Bad opinions about newest packet.

Me and three of my players have become really upset by recent changes so I am going to list some here.

1. We hate both the combat die and the expertise die. The players hate the extra complication and I hate that it removes modularity. Lets say as a DM I want to remove that feature, now 2 classes are broken, because so many abilities rely on that mechanic. Also one of my players feels that the expertise die significatnly limites her abiities and/or flexability as a rouge. 

2. By 0 level spells not being at-will the player who was playing the war cleric could not choose what at-will ability he wanted but instead was told what two spells could be at-will thus removing his choice.

3. As a Dm I felt the ability for a cleric to fight while simply saying a few words that heals someone 50 ft away from him removed flavor as to what a healor is, maybe this should be an optional thing for a diffrent kind of cleric. It just seams like healing coming from nowhere, easily.

4. None of us like what is going on with the experince, it seamed that first the xp you get was dropped and then the xp you need was dropped. The players liked the costs being in the thousands but felt the xp should not have been cut so much so for example the orc going from 260 to 60 maybe should have just been cut to 130.

5. The Warlock before it was cut out, we all absoulutly loved. It was a great and fun class and became a certral part of our current roleplaying.

6. As a Dm I am worried skills are becoming too integral, I understand that the rouge is a very skill based class but as it stands now if I were to choose not to use skills the change would seam so large as to not neccisarly be modular.

My players opinion on this was that getting 4 skills per class is good, and the rouge getting one or two more and/or skill mastery is fine also the skill specialist getting one more would work. However, getting four skills from a background plus a skill from classes like cleric or wizard plus the rouge getting four and skill mastery and the the skill specialist getting two skills plus the ability to increase a skill by another +2 and then increasesing skills every two levels, there is just two many places skills are coming up, it's becoming complicated and again not as modular as it could be. We like them as something you from picking your background, maybe even picking two backgrounds.

7. One of our rouges lost darkvision, I belive from the Lurker specialty no longer exsiting, however she might have been satisfied if the stealth specialists lowlight vision had been higher.
 
8. This likely doesn't matter much but also the war cleric was upset to get Bless as a first level domain spell, he wanted to fight in the name of his god not bless people.

I hope the designers read this post and also thankyou. 
Certainly some valid concerns for you and your group.  I don't necessarily agree with them all, but it's always good to get a wider sampling of what people are looking for.

I wouldn't worry too much about Warlock, other than what it will end up being when re-introduced or released.  It'll be there... we just don't know how (class, sub-class, wizard option? lots of possibilities).

I seriously disagree with the assessment of Expertise Dice.  I think it's a simple, elegant solution that offers more flexibility to a class, not less.  Rather than having a fixed class feature that's unbending, you get class options with real, useful effects, that you can choose from.  Parry, Deadly Strike, Protect,   Cleve, etc.  All very easy to implement and makes the Fighter more than a one-trick pony ("I swing my sword").  I think the 1d4 to start was a move in the right direction, too.  I am not really sure about the progression they used, but I'll give it more thought with time and use.

Giving a similar mechanic to the Rogue was good as they needed the same level of customization and flexibility... 

Unfortunately, I don't like how they implemented all the maneuvers... some are clearly better than others and a few (Sneak Attack jumps out to me) feel bludgeoned by the nerf bat.

Skills: I love me some skills... but... more for variety and characterization, not nit-picking minutia.  Seriously, spot + listen + search?  Gather Rumors restrictive feel versus  the more RP feel to Streetwise?  Even some wording Sneak instead of Stealth or Sense Motive versus Insight I don't like.  Thankfully, Skills are easy to tweak and rework without as much game mechanic impact so I expect they'll find a happy medium eventually.  But, yeah, it feels like the constricted our skills with few options while making those fewer options broader by breaking them up into smaller pieces.  It's like taking away a menu of options, but giving us the individual parts of a pot pie and calling that new meals.

Specialties I am with you on, and hopefully, they'll give us back what they seemed to be offering before... Specialties that were as much RP flavor and interesting enhancements to any class/character, than Specialties that seem tailor made for specific classes.  The Customization and Retraining are great, and needed, but I really liked the more open possibilities of previous packets.

I don't mind having cleave and deadly strike ect. availble to the fighter but when they are all dependent on one mechanic then if that mechanic was removed they would all break, but more importanly my players get confused on how it works. 

The confusion comes form both the undertsanding what the dice are, as well as doing something in battle and figuring out how much if any dice they spend. Our rouge loves to hide and sneak attack but now her improved initive and sneak attack come from a pool of dice. So doing the same thing she did before is now more complex and she is having less fun.

I can see why some people would like it, the strategy of deciding when and where to spend the dice, but it's an every single round thing and it's not an optional rule. There are still players who want a simple fighter wth no special rules.

I'd like to allow a player to simply take something like precise shot and be done with it but instead it is dependent on a rule that many other abilities are dependent on.

Honestly, if your players are struggling with decision making process or the rules, just simplify it for them. Thus...

Level 1:
Fighter - Deal an Extra 1d4 Damage on your first attack every round.
Rogue - Deal an Extra 1d4 Damage on your first attack every round if you have an ally adjacent to target or have advantage.

Level 2:
Fighter - Deal an Extra 1d6 Damage on your first attack every round.
Rogue - Deal an Extra 1d6 Damage on your first attack every round if you have an ally adjacent to target or have advantage.

Etc.

Extra maneuvers, if too much, don't need to be in the game for them.  Give them the damage bonus and move on.  It won't upset the balance cart and your players will be able to have fun without the worry that seems to be plaguing them.

If they do become comfortable with making decisions with their Expertise Dice at a later date, it would be simple enough to give them full options when the time comes.

Honestly, if your players are struggling with decision making process or the rules, just simplify it for them. Thus...

Level 1:
Fighter - Deal an Extra 1d4 Damage on your first attack every round.
Rogue - Deal an Extra 1d4 Damage on your first attack every round if you have an ally adjacent to target or have advantage.

Level 2:
Fighter - Deal an Extra 1d6 Damage on your first attack every round.
Rogue - Deal an Extra 1d6 Damage on your first attack every round if you have an ally adjacent to target or have advantage.

Etc.

Extra maneuvers, if too much, don't need to be in the game for them.  Give them the damage bonus and move on.  It won't upset the balance cart and your players will be able to have fun without the worry that seems to be plaguing them.

If they do become comfortable with making decisions with their Expertise Dice at a later date, it would be simple enough to give them full options when the time comes.


Indeed!

Some of feedback on this playtest centered on the idea that there should be a simpler fighter type, a fighting style choice that avoided manuevers in general in favor of a basic progression.

During the D&D hangout today, Mike Mearls suggested this direction may be the in the works already!
What is your motivation for wanting and even more streamlined fighter? If the extra decisions are too much, then simply always add extra damage as your chosen maneuver every round. Problem solved. You can then take the dice out and just use them for damage once a round on hits. 


The fighter has the fewest number of decisions to make I believe. All other classes are likely going to simply be too complex for the player that needs an even simpler choice. I get that it can be really helpful for extremely young players and the like to have a class with 'no choice.' However, I feel that's best left to DM land. Arguing that removing the dice breaks the class is like arguing that removing spells from a wizard breaks a wizard too. A bit of an extreme relation, but a 1st level wizard has more choices at level 1 than a fighter at level 8 with 4 maneuvers. I know a wizard is a more advanced class, but I don't really feel the fighter needs to be more streamlined. To get to level 10 you need quite a number of hours to get used to your 5 maneuvers. My two cents.

Currently running a playtest, weekly, online D&D Next Session using a virtual table system called roll20.

I see what you guys are saying and it did give me a good idea on how I could simplify it if I wanted to, but I think it is more then just in game descion making I think it's also a matter of character creation. In my experince it can be hard for someone who is new to roleplaying games and likes simplicity too even grasp what some rules are and I think the expertise dice would be a perfect example especialy given the reaction my current players, who are not completly new to it had.


As for comparing expetise dice to wizards I think thats pointless. Wizards are for those who want magic and often are choosen by people who like a more complex class. Too remove spells form a spell casting class is basicly asking to make a completly new class. Just like adding expertise dice to a simple and direct beat em up fighter is changing what that class is. Maybe expertise dice could be for a swashbuckler and it works well for the monk. Also my point about removing them has alot to do with modularity now that 3 classes are dependent on expertise dice if I wanted to remove them I have to rework material for half the game, essentialy saying removing them breaks the game. Every manuvere dependent on them and evey level and every aspect of balance would need to be considered and adpated if a DM didn't like that rule choice. I suppose at this point in the play test modularity is no longer an aim for the team.


I feel similarly about skills the more things dependent on skills, such as classes and balance, the more skills are a must and not a choice. Where as having skills come from something specfic like a class or backgrounds then you can choose to use or not use that. 


The current system is much like skills in 3.5 to remove them would be almost as hard as removing powers from 4th edition. It would change the entire game. Thats not modualrity.



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