No "core" races, classes, monsters, specialties, ect...

A thought i've been kicking around in an effort to have all races, classes, and settings treated as equals.

You have no "core" races/classes/monsters/dieties/settings/ect.  The only thing that is "core" is the 1 rule book that only has rules.  You then pick any setting PHB and DMG that suits your group.  Each setting can be run independantly of other books.

Since the books are independant, there's going to be a bit of repeat in each one .  But each should have a new take on things (i.e. new sub-races, or new sub-classes).

So instead being forced to get PHB1, you have a choice of...



  • PHB Forgotten Realms:  Neverwinter Humans, Wood Elves, Hill Dwarfs, ect..  Vacient Wizards, Guardian Fighters, Sun Clerics ect..

  • PHB Underdark:  Hill Dwarves, Drow Elves, Deep Gnomes, ect.. Necromancer Wizards, Acrobatic Fighters, Assassins, ect..

  • PHB Dark Sun:  Raam Humans, Enslaved Dwarves, Wild Elves, Thri-kreen, Muls, ect..  Forceful Psions,  Wild Battleminds, Arena Fighters, ect..

  • PHB (another setting): Setting specific race, setting variant of race, ect..  setting version of a fighter, setting version of a wizard, setting class.



No book requires any other, and each are expansions of eachother, irrelevent of the order of release.  And yes, that mean we end up with 20 different types of elves, and have exessive fighters support but is traditional ;)

We also have stronger world tie-ins.  Strengthening the immersion for everyone.  Though care needs to be taken to keep things compatable with other settings.  It's not "Cleric of Pelor", it's "sun cleric, who worships pelor".

Thoughts? 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

While I don't disagree with the idea if everyone was running a published campaign setting. I think many many DM's run their own settings though and a set up like this makes it impossible to build and exotic and unique world because you'd have to buy 3 mm right out of the box to have full access. 

I think these items make wonderful supplements, but I really do think that the PHB, DMG and MM with a format similar to 4th or 3rd (If I am remembering 3rd correctly) is the best way to appeal to new players and satisfy us older folks.  
I dunno, it's still 3 books.

Plus if they started with a fairly generic game world like nentir vale or the realms it'd cover most things in the phb 1 anyway.

THe problem I see is having to re-write all the base classes and such every time.

 
Its a good idea but the problem is with DMs that run their own settings (and theres quite a few out there).

I DON'T like the idea of a PBH2 adding more 'core' classes. Keep all the 'core' classes in the PHB and reserve Prestige Classes for the Campaign Settings. Only make sure the prestige classes have more attainable pre-requisites, in 3E, you couldn't be anything cool until 7th level, which doesn't make sense.


It makes perfect sense a prestige class has requirements and you spend levels fillign them. 

If you mean to say that all the cool PrCs were the ones that had more requirements and required higher levels then that's kind of the point. 3e worked on the suck now be awesome later philosophy. Now that said 5e should avoid this philosophy and strive to make the options balanced, so maybe instead of variable level reqs each PrC has preqs that can be attained by level x and they try to be roughly balanced power wise. That would be a good idea. 
No thanks.
I don't want to have to buy four or five different rulebooks just so I have access to what are supposed to be the "core" races and classes for my homebrew world. I don't want to have to buy the Greyhawk player's book just so I can give my players access to the ranger class. Specialty races and classes? Sure. Thri-Kreen, Warforged, and so on belong in setting-specific books...not dwarves and elves. Same for classes. Artificers and so on belong in setting-specific books...not clerics and fighters. 
Can't remember old account log-in. Using this one instead. Getting old sucks.
THe problem I see is having to re-write all the base classes and such every time.

You simply don't.  If you want the fighter class, or the kobolds, you buy the forgotten realms book.

Or do you mean if you add a necrotic cleric in ravenloft you have to rewrite the base cleric.  I'd rather have a little bit repeated then be forced to buy 2 books to play a necrotic cleric.


You simply don't.  If you want the fighter class, or the kobolds, you buy the forgotten realms book.

Or do you mean if you add a necrotic cleric in ravenloft you have to rewrite the base cleric.  I'd rather have a little bit repeated then be forced to buy 2 books to play a necrotic cleric.

While I don't disagree with the idea if everyone was running a published campaign setting. I think many many DM's run their own settings though and a set up like this makes it impossible to build and exotic and unique world because you'd have to buy 3 mm right out of the box to have full access./quote]I don't see how it's that different.

Though i could see a "Custum Setting PHB" and "Custom Setting DMG".  Which contains a wide splattering of things as well as rules on how to build your own stuff.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

No thanks.
I don't want to have to buy four or five different rulebooks just so I have access to what are supposed to be the "core" races and classes for my homebrew world. I don't want to have to buy the Greyhawk player's book just so I can give my players access to the ranger class. Specialty races and classes? Sure. Thri-Kreen, Warforged, and so on belong in setting-specific books...not dwarves and elves. Same for classes. Artificers and so on belong in setting-specific books...not clerics and fighters. 

Dwarves and rangers belong in a setting just as much as warforged and artificers do.

I mean, if i had a homebrew world in space, with everyone living on ships, and no forest or mountains, where would dwarves and elves come from?  Where did the ranger get his beast compainion?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

No thanks.
I don't want to have to buy four or five different rulebooks just so I have access to what are supposed to be the "core" races and classes for my homebrew world. I don't want to have to buy the Greyhawk player's book just so I can give my players access to the ranger class. Specialty races and classes? Sure. Thri-Kreen, Warforged, and so on belong in setting-specific books...not dwarves and elves. Same for classes. Artificers and so on belong in setting-specific books...not clerics and fighters. 



I feel ya, I don't want to have to by the Nentire Vale book for Teiflings. I think we can all agree that inclusion of a little bit of everything gives everyone the tools they need until the supplements can come out.

This model would leave way too many people hanging for way to long as they scramble to write all those books.  
I feel ya, I don't want to have to by the Nentire Vale book for Teiflings.

And i don't want to buy elves and rangers to get access to warforged and artificers.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I feel ya, I don't want to have to by the Nentire Vale book for Teiflings.

And i don't want to buy elves and rangers to get access to warforged and artificers.



It's much easier for you to say "no elves or rangers guys, that's not the type of campaign we're running" Than for me to buy 4 $60 books before I can build my world. One way takes a sentence, the other requires $240. I'm not trying to shoot down your idea, I'm just stating my opinion, and I hope all of those supplements get printed. It just seems like a super expensive solution to a small problem. 

The other huge issue is that printing 3 books at launch is do-able. Having to launch 8 or 12 is not. The 3 books they would release would satisfy only a very small chunk of the populace and leave the other portion waiting for months or maybe years for their books to get released. Which in my eyes is the opposite of pulling us all the editions together and would probably spell doom for 5th edition.
Very simple solution: Monster Manual as a book of races.
Very simple solution: Monster Manual as a book of races.



I would support this, remove all races from the phb and place them in the MM, but that means every player is going to buy one and have all the access to monster stats. Not a real issue, but it would be kind of disappointing to describe a monster and have the players go "oh yea, I remember reading that one." And then flip to the page in the book. I probably wouldn't allow it regardless but it becomes likely with every player having a MM. 
It's much easier for you to say "no elves or rangers guys, that's not the type of campaign we're running" Than for me to buy 4 $60 books before I can build my world. One way takes a sentence, the other requires $240. I'm not trying to shoot down your idea, I'm just stating my opinion, and I hope all of those supplements get printed. It just seems like a super expensive solution to a small problem. 

I don't see why you would spend more then you would normally.

Basicly, i'm simply renaming PBH1, to PBH: Forgotten Realms.  The content would be 90% the same.  The only difference is that things have more of a world tie in (elves come from here, dwarves live here), and you don't need to buy it if you don't want elves or fighters.

Perhaps calling it PHB1: Forgotten Realms would provoke less of a reaction.

The other huge issue is that printing 3 books at launch is do-able. Having to launch 8 or 12 is not. The 3 books they would release would satisfy only a very small chunk of the populace and leave the other portion waiting for months or maybe years for their books to get released. Which in my eyes is the opposite of pulling us all the editions together and would probably spell doom for 5th edition.

I don't think they would all come out at once.

You'd just start with forgotten realms.  Then probably a second LOTR type setting a few months later.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

It's much easier for you to say "no elves or rangers guys, that's not the type of campaign we're running" Than for me to buy 4 $60 books before I can build my world. One way takes a sentence, the other requires $240. I'm not trying to shoot down your idea, I'm just stating my opinion, and I hope all of those supplements get printed. It just seems like a super expensive solution to a small problem. 

I don't see why you would spend more then you would normally.

Basicly, i'm simply renaming PBH1, to PBH: Forgotten Realms.  The content would be 90% the same.  The only difference is that things have more of a world tie in (elves come from here, dwarves live here), and you don't need to buy it if you don't want elves or fighters.

Perhaps calling it PHB1: Forgotten Realms would provoke less of a reaction.

The other huge issue is that printing 3 books at launch is do-able. Having to launch 8 or 12 is not. The 3 books they would release would satisfy only a very small chunk of the populace and leave the other portion waiting for months or maybe years for their books to get released. Which in my eyes is the opposite of pulling us all the editions together and would probably spell doom for 5th edition.

I don't think they would all come out at once.

You'd just start with forgotten realms.  Then probably a second LOTR type setting a few months later.



What I want is the PHB to not be tied to a campaign setting I don't (and I thank many people don't) use. I don't want the PHB telling my players that Dwarves come from deep mountain holds of Moria and things like that if my Dwarves are actually native to the plains. Make the starting books a set of tools to put together your own masterpeice. There are tons of setting novels out there if you just want the lore of the setting. 

This is why I would spend more than I did when I bought the 4th edition core set. My world uses Elves, Dwarves, Humans, Dragonborn, Minotuars and a Kenku PC at this moment. If I wish to switch my world over to 5e, I don't expect to get all those options, but I want many of them. Not just the stuff from someone elses world. So I would have to buy at least 2 DMG and 2 PHB and 2 MM to get that effect. It would double my cost. 

I think a far better way of doing it is keeping the setting fluff as ideas in sidebars and then releasing setting supplements. 

By your own admission they wouldn't be released at the same time, so tons of people would wait to purchase any books until their setting is released. Which means the books that are released first would have much smaller sales numbers than is desired and the edition would likely get sacked before it ever had a chance. So everyone looses. 

 
I see one huge problem. For this to work they have to produce a lot of books right off the start. In the configuration you suggest they need Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk at the very mininum and probably Dark Sun and Ebberon also. Otherwise people are not going to have access to what they want from the start. That would be very difficult for WotC to execute decently and a burden on people forced to buy multiple books just to create a character.

I like the idea of having custom campaign player's handbook and DMG though. The first one could have guidelines for creating races, classes, powers and other PC material and the second could have the world building and background material guides. This is something that D&D has never covered well, and usually the material has been scattered across books and articles in small chunks.
I would support this, remove all races from the phb and place them in the MM, but that means every player is going to buy one and have all the access to monster stats.

No D&D book can ever be forbidden lore, when Amazon sells them to anyone with a credit card.
Any DM who goes ballistic when someone else has perused a MM or DMG is a DM who should be avoided.

I would support this, remove all races from the phb and place them in the MM, but that means every player is going to buy one and have all the access to monster stats.

No D&D book can ever be forbidden lore, when Amazon sells them to anyone with a credit card.
Any DM who goes ballistic when someone else has perused a MM or DMG is a DM who should be avoided.



Yeah, but there's a big difference from some players (maybe the ones who also DM) owning the MM and all players owning it. I don't have any problem with some players having read it, but I don't want to design things knowing that all my players own a monster manual and have spent time looking through it.
What I want is the PHB to not be tied to a campaign setting I don't (and I thank many people don't) use. I don't want the PHB telling my players that Dwarves come from deep mountain holds of Moria and things like that if my Dwarves are actually native to the plains. Make the starting books a set of tools to put together your own masterpeice. There are tons of setting novels out there if you just want the lore of the setting.

Then instead of saying "dwarves are from the planes" you have to say "dwarfs are from the planes".  But for DM's who don't want to make stuff up, the have dwarves from Moria.  It helps them, but doesn't hurt you.

Though I agree mechanics should be easily seperated from from fluff, and putting a warforged in the mount holds of Moria shouldn't be an issue.

This is why I would spend more than I did when I bought the 4th edition core set. My world uses Elves, Dwarves, Humans, Dragonborn, Minotuars and a Kenku PC at this moment. If I wish to switch my world over to 5e, I don't expect to get all those options, but I want many of them. Not just the stuff from someone elses world. So I would have to buy at least 2 DMG and 2 PHB and 2 MM to get that effect. It would double my cost.

First, my suggestion has the monsters in the DMG.  Don't make things up i didn't say.

Second, if you want to add minotaurs as a PC race, then just buy the PHB: setting with minotaurs in it.  It's the exact same thing you did in 4e.  You had to buy PHB1 for humans, dwarves, and elves, and PHB2 for minotaurs.

Again, i'm not seeing a difference.

By your own admission they wouldn't be released at the same time, so tons of people would wait to purchase any books until their setting is released. Which means the books that are released first would have much smaller sales numbers than is desired and the edition would likely get sacked before it ever had a chance. So everyone looses. 

No more then people waiting for warforged to thri kreen to come out.

Again, what's the difference?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

This seems like a terrible idea, and particularly alienating for potential new players. It also treats the setting as if that were what d&d is, which has never been the case. You going to print an entirely new PHB or MM for every single homebrew campaign?

Nope.
I see one huge problem. For this to work they have to produce a lot of books right off the start. In the configuration you suggest they need Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk at the very mininum and probably Dark Sun and Ebberon also. Otherwise people are not going to have access to what they want from the start. That would be very difficult for WotC to execute decently and a burden on people forced to buy multiple books just to create a character.

It doesn't matter how you configure it.  Someone will have to wait.

Weather it's the PHB3 that contains githyanki or Spell Jammer Players Guide, they won't be out till they are out.

And yes, i expect Forgottem realms, neter vale, or greyhawk to be the first ones.  Perhaps 2 of them at release.



Actually, in a setup like this, books can be smaller and cheaper.  Rather then buying a $40 book of 8 races and classes, you could by a $20 book of and classes, which let's you cherry pick what you want better.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

This seems like a terrible idea, and particularly alienating for potential new players. It also treats the setting as if that were what d&d is, which has never been the case. You going to print an entirely new PHB or MM for every single homebrew campaign? Nope.


Clearly i've failed to explain myself.

No, you don't need a new PHB or MM.  Everything is compatible.  You can take monsters and classes from any book, and use them in any book.  Same as you always could. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I don't have any problem with some players having read it, but I don't want to design things knowing that all my players own a monster manual and have spent time looking through it.

But, how often does a player need to look up what his race does?
The situation can be easily handled by "write this down" or "read page 37" or "go look it up on the internet, unless Hasbro DDI-locked it."
What I want is the PHB to not be tied to a campaign setting I don't (and I thank many people don't) use. I don't want the PHB telling my players that Dwarves come from deep mountain holds of Moria and things like that if my Dwarves are actually native to the plains. Make the starting books a set of tools to put together your own masterpeice. There are tons of setting novels out there if you just want the lore of the setting.

Then instead of saying "dwarves are from the planes" you have to say "dwarfs are from the planes".  But for DM's who don't want to make stuff up, the have dwarves from Moria.  It helps them, but doesn't hurt you.

Though I agree mechanics should be easily seperated from from fluff, and putting a warforged in the mount holds of Moria shouldn't be an issue.

This is why I would spend more than I did when I bought the 4th edition core set. My world uses Elves, Dwarves, Humans, Dragonborn, Minotuars and a Kenku PC at this moment. If I wish to switch my world over to 5e, I don't expect to get all those options, but I want many of them. Not just the stuff from someone elses world. So I would have to buy at least 2 DMG and 2 PHB and 2 MM to get that effect. It would double my cost.

First, my suggestion has the monsters in the DMG.  Don't make things up i didn't say.

Second, if you want to add minotaurs as a PC race, then just buy the PHB: setting with minotaurs in it.  It's the exact same thing you did in 4e.  You had to buy PHB1 for humans, dwarves, and elves, and PHB2 for minotaurs.

Again, i'm not seeing a difference.

By your own admission they wouldn't be released at the same time, so tons of people would wait to purchase any books until their setting is released. Which means the books that are released first would have much smaller sales numbers than is desired and the edition would likely get sacked before it ever had a chance. So everyone looses. 

No more then people waiting for warforged to thri kreen to come out.

Again, what's the difference?



Every PHB ever has a little bit of generic lore, and that is good for DM's who don't want to make their own stuff up but making every single book ONLY about a setting is extremely restrictive. DnD is fantasy, the core books should allow you to do all types of fantasy, not just the DnD only settings. 

In 4th I was able to start out with all the generic races, and some exotic ones. Perfect. No need for my players to buy multipule books to have many options. Admittedly it would have been nice to have a single psionic class in the PHB 1 in 4th, but that is why we try and change. Hopefully 5th will give us a fuller sampling of class concepts. 
Moving monsters to the DMG is odd though, having a core book that gives monster making rules, traps, diseases and explains how to DM is just a better use of the book than trying to cram all of a settings fluff and all the monster stats you need into a single book. Which will end up leaving monsters out so I have to buy more and more books. Agian the issue is raised. 

The difference is that we can do better this time and that you way of doing it leaves people wanting for the feel of a game than ever before, not just a race here or there. Normally the PHB and DMG allow people to take in many different ideas and put out a unique campaign. Now all you get is a setting and advice on how to play that setting. 
Not to mention you tell a new to DnD friend to go buy the PHB and he comes back with the wrong setting and has to go spend more cash to make up for it. It will end up being confusing to new players as well. 

I'm not saying each of these settings aren't useful, but I think the main 3 should be a set of tools to get all of that DnD feel and then setting books can give us town names and lore later on. (with bits of course in the main books as examples, like the sidebars that have always existed.) 
How about No DMG and PHB.
Do it like the playtest.


A Core Rule Book
A Race and Deit Book
A Class and Equipment Book
A Monsters and Traps book
A Spells and Magic Items book

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I find this confusing.  If I see a book called Rules COmpendium, I assume it has all the rules I need to play.  But it won't have classes or races.  And there's no obvious product for me to choose to get those things.  Why do I have to buy Forgotten Realms to learn how to play a human or a fighter?

If I want to play an elven ranger in an Eberron campaign, do I have to buy the PHB for Forgotten Realms (elves), Greyhawk (ranger), and Eberron (campaign guide)?!

Campaign settings should contain campaign-specific mechanics.  Warforged and artificers (eberron),  Thri-kreen and Defilers (Dark Sun), etc.  Don't make me buy every campaign setting just so I can play a dwarven barbarian in a Dark Sun campaign.
In 4th I was able to start out with all the generic races, and some exotic ones. Perfect. No need for my players to buy multipule books to have many options. Admittedly it would have been nice to have a single psionic class in the PHB 1 in 4th, but that is why we try and change.

That's a fair point.  It would be nice to have a smattering of things availible to start with.

Moving monsters to the DMG is odd though, having a core book that gives monster making rules, traps, diseases and explains how to DM is just a better use of the book than trying to cram all of a settings fluff and all the monster stats you need into a single book. Which will end up leaving monsters out so I have to buy more and more books. Agian the issue is raised.

Rules for making monsters, traps, and diseases would be in the rules compendium.

The DM guide could possibly be renamed "monsters and setting guide".  But i feel there should be a divide between DM and Player stuff.

The difference is that we can do better this time

I agree.  And we should explore new ways of organizing.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

How about No DMG and PHB. Do it like the playtest.

A Core Rule Book
A Race and Deit Book
A Class and Equipment Book
A Monsters and Traps book
A Spells and Magic Items book

That's an interesting idea.

Though i'm not sure Dieties should be in a book.  They should be setting specific.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I find this confusing.  If I see a book called Rules COmpendium, I assume it has all the rules I need to play.  But it won't have classes or races.  And there's no obvious product for me to choose to get those things.  Why do I have to buy Forgotten Realms to learn how to play a human or a fighter?

I'm open to suggestions for better names.

If I want to play an elven ranger in an Eberron campaign, do I have to buy the PHB for Forgotten Realms (elves), Greyhawk (ranger), and Eberron (campaign guide)?!

It's the same as if i wanted to play a goliath (PHB2),  fighter (PHB1), in dark sun (campaign guide).

Campaign settings should contain campaign-specific mechanics.  Warforged and artificers (eberron),  Thri-kreen and Defilers (Dark Sun), etc.  Don't make me buy every campaign setting just so I can play a dwarven barbarian in a Dark Sun campaign.

Don't make me buy 4 books to play a thir-kreen artificer in spell jammer.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I find this confusing.  If I see a book called Rules COmpendium, I assume it has all the rules I need to play.  But it won't have classes or races.  And there's no obvious product for me to choose to get those things.  Why do I have to buy Forgotten Realms to learn how to play a human or a fighter?

If I want to play an elven ranger in an Eberron campaign, do I have to buy the PHB for Forgotten Realms (elves), Greyhawk (ranger), and Eberron (campaign guide)?!

Campaign settings should contain campaign-specific mechanics.  Warforged and artificers (eberron),  Thri-kreen and Defilers (Dark Sun), etc.  Don't make me buy every campaign setting just so I can play a dwarven barbarian in a Dark Sun campaign.



Pretty much what I was getting at way down the thread. If I'm new to the game, then I'll grab the Rules Compendium and some dice, then head to the checkout thinking I'm good to go. Alas, when I get home, I discover that I also needed to buy two or three campaign-specific books (that I likely have never heard of, being new) just to play. I probably won't know what a Greyhawk is, so I naturally won't think to pick up the Greyhawk Player's Guide.

I think the format they've been using is just fine. Base, core, "traditional" races and classes in the PHB, and campaign-specific races and classes in campaign books. I don't see this format as being broken, and if it's not broke, don't try to fix it.
Can't remember old account log-in. Using this one instead. Getting old sucks.
I find this confusing.  If I see a book called Rules COmpendium, I assume it has all the rules I need to play.  But it won't have classes or races.  And there's no obvious product for me to choose to get those things.  Why do I have to buy Forgotten Realms to learn how to play a human or a fighter?

If I want to play an elven ranger in an Eberron campaign, do I have to buy the PHB for Forgotten Realms (elves), Greyhawk (ranger), and Eberron (campaign guide)?!

Campaign settings should contain campaign-specific mechanics.  Warforged and artificers (eberron),  Thri-kreen and Defilers (Dark Sun), etc.  Don't make me buy every campaign setting just so I can play a dwarven barbarian in a Dark Sun campaign.



Pretty much what I was getting at way down the thread. If I'm new to the game, then I'll grab the Rules Compendium and some dice, then head to the checkout thinking I'm good to go. Alas, when I get home, I discover that I also needed to buy two or three campaign-specific books (that I likely have never heard of, being new) just to play. I probably won't know what a Greyhawk is, so I naturally won't think to pick up the Greyhawk Player's Guide.

I think the format they've been using is just fine. Base, core, "traditional" races and classes in the PHB, and campaign-specific races and classes in campaign books. I don't see this format as being broken, and if it's not broke, don't try to fix it.

Does the 4e rules compendium have races and classes in it?

No, you need to buy "PHB hero's of forgoten realms kingdoms", and DM kit (which has a setting specific adventure) along with it.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Does the 4e rules compendium have races and classes in it?

No, you need to buy "PHB hero's of forgoten realms kingdoms", and DM kit (which has a setting specific adventure) along with it.



No, it didn't have races and classes in it. It was a bad idea as well. 
Can't remember old account log-in. Using this one instead. Getting old sucks.
A Core Rules Book (no classes or races or whatever. Contains the basic equipment, backgrounds, and specialties)
A Class book (Contains 10+ classes, variants, and spells)
A Race book (Has 20 races/sub races, racial classes, backgrounds, etc, rules for making races from monsters)
A Monster Book (the new MM)
A Trap and Magic book (traps, spells reprints, magic items)
A DM book (DMing advice, and campaign variants)
A X setting guide (fluff, setting variants, Deities, maps)

$20 each.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

In 4th I was able to start out with all the generic races, and some exotic ones. Perfect. No need for my players to buy multipule books to have many options. Admittedly it would have been nice to have a single psionic class in the PHB 1 in 4th, but that is why we try and change.

That's a fair point.  It would be nice to have a smattering of things availible to start with.

Moving monsters to the DMG is odd though, having a core book that gives monster making rules, traps, diseases and explains how to DM is just a better use of the book than trying to cram all of a settings fluff and all the monster stats you need into a single book. Which will end up leaving monsters out so I have to buy more and more books. Agian the issue is raised.

Rules for making monsters, traps, and diseases would be in the rules compendium.

The DM guide could possibly be renamed "monsters and setting guide".  But i feel there should be a divide between DM and Player stuff.

The difference is that we can do better this time

I agree.  And we should explore new ways of organizing.



That is my truest point. A smattering of things to start us off so everyone can get their games going and then put out settings books. 

I agree we should explore different ways, and I agree DM and player stuff should be seperate (to an extent) Shouldn't the DMG be the book that has all the trap and disease and hazard other kind of rules instead of the compendium then cause every player will have the trap rules. (not saying anything is "forbidden for players" I just like a semiclear distinction so players can focus on characters and not get distracted by all the stuff only the DM really needs to think about.) 

My only true issue gaming issue is my preference for a smattering of stuff to help us all get our games going in 5E without tons of houserules and homebrew.
Though I do feel that it could be a negative buisness idea. I am considering it as a way to go, but perhaps my responses are too negative. For that I apologize. It is a very intriguing idea and every single book you suggest, I want to see made. I think people would be estatic to see their favored setting on the list of books to be published soon if WoTC did use this idea though, and in the very long run it could draw in many old players. I just don't think 5E would stay solvent that long. 
A Core Rules Book (no classes or races or whatever. Contains the basic equipment, backgrounds, and specialties) A Class book (Contains 10+ classes, variants, and spells) A Race book (Has 20 races/sub races, racial classes, backgrounds, etc, rules for making races from monsters) A Monster Book (the new MM) A Trap and Magic book (traps, spells reprints, magic items) A DM book (DMing advice, and campaign variants) A X setting guide (fluff, setting variants, Deities, maps) $20 each.



It might be hard to pull off unless we did a boxed set (which would cost like $160.) By this I mean most stores probably wouldn't dedicate that much shelf space to the product line. It could be a great way to include lots and lots of stuff though. To get the info we all want though, they would probably have to cost at least $30. 
I'm open to suggestions for better names.


I think the Rules Compendium is fine alone, and it should be really cheap, possibly even pocket sized, or downloadable.

The PHB should have the "traditional" human-like races and classes.  I would suggest...
Races: Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Goliath, Halfling, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, and Human
Classes: Assassin, Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlord, Wizard
And appropriate numbers of Backgrounds and Specialties, plus basic equipment.
And, of course, lots of advice on roleplaying.

The DMG would have traps, magic items, and lots of advice on DMing and house-ruling

And a MM would have the basic generic monsters for the game.

Anything else is conidered nonstandard and will appear in supplements.  Frankly, I wouldn't even make them setting supplements.

You could have a Big Book of Goblinoids, so you can play goblins, bugbears, hobgoblins, orcs, etc.
A Big Book of Reptilians, for Dragonborn, Lizardfolk, Kobolds, Yuan-ti, etc.
A Big Book of Fey for Eladrin, Drow, Dryads, Satyrs, Svirfneblin, etc.
A Big Book of Planar Races for Aasimar, Deva, Gith, Tieflings, etc.
A Big Book of Dead Races for Revenants, Shadar-Kai, Shades, Vryloka, etc.

do I have to buy the PHB for Forgotten Realms (elves), Greyhawk (ranger), and Eberron (campaign guide)?!

It's the same as if i wanted to play a goliath (PHB2),  fighter (PHB1), in dark sun (campaign guide).
yes, and it's awful.

Don't make me buy 4 books to play a thir-kreen artificer in spell jammer.


Are you really arguing that an elven ranger is as exotic a race-class combo as a thri-kreen artificer?!
Even OD&D had three initial rulebooks. 2e began with a hardcover PHB and DMG and a monster book which consisted of two spiral bound books (MC1 and MC2). This certainly does not mean that 5e must have 3 initial rulebooks, but I think it strengthens the argument for it. I also don't conflate such races as elves and dwarves with the Forgotten Realms, or even Greyhawk. They are much more iconic and widespread than that. I've never used the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk in a tabletop setting, but I have always had dwarves and elves. 

I agree with wrecan about making settings books limited. They should cover the geography (both physical and cultural) of the setting and any equipment, monsters, races...etc. that have historically (in DnD terms) been specific to that setting. If you object to the term "default" or "core", just think of it as "initial" instead.
I'm open to suggestions for better names.


I think the Rules Compendium is fine alone, and it should be really cheap, possibly even pocket sized, or downloadable.

The PHB should have the "traditional" human-like races and classes.  I would suggest...
Races: Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Goliath, Halfling, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, and Human
Classes: Assassin, Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlord, Wizard
And appropriate numbers of Backgrounds and Specialties, plus basic equipment.
And, of course, lots of advice on roleplaying.

The DMG would have traps, magic items, and lots of advice on DMing and house-ruling

And a MM would have the basic generic monsters for the game.

Anything else is conidered nonstandard and will appear in supplements.  Frankly, I wouldn't even make them setting supplements.

You could have a Big Book of Goblinoids, so you can play goblins, bugbears, hobgoblins, etc.
A Big Book of Reptilians, for Dragonborn, Lizardfolk, Kobolds, Yuan-ti, etc.
A Big Book of Fey for Eladrin, Drow, Svirfneblin

do I have to buy the PHB for Forgotten Realms (elves), Greyhawk (ranger), and Eberron (campaign guide)?!

It's the same as if i wanted to play a goliath (PHB2),  fighter (PHB1), in dark sun (campaign guide).
yes, and it's awful.

Don't make me buy 4 books to play a thir-kreen artificer in spell jammer.


Are you really arguing that an elven ranger is as exotic a race-class combo as a thri-kreen artificer?!



Can't we just have Orc and have Half-Orc as a subrace and replace Half-Elf as a class all it's own with something that isn't already covered by two other races? (Human and Elf) 

I would like to do the same with Assasin and Rogue and add the Psion or another psionic class. A little bit of something for everyone that way. 

Other than that, the suggestion is pretty good. I feel we have room to add a race or two to include more playstyles, but it does cover a lot of ground. 

How about No DMG and PHB. Do it like the playtest. A Core Rule Book A Race and Deit Book A Class and Equipment Book A Monsters and Traps book A Spells and Magic Items book



Actually i like your idea,if, BIG IF, they were very cheap ,small paperback books ought to be replaced  1 year or so later by a comphrensive ,errata-free,definitive edition.
I have been.. "pissed off",from the incredible amount of errata for the 4ed. Twenty-seven pages for just the phb1 atm,if i recall correctly..
Also,paperbacks of little cost could be a good move for the young players who dont have a lot of disposable income, imo.
DM: Products of MY Imagination ©. Since 1986.
Can't we just have Orc and have Half-Orc as a subrace and replace Half-Elf as a class all it's own with something that isn't already covered by two other races? (Human and Elf) 


Hey, if I had my way, we'd just have rules for hybridizing races and call it a day.  But I think half-elf and half-orc are too traditional to be relegated to that sort of ruleset.

That said, I'm actually thinking we shoudl merge the DMG and MM....

The first book is ...
"Dungeons & Dragons" and it contains the rules

Then you release a pair of books:
"Players Handbook", which contains the "initial" races, classes, backgrounds, specialties, equipment, and, possibly, and lots of roleplayind advice
"DM Handbook", which contains, the initial monsters, traps, and treasure (including magic items), as well as lots of DMing advice.

The you have expansions.  Personally, I foresee an Unearthed Arcana with lots of optional rulesets,  as wells books for exotic races, books for exotic settings (high seas, planar travel, urban adventure, steampunk, Oriental Adventures), etc.

And setting books. 
Can't we just have Orc and have Half-Orc as a subrace and replace Half-Elf as a class all it's own with something that isn't already covered by two other races? (Human and Elf) 


Hey, if I had my way, we'd just have rules for hybridizing races and call it a day.  But I think half-elf and half-orc are too traditional to be relegated to that sort of ruleset.

That said, I'm actually thinking we shoudl merge the DMG and MM....

The first book is ...
"Dungeons & Dragons" and it contains the rules

Then you release a pair of books:
"Players Handbook", which contains the "initial" races, classes, backgrounds, specialties, equipment, and, possibly, and lots of roleplayind advice
"DM Handbook", which contains, the initial monsters, traps, and treasure (including magic items), as well as lots of DMing advice.

The you have expansions.  Personally, I foresee an Unearthed Arcana with lots of optional rulesets,  as wells books for exotic races, books for exotic settings (high seas, planar travel, urban adventure, steampunk, Oriental Adventures), etc.

And setting books. 



I can see your point but if we do the player book and then combind the DMG and MM. I think the PHB can add a few more race and class choices cause you aren't worried about making sure combat rules and everything is in there. Then have all those big expansions. I think that would work and for a very comparable cost. 

Sign In to post comments