Token-Doubling Replacements

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A while back, 2goth4U brought up an interesting consequence of a change that was made for Innistrad's release to support Essence of the Wild, forcing copy effects to apply before other replacement effects. (Basically so that things like Protean Hydra couldn't still get counters in addition to being an Essence of the Wild.) Currently, Doubling Season and Parallel Lives interact poorly with token versions of Clone-type cards--you're forced to get two copies of the same thing. I ran a Gathering Opinions thread about that interaction, and the response was massively lopsided in the other direction--most people did not believe you would be forced get two copies of the same thing.

Another scenario has been posted recently that raises a similar problem with token-doublers: devour. If you make a token that has devour while you control a Season or Lives, you can order the replacements such that you can effectively devour one creature to get counters on multiple tokens. And now that I'm thinking about it, the same underlying issue exists with basically any ETB-replacement effect that you can get on a token. While in many cases it may not matter (Graft would give both tokens counters anyway, the same cards could be revealed twice for Amplify, and so on), there's still a number of individual cards that care.

To solve this problem, I'd like to put forward the suggestion posted by 2goth4U in the original Season/Metamorph thread: force effects that modify the number of permanents entering the battlefield (like Season or Lives) to apply first, even before copy effects. This solves all of the issues mentioned in this post, allowing you to differentiate your Clone copies and ensuring that you can never get double bang for your buck out of ETB replacement effects.

Anyone have any questions/problems/alternative suggestions/arguments for why a fix isn't necessary?

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

The proposed change helps the clones and hurts the devourers. Personally I don't see the need for it. Devour is not that overpowerd, and I usually want 2 copies of the best thing on the field.

As the one who brought up both issues (my thread in Rules Q&A) I can see both sides of the argument.

I see it more as a quirk of the rules, like the o-ring trick, than a problem needing fixed. Sure you'll have to explain occasionally to someone who thinks it should be the other way, but is that really a problem?

Other card interactions get alot more tricky. Check my precursor golem math thread and look at the number of experience players getting it wrong, an the nuber of times it had to be explained.

The more I think about it, the more I like it the way it is. But that is just my opinion.

Level 1 Judge

You guys have fascinating timing. Already fixed in the next update, although perhaps not in the way you expect. #cryptic #waitandsee
Cool; thanks very much for the notice, Matt!

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

A while back, 2goth4U brought up an interesting consequence of a change that was made for Innistrad's release to support Essence of the Wild

As the one who brought up both issues (my thread in Rules Q&A) I can see both sides of the argument.

It was that thread that got me to thinking, so credit is also deserved for od256 and to Zammm for doing the Opinion Poll.

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I see it more as a quirk of the rules, like the o-ring trick, than a problem needing fixed. Sure you'll have to explain occasionally to someone who thinks it should be the other way, but is that really a problem?

Other card interactions get alot more tricky. Check my precursor golem math thread and look at the number of experience players getting it wrong, an the nuber of times it had to be explained.


But those all have a reasoning behind them. They work that way because of how the stack operates, and I'm pretty sure messing around with that is a bad idea (Seeing as every proposed fix has been terrible). Conversely, this senario seems to be entirely a matter of whim.
Basically
"Why does X?"
"Because of this big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff."
vs.
"Why does Y?"
"Because we said so." 
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River Guide
56756068 wrote:
58147568 wrote:
121816979 wrote:
56819178 wrote:
147112461 wrote:
Hi everyone,I have two questions. 1. If my opponent already controlled a planewalker , then he cast avacyn,angle of hope ,and resolved on battlefield.Now his planewalker in indestructible right?
[c]Avacyn, Angel of Hope[/c] -> Avacyn, Angel of Hope
No need to be so obtuse, maybe he's just trying to complement her. That's not too radical of a concept, I mean she is pretty acute, right?.
This right here should be a bannable offense :p
No, not an outright banning, that's too easy. He should be punished ... ... by degrees.