10/25/2012 Feature: "In Command of Commander's Arsenal"

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This thread is for discussion of the feature article "In Command of Commander's Arsenal", which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.

Ok wheres the part where they say if you really want this product well good luck, advanced stores are only getting 4 or 5, this is going to be rarer then from the vault. I really hate wizards for making this so limited. I have four shops around me, and no one will be selling this. They all will be used a tournament prizes because they are so limited quantity. Ebay is already selling at $250.  Awsome product, but whats the point if no one can get it.
Whoooo !!! So nice product ! But isn't the one that is "only-presale-on-ebay" for 250-300$ ?
Nice move Wizards !
The sad part is, most Commander players won't get to enjoy this at all. I love the idea, love the cards, love the extras. And I'll never get to appreciate it because I can't fork over the 3-5x MSRP needed to get my hands on one. How'd the prices get that bad? Something about stores getting only 2-4 maximum of this or something.

For something intended for Commander players, it looks like only the most affluent EDH players or pure collectors will be able to afford this.

What happened? Wasn't it proper to assume that just about as many of these would sell as last year's Commander decks?

This, to me, doesn't "let you all know that we're serious about supporting the Commander format."

Frown
Phew, what a relief, this product is so underwhelming I don't need to get worked up over how terrible wizards policy is regarding products like this, FTV etc. Could've done without the nauseating "look at me I'm quirky" writing persona. 
Okay, I realize this will make me the complete dork in the room, but I want that life counter so bad! Plus the counters are cool too, if only to put underneath a die so that you can tell at a glance what type of counter they are.
~ Current Decks I'm Playing or Building ~ (Click a deck's name to see list) [] CorpseJunk Menace/Township Counters (Standard) [] Reanimation/Clerics Theme Deck - Commander: Ghost Dad [] Devouring Tokens (Planechase, Multiplayer) [] Krark-Clan Ironworks: 2012 Edition (Modern) [] Azorious Turbo Fog (Modern)
I'm sure Gottlieb already knows this, but his coworkers...  well, the people who would have been coworkers had he been working at Wizards of the Coast in 2001...  already took the ill-advised Clue + fantasy wizards idea.

boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1663/clue-du... 
Chaos Warp is an instant, not a sorcery. Congrats once again, editors of Wizards.
I really don't understand why they went for foil sleeves. Sure they fit the theme of the box, but seriouslly, has anyone ever used a foiled sleeve that was worth a damn? Shuffle them up a couple times and the foil just starts peeling off the back. Now Matte sleeves would have been pretty hot . . . .
While we're on the subject, when were Decree of Pain and Sylvan Library printed in modern frames before this?
Say what you will about the set, but this article does a fantastic job of laying out what it contains.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

The life counter is cool, and I understand the appeal of the cards. They're not close to being worth what the Arsenal is selling for, though. Supply is way too low for a product designed to support a large player base. The only thing I would be willing to buy is the Clue game.
I'd like someone to explain to me why exactly a box set for a casual format is limited edition?
The sad part is, most Commander players won't get to enjoy this at all. I love the idea, love the cards, love the extras. And I'll never get to appreciate it because I can't fork over the 3-5x MSRP needed to get my hands on one. How'd the prices get that bad? Something about stores getting only 2-4 maximum of this or something.

For something intended for Commander players, it looks like only the most affluent EDH players or pure collectors will be able to afford this.

What happened? Wasn't it proper to assume that just about as many of these would sell as last year's Commander decks?

This, to me, doesn't "let you all know that we're serious about supporting the Commander format."



Indeed, I don't find the product worth it at its msrp (that means normal price right?)? Oversized card without the adequate cards? What's the deal? I have most of the cards but still, a bit silly to me.

Not interested at all, and that's a good thing because there's absolutely no way I could get my hands on one...

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The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

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Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

Is it worth getting at MSRP? Quite possibly. Is it worth getting at several times that? Hell no.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Well, this was a disappointment.
Ha, like Bolas could kill Urza.
I think this product is pretty cool except for the fact that if you have been dutifully buying wizards summer products you have a significant portion of the cards. Furthermore I spoke the the card shop I go to and he said he will likely only get 4. It is not okay that already you cant get ftv for less than $90 and this item will be even more limited? If magic is becoming more popular then WOTC needs to keep up production with demand.
My local store has just put this on for sale at £500 (nearly $1,000)!  That is completely ridiculous.

I reckon Highwayman will be on here in about 10 minutes to vent.
I really would have preferred the visual card for each of the 18. And they aren't all at a set rarity like FtV sets, which us super weird. Is that weird to anybody else?
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My local store has just put this on for sale at £500 (nearly $1,000)!  That is completely ridiculous.

I reckon Highwayman will be on here in about 10 minutes to vent.



Oh boy will I ever

/Rolls up sleeves/

/Pushes soap box into view/

/Gets on soap box/

/Picks up megaphone/

WHAT THE ACTUAL FOXTROT IS THIS PRODUCT DOING OTHER THAN ENABLING THE PRICE GOUGING TRADERS TO RINSE A FEW POOR SAPS WHILST IRRITATING THE REST OF US!??

This product does not support commander format - it is too expensive for a casual format, and too scarce.

This product does not get hard-to-get cards into circulation - again, too scarce.

This product does not endear people to commander format.

This product does, however, line the pockets of a few, widens the gulf between the "haves" and the "have nots", and slowly chips away at one of the charms of EDH (yeh, call it what you like wizards - you know that its EDH to most of us) - that it doesn't cost the earth.

And for the love of all things sacred, will you STOP trying to make oversized cards "happen". Its not going to happen.

You had all the market data to know that a limited product like this in such restricted numbers, with a couple of money cards in, would be sold on at many times the MRP to the universal disgust of your customer base. You know this, but you did it anyway.

This feels very similar to the backlash against an unaplogetic Ticketmaster for 'enabling' the Rolling Stones tickets to be acquired and sold on a tout resale site at ££££. Lawful, yes. But utterly inexcusable.
 
Shame on you, Wizards, shame on you.
Agree with Highwayman 100%.  How does this support Commander in any way?  By making it so scarce and expensive that it pushes most players out?  And what lazy card selection!  I already bought the Commander and Planechase precons.  I don't need or want a foil Mimeoplasm or Kaalia or anybody else.  For $75 (and who are we kidding, upwards of $250), you could have selected Doubling Season, Crucible of Worlds, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed or any number of cards people actually want.  Most of the other choices are spot on, but a bunch of reprints from recent precons are far from exciting.

And your article states that the oversized cards from the Commander precons were popular.  With who?  I've played with quite a few people who use those commanders, and not a single one uses the oversized card.  I have yet to hear anyone say anything positive about them, and the only other place I've seen them is collecting dust under glass at a few LGS's.  "Oh, but we also give you sleeves" you say.  Ultra-Pro's sleeves are universally awful, and the backs peel pretty quickly.  I'll never know why you maintain a licensing agreement with a company that makes such inferior product.

I actually think $75 is a reasonable price for what's included, but nobody's going to find it for that much.  So thanks Wizards, for completely screwing us on this one.

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Why even do previews for a product that's already sold out and nobody could buy? Isn't it a waste of an article to advertise a product that can't possibly generate any more money? 

It seems silly to get people excited about this because that excitement will just turn to anger. You should be playing the product down, telling people it's not for them. That way we'll be a lot less upset and more understanding about this whole mess.

Please, just don't do this again.  
To me, the price isn't even the worst part. That's to be expected for limited-edition products at this point, they always go for something insane. The problem, to me, is that the product doesn't even seem to have any effort put into it. Was the market for Commander precon cards really that dire? I'm not an EDH player myself, so I may be completely wrong here, but I am always excited for new products and, well... It looked good. For the first half or so. Then they spoiled the Generals that they put in there.

Weren't most of those just released? Shouldn't this be providing people with cards that would otherwise be hard to get for the format?
I agree with the previous FOUR posters! Well, at least four.

This set is already sold out. NOT because the demand is so high, but because the fulfillment portion was too low. All this set does now is make me agry: angry at the thought that I won’t ever be able to get my hands on these cards, angry that the people I play with won’t be able to as well, angry that it doesn’t support this format in any positive way. On top of it, I’m angry for getting angry! It’s a card game for Heaven’s sake, but you would think by now, after nearly 20 years of putting this game out, you’d know how to manage costs and print runs at this point.

So here’s a hint of what you can do: next year, when you’re prepared to put out a “proper” Commander product (and really there’s nothing freakin’ to it — ALL you have to do is duplicate what you did in 2011, no one is really expecting more than that… it’s what we want), duplicate all these cards and put them in the decks. Shouldn’t matter a bit, right? I mean, they’re all reprints. Now you can just reprint them again in quantities that people can enjoy. Then keep the sleeves. Keep the oversized cards. You may think they’re novel, but really, too few of the casual market even want them. Hang onto them for yourselves. You want to put something cool out? Try a Commander-based playmat with the Zones clearly indicated. Then, lastly, put one of those cool fancy counters in each and every Commander deck box next year. Cost you $8/unit to make? People won’t care. Just up the MSRP, you’re aready comfortable with that, even though these players want to spend as little money as possible. The counters, out of all the things in the Arsenal, are both cool and usable.

If it sounds like a lot of us are unhappy with you, it’s because we are. You guys really screwed to pooch on this one. And we really don’t want to hear any excuses. If you couldn’t make the product in the quantities demand would necessitate, than you shouldn’t have even made it available at all. 
I've gone from being very positive towards this product to quite the opposite. I live in Stockholm, a city of roughly 2 million. If we are lucky, there will be 10 boxes for sale in the entire city. There is no way in hell that I'll be able to get one unless I pay 300 bucks for it online. I figured that they'd at least make this as uncommon as the FtV-boxes, those are quite hard to get a hold of, but this is some kind of new low.

I have no idea why you'd release a product that's this difficult to find, people obviously want to buy it, but you only make it available to a select few. This means that it becomes an interesting item for speculators and that does nothing to help players.

Please make more Commander-boxes, those really supported the format. This product is just annoying to everybody but the lucky few who got the golden ticket to buy it at MSRP.

This is just bad PR for WotC and you really should have seen this train wreck from a mile away. 
I rather enjoyed the writing of this article at least.

The product is annoying, and probably bad for the format. ("Hey, new player, you should play this sweet casual format called commander!" *they make a face* "Isn't that the one that costs $Texas?") But hey, on the bright side, thanks to the extremely limited print run, Wizards will totally sell out instantly and have no incentive not to do this again! Man, isn't it sweet being able to charge $75 for what, from a printing perspective, probably costs only slightly more than a couple of those all-foil boosters they did? I imagine it is.

And hey, creating an air of exclusivity around it will mean the people who actually do get it will value it more highly, instead of wondering if they sincerely got their money's worth. Can't look a gift horse in the mouth right? They're one of the few, the proud, who have an oversized Mayael of the Anima and no one can take that away from them! I bet if this thing were printed in large enough quantities that anyone currently bemoaning their inability to buy it at MSRP could do so, a lot fewer people would want to.
I don't care that much about this product (sorry that it sounds like a rough time for people who do), but I really enjoyed getting to read Mark G. again.  Please write more!
Im not going to have any problem passing up on this. Thanks Wizards - I would have felt really bad if I had actually wanted it.

~ Tim
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
Who doesn't like dominating a table with their jumbo Riku?

-Mark Gottlieb



I think the answer to that question is: pretty much everybody.
I must add that it's extra sad that this horrible product release was paired with such an excellent and entertaining article. I'd like to see MaGo write more.

But give him a decent product to spice up next time.

I must add that it's extra sad that this horrible product release was paired with such an excellent and entertaining article. I'd like to see MaGo write more.

But give him a decent product to spice up next time.

Amen. Great write up except for the hype that was necessary to throw in in order to make a really sick situation "almost" palatable.

I know I'm getting old (72 tomorrow) and my eyesight is not so good but where did I miss the MSRP in the article? I just know it must be there because the $125-$400 prices it is offered for online just can't be right... Can they?

Gary
I must add that it's extra sad that this horrible product release was paired with such an excellent and entertaining article. I'd like to see MaGo write more.

But give him a decent product to spice up next time.

Amen. Great write up except for the hype that was necessary to throw in in order to make a really sick situation "almost" palatable. I know I'm getting old (72 tomorrow) and my eyesight is not so good but where did I miss the MSRP in the article? I just know it must be there because the $125-$400 prices it is offered for online just can't be right... Can they? Gary



the MSRP is 75 but don't expect to find it for that. It's going for 200+ nearly everywhere.
If Wizards actually looks at this forum, I want to add my displeasure to the masses. If this is something I could pick up at Walmart or Target, that'd be fine. But seeing as the MSRP will be $75 and have a limited-a$$ print run, that's not happening. I'll reiterate the previous comments; this doesn't support the format. Shame on you and stuff.

Oct 25, 2012 -- 3:07AM, Falcon_Uk wrote:

My local store has just put this on for sale at £500 (nearly $1,000)!  That is completely ridiculous.

I reckon Highwayman will be on here in about 10 minutes to vent.




Oh boy will I ever

/Rolls up sleeves/

/Pushes soap box into view/

/Gets on soap box/

/Picks up megaphone/

WHAT THE ACTUAL FOXTROT IS THIS PRODUCT DOING OTHER THAN ENABLING THE PRICE GOUGING TRADERS TO RINSE A FEW POOR SAPS WHILST IRRITATING THE REST OF US!??

This product does not support commander format - it is too expensive for a casual format, and too scarce.

This product does not get hard-to-get cards into circulation - again, too scarce.

This product does not endear people to commander format.

This product does, however, line the pockets of a few, widens the gulf between the "haves" and the "have nots", and slowly chips away at one of the charms of EDH (yeh, call it what you like wizards - you know that its EDH to most of us) - that it doesn't cost the earth.

And for the love of all things sacred, will you STOP trying to make oversized cards "happen". Its not going to happen.

You had all the market data to know that a limited product like this in such restricted numbers, with a couple of money cards in, would be sold on at many times the MRP to the universal disgust of your customer base. You know this, but you did it anyway.

This feels very similar to the backlash against an unaplogetic Ticketmaster for 'enabling' the Rolling Stones tickets to be acquired and sold on a tout resale site at ££££. Lawful, yes. But utterly inexcusable.
 
Shame on you, Wizards, shame on you.


You have covered it quite nicely Highwayman but there is one aspect I would like to focus on for a second.

As you recognize that the EDH players are getting something thrown on them please remember the collectors too.

This is supposed to be a "Collectable" Card Game but it seems that in the last few months it has become a "gouge the collectors" business. True, in some areas of collection things become highly treasured and sought after. The reason usually is because the rookie made it big or something happened to most of what was made (1804 dollar). But for a company to produce a scarce item on purpose just to gouge their customers and collectors is revolting.
I don't care about the product. I just want MaGo back.

He mentioned me once.
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56333196 wrote:
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Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]

So I just contacted my local game store where I frequently play Standard, Modern and Commander, and they are only getting one copy, which is going to the store owner’s son.

How is releasing a product to the massively growing EDH community helping the community when stores are only getting one copy. So nice of you to promote EDH, while being a major c***tease!

I understand that I must not be the target audience, but I really can't see this being worth $75 to me, much less the actual price. I already have all the sleeves I need, for a lot less than this. I certainly don't want oversize cards, in fact I actively un-want them. 

I do want Mark Gottlieb back, though.  

So I just contacted my local game store where I frequently play Standard, Modern and Commander, and they are only getting one copy, which is going to the store owner’s son.

How is releasing a product to the massively growing EDH community helping the community when stores are only getting one copy. So nice of you to promote EDH, while being a major c***tease!




A friend of mine hypothesized that this is like an FTV product in that, rather than rewarding players, it rewards stores by giving them a limited product they can sell at an inflated price.

However, unlike an FTV, this does not reward stores. Getting a set of five FTV boxes to sell at $75-100 each is a lot different than getting one Arsenal box to sell at $200+. It's not a reward. In fact, I'd say it was the opposite. They're shortchanging the stores, who in turn, have to sell the product at a high price to justify their margins, and the players get pissed off because it's waaaay out of a lot of their price ranges.

Nobody wins with this.
I just want to say that I would totally buy a magic branded clue game similar to what was spoke of in this article.

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Momir Basic Primer

You've got to realise that the pricing situation isn't Wizards' fault, though.  The MSRP could be $0.02, and places would still be charging $200 for it.

I do agree with most of the sentiments here, though.  It's great that we have this product, but Wizards is too conservative with their runs of these products.  A FTV-equivalent run would be ideal -- which is to say, rare, but obtainable for the average player.  And places would still sell it for $200.

I feel the contents are too 'fluffy' as well.  People keeping up with EDH and Planechase precon releases  already have most of these cards.  Why do I want to pay so much for a product which foils out ten generals I don't use?  I know there is avid interest in foils, but you surely must realise that there is a hierarchy to card acquisition, and playable cards come before foiling out your deck.  Sleeves and oversized generals are aslo a pointless aftereffect -- the the foil collectors (aka the people who will shell out $200 for this product) won't use your foil ultrapro sleeves anyway.

Still, I think people are blowing it out of proportion.  If you don't get one, you're not missing out on a whole lot.  Commander's Arse is clearly a cosmetic / vanity product for collectors and enthusiasts, and that's ultimately ok.  It's not what I wanted, but if I don't want it, I don't need to buy it.  In a way, having most of the card slots eate up by foiling out popular generals ensures that it doesn't actually widen the gap between the haves and have-nots.  If anybody has experience in the Free-to-play videogame market, they will know what I mean.  Paying your way to more for cosmetics is ok, but paying your way to significant gameplay advantage isn't.