Thinking of playing D&D

13 posts / 0 new
Last post
First off, I used to play AD&D back in the day.  Our group switched to WEG D6 after about 2 years of playing D&D and we've been with Star Wars RPG ever since, and we have been playing Saga for about a few years now, and I understand that the system is very similair to D&D 4e.

Anyway, the group recently decided that after we finish this current Star Wars Campaign (in about 3 or 4 months) we will play a different setting for a change, and we are currently tossing up ideas, but the general consensus is that we would play a Fantasy type game.  So the only question is rules.

Now, we all love Saga, so my question would be how similair is D&D compared to SWSE, and what are the differences (other than setting, just rules)?
192523575 wrote:
-In loving memory of all the Squirrel Jedi hunted down during the Dark Times.
"any eye for an eye leaves the world blind" "No it doesn't, there'd be one guy left with one eye" my custom miniatures http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75862/29829771/ChainmailJedis_customs
First off, I used to play AD&D back in the day.  Our group switched to WEG D6 after about 2 years of playing D&D and we've been with Star Wars RPG ever since, and we have been playing Saga for about a few years now, and I understand that the system is very similair to D&D 4e.

Anyway, the group recently decided that after we finish this current Star Wars Campaign (in about 3 or 4 months) we will play a different setting for a change, and we are currently tossing up ideas, but the general consensus is that we would play a Fantasy type game.  So the only question is rules.

Now, we all love Saga, so my question would be how similair is D&D compared to SWSE, and what are the differences (other than setting, just rules)?

Well, there are a number of similarities. OTOH there are a number of differences. SWSE IIRC uses a rather different multi-classing mechanism, and feats are arranged in a much more tree-like setup. I think the only way you're going to really know what you like is to play 4e.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
First off, I used to play AD&D back in the day.  Our group switched to WEG D6 after about 2 years of playing D&D and we've been with Star Wars RPG ever since, and we have been playing Saga for about a few years now, and I understand that the system is very similair to D&D 4e.

Anyway, the group recently decided that after we finish this current Star Wars Campaign (in about 3 or 4 months) we will play a different setting for a change, and we are currently tossing up ideas, but the general consensus is that we would play a Fantasy type game.  So the only question is rules.

Now, we all love Saga, so my question would be how similair is D&D compared to SWSE, and what are the differences (other than setting, just rules)?


There are differences, but your player's should have no problem picking it up. Beware though, AD&D is very different from 4e not only in rules, but in flavor too. 4e has a unique set of fluff that is system specific, and in many ways feels nothing like classic D&D. So if you enjoyed 1e a lot, there is about a 50% chance you will not like 4e. Not to mention buying into 4e with so little good books in print isn't all that good of an idea, WotC isn't making any new 4e material either. I would recommend either waiting for 5e, or going for say Pathfinder (Which if you don't know is a vtery popular remake of 3.5 that fixes some major system issues, and is completely reverse compatible with 3.5, not to mention it's free through the Pathfinder PRD), which has good 3rd party support, and still has a long life ahead of it according to Paizo.

YAY FOR BEING A 4E PLAYER AND A PATHFINDER ENTHUSIAST!!!   

Come to 4ENCLAVE for a fan based 4th Edition Community.

 

Disagreeing heartily with Felorn, you haven't played in a while so I would assume that you aren't totally attached to the 1e rule set or feel.  4e is a great system with a lot of really solid material.  There is no real lack of book material or anything like that.  I would avoid pathfinder if I were you it is a direvative of 3.5 which is a really rules and subsystem HEAVY game that isn't really going to suit you unless you were a huge fan of the d20 Starwars system of ages past.
Disagreeing heartily with Felorn, you haven't played in a while so I would assume that you aren't totally attached to the 1e rule set or feel.  4e is a great system with a lot of really solid material.  There is no real lack of book material or anything like that.  I would avoid pathfinder if I were you it is a direvative of 3.5 which is a really rules and subsystem HEAVY game that isn't really going to suit you unless you were a huge fan of the d20 Starwars system of ages past.


You don't know how long ago it's been since he/she last played, many people use "back in the day" for a good time in their life not necessarily 20 odd years ago. I also never said 4e doesn't have good material, it does, but most of the real good stuff is out of print. I also only suggested Pathfinder because it is so popular and very well supported. And just because it is heavy on rules doesn't mean it's unplayable.

Come to 4ENCLAVE for a fan based 4th Edition Community.

 

In Saga eddition did most of you take the talents or feats ( beyond force powers and starshaip manuvers ) that let you do a special trick or combat move 1/encounter?

All 4E characters have ( something like ) that as a core mechanic.

Many players make cards for their special attack powers and one shot feat actions just like the way some saga players make cards for force powers and starship manuvers.

If you hated that part of saga you may not like D&D4E.

Did you like the skill challenge system in gallaxy of intrigue?
Lifted from 4E. 
Although the named traits and descriptors listed in GoI for creating skill challenges was an added improvement. They all work in 4E they just were not named and defined.
( for 4E players that have not read saga this is stuff like " use skill X to remove a faliure, after X sucsesses different skills are used, that kind of thing)
The sea looks at the stabillity of the mountian and sighs. The mountian watches the freedom of the sea and cries.
I've played all versions of the games you're talking about it and I'll try and explain them as best as I can.

 Star Wars Saga was really the 3.5 system with the magic system stripped out and elements were used which were latter added to 4th ed. SWSE is the only real 3.75 as it is a hybrid of 3.5 and 4th ed. I would go as far to say it stripped out the bad parts of 3.5 and used the good parts of 4th ed. Star Wars Saga edition for the most part is closer to 3.5 than 4th ed.

 Pathfinder is more like a 3.5 version 2 or 3.6.

 If you like Star Wars Saga class and multiclass structure and don't mind overpowered spellcasters at higher levels 3.5 or Pathfinder is probably more your cup of tea. If you do not mind a grid based tactical combat with a more restrive class structure than Star Wars Saga but with Saga defenses, skill system and alot of powers go with 4th ed. Just be aware that.

3.5 is essentially dead, lives on via Pathfinder.
4th ed is essentially dead as D&D next is just around the corner.

 If you haven't played for 20 odd years and like modern d20 mechanics via Star Wars Saga D&D Next might also be an option for you. Thankfully there is free online 4th ed material, D&D next material and Pathfinder material to see what fits you best. I just can't remember the links. 4th ed and Pathfinder have the best support now though, D&D Next is only a beta test atm but is very retro feel as it is coming out in packets and only has 5 levels atm kinda like the old Basic Expert/masters system of D&D. I'm reasnably sure all 3 games have some sort of play before you buy online support.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

Now, we all love Saga, so my question would be how similair is D&D compared to SWSE, and what are the differences (other than setting, just rules)?



Quick and to the point response - it's pretty damned similar to SAGA, unsurprising since it was used as a sort of 'test bed' for the 4th edition of D&D.


  • Ability Scores are identical, although the characters of 4th edition D&D tend to have higher scores than SAGA characters.

  • There are 'races' you can play, although their list of special abilities are slightly longer than in SAGA, and their relationship with your ability scores is different; a halfling typically isn't as strong as a human, but a PC halfling is an exception to the rule, so there is no built-in penalty to the Strength score.

  • There is no Base Attack bonus or damage bonus. Everyone has to hit defenses, so everyone just adds half their level to all attacks.

  • Skills are very, very similar, although there aren't quite as many of them.

  • Feats exist, although most have no prerequisites. They're most used to get a +1 here and a +2 there, and are not meant to be particularly character-defining.

  • D&D has one additional defense than the three you're used to - basically, the Reflex defense you are used to has been split in two, with 'Armor Class' being used to avoiding most attacks, and Reflex defense used to avoid explosions and wizards bad-touching you with spells.

  • 'Powers' are the bread and butter of what you'd get as class features in SAGA. Most classes grant four combat Powers at first level, two that can be used at-will, one that can be used once per scene, and one that can be used once per day. These powers can be magical effects (either invocations of nature, arcane spells, divine prayers, or psionic disciplines) or martial arts.
    Note 1: Later 4th edition books tried to divorce non-magical folks from powers a bit, so they rely on stances and other 'class feature-y' type things. Just forewarning, so you don't look in books and say "WTF, this isn't like he said."
    Note 2: Yes, this means there aren't any 'subsystems' to learn, like SAGA's Force. Everyone uses a similar set of mechanics, although how a Wizard uses those mechanics tends to be pretty different from a Barbarian's approach.

  • Multiclassing is pretty different - you basically 'dip' into another class by spending a feat or three. Yeah, no 'Fighter 3 / Rogue 6 / Sorcerer 2 / Master of Silly Walks 4' builds.

  • Oh, all characters receive a 'Paragon Path' at 11th level (kind of similar to Prestige Classes, but you never leave your class; they're entirely additive) and an 'Epic Destiny' at 21st level (kind of like a second Paragon Path, but this one partially defines how your superhero leaves a permanent mark on the world).

  • Combat is pretty similar. D&D uses 'Minor actions' instead of 'Swift actions.'  Hit Points are a bit more narrative in what they represent; most 'healing' is sheer willpower, getting a battered character to push on by spending some of their reserves. In this case, the Second Wind mechanic from SAGA is taken a bit further. No damage threshold here! The action economy is a bit more lenient, letting you do more per round of combat via Minor actions than you could in SAGA. Diagonal movement on the grid is also less silly in D&D.


The DM should find running 4e a bit easier than SAGA eventually, especially when they see how nice the monster stat-blocks are.



  • Things might get a bit dicey if/when you try 'skill challenges' - they basically tried to take the roll-ey excitement of combat and applied it to non-combat situations. (They are just tough to pull off well; the helicarrier repair/Hulk containment/Loki blasting scene in 'Avengers' is a good example of what type of sequence a skill challenge should be.)

  • The other big pit fall folks trip into is assuming everything the players run into should be about their level in challenge, no matter where they are. It's a good idea to keep the players challenged, but the DCs do not scale with level - the situations do. The rules give challenging DCs per level without context, assuming the DM will come up with something suitable. For example, 1st-10th level characters may have a tough time climbing a rock wall, while a 11th-20th level character will be be challenged climbing up that same wall in tornado conditions. A 21st or higher-level character will be climbing up the tornado.

4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
One big advantage 4th ed has over Saga is the monsters as Threats of the Galaxy is a really bad book. Saga is more skill based than both 3.5 and 4th though as they are more important and you can do more with them due to the differences in setting (fanatsy vs space).

 You can have a highly valued skill monkey character in Saga that completely sucks at combat (think R2-D2/ C3-PO). Trying to duplicate that in 4th ed is a trap option unless it supplements combat. Its also a trap option in 3.5 unless you have an unusual game setting (urban based spy game or something).

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

There are differences, but your player's should have no problem picking it up. Beware though, AD&D is very different from 4e not only in rules, but in flavor too. 4e has a unique set of fluff that is system specific, and in many ways feels nothing like classic D&D. So if you enjoyed 1e a lot, there is about a 50% chance you will not like 4e. Not to mention buying into 4e with so little good books in print isn't all that good of an idea, WotC isn't making any new 4e material either. I would recommend either waiting for 5e, or going for say Pathfinder (Which if you don't know is a vtery popular remake of 3.5 that fixes some major system issues, and is completely reverse compatible with 3.5, not to mention it's free through the Pathfinder PRD), which has good 3rd party support, and still has a long life ahead of it according to Paizo.

YAY FOR BEING A 4E PLAYER AND A PATHFINDER ENTHUSIAST!!!   



One of my players has a copy of the Pathfinder main rule book.  Are there more sourcebooks, and if so which ones do you advise, and how much $$$ are they?

Disagreeing heartily with Felorn, you haven't played in a while so I would assume that you aren't totally attached to the 1e rule set or feel.  4e is a great system with a lot of really solid material.  There is no real lack of book material or anything like that.  I would avoid pathfinder if I were you it is a direvative of 3.5 which is a really rules and subsystem HEAVY game that isn't really going to suit you unless you were a huge fan of the d20 Starwars system of ages past.



I will discuss with my group which game we should switch to, and I will relay this opinion to them.


In Saga eddition did most of you take the talents or feats ( beyond force powers and starshaip manuvers ) that let you do a special trick or combat move 1/encounter?

All 4E characters have ( something like ) that as a core mechanic.

Many players make cards for their special attack powers and one shot feat actions just like the way some saga players make cards for force powers and starship manuvers.

If you hated that part of saga you may not like D&D4E.

Did you like the skill challenge system in gallaxy of intrigue?
Lifted from 4E. 
Although the named traits and descriptors listed in GoI for creating skill challenges was an added improvement. They all work in 4E they just were not named and defined.
( for 4E players that have not read saga this is stuff like " use skill X to remove a faliure, after X sucsesses different skills are used, that kind of thing)



Ehh i wasn't too big on the 1 per encounter powers, but Force Powers could be used more than once.  One character used Force Lightning 3 times in one round!

One big advantage 4th ed has over Saga is the monsters as Threats of the Galaxy is a really bad book. Saga is more skill based than both 3.5 and 4th though as they are more important and you can do more with them due to the differences in setting (fanatsy vs space).

 You can have a highly valued skill monkey character in Saga that completely sucks at combat (think R2-D2/ C3-PO). Trying to duplicate that in 4th ed is a trap option unless it supplements combat. Its also a trap option in 3.5 unless you have an unusual game setting (urban based spy game or something).


i actually don't have Galaxy of Intrigue, but as far as Threats vs. the monster manuel, yeah threats sucks, but richterbelmont10s NPC statblock available for download in his sig are way better, and function the way Threats was meant to.
192523575 wrote:
-In loving memory of all the Squirrel Jedi hunted down during the Dark Times.
"any eye for an eye leaves the world blind" "No it doesn't, there'd be one guy left with one eye" my custom miniatures http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75862/29829771/ChainmailJedis_customs
There are differences, but your player's should have no problem picking it up. Beware though, AD&D is very different from 4e not only in rules, but in flavor too. 4e has a unique set of fluff that is system specific, and in many ways feels nothing like classic D&D. So if you enjoyed 1e a lot, there is about a 50% chance you will not like 4e. Not to mention buying into 4e with so little good books in print isn't all that good of an idea, WotC isn't making any new 4e material either. I would recommend either waiting for 5e, or going for say Pathfinder (Which if you don't know is a vtery popular remake of 3.5 that fixes some major system issues, and is completely reverse compatible with 3.5, not to mention it's free through the Pathfinder PRD), which has good 3rd party support, and still has a long life ahead of it according to Paizo.

YAY FOR BEING A 4E PLAYER AND A PATHFINDER ENTHUSIAST!!!   



One of my players has a copy of the Pathfinder main rule book.  Are there more sourcebooks, and if so which ones do you advise, and how much $$$ are they?



For PF, it sort of depends on how you want to play. Past the main rule book you don't technically need anything because all the core stuff is covered under the OGL and is available for free on their website. There's a lot of optional side stuff (especially from 3rd parties), but between the Advanced Player's Guide/Ultimate Combat/Ultimate Magic/Bestiaries (all of which are free on their website) I've never found a need for any other content.

In practice you'd probably need to buy one of the Bestiaries (cost is about standard for a D&D style MM book) unless you have a laptop handy every time you play.

For 4E, I think if you want to give 4E a try the Encounter-night things are free (I've never done one so I can't really give you any info although I'm sure someone on here can). Seems like a nice enough way to give it a try before investing in one of the books or a DDI subscription.
 I would recommend trying before buying. None of the D&D systems are bad as such but it really depends on what you want. Personal opinon SWSE was the best d20 content made so far so if you really like that system both 3.5 and 4th ed may be downgrades (ducks).

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

There are differences, but your player's should have no problem picking it up. Beware though, AD&D is very different from 4e not only in rules, but in flavor too. 4e has a unique set of fluff that is system specific, and in many ways feels nothing like classic D&D. So if you enjoyed 1e a lot, there is about a 50% chance you will not like 4e. Not to mention buying into 4e with so little good books in print isn't all that good of an idea, WotC isn't making any new 4e material either. I would recommend either waiting for 5e, or going for say Pathfinder (Which if you don't know is a vtery popular remake of 3.5 that fixes some major system issues, and is completely reverse compatible with 3.5, not to mention it's free through the Pathfinder PRD), which has good 3rd party support, and still has a long life ahead of it according to Paizo.

YAY FOR BEING A 4E PLAYER AND A PATHFINDER ENTHUSIAST!!!   



One of my players has a copy of the Pathfinder main rule book.  Are there more sourcebooks, and if so which ones do you advise, and how much $$$ are they?



For PF, it sort of depends on how you want to play. Past the main rule book you don't technically need anything because all the core stuff is covered under the OGL and is available for free on their website. There's a lot of optional side stuff (especially from 3rd parties), but between the Advanced Player's Guide/Ultimate Combat/Ultimate Magic/Bestiaries (all of which are free on their website) I've never found a need for any other content.

In practice you'd probably need to buy one of the Bestiaries (cost is about standard for a D&D style MM book) unless you have a laptop handy every time you play.

For 4E, I think if you want to give 4E a try the Encounter-night things are free (I've never done one so I can't really give you any info although I'm sure someone on here can). Seems like a nice enough way to give it a try before investing in one of the books or a DDI subscription.

This.

You can find all the big Pathfinder rulebooks for free here through the official SRD: paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/                  

Though if you want to buy the books they are approximately the same price as 4e books. The Core book is 50 dollars but contains both the Players Rules, and Gamemaster rules, it is the most expensive Pathfinder book. But most other supplements, and modules are anywhere from 10 to 30 dollars like any other RPG. Big books like Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, Bestiaries (AKA the Monster Manuals), and Advanced Guides are about 35 to 40 dollars. Not to mention the huge amount of 3rd party support which the prices vary on.

Come to 4ENCLAVE for a fan based 4th Edition Community.