Rabidly anti-proxy?

32 posts / 0 new
Last post
Outside my local shops, I've only got a group of four other guys I play MTG with.  Unfortunately, three of them are vehemently against using proxies for any reason, even for playtesting new decks.  Their stance is that part of the skill in MTG is making do with what you have when building decks.  While I can see their point, I can't seem to convince them that spending $40 or more on cards for a deck that you might just pull apart after watching it fail is a bad idea.  We're none of us rich, and I'm the only one that's been playing more than a few months, so it's not like they've got some kind of card advantage they're going to lose if we playtest new, partially proxied decks.  I've been playing on and off since revised, and I've never run into this problem before.  Has anyone else?  Did you manage to convince the players that playtesting with proxies is okay, and if so, how?  Thanks for your input!!
It always depends on the situation, but I find proxying for playtesting purposes to be more than acceptable.

University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016

My Peasant Cube: A Cube for the Commoners

Playtesting proxies are fine if you do intend to buy them and if it's not a large majority of the deck. I'd hate to play a deck with 30 proxies. Getting the base cards of your decks and proxi the few remaining "unsure cards" is fine.
I love trolls Dont hate me because I'm blunt and you cannot handle it
Maybe you could convince them to have some "Proxy nights" where every player uses a certain amount of proxies in their decks to see if they want to buy those cards or not.
We came up with rules for our group.  The players who are against proxies were okay with it, if we used sleeves, and made sure they were approxiately the same thickness and hardness.  I've found photo-paper to work, if you print both a front and a back for it.

Funny enough (take this as you wish), the players most against Proxies were the ones who spent the most money.
Show
My Decks http://community.wizards.com/vennsvaults/go/forum/viewcategory/138835/Venns_Vaults My Bronation Station http://community.wizards.com/pony My 1000th post! On Thursday 03/13/2011! Yay St. Patric's day. How to play many other Casual Magic Formats http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29198663/?sdb=1&pg=last#521400213 Many of these were on the Magic Resources Site years ago. It was removed around the time 2HG became a sanctioned format. Purple Work Station http://community.wizards.com/purpleworkstation/go/forum/viewboard IMAGE(http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/images/2/23/Phyrexian_Loyalty.png)
If part of the skill in Magic is building your deck, then yes, you should feel entitled to proxy for playtesting. Just because you're proxying doesn't at all mean you don't have any deckbuilding skills. In fact, if your proxied deck works out the way you'd hoped it would, it frankly speaks to the contrary.

Now, if you're proxying solely to make an ass-kicking deck that you never intend to spring cash for, that's lame. But if your playtests help save you money in the long run but you end up with authentic decks that you're proud of, go for it. Nobody has any business telling you not to do so, although you ought to show enough respect for dissenters not to play them with your "fake" decks.
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.


I proxy quite a bit too, regardless of whether my friends give a damn.
Just get a nice glossy (cos matt finish will rub off) sticker paper and use the cards you no longer use for anything, like Zombie Goliath etc...

I’ve removed content from this thread due to a violation of the Code of Conduct.

You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...

If you have a question about moderation in the forums please contact Customer Service here: wizards.custhelp.com/




I proxy quite a bit too, regardless of whether my friends give a damn.
Just get a nice glossy (cos matt finish will rub off) sticker paper and use the cards you no longer use for anything, like Zombie Goliath etc...

Or use all of those lovely (read: otherwise completely useless) Fat Pack and FNM advertisement cards that plague boosters these days.
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.
Ask them how they would feel if you got a new job, on such good money that you could afford a playset of every card each time a new set comes out. Would they stop playing you?

~ Tim 
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)


I proxy quite a bit too, regardless of whether my friends give a damn.
Just get a nice glossy (cos matt finish will rub off) sticker paper and use the cards you no longer use for anything, like Zombie Goliath etc...



If you are doing that, you might as well make fake cards with MSE and see if your friends notice. Both are just as dishonest, but fake cards are funner (until your friends decide to buy one of their own).
Ask them how they would feel if you got a new job, on such good money that you could afford a playset of every card each time a new set comes out. Would they stop playing you?

~ Tim 



I would assume they wouldn't care as much about that and the issue is more so either using cards you don't have and don't intend to buy, or playing with some scribles on a basic land card.  From the sound of it I seriously doubt he is going through and printing up some nice representation of a card.  They are probably sitting there asking every turn "so what does that forest with illegible scribles or maybe even just abreviation of a name do again".  Takes all the asthetics out of the game, makes it harder to recognize whats going on by a simple glance, and it does feel dirty.

Personally I would be impressed if you were playing with some cool expensive card.  The more expensive the more impressed.  I become rather un-impressed if you have some basic land card or another card you don't care about that you took a sharpie and wrote initials of the card its representing on it.
The only problem I ever had was with a guy who didn't mind the World Champ Mirari's Wakes and Moment's Peaces I didn't have legit copies of, but who freaked out when I tried to play one of a half-proxied set of Rend Flesh that were in the mail. This after he said he had no problem with proxies. The next week, he asked if I minded him proxying Sol Rings for all of his decks. Confused the hell out of me.
IMAGE(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/225/8/9/bloodgift_demon_sig_banner_by_voidelemental-d46gjhm.jpg)
If they absolutely refuse to allow you to try proxies then you could goldfish a proxied deck by yourself.

Goldfish: play a game without an actuall opponent (a goldfish) to see how a decks draws are working out in terms of consistency, manacurve etc.

There's also the forbidden programm, where you can goldfish or just test online against other players.


Also, what actual cards do you want to proxy up? Maybe there's a deck like that over in the deck-building boards. Or you could just open a thread and ask for advice, whether the deck you intend to build will be any good.


I like the proxy night idea from infinight btw.
Situational, that's the best way to describe proxies.


I have a proxied legacy Zoo, that is currently Goyf-less. Why legacy? And no Goyfs? Legacy because I like my 2 foil copies of Wild Nacatl. And Goyf-less? I never intended to get them. Buying is one thing, avalibility is another.


If the cards are cheap or the vast majority (probably 20-30 card region) are proxied, that's being broke/lazy.

I also proxy on the belief of testing expensive deck ideas. You don't go and invest into a $250-$1k+ deck and then wondered why is was bad. You need to adjust stuff. I also have the Zoo proxied atm because it allows me to learn things too, like the other players and the serious legacy decks they have and it allows me to experience 1st-hand decks like CounterTop etc.

For those who do not like spoilers of anything magic unreleased...... DO NOT READ MY SPOILER!

Show
P.S. I know about Modern Masters and the Goyf-reprint
Decks I run
Show
I currently run a deck for Standard, Modern, Commander and Legacy. For standard, I have a typical, horribly budget Rakdos Deck Wins. For Modern, I have a B/G/U/W Draw-go Reanimator featuring my favorite creature, Wurmcoil Engine. For Legacy, I'm trying too hard to break Pyromancer Ascension. I also run a Naya Zoo with all the oldies. For Commander/EDH, I'm running The Mimeoplasm. A little morals thing about me, I like winning through combos, but not infinitely. However quiet, I am a Christian, so feel free to tell me you are too, it's always a relief.
How to be saved?
Show
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved and your house. Book of Acts 16:31
Cheers!
If they absolutely refuse to allow you to try proxies then you could goldfish a proxied deck by yourself.

Goldfish: play a game without an actuall opponent (a goldfish) to see how a decks draws are working out in terms of consistency, manacurve etc.

There's also the forbidden programm, where you can goldfish or just test online against other players.


Also, what actual cards do you want to proxy up? Maybe there's a deck like that over in the deck-building boards. Or you could just open a thread and ask for advice, whether the deck you intend to build will be any good.


I like the proxy night idea from infinight btw.


You can throw your deck lists up on Tappedout.net and also throw up a maybe board of cards you aren't sure about. From there people can give you advice on your deck, and it also includes a program that will let you goldfish. Though goldfishing won't typically tell you if Cloudshift or Momentary Blink is better.
57170298 wrote:
Borrowing the East Wind (P3) - Haha, it's like Hurricane but for horsemanship? That makes hilariously little sense. "Oh man, the wind is so much worse up on this horse."
57044478 wrote:
Jon Finkel can win a Magic tournament with a ham sandwich. That doesn't mean ham sandwiches are now the metagame breaker.
97820278 wrote:
Koth: I'm the first viable red planeswalker. Who are you? Tibalt: I'm a two-mana red planeswalker. Koth: I'm the last viable red planeswalker.
Well, that depends on if you're playing 1) blue, and 2) stealing.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
What is the situation? Are you practicing for a tournament or are the games kitchen table games for fun?

In casual play it is understandable that they would prefer not to face proxies but if both players are working on a deck for FNM then it makes sense to proxy cards which you are specifically considering putting into your decklist for the tournament (if the deck works the way you want it to).
Don't be too smart to have fun
Thanks for the advice, everybody.  They still won't budge.  *shrug*  Looks like it will just be me and the one other playtesting our decks. 
I sometimes get annoyed with one of my roommates who practices Magic by proxying the top decks and then running them against each other and other decks so he can figure out what makes them tick because I'm a scrub who prefers playing games I have very good odds of winning and Americles VS Seance.dec isn't much of a fight.

... I like to get back at him by building solid decks disguised as piles of jank so that I can laugh at him for losing to Pack Rats or Seance + Fervor. (To be fair to him, Fervor + Armada Wurm is painful)
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
I still think proxying for deck tests is fine, but that is it. It isn't fair when I invest money into a game, and you write on basic lands.
Personally, igot nothing against proxies, but if your going to use them, at least make them properly, I have played against players that had proxies with nothing more than the name of the card on a piece of paper in the sleeve, I am not ok with that, it gets really annoying when in the middle of the game I don't even know what that card is suppose to do.
Proxies don't bother me for the most part. When people proxy and just write a name on the card expecting us to know all the rulings on it and trust them that makes me mad. Don't just take a sticky note or a land and write just the name on it. List all the details and costs of the card please. Or just print them out so we can see them. I think proxies are a great idea because it helps you learn what works and what does not so you don't waste money on things you don't need.

-My method to proxying-
What I do is I copy paste pictures of the cards and put them in a word document. I resize them and lighten them so the words are easily readable but I save a ton of ink this way. I carefully cut them out and put them in a sleeve on top of a basic land (So it feels like any other card). This makes it easy for whomever I am playing with to understand the card because it is clearly readable. 
I know this thread is a week since dead, but I'd like to contribute a bit more.

Are they able to contribute a descent amount of money more than you to the game? If so, that's the rich trying to keep the poor man down, and they are less than good people.

Also, Whenever I proxie, I do it in MSE (Magic Set Editor).  I use the Firepenguin template, which doesn't look like any card border (so it's obvious).  I then take a jPg of the actual card, alter the picture a bit in Paint, and use its image to be the picture in MSE.  I then add all of the card text (including original Artist) and get them printed out at my local Meijer / Walgreens.  If you glue two of these "photos" together after cutting them out, they'll be closer to the propper thickness than a land with paper on it.  Then opaque sleeves take care of the rest.  Really, I do it, because I don't want to buy four playsets of Sol Ring, or Woodland Cemetery.  I'd rather have my one playset in a [DO NOT TRADE] binder and several proxies, instead of spending $15 x 4 x however many decks, or waste my friends time swapping out cards between decks, that may later be forgotten at home, so I may carry with me an incompleat deck.
Show
My Decks http://community.wizards.com/vennsvaults/go/forum/viewcategory/138835/Venns_Vaults My Bronation Station http://community.wizards.com/pony My 1000th post! On Thursday 03/13/2011! Yay St. Patric's day. How to play many other Casual Magic Formats http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29198663/?sdb=1&pg=last#521400213 Many of these were on the Magic Resources Site years ago. It was removed around the time 2HG became a sanctioned format. Purple Work Station http://community.wizards.com/purpleworkstation/go/forum/viewboard IMAGE(http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/images/2/23/Phyrexian_Loyalty.png)
I think the "answer" is more of a preference than a right or wrong solution.

But one thing I do have to ask though, how often are you proxying.


I would say once in a while, when you are prepping for tournaments, you want to test out your deck, then fine.


I see little reasons why you have to "test" out decks in casual (especially when you mention you could easily throw away). 
Also, if your turn-around time frame is quick, you should be able to trade/buy the cards, then trade them away for other cards with the same value. 

And if I play you every week and you bring a new deck everytime and every new deck of yours have at least 4 proxy, I would not be happy too. 

Afterall, it's the frequency and the occasion. It does defeat the point of "collectible card game" if you never acquire the needed cards.

And also, sometimes you have to go with the flow. I personally don't like proxies. One of my friends (we have a group of about 8) and only one of them always have a few proxies in all his EDH decks. I am quite annoyed about it but none of my other friends complain about it. We tease him sometimes but that's the extend of it. We never "ban" proxy. So I keep my mouth shut. I guess in your case, even if the consesus here on the forum says you can, you should repect your friends' wishes. Or find new friends? (no i don't recommend that lol)

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

[spoiler MLP]Congratulations, you've found My Lie Policy: Only when i'm prompted, i might lie. (policy still in the refinement process.) [/spoiler] [spoiler I am both rational and instinctive. I value self-knowledge and understanding of the world; my ultimate goal is self-improvement and improvement of the world around me. At best, I am focused and methodical; at worst, I am obsessive and amoral.]I am Blue/Green
I am Blue/Green

[/spoiler]
Not a problem if it is involved on playtesting for a short time. Sure, if you want to know if that playset of Bonfire of the Damned is worth on your deck, let's have some games with proxies, but don't come with "I'm still testing if they are good" two weeks later.

Interestingly, neither I nor my group stand proxies on casual play like Commander, and for good reason: first, the whole point of the format is to have fun with underpowered cards and see players come up with some interesting new twists on the decks, and the guy that wants to proxy the Cabal Coffers or the Sol Ring defeats that purpose. Second, if we start tolerating a proxy, a flood of them will come over and the whole point of looking and trading cool obscure cards disappears (what's the point of me looking for a Burgeoning if other player gets allowed to proxy the Rhystic Study?). It comes rude to some people, but I agree with it.
If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited
Almost everyone I know or have met needs to improve their penmanship. That is to say that basic Plains with "J/-|sE" scrawled illegibly on them are just disgusting.  And I've always hated to have someone give me a watered down interpretation of what a card does ever since my YuGiOh days. 

As such, I do not care about proxies as long as they are done semi-professionally, or at least the person making them has attempted to make them look decent. I have a friend that proxies everything except possibly basic swamps before he actually buys the cards. I don't mind playing with those cards around at all because he goes to magiccards.info, prints the proxies, and puts them in sleeves in front of real cards. They are even glued down so that they don't slide around in the sleeve. 

If the deck works, he buys the cards when we get whereever it is that we will play against other people. If it doesn't work, he saved some money to spend on a better idea.

Orzhova Witness

Restarting Quotes Block
58086748 wrote:
58335208 wrote:
Disregard women acquire chase rares.
There are a lot of dudes for whom this is not optional.
97820278 wrote:
144532521 wrote:
How;s a 2 drop 1/2, Flying broken? What am I missing?
You're missing it because *turns Storm Crows sideways* all your base are belong to Chuck Norris and every other overused meme ever.
It does defeat the point of "collectible card game" if you never acquire the needed cards.


Perhaps we don't want the needed cards.

I have three copies of Dovescape. They are all in the same deck, and that's likely the only time I will ever use them. If I go and put them in another deck, then I just made a worse version of the same deck. Same goes for Spitemares, Shivan Meteor, Cloven Casting, and other cards like that. 

Obviously, these aren't expensive cards, but they still take up the same amount of storage space as more expensive cards. Also, more expensive cards are more portable from deck to deck (Lands, super-powered creatures like Baneslayer Angel and Thragtusk). That said, I'm not advocating profuse proxying, but....   actually, I've forgotten where I was going with this.

I guess it's worth a proxy if you know you will buy cards if the deck works or if you know you simply won't use the cards outside of a particularly narrow situation. On the other hand, it's worth the money to pay for actual cards if WotC basically writes "You will get your money's worth out of this card" in the cards rules text.

EDIT: I guess I should mention that I don't personally use proxies. But I do see reasons why people would.  

Orzhova Witness

Restarting Quotes Block
58086748 wrote:
58335208 wrote:
Disregard women acquire chase rares.
There are a lot of dudes for whom this is not optional.
97820278 wrote:
144532521 wrote:
How;s a 2 drop 1/2, Flying broken? What am I missing?
You're missing it because *turns Storm Crows sideways* all your base are belong to Chuck Norris and every other overused meme ever.
Well, I only proxy cards that I'm trying to use in an upcoming tournament.  I don't really get to the LGS until tournament night, so I can either buy the cards and hope for the best, or proxy what I'm going to buy and test the deck before I get to the shop.  I don't proxy anything I don't plan on buying the night of, and because of that I don't proxy anything expensive.  The last proxy I used before I found out the guys had a problem with it was Thought Scour, because I didn't have any and they didn't have any they were willing to trade.  I found out about this issue when I was building a werewolf deck (for which I already had Huntmasters) and they didn't want me to proxy Moonmist.  What I have noticed is it's the three guys who don't play at gaming shops (and therefore don't fine tune a deck on a schedule) that have problems with proxying.  Since that's my two brothers-in-law and their roommate, I have to wait for their other friend to pop by before I can playtest...although now they're starting to get annoyed that he and I break off and playtest partially proxied decks against each other, even though they refuse to participate.  And this isn't a problem of the one with the money cards keeping the others down...I'm the one with the money.  I've got cards from as far back as revised, and they've only started playing within the past year.  I really think (at this point) that unless and until I can get them into some tournaments to see how finely tuned the decks we're playing against are, I've reached an impasse with them.

Thanks for the advice and support, everyone.
The last proxy I used before I found out the guys had a problem with it was Thought Scour, because I didn't have any and they didn't have any they were willing to trade.  I found out about this issue when I was building a werewolf deck (for which I already had Huntmasters) and they didn't want me to proxy Moonmist




It's a little sad that they don't have faith that you would buy those particular cards. It's definitely not like you were trying to get over or anything.   

Orzhova Witness

Restarting Quotes Block
58086748 wrote:
58335208 wrote:
Disregard women acquire chase rares.
There are a lot of dudes for whom this is not optional.
97820278 wrote:
144532521 wrote:
How;s a 2 drop 1/2, Flying broken? What am I missing?
You're missing it because *turns Storm Crows sideways* all your base are belong to Chuck Norris and every other overused meme ever.
I just love that this is "rabidly anti-proxy" and now we're talking about werewolves.

Also, does this mean that if I get bitten by them, I'll hate proxies to the degree I hate "randomizing [sic] my deck"?
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt