Pack Rat - Went for it!

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Tonight I was grinding another Sealed Queue and found Pack Rat in my pool.  Initially I build a RBg deck with PR, but after finding myself at 1-1 after two rounds, I decided to try siding in to the all-in PR plan.  That's right - 39 Swamps, 1 Pack Rat.

The first time I tried it, I mulled all the way down to 1 and never saw Pack Rat.  I think this will happen about 47% of the time.

The second time I tried it, it showed up in my opening hand.  I played it T2 (on the play).  When I passed turn, my opponent played Izzet Charm and that was that.

Even though it didn't work for me tonight, I think this a viable strategy.  Has anyone else tried it?

BTW, still finished 2-2 in the tournament and got 3 packs out of it.
Owen Turtenwald wrote an article on that idea. Not that I feel like it's an original idea, but it's certainly a powerful enough card that you do that.
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As strong as it is there have to be at least a few black cards you can get that are worth running as well.  Though the mull till you see P-rat or die trying, might not be as crazy as you'd think.
Tolkein was a jerk. Seriously, what DM sends 9 Wraith Lords at a Lvl 2 party of Halflings. The only 'correct' way to play D&D is by whatever method is making the group you have at that session, have the most fun.
You make me recall an enchantment named Lost in the Woods. Someone build a deck includes 41 forest and it. But it is more reasonable for him to build such a deck.
Just was fun to try it.

In that R4 game, if he had not had Izzet Charm he would have been in a heap of trouble.

But he had it, so he wasn't.
I had forgotten about Izzet Charm as an out vs Pack Rat. Most of the outs that are maindeckable cost 3 mana. Auger Spree, Annihilating Fire, Stab Wound, Arrest, etc.
I had forgotten about Izzet Charm as an out vs Pack Rat. Most of the outs that are maindeckable cost 3 mana. Auger Spree, Annihilating Fire, Stab Wound, Arrest, etc.



I know it's a rare, but the one time I saw a turn two Pack Rat, I could not get Abrupt Decay out of my hand fast enough.

Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.

I've seen angels fall from blinding heights. But you yourself are nothing so divine. Just next in line.

191752181 wrote:
All I'm saying is, I don't really see how she goes around petrifying swords and boots and especially mirrors. How the heck does she beat a Panoptic Mirror? It makes no sense for artifacts either. Or enchantments, for that matter. "Well, you see, Jimmy cast this spell to flood the mountain, but then the gorgon just looked at the water really hard and it went away."
T2 Pack Rat is the dumbest thing you can do with it. 

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

Also, owen had double rat. 



He talks about the odds when you have double Rat but he didn't have it. Double Rat is obviously insane.
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T2 Pack Rat is the dumbest thing you can do with it. 



He was on the play against a Golgari/Selesnya build in which he hadn't seen any removal past turn four.  Why is that dumb?  The only card in that build that can halt it on turn two is rare.

Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.

I've seen angels fall from blinding heights. But you yourself are nothing so divine. Just next in line.

191752181 wrote:
All I'm saying is, I don't really see how she goes around petrifying swords and boots and especially mirrors. How the heck does she beat a Panoptic Mirror? It makes no sense for artifacts either. Or enchantments, for that matter. "Well, you see, Jimmy cast this spell to flood the mountain, but then the gorgon just looked at the water really hard and it went away."
T2 Pack Rat is the dumbest thing you can do with it. 



He was on the play against a Golgari/Selesnya build in which he hadn't seen any removal past turn four.  Why is that dumb?  The only card in that build that can halt it on turn two is rare.



This is exactly why. He lost game 1 (inferring from "on the play") against a golgari deck with removal able to be cast before turn 4. He could've stalled into a T5 rat, not particularly bad in this format since he was on the play, and activated it the turn it came out in response to your removal. I'm not going to play rat against a deck that could abrupt decay it unless i can activate it. Especially since Golgari decks are among the slower decks in RtR.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

T2 Pack Rat is the dumbest thing you can do with it. 



He was on the play against a Golgari/Selesnya build in which he hadn't seen any removal past turn four.  Why is that dumb?  The only card in that build that can halt it on turn two is rare.



This is exactly why. He lost game 1 (inferring from "on the play") against a golgari deck with removal able to be cast before turn 4. He could've stalled into a T5 rat, not particularly bad in this format since he was on the play, and activated it the turn it came out in response to your removal. I'm not going to play rat against a deck that could abrupt decay it unless i can activate it. Especially since Golgari decks are among the slower decks in RtR.



I think I misspoke or how I wrote was confusing.  I meant he hadn't seen removal that could be cast before turn four (Launch Party) and this was game three, not game two.  Abrupt Decay is Rare, so it's unlikely to assume I do have it, and I fail to see why playing it turn two and activating it turn three is worse than waiting til turn 5.

As for catowner's comment, the deck was midrangy I suppose but nothing really exciting other than Corpsejack Menace, though I did not have enough scavangers to truly make use of it.  I was really relying on my evasion creatures to finish a game.  (which is probably why I went 2-2)

Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.

I've seen angels fall from blinding heights. But you yourself are nothing so divine. Just next in line.

191752181 wrote:
All I'm saying is, I don't really see how she goes around petrifying swords and boots and especially mirrors. How the heck does she beat a Panoptic Mirror? It makes no sense for artifacts either. Or enchantments, for that matter. "Well, you see, Jimmy cast this spell to flood the mountain, but then the gorgon just looked at the water really hard and it went away."
T2 Pack Rat is the dumbest thing you can do with it. 



Way off.  The list of non-rare answers to T2 Pack Rat is very short.  On the draw it's a little more risky, but still, upside is generally going to be worth it.

In my example, had I won G2 with the all-Swamp/Rat deck, I would have likely sided back into a "normal" deck for G3, because I'm a little more nervous about the T2 play in that scenario.

As others have mentioned, waiting until Turn 5 to cast a spell is a nice way to be dead.
T2 Pack Rat is the dumbest thing you can do with it. 



Way off.  The list of non-rare answers to T2 Pack Rat is very short.  On the draw it's a little more risky, but still, upside is generally going to be worth it.




Off the top of my head, assuming your opp is on the draw, I can think of Electrickery, Izzet Charm, Golgari Charm and Ultimate Price.  (As well as a temporary answer in Dramatic Rescue).  If I'm on the draw, I may think of playing something else as the list gets wider for non-rare answers (Stab Wound, Arrest, Augur Spree, etc.).

Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.

I've seen angels fall from blinding heights. But you yourself are nothing so divine. Just next in line.

191752181 wrote:
All I'm saying is, I don't really see how she goes around petrifying swords and boots and especially mirrors. How the heck does she beat a Panoptic Mirror? It makes no sense for artifacts either. Or enchantments, for that matter. "Well, you see, Jimmy cast this spell to flood the mountain, but then the gorgon just looked at the water really hard and it went away."
T2 Pack Rat is the dumbest thing you can do with it. 



Way off.  The list of non-rare answers to T2 Pack Rat is very short.  On the draw it's a little more risky, but still, upside is generally going to be worth it.

In my example, had I won G2 with the all-Swamp/Rat deck, I would have likely sided back into a "normal" deck for G3, because I'm a little more nervous about the T2 play in that scenario.

As others have mentioned, waiting until Turn 5 to cast a spell is a nice way to be dead.



This is not a conversation. RSTNME meanst "best" by "dumbest" and you interpreted as "stupidest". You are in agreement. Turn two Pack Rat is good.

[/THREAD]
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People keep saying T2 Pack Rat, and I keep thinking Type II pack rat.
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T2 Pack Rat is the dumbest thing you can do with it. 



Way off.  The list of non-rare answers to T2 Pack Rat is very short.  On the draw it's a little more risky, but still, upside is generally going to be worth it.

In my example, had I won G2 with the all-Swamp/Rat deck, I would have likely sided back into a "normal" deck for G3, because I'm a little more nervous about the T2 play in that scenario.

As others have mentioned, waiting until Turn 5 to cast a spell is a nice way to be dead.



This is not a conversation. RSTNME meanst "best" by "dumbest" and you interpreted as "stupidest". You are in agreement. Turn two Pack Rat is good.

[/THREAD]



I hope so.
People keep saying T2 Pack Rat, and I keep thinking Type II pack rat.

You too?

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

I had forgotten about Izzet Charm as an out vs Pack Rat. Most of the outs that are maindeckable cost 3 mana. Auger Spree, Annihilating Fire, Stab Wound, Arrest, etc.



Electrickery is the best card to deal with T2 rat.
I had forgotten about Izzet Charm as an out vs Pack Rat. Most of the outs that are maindeckable cost 3 mana. Auger Spree, Annihilating Fire, Stab Wound, Arrest, etc.



Electrickery is the best card to deal with T2 rat.



I just can't bring myself to maindeck that card in this format.
I had higher hopes for electrickery when I looked over the cardlist for RtR but almost everything is at X/2 or better.  Unless you have multiple Izzet staticaster or other similar tricks, it's really not worth it.
Tolkein was a jerk. Seriously, what DM sends 9 Wraith Lords at a Lvl 2 party of Halflings. The only 'correct' way to play D&D is by whatever method is making the group you have at that session, have the most fun.
Stab Wound
Golgari Charm
Abrupt Decay
Electrickery
Mizzium Mortars
Izzet Charm
Annihalating Fire 
Arrest
Detention Sphere
etc.

At the GP when basically everyone else around me as well as my opponents were playing pack rat the consensus was a T2 rat was a stupid risk. Pack Rat is at its weakest and most vulnerable when you don't have the mana to support/activate it and your opponent has a full hand. Everyone at least played it following another creature, so their opponent would be behind on the creature play bc they'd either have to respond to the rat early, or it didn't matter because it was too late anyway. 

Of course there are exceptions, and a good player should know by G3 what the risk of playing a T2 rat is. 

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

Stab Wound
Golgari Charm
Abrupt Decay
Electrickery
Mizzium Mortars
Izzet Charm
Annihalating Fire 
Arrest
Detention Sphere
etc.

At the GP when basically everyone else around me as well as my opponents were playing pack rat the consensus was a T2 rat was a stupid risk. Pack Rat is at its weakest and most vulnerable when you don't have the mana to support/activate it and your opponent has a full hand. Everyone at least played it following another creature, so their opponent would be behind on the creature play bc they'd either have to respond to the rat early, or it didn't matter because it was too late anyway. 

Of course there are exceptions, and a good player should know by G3 what the risk of playing a T2 rat is. 



If I'm on the play, your only answer from that list at common is Electrickery.  Not too many people are MDing that card either.  I feel pretty good about that.

Stab Wound
Golgari Charm
Abrupt Decay
Electrickery
Mizzium Mortars
Izzet Charm
Annihalating Fire 
Arrest
Detention Sphere
etc.

At the GP when basically everyone else around me as well as my opponents were playing pack rat the consensus was a T2 rat was a stupid risk. Pack Rat is at its weakest and most vulnerable when you don't have the mana to support/activate it and your opponent has a full hand. Everyone at least played it following another creature, so their opponent would be behind on the creature play bc they'd either have to respond to the rat early, or it didn't matter because it was too late anyway. 

Of course there are exceptions, and a good player should know by G3 what the risk of playing a T2 rat is. 



If I'm on the play, your only answer from that list at common is Electrickery.  Not too many people are MDing that card either.  I feel pretty good about that.




Except... they get a turn after you, and then they can play a land, and then they can cast two mana cc spells... and your rat is still a 1/1...

My point is simple: most of the time, sure, a T2 rat's a great way to secure the game early on, especially when you're playing G3 and know pretty much what's lurking in your opponent's deck. But in a G1 situation there's not a lot of reason to play your bomb when it's going to be its weakest right away. A T4/T5 Pack Rat will win you as many games as a T2.  

Let's think about this.

T2: rat = 1/1 
T3: rat = 2/2, 2/2
T4: rat = 3/3, 3/3, 3/3, 
T5: rat = 4/4, 4/4, 4/4, 4/4
T6: rat = 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6
T7: rat = 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8

With the risk of losing the rat on turns 2 and 3, and being vulnerable to attackers for a couple of turns. A 100% survival rate as seen above is ridiculous of course, so realistically these numbers won't reflect actual gameplay and would be much lower.

OR

T5: rat = 2/2, 2/2
T6: rat = 4/4, 4/4, 4/4, 4/4
T7: rat = 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6

With a pretty much guarantee of having rats out on the board and stick to the board, AND you won't have made yourself vulnerable to early attackers, AND you can set up your board, letting your early drops chump block as you create more rats. Assuming, that is, you actually have more than 39 swamps in your deck.

My point is: even assuming you get rats out earlier and they stay on the board, you're still going to have some die. If for example 2 rats die over turns 3-7 it will look exactly the same as scenario 2 by turn 7.

Of course if you're on the play, scenario 1 will likely work out in your favor. Maybe my meta's different, but I almost always expect to play against cheap removal, and there's nothing really easier to kill than a vulnerable 1/1.

EDIT

This all assumes you hit your land drops, of course. 

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

I don't think you get it...

If I T2 the Rat, I pass the turn.  If they don't have Electrickery, then they need to have  an uncommon or rare answer for it right then and there, which is generally not likely, but possible.

They pass back the turn without killing the rat there, I can start making more rats, and they really can't do anything about it.

I am comfortable taking the risk that they don't have Electrickery on T2.

If I'm on the draw it's a bit more risky, but still maybe worth it.
I pretty much laid it out in my post. A T2 Pack Rat will prob net you the same amount of rats T7 as a T5 rat. Less if more than 2 die, which is likely. You're basically running the risk of having no rats versus playing it safe and guaranteeing yourself rats. It's a risk I don't feel the need to take since it pretty much comes down to a turn difference; you obviously disagree. 

I understand you're talking about being on the play. I'm talking about in general, so we're slighly whiffing here. Here's a list of things that'll stop/stall the rat in the mean time, if you're on the draw or you're on the play that cost 3 mana or less:

Azorius Arrester
Soul Tithe
Cyclonic Rift
Inaction Injunction
Stab Wound
Ultimate Price
Electrickery
Mizzium Mortars 
Street Spasm
Abrupt Decay
Auger Spree 
Detention Sphere
Dramatic Rescue
Dreadbore
Golgari Charm
Izzet Charm
Izzet Staticaster
Pithing Needle 

At some point you have to disregard that these are a lot of rares and uncommons and realize there's still a chance ONE of these is in someone's hand. 

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

Well I got Pack Rat P3P1 after drafting a straight Azorious deck, so I'm going to see how effective Pack Rat is after splashing a swamp and Transguild as the only lands to play it. It think if I improbably see a T2 Packrat play I have to take it, I'm not going to have mana to use the ability twice in one turn.

Hmmm. Well so far I won the first 4 games, but not a single one could I profitably play Pack Rat. I suppose once you are attacking your opponent with Spellsworn enchanted with Righteous Authority not much else matters. 
T2 pack rat.

They managed to have an uncommon or rare answer that they are forced to use immediatly or DIE

They succeed! Now, they get to face the rest of your deck, and are behind an uncommon/rare removal spell and their second turn play.

Unless your deck really is all in on the rat, I still don't think it's that bad to drop the rat turn 2, if you know they are likely to have answers, then maybe, but game 1? Sure, dump the rat.
Tolkein was a jerk. Seriously, what DM sends 9 Wraith Lords at a Lvl 2 party of Halflings. The only 'correct' way to play D&D is by whatever method is making the group you have at that session, have the most fun.
I would like to weigh in that I think T2 Packrat is always correct on the play. I'll have to see more Packrat T2 on the draw before I pass judgement on that. So far I got it both times my opponent played it, but it cost me a Stab Wound both times and they went on to win anyway (with Necropolis Regent)
Ack, all 7 games and my Pack Rat was never relevant. But I suppose I also lost nothing by splashing him.
Stab Wound
Golgari Charm
Abrupt Decay
Electrickery
Mizzium Mortars
Izzet Charm
Annihalating Fire 
Arrest
Detention Sphere
etc.

At the GP when basically everyone else around me as well as my opponents were playing pack rat the consensus was a T2 rat was a stupid risk. Pack Rat is at its weakest and most vulnerable when you don't have the mana to support/activate it and your opponent has a full hand. Everyone at least played it following another creature, so their opponent would be behind on the creature play bc they'd either have to respond to the rat early, or it didn't matter because it was too late anyway. 

Of course there are exceptions, and a good player should know by G3 what the risk of playing a T2 rat is. 

I will certainly not play T2 rat if I play last. But how about play first? Half of the removal you list do not work.  Electrickery is the only common card could remove rat.

On the contrary, the most stupid risk to play rat is when your oppenent would has 3 or more lands next turn and you don't have enough mana to play rat's ability.
Stab Wound
Golgari Charm
Abrupt Decay
Electrickery
Mizzium Mortars
Izzet Charm
Annihalating Fire 
Arrest
Detention Sphere
etc.

At the GP when basically everyone else around me as well as my opponents were playing pack rat the consensus was a T2 rat was a stupid risk. Pack Rat is at its weakest and most vulnerable when you don't have the mana to support/activate it and your opponent has a full hand. Everyone at least played it following another creature, so their opponent would be behind on the creature play bc they'd either have to respond to the rat early, or it didn't matter because it was too late anyway. 

Of course there are exceptions, and a good player should know by G3 what the risk of playing a T2 rat is. 



If I'm on the play, your only answer from that list at common is Electrickery.  Not too many people are MDing that card either.  I feel pretty good about that.




Except... they get a turn after you, and then they can play a land, and then they can cast two mana cc spells... and your rat is still a 1/1...

My point is simple: most of the time, sure, a T2 rat's a great way to secure the game early on, especially when you're playing G3 and know pretty much what's lurking in your opponent's deck. But in a G1 situation there's not a lot of reason to play your bomb when it's going to be its weakest right away. A T4/T5 Pack Rat will win you as many games as a T2.  

Let's think about this.

T2: rat = 1/1 
T3: rat = 2/2, 2/2
T4: rat = 3/3, 3/3, 3/3, 
T5: rat = 4/4, 4/4, 4/4, 4/4
T6: rat = 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6
T7: rat = 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8

With the risk of losing the rat on turns 2 and 3, and being vulnerable to attackers for a couple of turns. A 100% survival rate as seen above is ridiculous of course, so realistically these numbers won't reflect actual gameplay and would be much lower.

OR

T5: rat = 2/2, 2/2
T6: rat = 4/4, 4/4, 4/4, 4/4
T7: rat = 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6

With a pretty much guarantee of having rats out on the board and stick to the board, AND you won't have made yourself vulnerable to early attackers, AND you can set up your board, letting your early drops chump block as you create more rats. Assuming, that is, you actually have more than 39 swamps in your deck.

My point is: even assuming you get rats out earlier and they stay on the board, you're still going to have some die. If for example 2 rats die over turns 3-7 it will look exactly the same as scenario 2 by turn 7.

Of course if you're on the play, scenario 1 will likely work out in your favor. Maybe my meta's different, but I almost always expect to play against cheap removal, and there's nothing really easier to kill than a vulnerable 1/1.

EDIT

This all assumes you hit your land drops, of course. 

T5 rat looks great. But are you sure it always works? Supposed that you play first, you get totally 12 cards on T6 and 6 are lands. If you ever played spells on T2,3,4, you would have not enough card to make 4 rats on turn 6, let alone 6 rats on turn 7.
Stab Wound
Golgari Charm
Abrupt Decay
Electrickery
Mizzium Mortars
Izzet Charm
Annihalating Fire 
Arrest
Detention Sphere
etc.

At the GP when basically everyone else around me as well as my opponents were playing pack rat the consensus was a T2 rat was a stupid risk. Pack Rat is at its weakest and most vulnerable when you don't have the mana to support/activate it and your opponent has a full hand. Everyone at least played it following another creature, so their opponent would be behind on the creature play bc they'd either have to respond to the rat early, or it didn't matter because it was too late anyway. 

Of course there are exceptions, and a good player should know by G3 what the risk of playing a T2 rat is. 



If I'm on the play, your only answer from that list at common is Electrickery.  Not too many people are MDing that card either.  I feel pretty good about that.




Except... they get a turn after you, and then they can play a land, and then they can cast two mana cc spells... and your rat is still a 1/1...

My point is simple: most of the time, sure, a T2 rat's a great way to secure the game early on, especially when you're playing G3 and know pretty much what's lurking in your opponent's deck. But in a G1 situation there's not a lot of reason to play your bomb when it's going to be its weakest right away. A T4/T5 Pack Rat will win you as many games as a T2.  

Let's think about this.

T2: rat = 1/1 
T3: rat = 2/2, 2/2
T4: rat = 3/3, 3/3, 3/3, 
T5: rat = 4/4, 4/4, 4/4, 4/4
T6: rat = 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6
T7: rat = 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8, 8/8

With the risk of losing the rat on turns 2 and 3, and being vulnerable to attackers for a couple of turns. A 100% survival rate as seen above is ridiculous of course, so realistically these numbers won't reflect actual gameplay and would be much lower.

OR

T5: rat = 2/2, 2/2
T6: rat = 4/4, 4/4, 4/4, 4/4
T7: rat = 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6, 6/6

With a pretty much guarantee of having rats out on the board and stick to the board, AND you won't have made yourself vulnerable to early attackers, AND you can set up your board, letting your early drops chump block as you create more rats. Assuming, that is, you actually have more than 39 swamps in your deck.

My point is: even assuming you get rats out earlier and they stay on the board, you're still going to have some die. If for example 2 rats die over turns 3-7 it will look exactly the same as scenario 2 by turn 7.

Of course if you're on the play, scenario 1 will likely work out in your favor. Maybe my meta's different, but I almost always expect to play against cheap removal, and there's nothing really easier to kill than a vulnerable 1/1.

EDIT

This all assumes you hit your land drops, of course. 

T5 rat looks great. But are you sure it always works? Supposed that you play first, you get totally 12 cards on T6 and 6 are lands. If you ever played spells on T2,3,4, you would have not enough card to make 4 rats on turn 6, let alone 6 rats on turn 7.

Fair point. You don't even have to commit to all the land drops--activating the rat once per turn is enough. My point mainly focuses on the rubes saying T2 rat is always good. It's not.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

T2 Rat is the only one that has inevitability however. If you drop a T2 Rat and your opponent does not remove it before you play your third land, that is a near guarenteed win (outside Detention Sphere). L5 Rat requires you to draw 5 lands and have at least two of them produce black mana before it even has the possibility to be better than the T2 Rat. By that point you may or may not be able to build a Rat Army quickly enough to defeat your opponent, because they may have any number of things played by that point, and they have also drawn a minimum of 3 addtional cards compared to what they had on T2.

So I would have to say that T2Play Rat is always the correct play, and T2Draw Rat is still the correct play the majority of the time.
T2 Rat is the only one that has inevitability however. If you drop a T2 Rat and your opponent does not remove it before you play your third land, that is a near guarenteed win (outside Detention Sphere). L5 Rat requires you to draw 5 lands and have at least two of them produce black mana before it even has the possibility to be better than the T2 Rat. By that point you may or may not be able to build a Rat Army quickly enough to defeat your opponent, because they may have any number of things played by that point, and they have also drawn a minimum of 3 addtional cards compared to what they had on T2.

So I would have to say that T2Play Rat is always the correct play, and T2Draw Rat is still the correct play the majority of the time.



A T2 Pack Rat is only a guaranteed win if:

1. You hit your third land drop
2. Your opponent does not have cheap removal
3. You activate your rats every turn
4. Your opponent does not attack at a fast enough rate to bring you down to a low amount of life/force you to chump block with rats
5. They do not remove any rats 
6. You have cards to pitch 

There seems to be a "play rats then win" mentality here. That's ridiculous. I've played against T2 or later rats and won, and played T2 rats or later and lost, and most of the time I played a rat before T3 or 4 it died before I could do anything with it.  

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

That writeup was for T2 Rat vs L5 Rat.

1) If this is going to be an issue for T2 Rat it's going to be an even bigger problem for L5 Rat
2) This gives a slight edge to L5 Rat, but only on the draw, and only if your opponent fails to draw a second removal in their additional 3 cards (and have only one removal in their starting hand)
3) This is within the control of the player playing Pack Rat
4) T2 Rat does much better here than L5 Rat
5) Aside from removing the first Rat, T2 Rat does much better than L5 Rat
6) Again, with T2 Rat this should be within the control of the player playing Pack Rat.

But I am curious now to hear what the plan for beating T2 Play Rat is, since my plan for beating T2Draw Rat was Stab Wound

Also since half decks that went the furthest without being defeated in the last major sealed tournament featured Pack Rat, I am curious when the Pack Rats were played on average.
That writeup was for T2 Rat vs L5 Rat.

1) If this is going to be an issue for T2 Rat it's going to be an even bigger problem for L5 Rat
2) This gives a slight edge to L5 Rat, but only on the draw, and only if your opponent fails to draw a second removal in their additional 3 cards (and have only one removal in their starting hand)
3) This is within the control of the player playing Pack Rat
4) T2 Rat does much better here than L5 Rat
5) Aside from removing the first Rat, T2 Rat does much better than L5 Rat
6) Again, with T2 Rat this should be within the control of the player playing Pack Rat.

But I am curious now to hear what the plan for beating T2 Play Rat is, since my plan for beating T2Draw Rat was Stab Wound

Also since half decks that went the furthest without being defeated in the last major sealed tournament featured Pack Rat, I am curious when the Pack Rats were played on average.



Well, since I was at the GP and at the perfect-record tables (well, for several rounds) and most of what we talked about was Pack Rat and how T2 would be a dumb play G1, and my first two match losses were to Pack Rats, and based on what I saw next to me, I'd say the average play for the rat was after turn 2. 

If anything, though, GP is a different scenario. The argument "cheap removal is too scarce to consider for a T2 rat" in a situation with people are planning to play against the rat, and where cheap removal is a mainstay in good decks, contradicts what I'm assuming people are basing their opinion on, which is an FNM-like meta. Just a hunch.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

I think T2 Rats has an about 85% win rate, according to Owen. That's good enough that you have to go for it, I think.
Preparing for the M14 Prerelease - New article up! IN THE TANK - my very own blog for rambling about Magic!
Article here:

www.channelfireball.com/articles/owens-a...

He's talking about draft though. Maybe there's enough of a difference between sealed and draft to discuss that? I doubt you'll find a decklist that lead to day 2 that couldn't handle a T2 rat.

Let me be clear: I'm not saying T2 rat is always bad, I'm saying T2 rat isn't good every game in lieu of playing it later. There are 1 common, 3 uncommon, and 1 rare 2cc responses to it, which ignores the 3cc responses to it. 

 

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

I think T2 Rats has an about 85% win rate, according to Owen. That's good enough that you have to go for it, I think.



I wonder if it might even be higher than that, if you win 85% of the time you play T2 Rats via the Rats, and split the remaining games where your opponent removes the Rats that gets you over 92%.

The first two times I played against the Rats I used Stab Wound on the rats to kill them, but ended up losing both games much later to Necropolis Regent. Both of those games went on resonably long, and the second one I'm certain I could have won based on Stab Wound damage on a 3+ toughness creature. But since I couldn't afford not to kill the Rats, the Stab Wound was out of my hands.

I question why WoTC prints cards that skew Sealed Pools so dramatically. Or at the very least why they didn't make Pack Rat mythic, instead of rare. At the point you start printing cards like Pack Rat and Bloodgift Demon you start to find the the top sealed decks at the major events all contain at least one copy of that card.
I think T2 Rats has an about 85% win rate, according to Owen. That's good enough that you have to go for it, I think.



I wonder if it might even be higher than that, if you win 85% of the time you play T2 Rats via the Rats, and split the remaining games where your opponent removes the Rats that gets you over 92%.

The first two times I played against the Rats I used Stab Wound on the rats to kill them, but ended up losing both games much later to Necropolis Regent. Both of those games went on resonably long, and the second one I'm certain I could have won based on Stab Wound damage on a 3+ toughness creature. But since I couldn't afford not to kill the Rats, the Stab Wound was out of my hands.

I question why WoTC prints cards that skew Sealed Pools so dramatically. Or at the very least why they didn't make Pack Rat mythic, instead of rare. At the point you start printing cards like Pack Rat and Bloodgift Demon you start to find the the top sealed decks at the major events all contain at least one copy of that card.



Think this happened last weekend at PTQ Lubbock.  We had a local guy make it to the finals, but he lost when he was unable to race Pack Rat effectively.

Just because your opponent will sometimes have one of the five answers to a T2 Pack Rat does not mean that it was not the correct play.