rogue levels) at 4 times the speed of other classes (the maximum bonus a rogue can get in any single skill from training is still +7, though).  

4) Allow rogues to gain manoeuvres at the same rate as fighters.

5) Give a rogue more manoeuvres designed to debuff its targets.

6) Boost a rogues HD to d8.

7) This is a big one: At 5th level a rogue needs something to keep it competitive with the fighter. So far, this is the best idea I have seen--give the rogue "Backstab." Backstab: when a rogue makes an attack roll with advantage, if it hits with both attack dice it deals a critical hit. 

They do all of that, and I would love the rogue once again. 

That sounds more like an assassin. I don't want rogues to be assassins by default.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

7) This is a big one: At 5th level a rogue needs something to keep it competitive with the fighter. So far, this is the best idea I have seen--give the rogue "Backstab." Backstab: when a rogue makes an attack roll with advantage, if it hits with both attack dice it deals a critical hit.


I know people keep suggesting this at these higher levels because of the Fighter feature, but I think it's vitally important that the "damage spike" ability be something that characters can take at 1st level.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
Yeah but I can envision people saying, "if you want to play a real rogue - play assassin. This rogue is just fighter jr."

I can get behind d8 hit die and expanded skill-ups.

Frankly I think all characters should gain feats at a faster rate as well.

-Brad

Yeah but I can envision people saying, "if you want to play a real rogue - play assassin. This rogue is just fighter jr." I can get behind d8 hit die and expanded skill-ups. Frankly I think all characters should gain feats at a faster rate as well.

If you want to play a guy who sneaks up behind people and deals lots of damage, play an assassin.

If you want to play a guy who can get into any place, charm the pants off the mistres, and get out, play a rogue.

If you want to play a guy who can straight up fight, play a fighter.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Yeah but I can envision people saying, "if you want to play a real rogue - play assassin.

If you want to play a guy who sneaks up behind people and deals lots of damage, play an assassin.


And again, that attitude ("You don't really want to play [this class that you would previously have played], you want to play an [X]") went over exceedingly well with 4e, right?

Right?

(No.  The answer is it did not.  It was a massive source of complaint.  Massive.  And seemingly endless.)
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
That sounds more like an assassin. I don't want rogues to be assassins by default.




 Assuming you were talking about my ideas: It doesn't sound anything like an assassin. It sounds like a D&D rogue. Dirty Fighting would keep the rogue's DPR exactly the same as it is now. All rogues would get it, but realistically all rogues need it to be viable. Moreover, its new feature doesn't benefit the rogue, it benefits everyone else. The rogues role in combat would not be to deal high DPR but to give his allies advantage. Rogues would still have their primary identity: skill use. All rogues would get the chance to roll 2d20 on trained skills and keep the best result. Plus, a rogue could choose 4 skills, instead of 1, which he could max out with a +7 bonus by level 10. By level 20 he could max out 8. It isn't as swingy as Skill Training is now, but it keeps rogues as the masters of skills. As for backstab, rogues of every edition of D&D have gotten some iteration of this mechanic. This rogue gets it at level 5 in order to a) keep it viable when compared to the fighter and b) downplay the notion of the rogue as a combatant (because their signature fighting move at 1st level helps their allies more than it helps them). Even with it, the rogue will still have a lower DPR than the fighter. It will just have nice swingy spikes of damage. Meanwhile, the debuff manoeuvres would give the rogue something deceptive to do in combat besides dealing damage. 

I'm with Orzel, I want something else than butcher options for rogues.

Mike Mearls promised me a trickster, I want it. 
I'm fine with the Rogue-being-killtastic not being the default, but I really don't want to see it pushed into a seperate class just because it's not how some people want to play their rogues.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)

1) Rename "Sneak Attack" to "Dirty Fighting." Add the following feature to "Dirty Fighting:" any a foe takes damage from "Dirty Fighting" grants advantage against all attacks made to hit it until the start of the rogue's next turn. Please notice, this is designed to aid a rogue's allies. The rogue would not get advantage against this foe. At best, if a rogue was dual wielding it could lose disadvantage with its second attack.

2) Remove the "Skill Mastery" maneuver. Give all rogues "Dirty Fighting" instead. 

3) Give all rogues a class trait called "Skill Mastery." Skill Mastery allows rogues to roll twice for all skill checks and keep the best result. When a rogue has advantage on a skill check, it may roll 3d20 and keep the best result. Allow rogues to gain bonuses to skill checks (from rogue levels) at 4 times the speed of other classes (the maximum bonus a rogue can get in any single skill from training is still +7, though).  

4) Allow rogues to gain manoeuvres at the same rate as fighters.

5) Give a rogue more manoeuvres designed to debuff its targets.

6) Boost a rogues HD to d8.

7) This is a big one: At 5th level a rogue needs something to keep it competitive with the fighter. So far, this is the best idea I have seen--give the rogue "Backstab." Backstab: when a rogue makes an attack roll with advantage, if it hits with both attack dice it deals a critical hit. 

They do all of that, and I would love the rogue once again. 




I like this.  But I'm not sure, balance wise, what should be part of the basic rogue and what should be added by the specific scheme the player picks.  I kind of like the idea that the base rogue is incomplete until matched with a scheme.  The schemes in the playtest package are just a start.  I can even see "assassin" fitting into a theme or specialty. 

I've always had a problem with an "Assassin" as a class.   Any PC can be an assassin.  I'd argue that all military assassins are just soldiers trained in special ops/techniques.   A fighter or rogue (or even a wizard or cleric - diety permitting) who puts poison on his blade, or drops poison into someone's food, or uses a garrotte to kill someone, or slits someone's throat while he is sleeping is an assassin.   I could see special training in the form of a specialty (or hand picked feats to make some of these techniques easier to use, or even add to sneak attacks), but even after many iterations of D&D, some without assassins and some with assassins, I'm not comfortable with them as a class.

A Brave Knight of WTF

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 



I like this.  But I'm not sure, balance wise, what should be part of the basic rogue and what should be added by the specific scheme the player picks.  I kind of like the idea that the base rogue is incomplete until matched with a scheme.  The schemes in the playtest package are just a start.  I can even see "assassin" fitting into a theme or specialty. 




For the rogue to be balanced, all of that needs to be part of the basic rogue class. Schemes and the like would modify it. 
I agree with a lot of the ideas in this thread. I especially like the one where advantage gives a you a better chance to crit, and that being how sneak attack works.

I believe I'm echoing some other posters when I say that if they want to make the rogue the skill guy, then he should fight with his skills. He should be able to creatively use his skills to cause chaos and confusion on the battlefield, and when the time is right, he slips in and shanks someone. I haven't been able to think of any specifics, but I think this could be accomplished with a list of general effects/debuffs that the rogue could apply that would alter the flow of combat somehow. These effects wouldn't be tied to any one particular skill, but instead the player could choose a skill and effect that makes sense in the current situation.

To put it another way, I kinda see the rogue acting more as a controller most of the time with a turn here and there where they turn into strikers.

The way I see it, a lot of people didn't like how the earlier rogue got boring with the constant hide, sneak attack, hide, sneak attack, and so on. I think the problem was that hiding did nothing besides set up the rogue for a sneak attack. But what if the those intermediary turns actually had some effect on the battlefield as well as setting up the rogue? That I think would fix the rogue, and make it interesting to play and distinct from the fighter.
 Dirty fighting granting advantage is a controller move... 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

 Dirty fighting granting advantage is a controller move... 



but would that be a bad thing ?

does the rogue remain a pure striker or maybe leans more to combat control in this edition 
 Dirty fighting granting advantage is a controller move... 



but would that be a bad thing ?

does the rogue remain a pure striker or maybe leans more to combat control in this edition 

The devs are trapped.
Fantasy rogues are low damage tricksters, more enablers or controllers. D&D has brought the concept of rogues as selfish strikers (even if backstab was a laughable ability), conception enforced by videogames later.

The old editions thieves are built like people who work better solo, and are more useful to the group when they are not part of the group dynamics.

The devs tried to take back the rogue into the group dynamics with the 3rd edition through the only combat mechanic of the thief, backstab, that became "sneak attack" to be at least useful.

IMO, the devs should offer the fantasy and the old D&D options through schemes.
Schemes can offer their own maneuvers. The thug gains a sneak attack, another enbables allies to attacks, another add damage as a reaction to an ally attack, another can blind the enemy, and so on. A scheme could offer more than one maneuver, each having to be taken as normal maneuvers, not free.

Sneak attack could stay as it is if each scheme has its special attack maneuver. The stealth rogue could have backstab only usable when stealthed, inflicting two rounds worth of damage in one attack (as it requires one round to hide again), for example.

And I still see no reason why rogues should gain something else than four more specialized skills. Prisons are full of thieves, it can't be true if something like skill mastery exists.
Really excellent points about what a rogue is (in D&D).

I think schemes definitely should address what you want your rogue to be. Thug, Thief, Scoundrel, Explorer (Indiana jones style).

That said - with maneuvers more closely attached to schemes, I want Rogues to get away from expertise dice. I don't think they gel as well with rogue as with fighter. I'd like to see well-designed maneuvers that stand alone and aren't dependent on a scaling feature.

Ex-
"Escape Artist" when grabbed, restrained, or otherwise rendered unable to move. The check/save you attempt on your turn to escape the grab (etc) does not use your action for that round, if you successfully escape. (Better wording needed obviously).

Acrobat - as part of your movement, you can use the environment, allies, hostile creatures, and anything reasonably within reach to move where others would not be able to go. Make a dexterity check against a moderate DC (adjusted upward marginally for each blocked area, gap, or hostile creature you attempt to pass). If you succeed, you may move over, through, around the obstacles without provoking an opportunity attack. If you fail, you must stop at the first obstacle and you fall prone.

I'd like this sort of thing better than expertise dice for our rogues.

-Brad

 Dirty fighting granting advantage is a controller move... 



but would that be a bad thing ?

does the rogue remain a pure striker or maybe leans more to combat control in this edition 



Hell no its a cool thang.
 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Yeah but I can envision people saying, "if you want to play a real rogue - play assassin.

If you want to play a guy who sneaks up behind people and deals lots of damage, play an assassin.


And again, that attitude ("You don't really want to play [this class that you would previously have played], you want to play an [X]") went over exceedingly well with 4e, right?

Right?

(No.  The answer is it did not.  It was a massive source of complaint.  Massive.  And seemingly endless.)

Well that's why you make an assassin with a rogue sub-class.
And a rogue with an assassin sub-class.
And a cleric with the trickerster domain.
And an assassin with the healer sub-class.
ect...

Now everyone can play whatever however.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

1) Rename "Sneak Attack" to "Dirty Fighting." Add the following feature to "Dirty Fighting:" any a foe takes damage from "Dirty Fighting" grants advantage against all attacks made to hit it until the start of the rogue's next turn. Please notice, this is designed to aid a rogue's allies. The rogue would not get advantage against this foe. At best, if a rogue was dual wielding it could lose disadvantage with its second attack.


2) Remove the "Skill Mastery" maneuver. Give all rogues "Dirty Fighting" instead. 

3) Give all rogues a class trait called "Skill Mastery." Skill Mastery allows rogues to roll twice for all skill checks and keep the best result. When a rogue has advantage on a skill check, it may roll 3d20 and keep the best result. Allow rogues to gain bonuses to skill checks (from rogue levels) at 4 times the speed of other classes (the maximum bonus a rogue can get in any single skill from training is still +7, though).  

4) Allow rogues to gain manoeuvres at the same rate as fighters.

5) Give a rogue more manoeuvres designed to debuff its targets.

6) Boost a rogues HD to d8.

7) This is a big one: At 5th level a rogue needs something to keep it competitive with the fighter. So far, this is the best idea I have seen--give the rogue "Backstab." Backstab: when a rogue makes an attack roll with advantage, if it hits with both attack dice it deals a critical hit. 

They do all of that, and I would love the rogue once again.




+1 to this post. Only things I disagree on are:
-I actually like the current skill mastery maneuver, and prefer it to rolling more d20s, because it allows rogues to attain better results as they level, rather than just averaging higher within the same range.
-I'm fine with boosting Rogue up to current Fighter maneuver progression, but that's mostly because I want to see Fighter's maneuver progression boosted as well. 1 every 2 levels is too slow, one per 3 levels is horrid.
Yeah but I can envision people saying, "if you want to play a real rogue - play assassin.

If you want to play a guy who sneaks up behind people and deals lots of damage, play an assassin.


And again, that attitude ("You don't really want to play [this class that you would previously have played], you want to play an [X]") went over exceedingly well with 4e, right?

Right?

(No.  The answer is it did not.  It was a massive source of complaint.  Massive.  And seemingly endless.)

Well that's why you make an assassin with a rogue sub-class.
And a rogue with an assassin sub-class.
And a cleric with the trickerster domain.
And an assassin with the healer sub-class.
ect...

Now everyone can play whatever however.



And you do this in book one right?? no you get a bunch of whiners who cant wait.. because they cant do it the way they used to yada yada yada..

Because waiting for a few months of the martial power suplement that includes dex build fighters tempest two weapon fighters is such a burden.



  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Yeah but I can envision people saying, "if you want to play a real rogue - play assassin.

If you want to play a guy who sneaks up behind people and deals lots of damage, play an assassin.


And again, that attitude ("You don't really want to play [this class that you would previously have played], you want to play an [X]") went over exceedingly well with 4e, right?

Right?

(No.  The answer is it did not.  It was a massive source of complaint.  Massive.  And seemingly endless.)

Well that's why you make an assassin with a rogue sub-class.
And a rogue with an assassin sub-class.
And a cleric with the trickerster domain.
And an assassin with the healer sub-class.
ect...

Now everyone can play whatever however.




I don't care how I have to go about building it so long as I can build it that is all that matters.  so long as I don't have to reflavor something to make it happen then I'm good.  the difference between 4e and me telling someone that they can totally build a thug with a fighter is that you literally change nothing about the capabilities of the fighter, no descriptions of any kind need be changed, and you have a thug.  Given the options available I can make it happen.  I don't have to take a hammer to the system in order to make what I want by re-terming magic as something else.  That is the difference here.  I'm not saying hey if you use this caster class that has this one spell and change that spell to be something completely different but with the same in game effect you can totally play what you want to.  I'm saying hey here are these options within the unaltered RAW that allows you to play the character you are looking for.    That is the difference here.  While I want to be able to reflavor things I don't want to have to.  

In 4e it wasn't, "Here are the exact things you want to do, this class does them the best.",  it was, "Here are these things that you could reflavor/retexture to maybe be close to what you wanted to do.  Oh also your going to get a bunch of extra capabilities you didn't even want and don't fit this character, and your going to have to reflavor/retexture them just to make it work.  Oh also we are going to release something later on that acomplishes that exact thing you reflavored for, but it does it better, and you won't need to have done any of that work."


heck they are even doing a better job of hitting niches already:  Want to play a "Bard" type character but without all the magic?  sweet go rogue take the minstrel background, and you are good to go, you wont have magic but you are still a travelling performer and bard.  For those that want to play a nonmagical bard.  I don't have to explain away my magic, and explain how it isn't actually magic and doesn't follow the rules for magic.  I don't need to reflavor or change anything to kinda make it work.  I just sit down make my character and start talking about the stuff I do given my capabilities that are clearly written out in the rules.  The best part: I could totally reflavor it to be magic if I wanted to, but they will be making a magical bard later in the playtest so I won't need to.
I don't care how I have to go about building it so long as I can build it that is all that matters.  so long as I don't have to reflavor something to make it happen then I'm good.  the difference between 4e and me telling someone that they can totally build a thug with a fighter is that you literally change nothing about the capabilities of the fighter, no descriptions of any kind need be changed, and you have a thug.  Given the options available I can make it happen.  I don't have to take a hammer to the system in order to make what I want by re-terming magic as something else.  That is the difference here.  I'm not saying hey if you use this caster class that has this one spell and change that spell to be something completely different but with the same in game effect you can totally play what you want to.  I'm saying hey here are these options within the unaltered RAW that allows you to play the character you are looking for.    That is the difference here.  While I want to be able to reflavor things I don't want to have to.  

In 4e it wasn't, "Here are the exact things you want to do, this class does them the best.",  it was, "Here are these things that you could reflavor/retexture to maybe be close to what you wanted to do.  Oh also your going to get a bunch of extra capabilities you didn't even want and don't fit this character, and your going to have to reflavor/retexture them just to make it work.  Oh also we are going to release something later on that acomplishes that exact thing you reflavored for, but it does it better, and you won't need to have done any of that work."


heck they are even doing a better job of hitting niches already:  Want to play a "Bard" type character but without all the magic?  sweet go rogue take the minstrel background, and you are good to go, you wont have magic but you are still a travelling performer and bard.  For those that want to play a nonmagical bard.  I don't have to explain away my magic, and explain how it isn't actually magic and doesn't follow the rules for magic.  I don't need to reflavor or change anything to kinda make it work.  I just sit down make my character and start talking about the stuff I do given my capabilities that are clearly written out in the rules.  The best part: I could totally reflavor it to be magic if I wanted to, but they will be making a magical bard later in the playtest so I won't need to.

You mean they can't cover every single possible character concept?  And can't do it in the first book?

Yea, that happens.  

The big difference is that with in earlier editions, if it didn't exsist, you couldn't play it.  Want to be able to use magical guns?  To bad, it doesn't exsist.

In 4e, alot more concepts where possible, even if you had to work/wait for it.  That's a big step forward.  I'd rather play a magical gunslinger as a reflavored cleric|rogue/wizard then not play one at all.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I don't need "every single possible character concept" covered - nobody expects that.

But when they've touted "including the classes from every PHB1", I do expect to be able to play the same types of characters, using those classes, that I could previously.**

When a class previously covered [A] and [b], I'd like it to still cover [A] and [b], not shrug [A] off on some other class.  My entire point is: "If you want to play a Rogue you could have played in 3e or 4e (and 2e, via kit), go use a different class" -> is unacceptable, to me.

And honestly, Rogue can cover the concept, with something like a single addition - and an optional one, at that (via maneuver).  Or a change.


** I would have - and would expect others to have - the same complaint if they did something like take heavy armor and shields away from the Fighter (and then say "Use the Paladin").
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
Sorry Garthanos, that's one of those posts you make where I can't understand most of what you're saying in the slightest.
It is still about expectations.


Yes, yes it is.  That's not a bad thing.

EDIT:... The hell?  I've replied to a post that doesn't exist!
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
Sorry Garthanos, that's one of those posts you make where I can't understand most of what you're saying in the slightest.
It is still about expectations.


Yes, yes it is.  That's not a bad thing.



I deleted it as I re-read what I said and couldnt figure out what its point was.. so ummm I think ... herp derp.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I don't care how I have to go about building it so long as I can build it that is all that matters.  so long as I don't have to reflavor something to make it happen then I'm good.  the difference between 4e and me telling someone that they can totally build a thug with a fighter is that you literally change nothing about the capabilities of the fighter, no descriptions of any kind need be changed, and you have a thug.  Given the options available I can make it happen.  I don't have to take a hammer to the system in order to make what I want by re-terming magic as something else.  That is the difference here.  I'm not saying hey if you use this caster class that has this one spell and change that spell to be something completely different but with the same in game effect you can totally play what you want to.  I'm saying hey here are these options within the unaltered RAW that allows you to play the character you are looking for.    That is the difference here.  While I want to be able to reflavor things I don't want to have to.  

In 4e it wasn't, "Here are the exact things you want to do, this class does them the best.",  it was, "Here are these things that you could reflavor/retexture to maybe be close to what you wanted to do.  Oh also your going to get a bunch of extra capabilities you didn't even want and don't fit this character, and your going to have to reflavor/retexture them just to make it work.  Oh also we are going to release something later on that acomplishes that exact thing you reflavored for, but it does it better, and you won't need to have done any of that work."


heck they are even doing a better job of hitting niches already:  Want to play a "Bard" type character but without all the magic?  sweet go rogue take the minstrel background, and you are good to go, you wont have magic but you are still a travelling performer and bard.  For those that want to play a nonmagical bard.  I don't have to explain away my magic, and explain how it isn't actually magic and doesn't follow the rules for magic.  I don't need to reflavor or change anything to kinda make it work.  I just sit down make my character and start talking about the stuff I do given my capabilities that are clearly written out in the rules.  The best part: I could totally reflavor it to be magic if I wanted to, but they will be making a magical bard later in the playtest so I won't need to.

You mean they can't cover every single possible character concept?  And can't do it in the first book?

Yea, that happens.  

The big difference is that with in earlier editions, if it didn't exsist, you couldn't play it.  Want to be able to use magical guns?  To bad, it doesn't exsist.

In 4e, alot more concepts where possible, even if you had to work/wait for it.  That's a big step forward.  I'd rather play a magical gunslinger as a reflavored cleric|rogue/wizard then not play one at all.




there is a difference between every concept and basic concepts that can be expanded upon.  The fact that I had to wait almost 2 years for a bard was annoying the 3 years for a monk was almost unacceptable.  In the meantime what was my option?  Reflavor something to make it kindof like a monk or a bard but not really even close.  There was no way to build a class on your own really.  Other than doing so from scratch.  You could try to cherry pick pieces from different classes but that got messy real quick.  Even if you did figure out on your own how to properly build a 4e class you had to be a full on expert about it, and spend hours or even days (if you did a full 30 level progression on it with options) developing it to make a class on your own (Especially since you would have to develop gear for it as well).  There was no way to quickly invent your own things outside of powers (which just ended up being less powerful or overly powerful versions of already existing powers), and equipment.  Hybrids helped this but could often result in wonkey combinations that still didn't quite work without taking a bit of a hammer to them.  Not to mention that hybrid rules took a couple of years to appear as well.


As of right now for Next it is shaping up that making your own class should be rather simple.  I won't need them to give me their version of a magical gun slinger because I will be able to make it happen within the first book no problem.  Heck if there were a little bit more data available now I might be able to get one going.  Probably a combination between expertise dice and arcane magic, possibly making it so that you spend expertise dice to cast spells or perform maneuvers.  That or I wait to see how multi classing works in this edition and realize I will likely be able to make an awesome fighter/caster muslticlass that covers this character concept fairly well, with inventing guns being my only work to do, and given that this is a playtest and not a final product there is no telling if guns won't be in the final product too (but I'm fairly sure they wont be).
there is a difference between every concept and basic concepts that can be expanded upon.  The fact that I had to wait almost 2 years for a bard was annoying the 3 years for a monk was almost unacceptable.

How long do i have to wait for a magical gunslinger in AD&D?
2e?
3?
4?

At least in 4 i can reflavor.  I call that a win.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

there is a difference between every concept and basic concepts that can be expanded upon.  The fact that I had to wait almost 2 years for a bard was annoying the 3 years for a monk was almost unacceptable.

How long do i have to wait for a magical gunslinger in AD&D?
2e?
3?
4?

At least in 4 i can reflavor.  I call that a win.




And we will be able to do the same in 5e.  

Although I would rather be able to do it by using already existing game elements, such as multiclassing fighter and wizard, to make it work.

And frankly magical gunsling has been in exactly 0 editions of DnD, not counting OGL materials from 3.5e which definitely has at least 1 I'm sure (if I am incorrect about before 3.5e I will be happy to be corrected).  Like I said not all character concepts but at least the basic ones should be covered within the first book.

Also www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hexagunner_(3.5e_Class)  gunslinger 3.5e style (actually had someone play this class it was awesome).  mix that with caster in some way (highly magical weapons, or multiclassing, or gestalt rules, or slightly messing with the class to give it some casting), and you have yourself a pretty decent magical gunslinger.

Also pathfinder has a gunslinger but I haven't gotten a chance to really sit down and check out the whole thing. 
... I feel like the dicsussion of "magical gunslinging" - an example of something that, as Sleeps points out, has never been in D&D proper - totally misses the point.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
Like I said not all character concepts but at least the basic ones should be covered within the first book.

"Basic character concepts" are nothing but bias.  Some people think the monk is basic, some don't.  I think warforged, shardminds, thri kreen, and revenant should be basic.  With dwarves and elves being exotic.  But i doupt that will happen.  Either way, the word your looking for is "classic" or "tolken".


Nice link though.  I'll have to try it if i ever play 3.5 again.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

 Dirty fighting granting advantage is a controller move... 



but would that be a bad thing ?

does the rogue remain a pure striker or maybe leans more to combat control in this edition 

The devs are trapped.
Fantasy rogues are low damage tricksters, more enablers or controllers. D&D has brought the concept of rogues as selfish strikers (even if backstab was a laughable ability), conception enforced by videogames later.

The old editions thieves are built like people who work better solo, and are more useful to the group when they are not part of the group dynamics.

The devs tried to take back the rogue into the group dynamics with the 3rd edition through the only combat mechanic of the thief, backstab, that became "sneak attack" to be at least useful.

IMO, the devs should offer the fantasy and the old D&D options through schemes.
Schemes can offer their own maneuvers. The thug gains a sneak attack, another enbables allies to attacks, another add damage as a reaction to an ally attack, another can blind the enemy, and so on. A scheme could offer more than one maneuver, each having to be taken as normal maneuvers, not free.

Sneak attack could stay as it is if each scheme has its special attack maneuver. The stealth rogue could have backstab only usable when stealthed, inflicting two rounds worth of damage in one attack (as it requires one round to hide again), for example.

And I still see no reason why rogues should gain something else than four more specialized skills. Prisons are full of thieves, it can't be true if something like skill mastery exists.



I said this yesterday in one of the 100+ threads on how to fix the Rogue.
 Dirty fighting granting advantage is a controller move... 



but would that be a bad thing ?

does the rogue remain a pure striker or maybe leans more to combat control in this edition 

The devs are trapped.
Fantasy rogues are low damage tricksters, more enablers or controllers. D&D has brought the concept of rogues as selfish strikers (even if backstab was a laughable ability), conception enforced by videogames later.

The old editions thieves are built like people who work better solo, and are more useful to the group when they are not part of the group dynamics.

The devs tried to take back the rogue into the group dynamics with the 3rd edition through the only combat mechanic of the thief, backstab, that became "sneak attack" to be at least useful.

IMO, the devs should offer the fantasy and the old D&D options through schemes.
Schemes can offer their own maneuvers. The thug gains a sneak attack, another enbables allies to attacks, another add damage as a reaction to an ally attack, another can blind the enemy, and so on. A scheme could offer more than one maneuver, each having to be taken as normal maneuvers, not free.

Sneak attack could stay as it is if each scheme has its special attack maneuver. The stealth rogue could have backstab only usable when stealthed, inflicting two rounds worth of damage in one attack (as it requires one round to hide again), for example.

And I still see no reason why rogues should gain something else than four more specialized skills. Prisons are full of thieves, it can't be true if something like skill mastery exists.



You realize that prison is like college for criminals right?
Like I said not all character concepts but at least the basic ones should be covered within the first book.

"Basic character concepts" are nothing but bias.  Some people think the monk is basic, some don't.  I think warforged, shardminds, thri kreen, and revenant should be basic.  With dwarves and elves being exotic.  But i doupt that will happen.  Either way, the word your looking for is "classic" or "tolken".


Nice link though.  I'll have to try it if i ever play 3.5 again.



The main problem is everyone has a different idea of what the 'concept' is for each class. If you break it down in a more general way, what do each of the classes bring to the table in each of the editions. What concept personifies each of the core four in each edition. you have to pin that down first before you can even decide what to give each class. For me they break down like this:

Fighter - Weapon and armor master, that focuses on confrontational direct combat.
Rogue - Trickster and deceiver, focuses on getting an advantage and exploiting it.
Cleric - Code of honor, miracle worker, supporter.
Wizard - Versatile problem solver, knowledgeable, planner.
Like I said not all character concepts but at least the basic ones should be covered within the first book.

"Basic character concepts" are nothing but bias.  Some people think the monk is basic, some don't.  I think warforged, shardminds, thri kreen, and revenant should be basic.  With dwarves and elves being exotic.  But i doupt that will happen.  Either way, the word your looking for is "classic" or "tolken".


Nice link though.  I'll have to try it if i ever play 3.5 again.



I can admit that I see where your coming from (and totally agree on thrikreen I love those buggers), but as of right now for the universe we are discussing there are some very basic or fundamental, as in original or primary source, pieces we can see by looking back.  Those things are the basics of the universe because they are the original source material.  I feel that if it has been in any PHB it should be in some way represented in 5E's PHB, same with the MM (though I want this to also become a vast array of playable races) and DMG (though on the DMG I would like to see that partially transformed into a teaching tool to show problems encountered in the past such as the 5MWD and explain how to confront them).