(102912) So wizards shoot with crossbows again...

If I got this correct Wizards now have to memorize Level 0 spells again.

And now these are only at-will if you have the correct wizard's tradition.

Which basically means an illusionist has to rely on crossbows again as he doesn't want to go into melee to deliver shocking graps every round being the most squishy one. And since "color spray" is an area spell, you can't use it all the time unless you want to hit your allies, too.

Wow... oO

When WotC announced that we'd get Wizard tradition, I guess everybody expected to get these ONTOP of what the Wizard had before... which sounded just about right.



And the fun speciality of Magic-user has been nerfed to oblivion... that's sad.
It was obviously totally broken to cast LIGHT or DETECT MAGIC at will by other classes. Meh.

And where's the necromancer? 


(and the pub crawler btw?)


Yup, crossbows for illusionist.

Lot's of things seemed to be nerfed.  Fighters, and rogues are down a good bit too.

I imagine necromancers to come later. 

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s to intentionally miss with
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my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

My guess is they're trying to decentralize combat. It would also explain the non-combat maneuvers they gave fighters.

Edit. You can still have a ranged at-will spell, if you're a high elf. 
Awesome, I'm glad that a wizard will finally get to use a crossbow again.  It feels like it's been ages since that's really been supported.

And if it's only some wizards who get to use the crossbow, while others can still fire attack spells every round, then that seems like a fair compromise to me Cool

The metagame is not the game.

ummm... I dont think I have ever played an illusionish who used a bunch of combat spells.  My illusionist always played the part of the trickster and manipulator.  In combat I normally used spells to trick, intimidate, or disorient my opponents.  So far the illusionist seems to be that sort of spellcaster.  If I am playing an illusionist and I am casting combat spells constantly (burning hands, magic missile, fireball, etc) then I am not really playing an illusionist.
Stupid out of genre weapon... honestly... where in hell did somebody come up with crossbows.
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At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

HELP!  IF I MAKE A DECISION TO DO SOMETHING I DON'T LIKE, I'LL HAVE TO DO SOMETHING I DON'T LIKE!
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I mean make em hit with a proper desparation tool.. a dagger or a stick.. ummm staff (ok Gandalf can have his sword too).
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I'm gonna go oldschool basic here and say dagger only.   Maybe 1st Ed dagger/dart/staff (pick one).
HELP!  IF I MAKE A DECISION TO DO SOMETHING I DON'T LIKE, I'LL HAVE TO DO SOMETHING I DON'T LIKE!



While I totally get and agree with the spirit of the post, I am firmly on the side of, "wizard contributions should be thematically appropriate. If I wanted to shoot crossbows I would play a marksman." I have said this before, I don't care if mechanically I am using a flashy crossbow that hits for half the damage of an actual crossbow, I just want to feel like a wizard without having to do big spells every round. Keep vancian system, penalize me for poor resource management, but don't take away the feel of my class. There can still be mechanics that force one to be carefui with their resource management without taking away the thematic feel.
For an illusionist it is thematically appropriate to use illusions and the like to effect combat, and not be launching magical fire, lightning, and ice at their enemies.  Just as with the battle mage it is appropriate for them to be launching magical fire, ice, and lightning at their enemies.  If my illusionist is iching to do damage then why am I playing an illusionist?
Is it too much to ask for a wizard to have?


1st; magic missile, magic attack, 1d6+int damage, 100ft range, at-will

2nd; mage strike, magic attack, attack with your staff for 1d8+int damage,melee,  at-will


too overpowered??

HELP!  IF I MAKE A DECISION TO DO SOMETHING I DON'T LIKE, I'LL HAVE TO DO SOMETHING I DON'T LIKE!



While I totally get and agree with the spirit of the post, I am firmly on the side of, "wizard contributions should be thematically appropriate. If I wanted to shoot crossbows I would play a marksman." I have said this before, I don't care if mechanically I am using a flashy crossbow that hits for half the damage of an actual crossbow, I just want to feel like a wizard without having to do big spells every round. Keep vancian system, penalize me for poor resource management, but don't take away the feel of my class. There can still be mechanics that force one to be carefui with their resource management without taking away the thematic feel.



hand crossbows can be cool
There are for instance a 3.rd level spells there create lots of projectiles with the flaming ability
That makes for great bolts when fighting against trolls there need to be killed by fire or mumies with fire vulnerability or if you for instance wanted to start a fire in the distance
maybe you made some alchemical substance to put on your bolts or ...
I reckon Shocking Grasp is a placeholder for a truely "illusion-y" combat spell, like Dazzle, Daze, Beguiling Strands, or Hypnotism.

I mean, seriously. Shocking Grasp? How the hell is that illusion-like?

hand crossbows can be cool



I think they are cool, and I don't care. If I wanted to use them, I would pull out one of my archetypal character concepts that would make use of them. I don't play a wizard to shoot arrows. I play a wizard to play with magic, and in macrocosm explore the idea of magic as metaphor.

There are for instance a 3.rd level spells there create lots of projectiles with the flaming ability
That makes for great bolts when fighting against trolls there need to be killed by fire or mumies with fire vulnerability or if you for instance wanted to start a fire in the distance
maybe you made some alchemical substance to put on your bolts or ...



See that's what at-will burning hands is for. That little joke aside, here you're still using magic to contribute. The wizard magicing up some weapons and then using them is fine. But I am not a damn crossbowman. I am not a glorified fancy-dressed archer. I am a wielder of the arcane arts. Btw am I the only one who thinks at will burning hands at level 1 is a terrible, unbalancing idea? At least for that one level? That really feels like the designers are asking for trouble.
For an illusionist it is thematically appropriate to use illusions and the like to effect combat, and not be launching magical fire, lightning, and ice at their enemies.  Just as with the battle mage it is appropriate for them to be launching magical fire, ice, and lightning at their enemies.  If my illusionist is iching to do damage then why am I playing an illusionist?



For sure, for sure.
I reckon Shocking Grasp is a placeholder for a truely "illusion-y" combat spell, like Dazzle, Daze, Beguiling Strands, or Hypnotism.


I agree i don't think it will last.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

hand crossbows can be cool



I think they are cool, and I don't care. If I wanted to use them, I would pull out one of my archetypal character concepts that would make use of them. I don't play a wizard to shoot arrows. I play a wizard to play with magic, and in macrocosm explore the idea of magic as metaphor.

There are for instance a 3.rd level spells there create lots of projectiles with the flaming ability
That makes for great bolts when fighting against trolls there need to be killed by fire or mumies with fire vulnerability or if you for instance wanted to start a fire in the distance
maybe you made some alchemical substance to put on your bolts or ...



See that's what at-will burning hands is for. That little joke aside, here you're still using magic to contribute. The wizard magicing up some weapons and then using them is fine. But I am not a damn crossbowman. I am not a glorified fancy-dressed archer. I am a wielder of the arcane arts. Btw am I the only one who thinks at will burning hands at level 1 is a terrible, unbalancing idea? At least for that one level? That really feels like the designers are asking for trouble.



Depends, if the wizard had to give up daily spell slots for vancian magic, yes, then I would be against it.
If a wizard did not have to give up vancian magic daily slots, well, fine with me, you can have that at will
If there was several magic traditons were one of them was Vancian with more dailies than the one having some at will. fine with me, old FR lore do list a large number of different magic traditions
(the ordinary one in the north, the southern one, the eastern lands (mulhorand having own magic god)), kara-tur having it's own magic-tradition and so forth

If I got this correct Wizards now have to memorize Level 0 spells again.

And now these are only at-will if you have the correct wizard's tradition.

Which basically means an illusionist has to rely on crossbows again as he doesn't want to go into melee to deliver shocking graps every round being the most squishy one. And since "color spray" is an area spell, you can't use it all the time unless you want to hit your allies, too.

Wow... oO

When WotC announced that we'd get Wizard tradition, I guess everybody expected to get these ONTOP of what the Wizard had before... which sounded just about right.


A melee attack, like Shocking Grasp, is idiotic for most Wizards to have. It shouldnt even be on a standard Wizard spell list. Give the illusionist a psychic-damage distance spell attack, atwill.



Re the crossbow thing. I dislike it because it is nonmagic, and I will never use it. The Advanced D&D editions lacked proficiency with a crossbow, so it is non-iconic anyway.

That said, for players who choose it, maybe theres a specialty that can use the crossbow. Or, multiclass as a Fighter to get some martial proficiencies with a crossbow.

Im all for a xbow using mage if thats their build concept but not as default, some mix and match modules for different builds would be nice - say you could pick three or something

Offensive Casting magic
Illusion Casting magic
Defensive casting magic
Ritualist magic
Enchanting and charms -- (creating magic items)
Advanced weapon training --  (allows martial weapons)
Advanced armor training  -- (allows leather and ringmail (yay a use for ringmail!!))


so if i want my pure caster i go offensive + defensive + ritualistic to start with

or if i want a hybrid i go offensive + advanced weapon + advanced amor and get a battle mage

These would stack on top of the base wizard modual so you were not ruined if you chose x or y but you could stap together a build like lego that suited your character.




 
If I got this correct Wizards now have to memorize Level 0 spells again.

And now these are only at-will if you have the correct wizard's tradition.

Which basically means an illusionist has to rely on crossbows again as he doesn't want to go into melee to deliver shocking graps every round being the most squishy one. And since "color spray" is an area spell, you can't use it all the time unless you want to hit your allies, too.

Wow... oO

When WotC announced that we'd get Wizard tradition, I guess everybody expected to get these ONTOP of what the Wizard had before... which sounded just about right.


A melee attack, like Shocking Grasp, is idiotic for most Wizards to have. It shouldnt even be on a standard Wizard spell list. Give the illusionist a psychic-damage distance spell attack, atwill.



Re the crossbow thing. I dislike it because it is nonmagic, and I will never use it. The Advanced D&D editions lacked proficiency with a crossbow, so it is non-iconic anyway.

That said, for players who choose it, maybe theres a specialty that can use the crossbow. Or, multiclass as a Fighter to get some martial proficiencies with a crossbow.




From a pure mechanics point of view, shocking grasp vs a ranged at will makes no sense sure. But a Wizard learning a close quarters combat spell makes a ton of logical sense.
My two copper.
If I got this correct Wizards now have to memorize Level 0 spells again.

And now these are only at-will if you have the correct wizard's tradition.

Which basically means an illusionist has to rely on crossbows again as he doesn't want to go into melee to deliver shocking graps every round being the most squishy one. And since "color spray" is an area spell, you can't use it all the time unless you want to hit your allies, too.

Wow... oO

When WotC announced that we'd get Wizard tradition, I guess everybody expected to get these ONTOP of what the Wizard had before... which sounded just about right.


A melee attack, like Shocking Grasp, is idiotic for most Wizards to have. It shouldnt even be on a standard Wizard spell list. Give the illusionist a psychic-damage distance spell attack, atwill.



Re the crossbow thing. I dislike it because it is nonmagic, and I will never use it. The Advanced D&D editions lacked proficiency with a crossbow, so it is non-iconic anyway.

That said, for players who choose it, maybe theres a specialty that can use the crossbow. Or, multiclass as a Fighter to get some martial proficiencies with a crossbow.




From a pure mechanics point of view, shocking grasp vs a ranged at will makes no sense sure. But a Wizard learning a close quarters combat spell makes a ton of logical sense.

A melee range spell only makes sense if:
• the spell increases the number of Wizard hitpoints
• AND the spell increases the Wizard AC
• AND the spell is a magic attack (instead of a weapon attack)
• AND the magic attack uses the Intelligence bonus
• AND pushes the melee target away - or allows the Wizard to teleport - out of melee range

In other words, it is pretty illogical for a Wizard to ever be in melee combat. Use the action to go beyond reach to safety.



A gish - as opposed to a mage - is different concept, and requires a different build.  

But the spell itself could be useful for other builds/classes, could it not?

Even if the typical Wizard won't use it, that's not necessarily reason enough to remove it from the list.



Furthermore, people are reading way, way too much into the specific configurations of spells.  This is the first crack at varying casting styles for the Wizard.  Focus more on the system than on the specifics.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
But the spell itself could be useful for other builds/classes, could it not?

Even if the typical Wizard won't use it, that's not necessarily reason enough to remove it from the list.



Furthermore, people are reading way, way too much into the specific configurations of spells.  This is the first crack at varying casting styles for the Wizard.  Focus more on the system than on the specifics.



+1
My two copper.
Overall, I just don't like the idea that some 0 level spells will be "At Will" for a tradition and others not.  To me, that makes the minor spells overly complicated.   Having to account for which spells I need to burn and use as daily spells and which spells are "at will" doesn't really add to the game.    I would think that most cantrips, if you learn and prepare them, could be cast any time.   Any wizard should be able to "read magic" or make "light" pretty much at will.  

I don't mind the other stuff...like extra spell slot, or signature spell, or special ability with certain spells.  

A Brave Knight of WTF

 

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Detect magic to detect at-will anything non magically hidden if it has something magic on it is is effectively OP.

Detect magic is enough to detect our stealthed characters with magic items on them. And it's a 0-level spell…
This may sound odd but I think a crossbow is more thematically appropriate for a wizard than burning hands for your at will attack.  I don't want to do something magical every round it cheapens the magic when you do it IMO.  For me the thematic feeling of magic in the D&D setting is one where the magic from spellcasting is rare due to its limited use.  Throwing spells every round takes that feeling away and makes the limited use spells seem less impressive when used.  
I mean make em hit with a proper desparation tool.. a dagger or a stick.. ummm staff (ok Gandalf can have his sword too).


Well, Gandalf's a lesser divinity.... he can do what he damned well pleases.
Agree with Ahglock A crossbow is more in theme. Im kinda bias. Love ranged combat, no love for pew pew.
Awesome, I'm glad that a wizard will finally get to use a crossbow again.  It feels like it's been ages since that's really been supported.

And if it's only some wizards who get to use the crossbow, while others can still fire attack spells every round, then that seems like a fair compromise to me

Every wizard tradition can use a crossbow equally well. There is nothing stopping every wizard who wants to from using a crossbow. Illusionists are no better at crossbow use than anybody else.
Overall, I just don't like the idea that some 0 level spells will be "At Will" for a tradition and others not.  To me, that makes the minor spells overly complicated.   Having to account for which spells I need to burn and use as daily spells and which spells are "at will" doesn't really add to the game.    I would think that most cantrips, if you learn and prepare them, could be cast any time.   Any wizard should be able to "read magic" or make "light" pretty much at will.  

I don't mind the other stuff...like extra spell slot, or signature spell, or special ability with certain spells.  

I think that once you're actually playing the character, that's the sort of thing that becomes second nature pretty quickly. It's (probably) not like it's the sort of thing that's constantly changing; week in and week out you play the same guy and the spells you can use at-will are always the same. I agree that it's not exactly the most elegant thing in the world to have some spells of the same level as other spells behave differently, but I don't think it's much of a memory issue or anything once you're actually in the field.

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No, crossbows are definitely not in theme for a wizard. It isn't even arguable. While you might personally like a more weapons-based feel for a character, there is absolutely nothing about the "wizard" theme that even remotely suggests crossbows. A fantasy wizard is more likely to hit people with a stick or throw pine cones than use a crossbow.

The thing is, at-will spells aren't even a matter of game balance. Whether you're using a crossbow or a spell is irrelevant to balance if your average damage per round is the same either way. However, the mechanics are slightly different for an at will spell (which is good, it varies the play experience), and it is also magic, which is what people want when they play wizards. While a person should certainly be able to build an archer mage or whatever, it should not be something you have no choice but to do.
This may sound odd but I think a crossbow is more thematically appropriate for a wizard than burning hands for your at will attack.  



Yes it sounds like you are from mars... Wizards in myth and legend - crossbow NO... staff, dagger.. and sword even yes... and thats where they arent burning it with wizards fire. I am going to go watch the legend of the seeker now.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I don't want to do something magical every round it cheapens the magic when you do it IMO.  For me the thematic feeling of magic in the D&D setting is one where the magic from spellcasting is rare due to its limited use.  Throwing spells every round takes that feeling away and makes the limited use spells seem less impressive when used.  


That ship has sailed. Gamers and their expectations have changed over the years and the idea that you play a wizard that only rarely uses magic is not the current thinking. Most systems and games have moved away from that, just like the've moved away from slowly gaining abilities that make you feel like your class and instead front-loading of these abilities is now the way to go.
I mean make em hit with a proper desparation tool.. a dagger or a stick.. ummm staff (ok Gandalf can have his sword too).


Well, Gandalf's a lesser divinity.... he can do what he damned well pleases.



Smokescreen : Every example wizard mentioned in the phb of 2e were either gods,demigods or half devils ... ie what does that have to do with it.  

Crossbows are anti-thematic and I dont see any examples of crossbow toating wizards of any nature.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

That ship has sailed. Gamers and their expectations have changed over the years and the idea that you play a wizard that only rarely uses magic is not the current thinking. Most systems and games have moved away from that, just like the've moved away from slowly gaining abilities that make you feel like your class and instead front-loading of these abilities is now the way to go.

Obviously, it hasn't sailed for everyone.  Some people are still on that boat, and some people have given up on boats and would rather have a flying carpet or something.

The point is, under the current implementation, both sides should be happy.  Don't want to use a crossbow? Specialize in something that gives you an at-will combat spell.  Do you want your magic to seem more magical?  Specialize in something less combat-oriented.  What's not to like?


The metagame is not the game.

For me, I want the Wizard to have zero martial weapon proficiencies.

Then, let players easily swap one of the cantrips for a weapon proficiency instead.
Since this problem mostly applies to the Illusionist (Battle Mage can get by with shocking grasp), my question for common Illusionist players is this.

How do you use your at-wills effectively in combat?

There are clearly a multitude of things that can be done with minor illusion, but there are no codified rules for using it as a combat spell. Sure you can make a big scary looking dude to scare off the kobolds, but what rules do you use? What happens to the enemies (flee, cower, surrender, fight harder... how do you pick)? Does it apply conditions? Is there a save? If so what DC do you use (at-will that applies conditions and has a scaling DC is very powerful)?

I would love to make an Illusionist who never makes a damage roll but is still contributing his fair share to a fight (although players splitting efforts between win by doing damage and win by not doing damage could cause problems, but that is another issue), but there need to be codified rules for using such powers in combat. At the very least there should be some examples of how to use Minor Illusion in combat so that we have a baseline for the power level and can modify it from there.

I guess the response I am looking for is how have people done this in the past (examples) and how do they think it should be done in the future.

 
Detect magic to detect at-will anything non magically hidden if it has something magic on it is is effectively OP.

Detect magic is enough to detect our stealthed characters with magic items on them. And it's a 0-level spell…



I've been playing Pathfinder for some time now and I've never had a problem with at-will cantrips. You make it sound like having at-will detect magic makes it trivial to notice hidden characters, but you're missing a very important thing: in order for the character to detect a hidden person who happens to have magic on them, he has to first suspect that someone hidden is nearby. Detect magic has always required concentration. It is not a passive ability.

I agree that the wizard class took a severe beating this go around.  The plentiful at-wills were great, fun, and did not hurt anything:  I don't want to go back to a world where a wizard has to track (more bookkeeping) spells that are basically useless to only have access to once.  I can command the heavens to shift and the earth to crumble, but I can only light a torch once before I have to sleep for 8 hours?  ...Nah.


The total spell slot count being lowered also hurt - a lot.  It absolutely isn't worth trading  an entire spell slot of each spell level (and the minor at-wills) for one pre-chosen encounter spell.  The end result is a wizard with fewer options each battle.  As I said in another thread, you know what a wizard who casts burning hands every combat is? A crappy fighter without expertise dice.  Fighters already complained that doing the same thing over and over isn't fun; I'm not sure why they decided the wizard should try doing that.


This is the first playtest where some of the ideas are so backwards compared to the direction I thought they were going that I have no interest in actually testing them.  Taking away infinite zero-level spells for wizards and clerics is something that I just don't care about.  I already know what that's like - I already played 3rd ed. - and I already know what I think about that.

I agree that the wizard class took a severe beating this go around.

As did the fighter.  And the rogue.

Only class i havn't seen a "why did i get nerfed" thread for is the cleric.

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Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I agree that the wizard class took a severe beating this go around.

As did the fighter.  And the rogue.

Only class i havn't seen a "why did i get nerfed" thread for is the cleric.


To be fair, the cleric had his spells slots reduced and his at wills diminished just like the wiz, and didn't even get encounter spells to compensate. But I guess that words of power spells are such a big improvement for clerics that nobody really noticed the nerfs. They were nerfed too, though.