Sneak attack really took a hit.

I would even say it sucks now.

Cost 1 maneuver to get.

The expertise dice is horribad i.e. 1d4 at level 1

And you still need advantage to use which if I am not mistaken means you don't get it simply by flanking (since there are no flanking rules).
You're missing the part where you do get it if the target is within one of your ally's melee reach.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
You're missing the part where you do get it if the target is within one of your ally's melee reach.



You are correct, I just reread it.

Still not a great 1st pick, I don't know why they had to give the dice the same progression as the fighter. 
It still seems very underpowered to me, especially compared to the Fighter's Deadly Strike, which gets the same damage with no restriction.  I would have thought a rogue using sneak attack should be able to do more damage than a fighter, but have a lot tougher time hitting.

In my opinion (without having played the latest packet) I think the sneak attack should have a tougher restriction, maybe back to only with advantage, but deal a lot more damage, maybe rolling twice the expertise die spent for the extra damage.
I think there's been a clear desire to broaden the scope of the rogue so as not to pigeon-hole him as the 'high damage-dealing guy'. Putting heavier restrictions on his ability to get lethal makes sense, if the inferences I've understood from the designer's varied statements are reliable.

If the assassin is still on the table, it makes perfect sense.

Danny

So skills are now the rogues advantage over a fighter?Parry was better than deadly strike. IDK why they just ddint go back to 3.5 or 4th ed sneak attack adding a rogue gets advanatge when flanking if its 3.5's version. Either version worked well enough. 2d6 or 3d6 works well enough, 6d6 lvl 5 was insane with a 10% chance to crit which was more or less an instant kill.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

sneak attack needed a huge decrease.  I would change the rogue progression though.  Let them start at 1d6.  By level 10, I see no issue with the fighter and rogue evening out at 3d10 each.


1- 1d6; 2- 2d6; 3 - 2d6, 4 - 2d6; 5 - 3d6, 6 - 3d6, 7 - 3d6, 8 - 3d8, 9 - 3d8, 10 - 3d10

Not quite sure why rogue lost its knack.  


 
I actually like this. It says that a rogue can sneak attack and deal out damage like a fighter but in limited circumstances.  Instead of giving the rogue a super lethal attack that they can do most rounds, bring that back into balance.

I would suggest adding something extra to this though...

Sneak Attack:  If the attack is a critical, double the total additional damage from these dice.  That means that when a rogue does get a critical hit, which is less common, his attack does march up into the lethal range.  This way, a rogue does less damage than a fighter normally.  Within certain circumstances, the rogue can choose to do more damage and be equivalent to a fighter.  In the occasion of a critical, the rogue can effectively assassinate their target.

Meanwhile, the rogue can choose when to use these dice for damage, and when they can repurpose them for other tricks and effects.  I do like the change!  Rogue does not equal to abusive combat damage machine to me. 
Rogue is actually worse than the fighter at dealing damage and has smaller weapons to boot. Has no situation boost like backstab/sneak atack which all thieves/rogues have had in all editions. An elven fighter might be better at being a rogue than a rogue. Crunching it out now.

1d6/2 levels a'la 3.5 or pick 4th eds version. Give them a skill boost every few levels (+1 lvel 1, +2 lvl 4 IDK whatever).

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

Rogue is actually worse than the fighter at dealing damage and has smaller weapons to boot. Has no situation boost like backstab/sneak atack which all thieves/rogues have had in all editions. An elven fighter might be better at being a rogue than a rogue. Crunching it out now.

1d6/2 levels a'la 3.5 or pick 4th eds version. Give them a skill boost every few levels (+1 lvel 1, +2 lvl 4 IDK whatever).




I don't mind the reduction in damage.   Quite frankly, the "striker" idea from 4e was not my cup of tea.  The fighter should be the best at dealing damage.  The rogue can sneak, gain advantage on attacks, deal pretty good damage, tumble, roll, do thiefly things.   I like it.


 

A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

I'd say let the Rogue's sneak attack always be used, but double it if the rogue has advantage, but only works with light weapons. 
Yeah I'm not 100% sure but the Rogue seems to be the worst at combat now. Last packet they dealt to much damage with SA, now they seem to suck.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

Until 3rd ed and sneak attack, i don't recall rogue being the damage guy that the fighter was.  They get a lot more skills now (8), which is really nice, and more than enough reason to make me want to play a rogue. 

The Elven fighter might fight like a specific rogue, but he wont match the rogue in utility.  
Pre 3rd ed they still had backstab and skills were essentially exclusive to the thief and bard to a lesser extent. A high dex fighter can pick up a good chunk of the classic rogure skills and fight better than the rogue- and sneak attack better. The number of skills seem to be the rogues primary advanatage now. You can dump the rogue easily enough in a 5 man party. Rogue is suffering in Pathfinder as well and there were other strikers in 4th ed one could pick.

 Its like they see a problem and mash it with a sledgehammer when a scalpel was called for. If a rogue choses skill mastery they miss out on sneak attack altogather until level 3.

 Read it wrong. A Rogue doesn't get sneak attack at all until level 4.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

With the new critical rules, maybe Sneak attack should always deal critical hit damage.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Or grant advantage would be another option. Am I reading it wrong that the Rogue can't even take sneak attack until level 4?

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

You should be allowed to dump rogues.

And i always prefered assassin for damage. Thieves steal, not kill.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Or grant advantage would be another option. Am I reading it wrong that the Rogue can't even take sneak attack until level 4?



At level one the rogue gets his skills plus one maneuver. You can get sneak attack, but it is literally your only maneuver until level 4.
So skill master was only one example of a manuveur then in the packet?

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

Or grant advantage would be another option. Am I reading it wrong that the Rogue can't even take sneak attack until level 4?



At level one the rogue gets his skills plus one maneuver. You can get sneak attack, but it is literally your only maneuver until level 4.



You get two manuevers at 1st level, skill mastery and one other from your scheme.
Tim Eagon My DDI Articles Follow me on Twitter @Tim_Eagon
sneak attack needed a huge decrease.  I would change the rogue progression though.  Let them start at 1d6.  By level 10, I see no issue with the fighter and rogue evening out at 3d10 each.


1- 1d6; 2- 2d6; 3 - 2d6, 4 - 2d6; 5 - 3d6, 6 - 3d6, 7 - 3d6, 8 - 3d8, 9 - 3d8, 10 - 3d10

Not quite sure why rogue lost its knack.  


 



I'm betting because they realized "skill monkey" is not a class, but instead a specialty...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I actually like this. It says that a rogue can sneak attack and deal out damage like a fighter but in limited circumstances.  Instead of giving the rogue a super lethal attack that they can do most rounds, bring that back into balance.

I would suggest adding something extra to this though...

Sneak Attack:  If the attack is a critical, double the total additional damage from these dice.  That means that when a rogue does get a critical hit, which is less common, his attack does march up into the lethal range.  This way, a rogue does less damage than a fighter normally.  Within certain circumstances, the rogue can choose to do more damage and be equivalent to a fighter.  In the occasion of a critical, the rogue can effectively assassinate their target.

Meanwhile, the rogue can choose when to use these dice for damage, and when they can repurpose them for other tricks and effects.  I do like the change!  Rogue does not equal to abusive combat damage machine to me. 



Have you seen criticals yet? They are totally broken...Smile

"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Thanx so Rogues only real advantage over a fighter is ability to spend expertise dice on skills and 4 more skills?

 Page number for critical pls.

 nvrmind found it.

Critical hit damage.
Level
1. 2d6
3. 3d6
5. 4d6
7. 5d6

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

I think there's been a clear desire to broaden narrow the scope of the rogue so as not to pigeon-hole him as the 'high damage-dealing skills guy'. Putting heavier lighter restrictions on his ability to get lethal makes no sense, if the inferences I've understood from the designer's varied misguided statements are reliable.



There, I fixed it.  Allowing rogues to outdo the fighter for damage in certain circumstances does not pigeon hole them into being the "damage dealer," especially if those spikes average out against a typically lower DPR thanks to  smaller damage dice.  And even if they did get higher DPR when played smart enough to get SA often, the fighter is still king of combat for being substantially more durable.  And that's assuming fighters should be king of combat, a can of worms I don't feel like opening right now so I won't argue with it.  

The truth is, making rogues strictly worse in all ways to fighters within combat is actually pigeon-holing them far more than giving them one thing that they can do - at least if they want to - to shine.   That forces him to be the skills guy, who can be better at knowing things than the wizard for some inexplicable reason, and who gets twice as many skills chances to push somebody else out of the spotlight out of combat.  He literally has no other niche to exploit, and that is far, far more pigeon holing than being better at DPR (when everyone else has some other thing they're better at in combat, like durability, AoE/control, heal/buff).  At the moment, the only reason to play a rogue instead of a dex based fighter is to get more skills.  Or you just really love controlled fall and defensive roll, seeing as how the only other maneuvres you get that the fighter doesn't are iron will (not all that different from great fortitude) and sneak attack (strictly worse than deadly strike).  There is not one single thing that the rogue can do better in combat than the fighter, and that's plain wrong IMNSHO.  Worse, because rogues don't just get a +3 from training but a +3 + expertise dice, there's a temptation to focus even harder on skills because you get more benefit out of extra training than the next guy.  So you can't even hope that the fighter will take "skills specialist" while the rogue takes some kind of combat-improving specialty, evening things out.  

My preference?  As a quick fix, SA should be double the amount rolled, a bunch more in combat but not DPR maneuvres should be added to the list, and skill master should be replace with a mechanic not tied to expertise dice.  The current methodology makes rogues better at their trained skills than people with higher attributes and training, and progressively more better as they level (highest of 3d10 is about +8.5, enough to swamp even a 20 stat and a few extra points).  That both steps on everybody else's toes and encourages rogues to specialize even further into skills.  Take 10 had the right idea, cutting away the lower bound without adding to the upper bound, making rogues reliably good but not capable of greater heights of awesome than anybody else in a given trained skill.  It failed as a mechanic because it made failure impossible on all but the hardest checks, but it had the right idea.  I would replace it with the following mechanic: roll 2d6 in addition to the d20 and take the highest.  It doesn't add much to the average roll (11 and change), so it doesn't make trained rogues better at knowing stuff than wizards, and it's still quite possible to fail.  But you'll roll a lot less 1-4s and a lot more 5-12s, making a skilled character pretty reliable for moderate checks but not so reliable that you shouldn't bother rolling.  Sadly, this mechanic does not lend itself well to expertise dice, as it would be completely useless up to level 3, and 2d6 would be useless if you only use the highest roll but 2d8 and 3d10 are too awesome if you use the sum.

I still would rather see them get more dice but keep it low, like 2d4 at level 1. Then basically have one more die than the fighter in general but smaller dice so it evens out. That gives rogues more room to do things like sneak + backstab in the same round.

Maybe give them another maneuver too, but that might be for another thread. It looks like EVERYONE took a hit on the options front. Classes just have few options and are low powered in general, and the "skill + one other until you reach lvl 4" is a symptoms of that.

Perhaps you can roll expertise dice. Depending on the sum, different amount of damage is dealt.

3 or lower: Maximum weapon damage
4-6: Double maximum weapon damage
7+: Double Max + Critical damage.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

the rogue seems to folow a simular advancement to the fighter.
but the fighter get a axtra atack at level 6.

should the rogue also ger somthing more intresting at that level ?
maybe being able to score a critical on a 19 and 20 
I'm liking most the suggestions that have Sneak Attack tying in to Critical Hits (though the current critical hits are... weird).
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
How about rogues can only use sneak attack when they have advantage, but have to give-up advantage and only roll one di20, but double the expertise dice being used? 


I wish D&D had an easy description of a "step up" mechanic seen in other game systems. It would be so nice to just be able to "step up the rogue's expertise dice" moving it from a d4 to d6, d6 to d8, etc. And it's easy to apply on the fly making it comparable to advantage (just change the die) but overlaps. Things that increase damage (backstabbing, charging, etc) step up the damage die, while things that make you hit better (attacking from above, blinding your opponent) grant advantage.

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

I've always seen the Rogue as the guy who gets out of fights through wit and skill. Why not give him a more control oriented role? This may alienate the backstab DD crowd, but would open up the class. Imagine these maneuvers:

Chokehold: If you have advantage against an opponent, you may make a STR check against an opponent. If you succeed the target is dazed until the start of your next turn.

Redirected Strike: When a melee attack misses you, make a DEX check. If you succeed you may redirect the attack to another adjacent enemy.
Chokehold: If you have advantage against an opponent, you may make a STR check against an opponent. If you succeed the target is dazed until the start of your next turn.



I was kind of excited for some of the new "general" combat choices like disarm and whatnot...yet the above illustrates why yours and the ones in the book suck: rogue's don't rely on strength.

I'm OK with teh current Sneak attack rules.... IF rogues woud get advantage when flanking so can actually constantly use it if they desire to do so.
The Rogue really needs to get controller-y maneuvers that add slow/slide/stun/etc.
I'm OK with teh current Sneak attack rules.... IF rogues woud get advantage when flanking so can actually constantly use it if they desire to do so.



They can, anytime an ally is within reach of an enemy you can sneak attack. The question is: why is there a requirment for us to use a power that functions identically to a brand new fighter power? That means Sneak Attack is essentially removed from the game and the Rogue's deadly strike was renamed and make worse than the fighter's new power and the real Sneak Attack rogues have had for...how long now?
My current idea for sneak attack - the sneak attack manuver is renamed dirty fighting.  Rogues gain an additional ability usable once per combat.  If the rogue is hidden and has not attacked in the battle yet, the rogue can make an attack and on a hit the attack is a critical.

This gives the rogue a nice burst of damage at the start of a fight and then tones them down after.