Inherent bonuses

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The Wish spell states that inherent bonuses don't stack. That means that if you want to get a Tome or Manual, you would have to buy the highest bonus you want for a particular score rather than spreading them out, right?

Example: you have to buy a +5 Manual of Gainful exercise rather that a +3 now and a +2 later.
You get the highest bonus. That means if you got a +2 Tome at some point and wanted to hit +5, you would still need a +5 Tome.
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I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
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When she meets CJ's mom?
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The Wish spell states that inherent bonuses don't stack. That means that if you want to get a Tome or Manual, you would have to buy the highest bonus you want for a particular score rather than spreading them out, right?

Example: you have to buy a +5 Manual of Gainful exercise rather that a +3 now and a +2 later.

nop you can only gain the bonus at max of +5 and in the case of use wish or miracle you need used it consecutive to stack, as example you can cast 5 wish in a row to gain +5 to one score but you can't use a wish to gain +1 and 12 second after use other wish for gain the +2 is still +1 because dont stack.

In the same case if you at lv 14 you  buy a book of +3, if you want more you need buy other more powerfull book, you can't stack with the book of +2 or +1.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
That's what I thought.

My shopping list just got a lot shorter!
@Oma: Wish specifically states that you can can 2 to 5 wishes in quick succession to get a higher inherent bonus.
@Oma: Wish specifically states that you can can 2 to 5 wishes in quick succession to get a higher inherent bonus.

yes i was saying that but you can only stack if you cast all the wish in a row.

wish

Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in "immediate" succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
I missed that line... My apologies.
I missed that line... My apologies.

dont worry but i think is the same if you read a book of +4 and immediate you gain the +4 you cast a wish to gain the +5
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Incidentally, unlike most ability-score-affecting things, the tomes and manuals scale linearly with each +1.  Because of this, I don't see a problem with buying them in "installments". I recognize that this is a houserule though, and most of the games I've run are too low-level for it (even a +1 tome is appropriate for characters around level 14, and I usually have games that peter out before then).

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Incidentally, unlike most ability-score-affecting things, the tomes and manuals scale linearly with each +1.  Because of this, I don't see a problem with buying them in "installments". I recognize that this is a houserule though, and most of the games I've run are too low-level for it (even a +1 tome is appropriate for characters around level 14, and I usually have games that peter out before then).

but remember the time, for a book you need "which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days" if you let a player stack the books, this player become very powerfull at a lower lv that the nomal if you play standard "15,14,13,12,10,8"


The time is a factor that dont let you stack the books.

if you stack the books a character get a +5 in one stats at lv 13+ - instead of 17
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
We may have a similar rule in my game... I'll have to ask my DM. If not, I will just buy a +5. We haven't been able to sell off our loot for an entire campaign and we have like 180,000 gp coming to us.
Incidentally, unlike most ability-score-affecting things, the tomes and manuals scale linearly with each +1.  Because of this, I don't see a problem with buying them in "installments". I recognize that this is a houserule though, and most of the games I've run are too low-level for it (even a +1 tome is appropriate for characters around level 14, and I usually have games that peter out before then).

but remember the time, for a book you need "which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days" if you let a player stack the books, this player become very powerfull at a lower lv that the nomal if you play standard "15,14,13,12,10,8"


The time is a factor that dont let you stack the books.

if you stack the books a character get a +5 in one stats at lv 13+ - instead of 17


Oma, I do play 15/14/13/12/10/8, as every one of my showcases says.

Since the books can't be afforded before level 14, and they get expensive even at that point, and they take six days each to read (note that if you're playing a high-level game and you give your players that much downtime, you're in trouble!), I don't think it actually breaks the game that wide open.

I suppose, given your poor record on communication in the past, I could have been clearer. My change does not replace the maximum +5 cap. You can't spend a year reading +5 tomes and walk away as Brainiac. This does let you buy five +1 tomes (the same total cost as one +5 tome) and read them over 30 weeks instead of just 6 to get the same result. That is all.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Incidentally, unlike most ability-score-affecting things, the tomes and manuals scale linearly with each +1.  Because of this, I don't see a problem with buying them in "installments". I recognize that this is a houserule though, and most of the games I've run are too low-level for it (even a +1 tome is appropriate for characters around level 14, and I usually have games that peter out before then).

but remember the time, for a book you need "which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days" if you let a player stack the books, this player become very powerfull at a lower lv that the nomal if you play standard "15,14,13,12,10,8"


The time is a factor that dont let you stack the books.

if you stack the books a character get a +5 in one stats at lv 13+ - instead of 17


Oma, I do play 15/14/13/12/10/8, as every one of my showcases says.

Since the books can't be afforded before level 14, and they get expensive even at that point, and they take six days each to read (note that if you're playing a high-level game and you give your players that much downtime, you're in trouble!), I don't think it actually breaks the game that wide open.

I suppose, given your poor record on communication in the past, I could have been clearer. My change does not replace the maximum +5 cap. You can't spend a year reading +5 tomes and walk away as Brainiac. This does let you buy five +1 tomes (the same total cost as one +5 tome) and read them over 30 weeks instead of just 6 to get the same result. That is all.

then in your team dont exist crafter that supplicate for death time :p to make high lv items, and are 48 hours in six days you fighter have 8 hours to read, 8 hours to sleep and 8 hours to 8 to gain EXP (while a standard battle dont past of 2 min) and at last the time is relative in the game all the player can say "we going to wait 6 days doing nothing"why you talk about of downtime for only this????? have +5 in one stats is a very powerful thing to let a player get easy.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
It isn't gotten easy, but it costs the same as actually buying the +5 tome. It's actually a bit harder to do since you have to take the time to read it each time.

Personally, I dont get the prohibition against these stacking. I know the general rules against stacking but this seems like a prime area for an exception. Just put a +5 cap on it and let them stack. Not too harmful.
I missed that line... My apologies.

dont worry but i think is the same if you read a book of +4 and immediate you gain the +4 you cast a wish to gain the +5


I'm not sure that is RAW either.  You can Wish for inherent bonuses and you can stack wishes "in immediate succession" but that does NOT mean you could use Wish to boost the bonus a book would grant you.

Maybe I'm missing some things but I can only think of two ways to get inherent bonuses to ability scores: the Wish spell and the various tomes which are based on wish/miracle.  In any cast the cost for those bonuses is linear instead of the exponential cost other booster provide.  A Wish scroll costs 28825 gp (and y ou can buy any number of them and use them for any number of things; a Ring of Three Wishes costs  32650 per Wish) while the books cost 27500 gp per +1 provided although they are a lot more focused in what they can do and the time it takes.  Now you could say the costs are linear because it's assumed that you'd be upgrading one step at a time and thus you'll have the +1 before the +2 and both of those before getting the +3 and so on; while this makes some sense it also goes a long ways toward discouraging anyone from boosting a stat unless you can get the full +5 bonus (or what ever you want it to end up) all at one.  A slightly higher stat now may be helpful but it may not be nearly as helpful as a much bigger stat boost a little ways down the road.
I missed that line... My apologies.

dont worry but i think is the same if you read a book of +4 and immediate you gain the +4 you cast a wish to gain the +5


I'm not sure that is RAW either.  You can Wish for inherent bonuses and you can stack wishes "in immediate succession" but that does NOT mean you could use Wish to boost the bonus a book would grant you.

Maybe I'm missing some things but I can only think of two ways to get inherent bonuses to ability scores: the Wish spell and the various tomes which are based on wish/miracle.  In any cast the cost for those bonuses is linear instead of the exponential cost other booster provide.  A Wish scroll costs 28825 gp (and y ou can buy any number of them and use them for any number of things; a Ring of Three Wishes costs  32650 per Wish) while the books cost 27500 gp per +1 provided although they are a lot more focused in what they can do and the time it takes.  Now you could say the costs are linear because it's assumed that you'd be upgrading one step at a time and thus you'll have the +1 before the +2 and both of those before getting the +3 and so on; while this makes some sense it also goes a long ways toward discouraging anyone from boosting a stat unless you can get the full +5 bonus (or what ever you want it to end up) all at one.  A slightly higher stat now may be helpful but it may not be nearly as helpful as a much bigger stat boost a little ways down the road.

i know for it i was saying that and because the book are based in the spell

now about of the "It isn't gotten easy, but it costs the same as actually buying the +5 tome. It's actually a bit harder to do since you have to take the time to read it each time."

buy 5 swords +1 is more easy to buy a single sword +5 is the same factor here because in the book the cost is lineal this a form balance it, for have a +5 you need or cast 5 wish (or maybe miracles) in a raw or buy a book of +5 only (lv 17 as standard)
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
But 5 +1 swords don't have the same cost as a +5 sword. Neither do they provide the same benefit. 5 +1 manuals have both the same cost and the same benefit (if you allow them to stack.)

The thing is, you won't be able to afford a +5 bonus any faster if you allow that. You won't have 137500 go before 13-14 level anyway and even then it would cost ALL of your gold for that. You would fall behind in a lot of ways without the items the game assumes that you have then.
But 5 +1 swords don't have the same cost as a +5 sword. Neither do they provide the same benefit. 5 +1 manuals have both the same cost and the same benefit (if you allow them to stack.)

The thing is, you won't be able to afford a +5 bonus any faster if you allow that. You won't have 137500 go before 13-14 level anyway and even then it would cost ALL of your gold for that. You would fall behind in a lot of ways without the items the game assumes that you have then.

yes for it, because the wish rule make a player do it for himself the cost of the book is lineal unlike the sword for it make the rule of dont stack unless are in immediate succession balance the game power of the books in the same point what happen if buying the +1 power of the weapon cost always 2000 a character will have a +5 very soon and the same the +5 bonus to stats is only for lv 17 as standard
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
 i know for it i was saying that and because the book are based in the spell

now about of the "It isn't gotten easy, but it costs the same as actually buying the +5 tome. It's actually a bit harder to do since you have to take the time to read it each time."

buy 5 swords +1 is more easy to buy a single sword +5 is the same factor here because in the book the cost is lineal this a form balance it, for have a +5 you need or cast 5 wish (or maybe miracles) in a raw or buy a book of +5 only (lv 17 as standard)


You know, mentioning five +1 swords actually has a place.

A character can start with a +1 sword and as he progresses he actually can improve that weapon to +2 and then +3 and so forth just by paying to cost difference.  In the end his +1 sword may eventually become a +5 sword but it isn't going to cost any more then a +5 sword would have in the first place.

To carry this concept to the various Tomes you could "upgrade" your Tome learning from +1 to +2 just by paying the difference in the cost between the two.  In this case it just so happens that the cost is linear instead of exponential.  After you've improved your initial +1 to a +5 you've only paid as much as you would have if you waited to use the +5 to start with.  This is just like with the magic weapon.
 
 i know for it i was saying that and because the book are based in the spell

now about of the "It isn't gotten easy, but it costs the same as actually buying the +5 tome. It's actually a bit harder to do since you have to take the time to read it each time."

buy 5 swords +1 is more easy to buy a single sword +5 is the same factor here because in the book the cost is lineal this a form balance it, for have a +5 you need or cast 5 wish (or maybe miracles) in a raw or buy a book of +5 only (lv 17 as standard)


You know, mentioning five +1 swords actually has a place.

A character can start with a +1 sword and as he progresses he actually can improve that weapon to +2 and then +3 and so forth just by paying to cost difference.  In the end his +1 sword may eventually become a +5 sword but it isn't going to cost any more then a +5 sword would have in the first place.

To carry this concept to the various Tomes you could "upgrade" your Tome learning from +1 to +2 just by paying the difference in the cost between the two.  In this case it just so happens that the cost is linear instead of exponential.  After you've improved your initial +1 to a +5 you've only paid as much as you would have if you waited to use the +5 to start with.  This is just like with the magic weapon.
 

yes but each update dont cost 2000 gps like in the case of the wishes for this the book dont stack because will be the same to upgrade the sword for only 2000 gps each time (overpower factor speaking)

each +1 is exponential in almost all items but in the books don't for it this rule balance the game now you can't buy many +1 book to gain the +5 like you can't buy 5 +1 sword to have a +5 sword.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
The thing is that you CAN buy a +5 tome for the exact same price you'd pay for FIVE +1 tome but you can NOT but a +5 sword for anywhere close to the price you'd pay for five +1 swords.

Do note I mentioned that the tome's linear cost COULD actually be part of a hidden "exponential" increase in each level of boosting.  It's just that if you can live without the lower boost you'll save a lot of gold by waiting.  It is this last part that makes the idea of stacking tomes somewhat reasonable.

If a character with a +1 sword eventually wants to get it upgraded to +5 he can wait or do it over time but the cost will be the same.  With the Tomes a character can either wait and do it later or he could do it over time BUT doing it over time will cost a LOT more under the RAW as each step is a completely new cost.
 
The thing is that you CAN buy a +5 tome for the exact same price you'd pay for FIVE +1 tome but you can NOT but a +5 sword for anywhere close to the price you'd pay for five +1 swords.

Do note I mentioned that the tome's linear cost COULD actually be part of a hidden "exponential" increase in each level of boosting.  It's just that if you can live without the lower boost you'll save a lot of gold by waiting.  It is this last part that makes the idea of stacking tomes somewhat reasonable.

If a character with a +1 sword eventually wants to get it upgraded to +5 he can wait or do it over time but the cost will be the same.  With the Tomes a character can either wait and do it later or he could do it over time BUT doing it over time will cost a LOT more under the RAW as each step is a completely new cost.
 

yes but the sword can be payed in parts and the inherent bonus not.

the rules make not stackable the inherent bonus to make a balance in the rules.

is overpower stack the books like a weapon that only need 2000 gps to be impoved each time you want an upgrade.

as example
A player lv 3 can buy a +1 weapon but a +10 is only for a character lv 18
A book of +1 can be buyed at lv 9 and the book +5 at lv 17 if you let the book stack a character can have the +5 at lv 13 or 14 is like give a magic weapon +10 to a character lv 14-15 or a magic weapon +5 to a character lv 6 or 7.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Arguing about RAW on this is kind of moot. Nobody is disagreeing that by RAW you can't slowly upgrade via Tomes/Manuals. This is a houserule. It's viability is up for each DM to determine. Don't like it? Follow RAW...

That being said, I still think it's a bad rule.

Oma, if you buy 5 +1 weapons you spent 10,000gp. If you buy a +5 weapon, you spent 50,000gp. Big difference.

If you buy 5 +1 tomes, you spend 137,500gp. If you but a +5 tome, you spend 137,500gp. No difference.

Its just a bad analogy.

It's still possible to buy a +5 tome at level 13 or 14 even if you DON'T let them stack since they cost the same either way!  
Arguing about RAW on this is kind of moot. Nobody is disagreeing that by RAW you can't slowly upgrade via Tomes/Manuals. This is a houserule. It's viability is up for each DM to determine. Don't like it? Follow RAW...

That being said, I still think it's a bad rule.

Oma, if you buy 5 +1 weapons you spent 10,000gp. If you buy a +5 weapon, you spent 50,000gp. Big difference.

If you buy 5 +1 tomes, you spend 137,500gp. If you but a +5 tome, you spend 137,500gp. No difference.

Its just a bad analogy.

It's still possible to buy a +5 tome at level 13 or 14 even if you DON'T let them stack since they cost the same either way!  

yes i know it and i was saying that the reason for the book dont stack is for the balance as you say all the book cost the same because come from one spell now if you want to balance the game for make the book iqual to the other bonus is make this dont stack.

and i was saying that if you let the BOOK STACK a player can get the +5 at LV 13 or 14 instead of 17.

this balance is for something, i was saying a example of an equal unbalance rule like let the book stack, make all weapon cost 2000 gps for each bonus and dont let it upgradeable. a weapon +10 will cost 20000 instead of 200000 in the same way let the book stack make a character buy a +1 book each time and take +5 very fast and unbalance or let a charactert gain wish as a lv 7 spell and let the character use wish each time he want and can to increase a stat until he reach the +5 remember that the books are based in wishes.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Personally, I think of the stacking rule for tomes like this... "Oh look, another copy of this book... I already know what's inside, considering I spent so much time reading it the last time, so I won't learn anything new by reading it again..."

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/11.jpg)

Well, my DM apparently had always played that they can stack, so this is moot anyway.

I see where you are coming from, but I disagree. And that's not just because I benefit from it.

From what you are saying, you would consider it more balanced to let them stack if the price went up exponentially rather than linearly, correct?

My with it breaking a character is that even if they stack and a character bought them one by one, it would still cost the same amount of money. Sure, a 14th level character could get a +5, but it would require almost all of their money to do so. They couldn't buy anything else. They would have a hard time surviving to enjoy their high ability score.
@red: but what if each increment has better information in it?
Well, my DM apparently had always played that they can stack, so this is moot anyway.

I see where you are coming from, but I disagree. And that's not just because I benefit from it.

From what you are saying, you would consider it more balanced to let them stack if the price went up exponentially rather than linearly, correct?

My with it breaking a character is that even if they stack and a character bought them one by one, it would still cost the same amount of money. Sure, a 14th level character could get a +5, but it would require almost all of their money to do so. They couldn't buy anything else. They would have a hard time surviving to enjoy their high ability score.

the problem is that you only look at the price instead of the benefit, again get +5 to a stat permanently and undispelled is very powerfull, now as say rex_subterrae1008 a form of view (very wise) it is that the book have knowledge and if you read the +1 book you already have that knowledge, if you read the +2 book you gain a new knowledge but is part of the knowledge to come in the other book for it you only gain other +1 for a total of +2, now try to understand that the form of balnce this not is the price is making the book dont stack.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
I see where you are coming from, but I am still going to disagree.

I understand the extraordinary benefit of a +5 tome. What I am saying is that even with stacking, the cost is still prohibitive for a 14th level character. He could afford this and nothing else. Even if he were to buy them one at a time, it would still take all of his available funds to buy each one.

Even if it is unbalanced, my game tossed balance out the window long ago... Besides, its a houserule.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
I see where you are coming from, but I am still going to disagree.

I understand the extraordinary benefit of a +5 tome. What I am saying is that even with stacking, the cost is still prohibitive for a 14th level character. He could afford this and nothing else. Even if he were to buy them one at a time, it would still take all of his available funds to buy each one.

Even if it is unbalanced, my game tossed balance out the window long ago... Besides, its a houserule.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

well is your game Tongue Out but a middle town will have the +1 book in your world is very easy get a +5 unless you dont let low lv character get it, but still is like give money to your characters maybe you need check it if a player with vow of poverty are in the group this will be under-under-power him
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
A middle sized town would still only have 1 or 2 at a time.

That would be a prime example of why nobody should ever take VoP...
A middle sized town would still only have 1 or 2 at a time.

That would be a prime example of why nobody should ever take VoP...

but you can do teleport (maybe greater) to go to each middle town or wait a month in a world when the time is irrelevant or in your world only exist 1 town??

OVERPOWER the fact of stack books. is the same to let wish to a character instead of limited wish.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Time has always been a factor in our campaigns...

I understand your concern here, its just not warranted. My DM is very experienced and has a reason for all of his houserules. Do they lead to a overpowering game? Yes (we are so houserule broken!) but that's the game he likes to run.

ps: the yelling isn't necessary.
Time has always been a factor in our campaigns...

I understand your concern here, its just not warranted. My DM is very experienced and has a reason for all of his houserules. Do they lead to a overpowering game? Yes (we are so houserule broken!) but that's the game he likes to run.

ps: the yelling isn't necessary.

the why non only buy 5 scrolls of wish and use it when you need???? instead of read a book
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
I guess if you want to look at things in terms of magic item availability then aquiring five +1 tomes is the same as getting a single +5 tome despite having the same total cost.  At 27500 gp a +1 tome is only available in a Large City or bigger (DMG pg 137) and even a metropolis could only have up to a +3 tome.  This all means it is "impossible" to actually buy a +5 tome (sticking to the core book) along with a number of other things despite them having values given.

Although it is a touch more expensive overall you could still just walk into a Large City and buy five Scrolls of Wish to get that +5 Inherent bonus that way.
 
Of course to buy a +1 sword you're going to need to find a Large Town.  It will take a Small City to find a +2 weapon, a Large City to find a +3 or +4 weapon, and a Metropolis to find anything in the +5 to +7 equivalent range.  All this means is that you can get a +5 Inherent Bonus to an ability score by finding a Large City but finding a +5 weapon may take a metropolis.
 
I guess if you want to look at things in terms of magic item availability then aquiring five +1 tomes is the same as getting a single +5 tome despite having the same total cost.  At 27500 gp a +1 tome is only available in a Large City or bigger (DMG pg 137) and even a metropolis could only have up to a +3 tome.  This all means it is "impossible" to actually buy a +5 tome (sticking to the core book) along with a number of other things despite them having values given.

Although it is a touch more expensive overall you could still just walk into a Large City and buy five Scrolls of Wish to get that +5 Inherent bonus that way.
 
Of course to buy a +1 sword you're going to need to find a Large Town.  It will take a Small City to find a +2 weapon, a Large City to find a +3 or +4 weapon, and a Metropolis to find anything in the +5 to +7 equivalent range.  All this means is that you can get a +5 Inherent Bonus to an ability score by finding a Large City but finding a +5 weapon may take a metropolis.
 

thats number are out of sense because you don't are the only person to try to sell and as example city of brass have a limit of 300,000 gp only in a city of more that 500,000 persons, think that only you spend all the gps of the city is wierd, more if you know that exist more that 1 shop in the city, this mean that in a metropolis with have 10% of shops have in all only weapons +1 because if have more expensive thing the limit of the city will be broken.

a character lv 20 have 760 000 gps in items and a standar metropolis have only 10000 as limit, this part of the D&D is too bad.

a npc Lv 20 let to the party more that 110 000 gps (selling the loot)
the standard treasure of a SINGLE encounter lv 20 is 80 000 gps

for it i used the Never winter Night Market limit.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

a npc Lv 20 let to the party more that 110 000 gps (selling the loot)
the standard treasure of a SINGLE encounter lv 20 is 80 000 gps

for it i used the Never winter Night Market limit.


I didn't understand most of your post but will just point out that a NPC does have more gp in equipment then the standard encounter award for a challenge of that difficult.  If you read it also states that part of the reason for that is that some of the NPC's "equipment" could/should be in the form of consumables which SHOULD be used liberally before the PCs get their hands on the things they have; an example of this that I use is giving NPCs Oil of Greater Magic Weapon instead of true magic weapons as it gives me all the benefits of a strong magic item but none of the long term problems.
 

a npc Lv 20 let to the party more that 110 000 gps (selling the loot)
the standard treasure of a SINGLE encounter lv 20 is 80 000 gps

for it i used the Never winter Night Market limit.


I didn't understand most of your post but will just point out that a NPC does have more gp in equipment then the standard encounter award for a challenge of that difficult.  If you read it also states that part of the reason for that is that some of the NPC's "equipment" could/should be in the form of consumables which SHOULD be used liberally before the PCs get their hands on the things they have; an example of this that I use is giving NPCs Oil of Greater Magic Weapon instead of true magic weapons as it gives me all the benefits of a strong magic item but none of the long term problems.
 

The book say too that items don't count in the gp limit because not are lootable, as example a NPC lv 20 can have the 6 book of Inherent bonuses +5 readed and her 220 000 in looteable items.

If your NPC start with the oil in the weapon this item don't count in her looteable treasure but if you in the battle waste your turn in put it then count it (because some PC can kill her in the first turn and loot it)

but this come in how a NPC can give more that a full metropolis GPS limit  then only the minor wondrous items exist in stock because 4 Cloak of resistance +5 and a simgle dagger break the economy of the metropolis.

I only say that if you use this rule you will have a weapon + 5 only at epic levels and never the epic weapons.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Once again I'm having a hard time following you Oma.  I do wonder where you see that any "consumables" a NPC may have used before the start of an encounter, yet are still active during the encounter, will not count against the NPC's equipment value.  I know that I have seen stated that while the NPC's equipment may be valued higher then the normal treasure allotment for that CR some of it may be in consumable that should be used by the NPC and ALL of it should be usable against the PCs.

You're tell me that I could freely give all of my NPCs +5 inherent bonuses to all of their stats because I could just give them books that do NOT count against their equipment value.  I hope you see the problem with that although I have my doubts.

I will also point out that while the NPCs may have equipment that in more valuable then the normal treasure available for that CR they are still a LOOOOOOONG ways behind the PC's equipment value at least once you've gone up a few levels.  If you really want to "equip" a NPC with gear to match a PC you basically NEED to use consumables to boost them if you want to stay within the value guidelines; giving an NPC a +5 weapon is prohibitive but giving them an oil that provides +5 (and will last all day) is a LOT more reasonable.

I'll point out that the GP limit listed in the DMG is the maximum value for any single item.  In a metropolis you can find items up to 100,000 gp in value but there is no limit on how many such items you can find.  Cities do have a limit on how much stuff PC can SELL but I don't see any other limits on what they can buy.

A 20th-level NPC may have 220,000 gp in equipment but if you follow guidelines no more then half of that should ever be in a single item which means it is probably available in a metropolis. 
1- ooo ok I was read wrong the limit of the total weath of a city then with 25 001 peoples you can only buy items of at max 100 000 and a total wealth in the city are 125 001 000 (1/10 the poblation (25001/10)*1/2 of the simgle item limit (100 000/2)) but at lv 14 you can go to other plane realms like city of brass with 300 000 in simgle item limit and a total wealth of 11 250 000 000 gps

2- the NPCs lv 20 have more that 220 000 because this are a plus of her standards items described

the part that say about the NPCs and other items if you dont like the standard
a lv 20 NPC can buy a weapon +5

and the books are for epic rules that in standar they need buy its.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
1- ooo ok I was read wrong the limit of the total weath of a city then with 25 001 peoples you can only buy items of at max 100 000 and a total wealth in the city are 125 001 000 (1/10 the poblation (25001/10)*1/2 of the simgle item limit (100 000/2)) but at lv 14 you can go to other plane realms like city of brass with 300 000 in simgle item limit and a total wealth of 11 250 000 000 gps

2- the NPCs lv 20 have more that 220 000 because this are a plus of her standards items described

the part that say about the NPCs and other items if you dont like the standard
a lv 20 NPC can buy a weapon +5

and the books are for epic rules that in standar they need buy its.


1.  Too bad the City of Brass's higher GP limit isn't mentioned in the DMG.  I know the MIC does mention the "Planar Metropolis" but it isn't core so I was leaving it out of the discussion.

2.  The 20th-level NPC may have slightly more then 220,000 gp worth of equipment but you need to look at the right figures.  The NPC entries may list "standard items" but that list also mentions a gp value and THAT is the figure you need to use to purchase additional equipment.  To look at a 20th-level NPC Sorcerer from the DMG:

Amulet +2 (8k), Bracers +5 (25k), Ring +2 (8k), +1 melee (2k), mwk ranged, Cloak +6 (36k) + 140k gp. = 219k odd gp worth of equipement with the "missing" gp covering the mundane costs not listed.

Table 4-23 on pg 127 is the gear value you use to equip NPCs from scratch.  In a lot of ways it is just like Table 5-1 (Character Wealth by level) except that is for NPCs while the other is for PCs.  You should notice a "slight" difference between the two with a 20th-level NPC having 220k gp for equipment but a 20th-level PC expected to have 760k gp worth of stuff. 
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