Seriously, is 2 spells a level max what I'm reading here?

Seriously, am I missing some bonus based on atribute or something that moves this from imho total game breaking fail to something that is just really poor?

really 2 spells, at level 10 a cleric has only enough wisdom of the gods to learn 2 spells of level 1, man they should have avoided drinking all the wine at confession then!

Please tell me im wrong here! 
Don't complain, the cleric has armor, weapons, and HP to help him get on with things. The wizard has the same limits.

That said the removal of at-will spells was not needed. 
That doesnt make it better, it makes it worse.

 
Frankly I'd call it only fair after all the crap people got for wanting to play warriors that didn't suck.

But from a  game design standpoint I think the scaling is off on the spells per day.

I'd say more lower level spell slots, but fewer higher level.

For example a level 10 cleric should get 3 per day of levels 1 and 2, 2 per day for levels 3 and 4, and one at 5th level.

And a freaking at-will or two. 
Frankly I'd call it only fair after all the crap people got for wanting to play warriors that didn't suck.

But from a  game design standpoint I think the scaling is off on the spells per day.

I'd say more lower level spell slots, but fewer higher level.

For example a level 10 cleric should get 3 per day of levels 1 and 2, 2 per day for levels 3 and 4, and one at 5th level.

And a freaking at-will or two. 

Yeah that was kind of what I was expecting, actually I much, much perfer 4e magic system but anyway - maybe primary attribute giving bonus spells 

really its far to close to a bad verison of 3.5e for me, its hard to offer suggestions they feel like lipstick on a pig atm.
 
You still get your lower level spells, and aside from damage values, the way that saves no longer scale mean that you can still make excellent use of those lower-level spells against higher-level targets.

Although it is kind of weird that some spells remain useful while others just take up space - I guess they're better than falling back to at-will powers, though.

The metagame is not the game.

I kind of like it.  Spells per day is not much of a limit if you get more than this.  This is still too much for campaigns that center around 1 encounter per day, but it is better than before.  I would have liked them to try out some other method of curtailing the novas like a cool down between spells but this is better than nothing.  
Looks fair to limiting to me, dislike it very much.  All you are doing is reducing a casters options, they need to take the most effective spells they can, all times - and when they are out after 2 casts of a spell they are down to spaming their few at-wills, thats really freaking boring.
Where as I find that really fun.  Holding your power in reserve for the right moment is much more entertaining to me than just throwing spell after spell without having to worry about running out.  
Where as I find that really fun.  Holding your power in reserve for the right moment is much more entertaining to me than just throwing spell after spell without having to worry about running out.  

There is a big difference between 2 spells and being able to throw unlimited spells about.

Holding your power to the right moment might also turn out to be the wrong moment, now your at 50% of your power, no fault of your own.

 I struggle to see how casting magic missile every encounter just in case its not the correct one to blow your 2 spells can be more fun than being able to actually cast magic during a fight as a cleric or wizard.  

lets strip out fighters and rogues so they get 2 abilities to use each day too because we dont want any class here to have any fun! 
Where as I find that really fun.  Holding your power in reserve for the right moment is much more entertaining to me than just throwing spell after spell without having to worry about running out.  

There is a big difference between 2 spells and being able to throw unlimited spells about.

Holding your power to the right moment might also turn out to be the wrong moment, now your at 50% of your power, no fault of your own.

 I struggle to see how casting magic missile every encounter just in case its not the correct one to blow your 2 spells can be more fun than being able to actually cast magic during a fight as a cleric or wizard.  

lets strip out fighters and rogues so they get 2 abilities to use each day too because we dont want any class here to have any fun! 



Hey everyone likes different things.  I had plenty of fun as a level 1 magic user back in the day and you didn't get at wills and my level 1 cleric didn't even have spells yet in basic.  I was fine slinging stones until I rthought we really needed my spells, and if I was wrong well damn I screwed up, and even that was fun.  

Looks fair to limiting to me, dislike it very much.  All you are doing is reducing a casters options, they need to take the most effective spells they can, all times - and when they are out after 2 casts of a spell they are down to spaming their few at-wills, thats really freaking boring.


Few At-Wills? Kinda depends, I guess. Academic Wizards get to cast any prepared Cantrip at-will (3 at level 1, 4 Cantrips afterwards), and I think it's a fairly good list. They also get one extra spell slot of the highest spell level they can cast, expanding their options. Although to be honest, I think it could afford to be one extra spell slot for every spell level, but I'd have to crunch some numbers, and I'm not that kind of guy.


Sure, the the Battle Magic and Illusion traditions have a more limited selection of At-Wills, but I think their extra bonuses (not hitting allies with spells or getting a +2 bonus on DCs) make up for that. EDIT: And the At-Wills they get are nothing to sneeze at, on top of being thematic, really.



Few At-Wills? Kinda depends, I guess. Academic Wizards get to cast any prepared Cantrip at-will (3 at level 1, 4 Cantrips afterwards), and I think it's a fairly good list. They also get one extra spell slot of the highest spell level they can cast, expanding their options. Although to be honest, I think it could afford to be one extra spell slot for every spell level, but I'd have to crunch some numbers, and I'm not that kind of guy.



To do that, you'd need to allow the Signature Spells of the other schools to scale somehow. There'd be no comparison on whih tradition is best otherwise.

This is one change I actually like...


Few At-Wills? Kinda depends, I guess. Academic Wizards get to cast any prepared Cantrip at-will (3 at level 1, 4 Cantrips afterwards), and I think it's a fairly good list. They also get one extra spell slot of the highest spell level they can cast, expanding their options. Although to be honest, I think it could afford to be one extra spell slot for every spell level, but I'd have to crunch some numbers, and I'm not that kind of guy.



To do that, you'd need to allow the Signature Spells of the other schools to scale somehow. There'd be no comparison on whih tradition is best otherwise.




Well, Thunderwave can be scaled. Color Spray can't, but then again, it deals effects that can be useful at any level. :/

Welcome to the 150-second workday!
I think 10 spells a day (plus 0-level/at-wills) at 10th level is plenty.
Me too.

Danny

18 spells plus at wills and a signature spell?

How many do you really need? If you can't shepherd that through 5-6 encounters, you're casting way too often.
Me too. The wizard has at-wills and 'encounter' spells to counter having less dailies. This way the wizard doesn't have infinite spells at 20th level - and all the non combat ones can be shifted to rituals.
The cleric also has at wills - I'd like to see a blasty one. The clerics probably need the most hand now. No encounter spells for them.
Me too. The wizard has at-wills and 'encounter' spells to counter having less dailies. This way the wizard doesn't have infinite spells at 20th level - and all the non combat ones can be shifted to rituals.
The cleric also has at wills - I'd like to see a blasty one. The clerics probably need the most hand now. No encounter spells for them.
Me too. The wizard has at-wills and 'encounter' spells to counter having less dailies. This way the wizard doesn't have infinite spells at 20th level - and all the non combat ones can be shifted to rituals. The cleric also has at wills - I'd like to see a blasty one. The clerics probably need the most hand now. No encounter spells for them.

Yes, but the cleric is armored, shield-bearing and wailing on the opposition with a mace.

It's a fair trade.

Danny

18 spells plus at wills and a signature spell?

How many do you really need? If you can't shepherd that through 5-6 encounters, you're casting way too often.

sorry, how do you get 18 spells plus signature at level 10?

 
18 spells plus at wills and a signature spell? How many do you really need? If you can't shepherd that through 5-6 encounters, you're casting way too often.

sorry, how do you get 18 spells plus signature at level 10?

 

There's 14 listed on the Spells Per Day table (Classes, page 11), and you can cast 4 of them multiple times (5 if you consider the Signature Spell).

Danny

18 spells plus at wills and a signature spell? How many do you really need? If you can't shepherd that through 5-6 encounters, you're casting way too often.

sorry, how do you get 18 spells plus signature at level 10?

 

There's 14 listed on the Spells Per Day table (Classes, page 11), and you can cast 4 of them multiple times.


You mean the 4 at will cantrips + 10 up to level 10

so how does that add up to 18 + signature spell 
18 spells plus at wills and a signature spell? How many do you really need? If you can't shepherd that through 5-6 encounters, you're casting way too often.

sorry, how do you get 18 spells plus signature at level 10?

 

There's 14 listed on the Spells Per Day table (Classes, page 11), and you can cast 4 of them multiple times.



That and your signature spell has to take up a spell slot.
18 spells plus at wills and a signature spell? How many do you really need? If you can't shepherd that through 5-6 encounters, you're casting way too often.

sorry, how do you get 18 spells plus signature at level 10?

 

There's 14 listed on the Spells Per Day table (Classes, page 11), and you can cast 4 of them multiple times.


You mean the 4 at will cantrips + 10 up to level 10

so how does that add up to 18 + signature spell 

I didn't say it equaled 18 + signature, I said it equaled 14 and you can cast 4 of them multiple times (5 if you count Signature Spell).

Danny

I kind of like it.  Spells per day is not much of a limit if you get more than this.  This is still too much for campaigns that center around 1 encounter per day, but it is better than before.  I would have liked them to try out some other method of curtailing the novas like a cool down between spells but this is better than nothing.  





well, if you run campaigns like me there will easily have 5 to 8 or more encounters in a day, well then 5e will not be the game for you if they make spells per day based upon the assumption that people will only have a few encounters per day.

I have not read any of the playtest packages since I am planning to stick to 3.5 or 3.75 (pathfinder) and i will avoid commenting on what they have included of spell amount in the 5e since i do not really know the power of spells in the 5e spell packages, but i do know, that it is a deal breaker if

There is not enough spells (learned and able to me memorized) to give the intellectual challenge of considering. What spell tools will be needed for todays expected work

There is not enough vancian spell slots to give the feeling, that spellcasting is a question of clever resource management. It is not clever resource management to have an old signature spell you can cast every encounter.

Resource management, is stuff like. In this battle do i just use flasks with burning oil to create tactical advantages for the group or a single low level low damage spell to take out the creature there threatened me since the melee characters seems to have the fight under control. Magic ought to be saved to the big boss fights or battles were we get into serious problems and nead serious firepower or situations were we really want to stop someone from fleeing (enemy with information or magical items)

It does not sound as if 5e will be able to give that feeling and that is a deal breaker for me, but it is not a problem. I have so much roleplaying material on the bookshelves that it can last a lifetime. More material is just a low to medium priority nice to have.
yes you get only 2 spells per level.
but you can also cast certain spells as rituals.

The folowing spells can not be cast as rituals at this point, but is see no reaseon why not.
though some should have a high component cost when cast as ritual making it more apealing to prepare the spell then cast the ritual.

create water
cure wounds ( should heve extreme component cost not to unbalance healing as intended)
daylight
death ward
disguise self
invisibility
lesser restoration
light
rope trick
spider climb
water breathing

if they made it so that these could be cast as rituals then your spell slots are basicly dedicated to combat spells and utility you want to be able to cast very fast.
 
yes you get only 2 spells per level.
but you can also cast certain spells as rituals.

The folowing spells can not be cast as rituals at this point, but is see no reaseon why not.
though some should have a high component cost when cast as ritual making it more apealing to prepare the spell then cast the ritual.

create water
cure wounds ( should heve extreme component cost not to unbalance healing as intended)
daylight
death ward
disguise self
invisibility
lesser restoration
light
rope trick
spider climb
water breathing

if they made it so that these could be cast as rituals then your spell slots are basicly dedicated to combat spells and utility you want to be able to cast very fast.
 



A system both including rituals and  daily spell slots is less interesting for a person like me compared to a system with daily spell slots but with more spell slots since it is the intellectual challenge of choosing what spells there will be needed and when to use them there is the interesting part.

I do not mind, if they make the wizard in such a way that different spell traditions exist and that a wizard can choose
some at will, a signature spell as encounter, some spell slots and some dailies plus some rituals
or
more dailies and the rituals
or even more dailies but rituals has to be used in memorised spell slots.

The game master then could decide, in my campaign do the following magic tradition not exist.
It is just, that for an old FR fan like me, are there actually place for having more spell traditions with differences in casting style since
There is the northern ordinary magic tradition
There is the souhtern one there is different
There is Elven magic tradition
There is logically an Eastern one (since mulhorand has it's own magic god)
Maztica has 2 (hishna and pluma magic)
Kara-tur has one (based on the 5 elements (air, water, earth, fire and WOOD))
Zakhara has one (based on elements, I seem to remember one of them is sand)
and so forth

Even though I have my clear preference, would I just say, well, the other ones would be some of those other magic traditions there is part of the old FR lore.
Like i posted somewhere before, my preference is for more magic that gets more specific in its application the higher up so that arcane and divine casters gain tatical choices rather than having a level 5 spell always be better than level 1.
 
I was once in a 3E game where my sorcerer had exhausted all her spells for the day, used up her wand of fireball, and had used up all the spells her mentor had placed in the Staff of Storing her gave to her.  Why?  The DM would not let us rest long enough to replenish spells.  I was reduced to plinking away with my crossbow.  That was not fun.

I believe a wizard that can't cast spells is no longer a wizard, but a horrible fighter.  Throwing darts or using a crossbow may have been the thing to do in earlier editions, but I never found that at all fun.

That's why I like at-will spells and encounter spells.  I like the Wizard Traditions, but the preparation requirement seems strange.  I guess it all depends on how many spells get rituals added to their descriptions, but I think (just from my cursory glance right now) that maybe three spells per spell level would increase the utility of the wizard's spell selection without drastically bloating its combat ability.  That opinion may change with testing, though.

Still, I'd like to see a Pyromancer tradition or something.  The Battle agic tradition is cool, but making Thunderwave the signature spell makes me sad.  Buut, I guess the scalability of Thunderwave and being able to cast Burning Spray at-will might make up for it.
The problem with having more lower level spells is that the DCs are the same as 10th level spells when you gain them.

When some 1st level spells are able to cripple to cripple creatures from any level, it makes sense to stop adding options when the class already gains better options by gaining higher level spells.

It's a linear logical progression.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

I was once in a 3E game where my sorcerer had exhausted all her spells for the day, used up her wand of fireball, and had used up all the spells her mentor had placed in the Staff of Storing her gave to her.  Why?  The DM would not let us rest long enough to replenish spells.  I was reduced to plinking away with my crossbow.  That was not fun.

I believe a wizard that can't cast spells is no longer a wizard, but a horrible fighter.  Throwing darts or using a crossbow may have been the thing to do in earlier editions, but I never found that at all fun.

That's why I like at-will spells and encounter spells.  I like the Wizard Traditions, but the preparation requirement seems strange.  I guess it all depends on how many spells get rituals added to their descriptions, but I think (just from my cursory glance right now) that maybe three spells per spell level would increase the utility of the wizard's spell selection without drastically bloating its combat ability.  That opinion may change with testing, though.

Still, I'd like to see a Pyromancer tradition or something.  The Battle agic tradition is cool, but making Thunderwave the signature spell makes me sad.  Buut, I guess the scalability of Thunderwave and being able to cast Burning Spray at-will might make up for it.



When i am playing a wizard am I not looking for being able to cast spells every round in every encounter or in every encounter.
What gives me a mental kick, is to be seen as having been clever in the spell memorization choices i have made and to have been clever in having the right spells at the right moment in order to save the entire party from imminent danger.

Basically, when we enter a dungeon, it is about getting to the boss and on the way having spend as few spells at necessary to get past the obstacles. Why waste big damage spells in encounters were the fighters at will attacks can take down the evil guys. Spells are basically the party's strategic reserve and ought to be saved for the critical moments
(I am also fond of strategic board games, well, I have stopped buying Avalon hill games (from another hasbro daughter company)) and is instead buying strategic field based computer games from paradox entertainment, but the thought process is the same, to ensure the existence of the strategic reserve and decide when and where it is to be spend)
in 4th edition there where also some spells that alouwed you to make a certain maical atack each round untill the end of the encounter.
with the low number of spell slots having some spells like that could be benificial.
 
I am surprised that Invisibility doesn't seem the way that they described it would be. From what I remember, they said that Invisibility would be good, but not better than a Rogue that specialized in sneaking, but the spell lasts for an hour and seems to make the target completely invisible, so I'm not sure how that's not better than what a Rogue can do (at least for the sight part, obviously it doesn't do anything about moving quietly).
I am surprised that Invisibility doesn't seem the way that they described it would be. From what I remember, they said that Invisibility would be good, but not better than a Rogue that specialized in sneaking, but the spell lasts for an hour and seems to make the target completely invisible, so I'm not sure how that's not better than what a Rogue can do (at least for the sight part, obviously it doesn't do anything about moving quietly).



Invisibility is tricky because it is magic
What happens, if a player or npc use detect magic, do that mean, the person using detect magic can detect a magical aura from the illusion school due to the invisibility spell.
Invisibility also do not protect you against making tracks in the dust and so forth
@ Gustaveren: Detect Magic, a cantrip, should never trump a higher level spell. Detect Magic should reveal magical auras from items and effects in plain sight.
@ Gustaveren: Detect Magic, a cantrip, should never trump a higher level spell. Detect Magic should reveal magical auras from items and effects in plain sight.



well, in 3.5 did it do it according to the spelldescription if you spend the necessary amount of rounds to concentrate after having casted detect magic, but it was never a real problem
It opened up for lots of fun encounter options
1) You could use layers of spells (for instance illusionary walls) to hide the effect of other magical but weaker auras since only the strongest is revealed
2) Well, a clever wizard says, well, let me try to use detect magic to find out if there is illusionary walls in front of a secret door opening. well, fine enough, the entire dungeon have this aura, seems someone used that illusionary walls have permanent duration and low material cost.
3) you see there is the presence of a magical aura inside the room, but the effect suddenly moves out of your concentration cone.
there was also a spell there could be used to cancel magical auras
basically, it was not a problem but gave lots of plot hooks
@ Gustaveren: Detect Magic, a cantrip, should never trump a higher level spell. Detect Magic should reveal magical auras from items and effects in plain sight.



well, in 3.5 did it do it according to the spelldescription if you spend the necessary amount of rounds to concentrate after having casted detect magic, but it was never a real problem
It opened up for lots of fun encounter options
1) You could use layers of spells (for instance illusionary walls) to hide the effect of other magical but weaker auras since only the strongest is revealed
2) Well, a clever wizard says, well, let me try to use detect magic to find out if there is illusionary walls in front of a secret door opening. well, fine enough, the entire dungeon have this aura, seems someone used that illusionary walls have permanent duration and low material cost.
3) you see there is the presence of a magical aura inside the room, but the effect suddenly moves out of your concentration cone.
there was also a spell there could be used to cancel magical auras
basically, it was not a problem but gave lots of plot hooks




I don't think you could detect the invisibility spell with detect magic, at least not in 2e (If I recal correctly that was stated in the rules), but you could detect a magical item on the character.    TheOf course, the Locate Object spell worked too.


@ Gustaveren: Detect Magic, a cantrip, should never trump a higher level spell. Detect Magic should reveal magical auras from items and effects in plain sight.



well, in 3.5 did it do it according to the spelldescription if you spend the necessary amount of rounds to concentrate after having casted detect magic, but it was never a real problem
It opened up for lots of fun encounter options
1) You could use layers of spells (for instance illusionary walls) to hide the effect of other magical but weaker auras since only the strongest is revealed
2) Well, a clever wizard says, well, let me try to use detect magic to find out if there is illusionary walls in front of a secret door opening. well, fine enough, the entire dungeon have this aura, seems someone used that illusionary walls have permanent duration and low material cost.
3) you see there is the presence of a magical aura inside the room, but the effect suddenly moves out of your concentration cone.
there was also a spell there could be used to cancel magical auras
basically, it was not a problem but gave lots of plot hooks




I don't think you could detect the invisibility spell with detect magic, at least not in 2e (If I recal correctly that was stated in the rules), but you could detect a magical item on the character.    TheOf course, the Locate Object spell worked too.



yes, locate object, brilliant spell for detecting the location of the flying invisible wizard using Horrid wilting on the party by detecting the nearest location for the spell components used by that spell

Well, the detect magic description did say it could see spell auras and it did not exclude illusion spells, but, not a problem since it opened up more plot devices than it closed plot devices and it took time to concentrate to see it and so forth

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