Fantastic Races Discussion

By these I refer to some of the more "out there" ones such as Tieflings, Dragonborn, Shardminds, etc.

I've seen a number of complaints recently about them. I'm honestly curious and hoping to find out why people have an issue with them.

Mostly I want to know, why do you like/not like them?

No edition warring or insults. Attempts to use or instigate these and I will not respond to you at all until you clean your post up and repost it.
Just to start things off.

I personally love some of the stranger races. Having a bigger variety of races(so long as they aren't giving too big an advantage over another race) makes it easier for me to work out interesting character concepts.

Plus if for any reason I'm making a game and having a few of these races wouldn't make sense, I'll simply talk to the group before hand or at session 0 and explain "Ok, these races are currently not allowed for x, y, and z reasons." Though depending on the campaign, if they gave a REAALLY good explanation, then I would consider it.
I'm not a big fan of some of the REALLY "out there" stuff...

Shardminds come to mind here.

But Tieflings, Aasimars and Dragonborn all seem pretty natural expressions of the core D&D cosmos to me.

I didn't like that the 4th Edition "Everything is Core" concept pushed them into places they should never have been (Forgotten Realms... eugh!  What a MESS!) but once they ditched that (YAY! for 4th Darksun not compromising on what makes the setting work!) they became just fine to me.

In other words... fine as part of the core races because they are cool within the core cosmology.

But please don't try to force them into settings that weren't written to take them into account.         
Short answer:  Look at The Lord of the Rings.

Long answer:  People who object to the inclusion of more fantastic races in their settings generally feel that these races make mundane and everyday concepts that should be exotic and strange.  They feel, for example, that uncovering a diabolical plot to open a portal to Hell loses some of its dramatic impact when they can go down to the corner and chat with a tiefling innkeeper.  They want the "default" state of their fantasy world to generally resemble our world (at a different time and place, but still) and thus feel familiar, so that when they do see supernatural people, places, and events, the direct contrast between the familiar and fantastic produces wonder, awe, and/or dread.  Not to repeat myself, but really do look at The Lord of the Rings.  The Shire is a very familiar place, especially to Tolkien but even to those of us who haven't hung around the English Midlands.  So the hobbits' sensibilities and outlook are similar to ours.  Thus, as we follow the hobbits through the fantastic events of the story, we and they can both see the events as fantastic.  A Ringwraith soaring through the blackened sky on a hideous winged hellbeast is not normal to us, and it's not normal to the hobbits either.  And if it were normal to the hobbits, that would diminish its effect on us.
It doesn't really matter; WotC should definitely print them.  The individual tables can decide whether or not to allow them, regardless of whether or not they are published in the initial book outlay (what most people call 'core') or not.

I didn't mind 'Everything is core' at all, myself; even if WotC had said 'no (X) in Eberron', I would likely have put all the races in there anyway.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Short answer:  Look at The Lord of the Rings.



Why?  D&D has only been tangentially connected to that incredibly boring pile of hobbit-snot for the last, what fifteen years?  It's grown beyond that limited scope, thank goodness.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
It doesn't really matter; WotC should definitely print them.  The individual tables can decide whether or not to allow them, regardless of whether or not they are published in the initial book outlay (what most people call 'core') or not.



Pretty much THIS.

Like classes, every Race is a nice little Module package that any table can reject for any reason.

More of them is good, not bad, because it brings more people into the game as a whole.

Only the "you have to have all of them always otherwise you are doing it WRONG and having badwrongfun" attitude needed to go.

Thanfully it did, even before Next.         
Like classes, every Race is a nice little Module package that any table can reject for any reason.


I mentioned that before, but I just got yelled at :\
I loved a lot of the races from 4E; favorite being the tiefling.  Some of them, I'd have to admit, were a bit too odd.  The wilden, for example.  I'm a player who likes his PCs to look cool.  Wildens looked downright bizarre and the first time I saw them in the books, I wondered to myself, "If I kill one, could I use it as tinder for a campfire?"

The gnome, while not really a race I would ever play, I'd have to admit that they are a classic D&D race and belong here.  I'm hoping that they bring back tieflings.

I like tieflings because you can roleplay them in several ways: devlish tricksters or redemption seekers.  You can fall in between the extremes of good and evil or the gray area.

I avoid playing humans, if I can.  It's a fantasy game.  I want to play something interesting, unique, and has some kind of style.
Like so many other things, too many races can make a world seem cluttered and messy. Actually, I tend to prefer my fantasy "humans only," at least as far as playable races go, but as a DM I let people play from the "classic D&D" races of elf, half-elf, halfling, and dwarf. Maybe gnome or half-orc if they beg.

I never played/ran 4e, but tieflings, aasimar, and dragonborn (and warforged!) would have been non-starters.
Like classes, every Race is a nice little Module package that any table can reject for any reason.


I mentioned that before, but I just got yelled at :\



That's what the Block User function is for.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Like so many other things, too many races can make a world seem cluttered and messy. Actually, I tend to prefer my fantasy "humans only," at least as far as playable races go, but as a DM I let people play from the "classic D&D" races of elf, half-elf, halfling, and dwarf. Maybe gnome or half-orc if they beg.

I never played/ran 4e, but tieflings, aasimar, and dragonborn (and warforged!) would have been non-starters.



And if you want to do that at your table, that's cool.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
It's funny, because in alot of settings, the less human like races are the most interesting characters, while humans are the boring characters...like in Mass Effect

Also, let's take a look at World of Warcraft...what faction is more popular, the faction of tolkien races (Alliance, thought dranei are extremly popular race added on an expansion), or the faction of more...fantastic races (Horde, who are composed of Jamaican Mesoamerican inspired Trolls, Native American inspired Minotaurs called Taurens, the noble but brutal Orcs, who are not like orcs are protrayed on most fantasy settings and Forsaken...who are zombies, and New York accent and love of fire and explosion and steel Goblins)

What would attract more players...the races that every other fantasy games have...or more unique races?  And let me tell you, Tiefling and Dragonborn are very popular for new D&D players during the 4th edition era...wish was a stupid decision of wotc not to include them on their essentials line until the 2nd book... 
Well part of it really is just edition warring, and the core 4 only types. People who for some reason think that having other options supported will ruin 'their' game.

Another aspect I've run into is the 'rabid anti-munchkin', who assumes that every race that isn't just a quick photoshop of a human has to be some sort of powergrab on the player's part. Considering how poorly balanced many of the races/playable monsters were in 3e, I don't completely blame them.

Another thing is replacement anxiety. The concern that some new wierdo is replacing your classic favorite. For example there was some concern at my table that the dragon born was supposed to be the 4e half-orc. Personally I'm still miffed that 4e never offered a true half-dragon option as a theme or paragon path to turn a member of any race or class into a dragon-blooded terror, and somewhat resent the d-born for snagging most of the cool dragon-ish PC options for themselves.

Fans of an established race that doesn't get released or gets delayed will sometimes seek to lay blame, and any new or exotic races that get released before their pet race is an easy target. 

Another thing I've noticed is that sometimes a race like the mul or the warforged will be called "campaign specific" or "setting specific" and many people will dismiss them because they have limited or no official presence outside of a given world. Elves and such are cited as being 'core' or 'generic' races due to being present in hundreds if not thousands of fictional realms. This has more to do with modern copyright law then the intrinsic value of the race, but people still treat it like an indicator of the race's overall worthiness of being included outside their 'official' placement.
 
Like so many other things, too many races can make a world seem cluttered and messy. Actually, I tend to prefer my fantasy "humans only," at least as far as playable races go, but as a DM I let people play from the "classic D&D" races of elf, half-elf, halfling, and dwarf. Maybe gnome or half-orc if they beg.

I never played/ran 4e, but tieflings, aasimar, and dragonborn (and warforged!) would have been non-starters.



And if you want to do that at your table, that's cool.



Pretty much this.  In an addition that is supposed to be modular, things to modulate IN and OUT need to exist.  Just having four races and four classes doesn't really allow for much modularity.  I would be cool if they had every PHB1 race and every PHB1 class, kind of like they have talked about.  For setting specific races or classes, I would be perfectly okay with those appearing in their respective books.

How is this for a new slogan.  Rather than "Everything is Core" how about "Everything is an Option".

I run Dragonlance, so races like the Drow and Orc/Half-orc are typically out.  But that doesn't mean that someone that is running Eberron or Forgotten Realms should not have the option to run those races, especially given that those races have been a part of the game before.  I think if WotC wants to capture their target audience (Read: EVERYONE), they need to have as many options as possible.
CORE MORE, NOT CORE BORE!
Like classes, every Race is a nice little Module package that any table can reject for any reason.

More of them is good, not bad, because it brings more people into the game as a whole.

Only the "you have to have all of them always otherwise you are doing it WRONG and having badwrongfun" attitude needed to go.

Thanfully it did, even before Next.         


Yes, races are modules.  You can allow or disallow any you like.  But that's not the end of the story.  Even if they are all explicitly described as optional modules, the choice of races presented in the basic Player's Handbook can have a huge effect on the expectations of players and DMs.  To take a silly but illustrative example:  imagine that the races presented in the PHB were:  human, elf, dwarf, halfling, Wookiee, droid, Bothan, Rodian, and Hutt.  Viewed narrowly, the inclusion of the Star Wars races might be better, because it would provide options for DMs and players who want to run fantasy/space-opera crossover campaigns.  But when you step back and look at the big picture, it dramatically changes the tone being set by the product.  If you've just picked up the game and are reading through it for the first time, you get a very different idea about what this game is and how you play it.  If you're looking for a product in the classic heroic fantasy genre, you may well put it down and look for something else, even though strictly speaking you can ignore the alien races and just play with the fantasy ones.  Don't get me wrong, I am all for supplemental materials that let you do whatever crazy thing you want with your campaign.  But those first impressions are very important too.  The PHB needs to set the right tone for D&D as well as just provide players with options.

The big question, then, is this:  do tieflings and dragonborn set the wrong tone for D&D, or not?
Well that depends, are the dragon born gonna keep boggarting all the good stuff?

The big question, then, is this:  do tieflings and dragonborn set the wrong tone for D&D, or not?



Given that they fit clearly into the core cosmology, fit the fantasy setting and appeal to large numbers of players there's only one possible answer to this question.

Protip: It's not "no".

And if you don't want them at your table, you can choose not to have them in your setting.

...


Given that they fit clearly into the core cosmology, fit the fantasy setting and appeal to large numbers of players there's only one possible answer to this question.


You're begging the question.  Whether they "fit the fantasy setting" is precisely what I am asking.  And I really am asking because I don't have an answer.  I can see arguments both ways.


C'mon guys, can't we all just be friends and roll some dice?  Maybe even share a soda?

D&D is a game about fantasy and exciting adventure.  Some people want to venture as far into that as they can, taking on roles they could never do in the real world such as playing a half-orc warrior or a gnome wizard or an elven rogue.  Some even want the ever-stranger/unique races like the tieflings and dragonborn (who hasn't wanted to play as a dragon man?!)

What's core or not shouldn't be an issue.  As long as everyone is having fun and enjoying themselves (and are following the rules/limitations), who's playing what race should not be the subject of argument.  We might as well argue why baked potatoes are better than peas and carrots. 
Salla has it right. The more options the better, let us sort it out.

3e is my favorite edition for almost purely nostalgic reasons and when I DM for new players I restrict the classes to basic handbook (with limited exceptions) but I also allow exotic races. In face I encourage it. It's half the fun of fantasy. Every "Races Of" book is allowed and while I never got into Ebberon I LOVE the races. Shapeshifters, Lycankin and Magical Robots?! How cool are they!?!

4e kept that right introducing Teiflings, Eladrin and Dragonborns. It allowed you to start out more expressive. Now, I'm more of a fan of Humanoid Dragons (My defauly race in 3e tended to be a Draconic Human). I've always loved the idea that dragons can mate with pretty much every race so they tend to get around. They like to spread the draconic blood. I always pictured the Humanoid Dragon Race as less Bipedal Dragons and more as Humanoid creatures with decades of cross-breeding, but that's just me.

Point is, we like to play extrodinary characters and exotic races can help that. I'm glad 5e is planning on so many classes but I hope they keep the races plentiful as well. I never play Shardminds. But someone does!

Human
Elf
Dwarf
Halfling
Gnome
Orc(ish)
Half-Elf
Shifters
Changlings
Warforged
Aasimar
Teiflings
and Dragonkin (of some kind)
These are the races I'd love to have as CORE in 5e.

I'd also like Eladrin (or some other Fey Class besides Gnomes and Elves), Half-Dwarves and Dwelves but besides the Eladrin I'm not expecting them. 
To me, a "far out" race is one that doesn't even have biology as we understand it.
Shard-minds and Warforged fall into this.
As do many Undead as PCs concepts.

As DM I often have trouble running for such entities. I know it's weak, but they break the verisimilitude border for me.
Bleeding damage? Um... I'm a pile of crystal with no vital fuilds. Works extra well against Vamps, tho.
Hamstrung? My apendages aren't even attached to my body physically.

However, these are personal problems, and I'm more than willing to work with my players with these. In many of my games, I sentitent, anthropomorphic Golem built for combat would be fairly common as a bodyguard for the wealthy or elite. Or as Animated statuary from a temple to protect the faithful, ect...

The other side is if the race's fluff offends me with internal inconsitency, ect... Like the Deva re-spawning incarnating as a Rakshasa if they are wicked... How do I deal with that for PCs who play jerk @$$ Deva just to be reincarnated as furry-devils? However, fluff is easy to fix.

Now, I've mentioned my grumbles about some races.
Much like raw tomatoes, I'm not a fan, not going to eat them often, but do not doubt their validity as a food stuff.
The local farmers market not only should not ban them, but it should carry them. Heck, I love salsa and tomato soups. Tomato products are yummy, so I may buy them, just to process them into something I like.

So for races, let there be diversity.
Especially with the Sub-race system in use, it will keep bloat down.
Race(sub-race)
Plane-touched ( Aasimar, Deva, Pre-4E Tielfing, Genasi of the different elements)
Near-Human or possibly just sub-races of Human ( Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Mul, the various Gith-races, Turathi-tieflings, Possibly Shifters)
Something non-offensive for Furries/Scalies (Shifters, Dragonborn, Lizardfolk, Catfolk ect)
Living Constructs (Warforged, Shardminds, Frankensteinian style animates, ect) 
Goblinoids (Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears)
Y'all get the idea. 
If they give solid rules for build your own races/sub-races, they can give a race and a sample sub race or two, and then turn us loose.
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.

Human
Elf
Dwarf
Halfling
Gnome
Orc
Half-Elf
Shifters
Changelings
Warforged
Aasimar
Teiflings
Dragonkin
Eladrin



I agree, these are the ones I would love to see. (Not so concerned about shifters)

As for the discussion as to whether Tieflings and Dragonborn set the right tone? I think we set the tone that we want to set.

If the Dragonborn are uncommon and far between, with no empire of their own - it can be used to show of the days past, and what the world has done.
If they have a gleaming empire, are one of the strongest millitary powers in the world - it can be used as the conquerors - or maybe shown as the protectors.
If they are shunned by society, and feared by humans, then that also sets the mood for your world.

Same with Tieflings, maybe they are shown to be evil, a great empire that worships the devils. Maybe they are outcast due to their fearsome appearence. Maybe their empire was corrupt, shattered, and the only Tieflings left are either working to redemption or fanatics, who like reminding people of what their race used to be.

I'd say that no races really set the wrong tone - and if there are some that don't fit in your world, just don't allow them.
I love "Fantastic Races." In 4E I have played multiple Warforged, Shifters, and Wilden. They allow for the expression of many character concepts-- an awakened guardian statue (Warforged), a tribal werewolf(Shifter), a young treant(Wilden). These are the kind of fantasy concepts I prefer, rather than straight Tolkein stuff.

As for the "devil on every streetcorner" argument, I have always though that player characters are somewhat exceptional, meaning just as not many villagers will have class levels, the fantastic races are not common-- in fact, I would think there is no such thing as adult level-0/minion/mook Tiefling, Deva, Dragonborn, or Warforged townsfolk.
I like fantastic races. My own setting has not one but 2 Goblin nations so players would has goblin characters as an action.  Also my cousin joined in 4th and always plays dragonborn.

To me, for any race to feel not like a version of human they need a few freaky feature. Eentually you'll run out of subtle ones and the freak will pile up.

You start with "short", "stout", "skinny", "good hearing and sight", "lucky" and eventually to get to "green skin", "firebreathing", "shapeshifting", "horned", "clawed"....

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I prefer to have "fantastic races" as exceptions unless the specific game has good reason to have many uncommon races, and then several of the same uncommon race would make most sense to me. A group of 2 humans and 3 catfolk makes more sense to me than a group of 1 shardmind, 1 wilden, 1 tiefling, 1 dragonborn and 1 mul. I would have a hard time taking this kind of mess very serious. At any rate, I would expect this game to be high level from the start, because that leaves me room to explain the strangeness to myself.

My preferred group would be 4 common race PCs and maybe 1 uncommon race, and this one character should face the consequences/stigma/prejudice/awe that fit the world.

So while I don't dislike the "fantasic races" (good term, btw) I think they should stay fantastic rare.
I love the flavor and RP potential of Tieflings, and at least in the FR after 4e they wouldn't be terribly rare. Dragonborn stuck out terribly to me as a way to attract younger players, though.

Also a race's inclusion in the core books doesn't mean one is on every street corner. That's still a matter of setting. It just means it's possible to encounter such a race.
I like having the more "out there" races, though I don't usually like using them.  I have no compunctions about restricting races if I'm DM(or about joining games where races are restricted, as a player) but I'd just rather have the write-ups available for me should I wish to use them.

And there's always that one person who wants to play a shardmind or whatever, and hey, more power to them. 
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
Another thing, the compositions of races in a location or group should not be too "defaulted" in the books. The core books should describe multiple worlds where the lasso of "fantastic" races changes. The traditional city or party filled with a humans, elves, dwarves, halflings and a "we don't serve your kind" race should be downplayed slightly to encompass worlds where different racial alliances, populations, and rarities occur.

This goes back to the setting's tone and makeup. A world with the core four fighting the forces of evil might not be big on neutral fantastic races or johnny-come-latelies. Same with mostly peaceful settings where only 4 or 5 nations really live in the area in numbers. But when you start increasing the number or total sides, there becomes a drive to make each nation unique. At some point some creators have trouble making 5 human nations feel different and other racial nations may aside and give validity for there inclusion as player characters.

And with D&D already having so many intelligent races in their bestiary, it becomes hard to find good excuses why an X won't help a Y.

Its so dang easy to fill up a map space or national trope with more races available.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

PC races is one of my favorite parts of D&D. Only a race I don´t like, the wildren from "Planar Handbook"..(and the slaad-like neraph).

About shardminds....they were too exotic..and I liked it but that background about the cosmic gate.


About the wilden (PH 3)...I imagined them like feral creatures, with link with beasts (yes, like cousins of sifthers), nor plant humanoids.

I would like the fay shadar-kain had got link with elves and drows, like far cousins, and a dark background, but without obligatory link with plane of shadow.

I imagine the oriental shens like cousins of elves, something like korobokuru are linked to dwarfs.

Fraal (classic alien gray-skin men) are perfect to be in a new psionic handbook.

* About little races like haflings or gnomes... please, being only rogues or spellcasters are too boring. They need warrior classes with light armor (swashbuckler, duskblade, hexblade, monk, warsage, factotum..).

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

I love "Fantastic Races." In 4E I have played multiple Warforged, Shifters, and Wilden. They allow for the expression of many character concepts-- an awakened guardian statue (Warforged), a tribal werewolf(Shifter), a young treant(Wilden). These are the kind of fantasy concepts I prefer, rather than straight Tolkein stuff.

This.

Having all the races nearly the same limits the characters you can build.

I never played/ran 4e, but tieflings, aasimar, and dragonborn (and warforged!) would have been non-starters.

Why?  You fight against demons, angles, dragons, and golums, but you can't play as one?  Do they have to only be enemies?  Drow used to be enemies only, but Drizzt is now a major character of D&D.



Idealy each monster would have a PC equivelent.  I want PC oozes, catastrophy dragons, trents (wilden), mindflayers, insects (thri-kreen), ghosts and whatever else they can balance (some will obviously be harder then others.  I've got no idea how to have a gelatinous cube expertly wield a sword and shield, but i would absolutly play one if it exsisted).

I guess you could always balance them by breading them with humans (dragon + human, demon + human, ooze + human) but half the point of playing a fantasy game is to play something non-human.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

As somebody who the OP I think is calling out, I'll just re-print what I have on another thread...


hi raging Gygaxian traditionalist here, I think everybody has their own soundtrack.

When I'm going on a long road trip I wanna hear ACDC, or the old 96rs. When I get on a sailboat I wanna hear enya oranoko flow and come sail away, if I'm depressed its NIN, if I want to psych myself up its dead kennedys, sex pistols, megadeth, Slayer, etc. That music makes the expirence feel more comfortable, nostalgic, and correct. 

D&D is the same way... I have a super hero game I prefer, and a secrete agent/modern game, but when I play fantasy, I only wanna play D&D, and the D&D I play must feel that D&D way to me or else it just dosent seem right, it completely throws me off, throws off my DMing style, or my ability to get into character as a player.

Some things really just kill that for me, like monster races as player races, mages with the HP of rogues and the AC of fighters, clerics casting or using magic user spells, magic items that are bought and sold like cheap trinkets, magic items that lack the fluff and ability of their origional DMG versions, fighters using daily and encounter powers, warlords and bards buffing better than clerics, druids turning into anything under the sun any time they want, mages who can cast in the middle of combat... the list goes on and on but basically... 

I want 2e updated, and I dont want any of the things I mentioned above creeping its way into what I believe is core for D&D. If other people want to play in a high magic setting where every pesant has a magic item or two, want players playing flying fire breathing dragon men, want to play vampires as PCs, want first level classes that can use 4th level spells as daily abilities etc. Thats totally fine with me and I think WotC should be like Apple "we got an app for that" and have tons of setting and optional rules to allow them....

but IMHO those things absolutely do not need to be in a core book of D&D, and will make me much less likely to buy and even less likely to support/street team that product line. 

Its like I'm going on the road trip and the hitchhiker just pulled out a gun and slammed a Teen Disney/Justin Beeber compilation into the audio jack saying "your listening to this and by god you better say you like it!".  

maybe I'm totally wrong, maybe fighters should be throwing around abilities every bit as effective as an equal level mage's fireball, maybe every class should have options that let them do everything another class can but when things like that are proposed, I'll never just bite my tongue and say "well if its what the kids want I should just shut up about it..."

no... some things should be sacred... and that shouldent need to get explained or opposed.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
Shardmind as a warforged sub-race?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

hi raging Gygaxian traditionalist here, I think everybody has their own soundtrack.

When I'm going on a long road trip I wanna hear ACDC, or the old 96rs. When I get on a sailboat I wanna hear enya oranoko flow and come sail away, if I'm depressed its NIN, if I want to psych myself up its dead kennedys, sex pistols, megadeth, Slayer, etc. That music makes the expirence feel more comfortable, nostalgic, and correct it's what i'm used to.
 

It's only "correct" for you, because that's what you go used to.  If you grew up in a different country, or differnt time, around different people, or started playing with 4e, you would have a compleatly different idea of what "correct" was.

Don't mix up "what i'm used to" with "correct".

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

@Baalbamoth
From the look of things at the moment, I think the best you can hope for is that you get an "app". I don't mean to belittle your preferences, but they are no longer core - they are old school. Vere very old school.
WotC would be foolish not to cater to you and the player type you represent, so while I am rather certain that you will hate the core of 5E, I hope you will like the old school module.
I object more to the sentiment that some things are sacred and shouldn't need explaining. The more important something is, the more it has to be explained and understood. Otherwise it's not reverence, it's mindlessness.
fine, lets explain...

metallica, awesome band, just about all major fans of metallica will still tell you they might like a song or two off the newer albums, maybe it was even revolutionary for the music industry at the time, but almost all of them will agree the best stuff metallica ever did was on their first few albums.

likewise.... pepsi came out with pepsi clear a long time ago, looks like 7up, tastes like pepsi, has double the sugar, double the caffine. yep a lot of people liked it but not most pepsi fans. now pepsi clear is gone and pepsi is doin just fine without it.

perhaps this is the old farts arguement, but I find more often than not trying to greatly change or improve uphon something thats already been a large success just to make a few more duckets is not a wonderful idea or much of an improvement. Its generally better to stick with that which works well, and make minor improvements over time. 

3e did ok with this but went too far, 4e was such a huge rapid departure... its pretty much pepsi clear, now the devs want to go back to the origional formula with "some" modifications.  

and Loki I think your right, I think I'm getting Beiber and being told "its sorta like ACDC in that their both music with singing and gutiars" seriously... if thats what happens, well... I dont think I'm buying books and I'll stick to the videogames. BTW I Just got to rank 11 on the planetside 2 beta, words cannot describe how cool it is to watch and participate in two entire armys of thousands of players battle over a gigantic futuristic base... Halo 4 looks awesome and is coming out on the 6th of next month... I've got plenty of entertainment options, so as much as I might like the idea of getting back into a nostalgic familar game I grew up loving, if they dont offer me something along those lines, I wont be playing or paying... that 60 bucks can instead buy me "Dishonored"...
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
I like Load and Reload. Bieber is not as terrible as he's made out to be. I don't like the genre, but within that genre, it's not the worst.
Someone asked the question "Does this set the right tone?"  That's interesting.  I never thought about it that way.   I would hate for something to be included that would drive someone away from the game.  But I have trouble with understanding why people would refuse to buy 5e stuff just because there are some bits they don't like. 

I understand that if the core mechanics bug you, you don't want the game.  I bought a board game based on one of my favorite webcomics.  I still love the comic, but the rule system for that board game reek.  I have played it exactly three times, and I may throw it away. 

But, if you like the core mechanics, and they include all the stuff you do like (the classes you want, the races you want), why birth a bovine over the inclusion of some races or classes you don't like?  So it's in the core book.  No one is forcing you to use it, or even to read the offending pages. 

I dislike the shardmind.  It is probably the only race I have never even considered using as a PC (I love freaky races).  But It's inclusion won't make me shun the entire system.  I'll just skip that page (or more likely peruse it and smirk) and enjoy all the stuff I find useful.

So, I think they should make sure to include all the really old school races and classes, but if they have room I would really like to see some of the wierd stuff in the core books.

My dream would be an 18 lb book with absolutely everything (even stuff I will never use), but then I take my meds and realize that's just silly.

Infinite Diversity, Infinite Combinations


But, if you like the core mechanics, and they include all the stuff you do like (the classes you want, the races you want), why birth a bovine over the inclusion of some races or classes you don't like?  So it's in the core book.  No one is forcing you to use it, or even to read the offending pages.



yes they are, worse than that they are forcing me to justify my non-use of it to the players who, after so many permissive editions feel entitled that anything in a core book "should" be acceptable by any reasonable DM, and if you dont allow somebody to play wacked out race your being unreasonable.

This point was driven into the ground in other threads... simply put if its in the core book, common perception will be that it should be allowable.

If what loki and I suspect is correct... I'll be getting a "if you like the old school feel, here are your options" rather than "if you like the new school feel here are your options" the new school (and all that comes with it, wacked out races, a world encon that makes no sense, endless feats, archtypes, specialties,prestige classes all to be twisted and optimized, etc) is what will be "standard" or "default" D&D, and thats just not something I want to have to battle over.  
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
fine, lets explain...

metallica, awesome band, just about all major fans of metallica will still tell you they might like a song or two off the newer albums, maybe it was even revolutionary for the music industry at the time, but almost all of them will agree the best stuff metallica ever did was on their first few albums.

likewise.... pepsi came out with pepsi clear a long time ago, looks like 7up, tastes like pepsi, has double the sugar, double the caffine. yep a lot of people liked it but not most pepsi fans. now pepsi clear is gone and pepsi is doin just fine without it.

Metalica is ok, but i prefer guns and roses.
Pepsi is ok, but i prefer coke.

Dwarfs, Elves and Humans are like Metalica, AC/DC, and Slayer, or pepsi, coke, and rc cola.  Their all the same same genre, all copies of each other.

I want a bach, evenesence, johnny cash, bill withers, big bad voodo daddy, dolly parton and mumford & sons.
I want gatorade, sprite, dr. pepper, ginger ale, hot chocolate, water, coffee and tea.

(i don't actually want dolly parton or coffee, but it would hardly be fair to deny others).


Sure, there's some races that are like pepsi clear, ones we really don't need to bring over, but there have been many successive band and drinks both before and after metalica and pepsi.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.