Magic save DCs took a major hit

"The DC to resist a spell equals 10 + your relevant magic ability modifier, unless specified otherwise."

The bonuses start at +1 and go up to +2 at level 4 for Wizard.

So now 60% chance to fail a save on average...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Yeah, not nearly a big enough hit. Don't get me wrong the save or elses seem to have other limits in them so far like maintain concentration and additional saves but a 60% chance to auto shut someone down is way too high.  It isn't bad at low levels where a blow or 2 takes out virtually any enemy but when fighting supposedly tough enemies it short cuts the fight by too much. 

I don;t think a game can have save or dies/elses unless they are willing to make the save dc at least for them around 30% or less.  If all you are risking is a single action the reward should not be bypassing 5 unless you are about 5 times more likely to fail than succeed   
Yeah, not nearly a big enough hit. Don't get me wrong the save or elses seem to have other limits in them so far like maintain concentration and additional saves but a 60% chance to auto shut someone down is way too high.  It isn't bad at low levels where a blow or 2 takes out virtually any enemy but when fighting supposedly tough enemies it short cuts the fight by too much. 

I don;t think a game can have save or dies/elses unless they are willing to make the save dc at least for them around 30% or less.  If all you are risking is a single action the reward should not be bypassing 5 unless you are about 5 times more likely to fail than succeed   


What save/die spell in 5e are you referencing specifically? Because I don't recall there being one :P
My two copper.
The medusa's turn to stone ability can be considered save or die.

What save/die spell in 5e are you referencing specifically? Because I don't recall there being one :P



Domination is pretty much one, polymorph etc.  Yeah not technically dead, but it does not take much after those spells go off to correct that issue. And ther eis a reason I'm using die or else in my statements.  They might not ever put int he die, but a hold does far more than a single blow does to high hp monsters.