Deva Wizard/Avenger Hybrid (Level 6)

14 posts / 0 new
Last post

Hey,


I started working on a Wizard/Avenger build and I wanted to know if anybody had any input on the build I use and
the overall concept of the hybrid class. So far I built him as a primary avenger with wizard spells in order to:



  • Pop minions using area attacks

  • Combine area attacks with the effect from temple of light

  • Have (damaging) escape options in case the DM tries to swarm me to negate my oath


At the moment (I use him in a campaign) I am level 6 and have 3 magic items, while I appreciate suggested items
it's more the build itself I am interested in.
 


Build:

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Viaticum, level 6
Deva, Wizard/Avenger
Hybrid Avenger Option: Hybrid Avenger Fortitute
Hybrid Talent Option: Armor of Faith
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 11, DEX 10, INT 19, WIS 20, CHA 8

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 11, DEX 10, INT 15, WIS 17, CHA 8

AC: 22 Fort: 14 Ref: 17 Will: 19

HP: 57 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 14

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +9, Intimidate +8, Religion +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Arcana +7, Athletics +3, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +8, Heal +8, History +9, Insight +8, Nature +8, Perception +8, Stealth +3, Streetwise +2, Thievery +3

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Deva Racial Power: Memories of a Thousand Lifetimes
Wizard Utility: Disrupt Undead
Wizard Utility: Ghost Sound
Wizard Utility: Light
Wizard Utility: Spook
Wizard Attack 1: Winged Horde
Avenger Attack 1: Overwhelming Strike
Wizard Attack 1: Glorious Presence
Avenger Attack 1: Temple of Light
Avenger Utility 2: Distracting Flare
Avenger Attack 3: Fury's Advance
Wizard Attack 5: Grasp of the Grave
Wizard Utility 6: Fire Shield

FEATS
Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Execution Axe)
Level 4: Power of Skill
Level 6: Mighty Crusader Expertise

ITEMS
Vicious Execution axe +2 x1
Robe of Scintillation Cloth Armor +2 x1
Symbol of Perserverance +2 x1
====== End ======
You are gong to need a weapliment and the easiest way to get that is with mc swordmage or arcane implement proficiency and going fullblade instead of execution axe.  Gouge is better than executioner axe if you stick with an axe.

There are a lot better wizard dailies than grasp of the grave.

Why not thunderwave?  That is actually useful if you need to isolate an enemy next to you so you can use your oath.
@GelatinousOctahedron Thanks for the input already, I fulheartedly agree on the grasp of the grave bit. I haven't made up my mind which other daily to use. Any suggestions?

Apart from that I have some more questions, if you would take the time to answer them I would be most grateful.
You are gong to need a weapliment and the easiest way to get that is with mc swordmage or arcane implement proficiency. 


AFAIK (correct me if I am wrong) I can cast wizard spells through my holy symbol, which does not need to be in any of my hands at the time of the cast. Do I still need a weapliment then?
and going fullblade instead of execution axe


Apart from the +1 bonus to hit, is there another advantage  to off-set the 'loss' of brutal 2?
Gouge is better than executioner axe if you stick with an axe.


Apart from the 4-12 range instead of 3-12 is there another advantage to off-set the 'loss' of high-crit?
Why not thunderwave?  That is actually useful if you need to isolate an enemy next to you so you can use your oath.


I took winged horde over thunderwave because:


  • It is party friendly (melee heavy group)

  • Ranged (to fill up turns if I can't get to an enemy/am wounded)

  • I can cast it on my own square in case I am surrounded to move out of harm's way
    (I could use it to reposition for oath aswell)


Though I do miss the extra damage and movement of thunderwave. 
After what I said, do you still thing thunderwave is better? If so, any particular reasons?
So, from what I can tell, this is a combination of one of the worst avengers and one of the worst wizards?
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
If your DM gives you extra equipment you will be fine.  But if not you need to keep up both a weapon and a holy symbol using the standard treasure rules its expensive.

Fullblade is the easiest way to do it with a good weapon for avengers, but there is a weapliment guide in my signature that lists a lot of other options if you want to stick with axes.

The short answer to the Gouge questions is that it is better because mathmatically it will do about the same damage as a execution axe on its own but it also has access to spear feats which are very good.  Things like impaling spear, which will lets overwhelming strike target Reflex instead of AC.
You need to decide the following:
Are you a Wizard who happens to have Avenger tricks, the other way around, or are you a mix. The 1st two are by far the easiest.

If at all possible, I'd try to avoid spending feats or options on things that you'll only get to use half the time. Power of Skill is awesome for charging melee-damage focused Avengers. Are you one? It doesn't look like it because you only get a +1 to hit from charging and you don't have significant extra damage options. Ki Focus Expertise would allow you to power melee and implement from one item - obtainable easily through Elemental Initiate or perhaps Monk or Assassin. Executioner's Axe or Gouge is interesting, except it does nothing for your Wizard powers - those feats would be best spent on increasing damage overall rather than for specific sets of attacks.

Where I think Wizard|Avengers work best is by being a Wizard who happens to have really high AC, toughness and Bond of Censure or by being a typical Avenger build who uses Ki Focus Expertise instead of the regular option.
 I'm touched you consider me an expert
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
MWaO is not a noob by any stretch, nor are some of the others who have offered help.  Choosing to point out that whether a build itself is a Bad Idea, rather than helping to cobble something together is also important.  In this case, your answer is "You can have a character who is functional, though by no means exceptional", understanding of course that 4E rewards specialization.
In this case, your answer is "You can have a character who is functional, though by no means exceptional", understanding of course that 4E rewards specialization.



I think it is quite possible to have an exceptional Avenger|Wizard, just due to power selection options. You're basically an 18 Int/Wis Avenger who isn't quite as tough as they are normally, down a feat, and forced to take a theme such as Elemental Initiate(or Assassin or Monk feat) in exchange for:
Great Dailies and solid open the battle encounter powers
Shield Utility - that should usually resolve the problems with lack of toughness
Access to Quickened Spellcasting for minor action attack at the cost of a feat in Epic

So just pick out a top-tier Int/Wis Avenger build, take Elemental Initiate and Ki Focus Expertise instead of what it picked, hybrid talent for AC at 1st, choose Shield at 2nd, take Quickened Spellcasting in Epic at 21st, and pick a good burst Wizard at-will and encounter power. Then take Sky Blue Wizard Dailies and one Avenger Daily.

That should get you a build that almost any CharOp party is happy to have in it. I'd also point out that given that Falchion is +3 to hit/2-8 damage, Fullblade isn't that much of an upgrade over it with essentially a +1.5 damage boost per W at the cost of a feat if you primarily do 1w charges and Wizard powers. Gouge is usually better for all the obvious reasons, but Longspear or Pike isn't horrible in the same context.
Again, thanks for the help. I think I have a pretty good grasp of what I need to change this character into.
(ATM I had no theme selected so elemental initiate is very much an option)


  • Use a ki-focus and a gouge (impaling spear)

  • Better power selection

  • Change feats to allow the previous


Anything else I missed?


Edit: Could anybody give their opinion/alternatives forthe next powers in the context of an avenger/wizard hybrid in a melee heavy party:


  • Level 1: Wizard At-Will: Winged Horde

  • Level 1: Wizard Encounter:  Glorious Presence

  • Level 5: Wizard Daily: Grasp of the Grave 


Also: I had Shield up until level 6, where I retrained level 2 to be an avenger utility so I could pick up Fire shield at level 6, what do you think of this? Is this a good idea or should I have picked up an avenger utility at level 6? 
I don't feel Ki focuses are as mandatory as MwaO does - holy symbol and Mighty Crusader Expertise can suffice, but ki focuses are substantially less expensive, since you're not maintaining two attack items.

And elemental initiate is a pretty decent theme anyway.
I don't feel Ki focuses are as mandatory as MwaO does - holy symbol and Mighty Crusader Expertise can suffice, but ki focuses are substantially less expensive, since you're not maintaining two attack items. And elemental initiate is a pretty decent theme anyway.



There are a number of hidden advantages to ki focus which makes it a lot better than Mighty Crusader:
Get a damage bonus against bloodied targets
Don't need to keep both an implement and weapon upgraded
Leaves the holy slot open for a +2 Symbol of Victory which then never gets used for anything else
There are a number of focuses that can turn melee attacks into elemental damage and therefore use the +3/4 damage feats from Heroes of Elemental Chaos.
Because you're wielding a ki focus, you don't actually care about what the property of your weapon is. This means you can wield a Shielding Blade +1 as an example, which is a really cheap common item for a +1 bonus to AC.

Yes, you don't provoke with Mighty Crusader, but at the same time, you can arrange it so you don't actually care. 
MwaO is spot on.  If I were making this character, I'd focus heavily on round 1 disabling/disruption along with (hopefully) a full-fledged controller to completely neutralize the field.  Rounds 2-4 will be spent mopping up with your more devout face-smashing side.

So focus on initiative and round-1 lockdown, then probably the few multi-attacking Avenger powers.

Don't sweat the more snippy Char-Op members.  They're some pretty smart people and are usually correct a staggering amount of the time.  They aren't perfect though, so you have to accept the good with the bad to find out whats rattling around in their heads.

As far as powers go, Grasp of the Grave into Visions of Avarice or Phantom Chasm if you like doing more damage, using forced movement into the Chasm also helps any prone tactics your party might employ.  But really Grasp isn't horrible, it's just a commonly resisted damage type.  What can really pour on the control is if you and your full-time controller coordinate powers to be more effective.  Grasp can be pretty decent paired with a prone + slide power to basically deny the majority of your enemies their first turn. 

So my suggestion is basically to see what your party is playing and capitalize on/synergize with their choices to make your first turn as brutal as possible for the enemy.
MwaO is spot on.  If I were making this character, I'd focus heavily on round 1 disabling/disruption along with (hopefully) a full-fledged controller to completely neutralize the field.  Rounds 2-4 will be spent mopping up with your more devout face-smashing side.

So focus on initiative and round-1 lockdown, then probably the few multi-attacking Avenger powers.

Don't sweat the more snippy Char-Op members.  They're some pretty smart people and are usually correct a staggering amount of the time.  They aren't perfect though, so you have to accept the good with the bad to find out whats rattling around in their heads.

As far as powers go, Grasp of the Grave into Visions of Avarice or Phantom Chasm if you like doing more damage, using forced movement into the Chasm also helps any prone tactics your party might employ.  But really Grasp isn't horrible, it's just a commonly resisted damage type.  What can really pour on the control is if you and your full-time controller coordinate powers to be more effective.  Grasp can be pretty decent paired with a prone + slide power to basically deny the majority of your enemies their first turn. 

So my suggestion is basically to see what your party is playing and capitalize on/synergize with their choices to make your first turn as brutal as possible for the enemy.

Okay, thank you