Mill vs land destruction vs Discard

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which one of these is the most annoying and boring to play against? 

which ones do you think belong in duels and which ones don't. 
In order of ascending dislike:

Mill is fine I think. It's not boring to play against because it's not inhibiting what you have, only what you'll get, and unless you're paying obsessive attention to it, you won't notice either way.

Dedicated Discard is annoying. Top-decking on turn 4 (if not earlier) is very disheartening... The upside: once they've emptied your hand, a lot of their cards are going to be dead anyway. Mind Rot loses a lot of it's effectiveness when your opponent is top-decking.

Land Destruction is.... bad. Especially since DotP is woefully underequipped to deal with it. Mindstorms would be auto-lose against even simple 1for1s like Stone Rain. If it's the basis of the deck, you know there's going to be a lot of it in there. I say Land Destruction is, by a ginormous margin, the most annoying and least fun to play against of the three and the only one that has absolutely no place in DotP.

Wildfire is one of my favorite cards in Magic and I'm seriously on the fence about whether I would want to see a deck with a single copy of it in DotP....
Pretty much in agreement with Splattercat here. Mill can be annoying in the sense it's somewhat uninteractive as it doesn't really attack what you're doing on the board, just one of your resources (which is a commonaility seen in all of these actually, and also why pure burn is also seen as an annoyance I bet). Still, the library was random to begin with, so there was no guarantee you would have drawn any of the cards you're seeing milled. So you still get to play Magic.

Discard is next as it's quite hated by many as it directly takes away cards you were set on playing. Still, you negate discard effectiveness by playing faster decks or being able to work off the topdeck. Gives you a sense of virtual card advantage against your opponent if you can do that. Not an option for all decks obviously though.

Then there is land denial, which can get over the top and dumb because it literally stops you from playing the game if it's severe enough. Although, I wouldn't mind a singleton of something like Armageddon from time to time, kind of like how we got Desolation Angel in 2012. As long as it's not dedicated LD, it's not actually that big of an annoyance.

LD can be played around with a fast deck too.  Personally the most boring deck I've ever had the pleasure of playing was a mill deck, but without any mill cards.  It was a deck based on Elixir of Immortality and every other card being an answer i.e. Wrath of God, Counterspell, Oblivion Ring etc.  The deck would just answer everything and replenish the deck and its own life with Elixir, while the opponent eventually ran out of cards 

Originally, I just kind of looked at each ability in isolation and in the extremes (all mill deck, all discard, all LD). All can be beyond annoying when paired up with other aspects, but by themselves are susceptible to certain actions and I wanted to compare on the different ways they impair the receiving player's ability to play Magic. Mill puts you on a clock of it's own, but the spells are widely seen as inefficient and narrow where board influencing cards can be stronger. It only attacks your already random library, leaving you with both your lands, hand, and new draws. It doesn't necessarily hinder your ability to play Magic.

Discard actually begins to attack something important, but by itself can't really win. Reduces your initial options by eliminating your hand, but your manabase remains intact. Might slow down your pacing by forcing you to toss some back up lands, but continued topdecking ultimately means you'll be able to cast anything in your deck.

Land destruction directly removes the most common resource used to play Magic. Without lands, it's significantly harder to get things into play. Still, if they only have LD cards, they aren't exactly winning the game, but they aren't exactly letting you play anything either. Definately reduces the viable options you could be playing which leads to very unexciting experiences.

So... I agree that LD can be kind of countered by quick decks as well, but I think if we assume some kind of answers to threats are put into these decks as well as their "annoying" factors, LD ends up having a more stagnant effect on decks and the game. I mean, you could just go Turn 1 Savannah Lions, and likely beat them down if their deck is only LD cards, but I think they'll have to have some means of winning. To illustrate, a deck I think Splattercat has somewhat enjoyed discussing in the past would start as early as turn 2 denying your resources with Eye of Nowhere followed by copies of Stone Rain. Leaving behind little lands for you to play with, it would then close out the game with Wildfire and Magnivore. Any early threats were suspect to sweepings by Pyroclasm as well.

So the deck could keep you from playing your spells, forcing you to discard them, and anything you might start casting, will just get swept away until they draw into their win-con. If we now were looking at a discard deck, it's possible they can get you topdecking early, on top of answering your threats as well, but they are unlikely able to actually prevent you from casting more spells as the game goes on since discard is rarely instant speed granting you some options off the topdeck. Not to mention, we've seen a number of answers that can bounce back from discard like graveyard recusions and creatures like Obstinate Baloth.

Once you start pairing discard with LD though, like through Smallpox, I'm sure you're going to get some unhappy players on the other side of the table. Especially if your deck is built to work off it by using some of black's recurision creatures.

Actually now that I've thought about it from writing this post, I find the really slow, grindy decks the worst to play against. So I definately hate decks like the mill deck you mentioned. While LD or discard can be bad because they make you feel like you aren't playing Magic, they don't generally draw out games all the time. Often it's a means of preventing you from doing anything, but they still advance their gameplan leading to an easy victory. If I have no lands, I'm just going "pass" and that leads to an early concession or beatdown victory. If a deck is just slowly sweeping the board until it mills me out, the game isn't necessarily decided early, which just makes for a boring game when a victor is finally decided.

(Okay, this post went on for too long. It was short, but then I felt like I had more to talk about making this all feel jumbled together when I added to it.)
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />So... I agree that LD can be kind of countered by quick decks as well, but I think if we assume some kind of answers to threats are put into these decks as well as their "annoying" factors, LD ends up having a more stagnant effect on decks and the game. I mean, you could just go Turn 1 Savannah Lions, and likely beat them down if their deck is only LD cards, but I think they'll have to have some means of winning. To illustrate, a deck I think Splattercat has somewhat enjoyed discussing in the past would start as early as turn 2 denying your resources with Eye of Nowhere followed by copies of Stone Rain. Leaving behind little lands for you to play with, it would then close out the game with Wildfire and Magnivore. Any early threats were suspect to sweepings by Pyroclasm as well.


Yes, I ran a beta of that deck (not nearly optimal, no rare dual-lands, no sideboard etc.) at a FNM once and it was very successful.

The other one I mentioned elsewhere was Terravore. Early Ramp, Early LD, drop a Terravore at some point, then turn 5 or 6 Wildfire FTW. This was ridiculous because if you note the text on Wildfire, the lands are sacced before the damage is dealt, so the Terravore would always survive to be about 10/10 Trample and attacking (the Magnivore I had to be more careful with). It was fast, it was laced with burn and some other removal (Demolish, Hull Breach etc.) and of course, other creatures. But most of all, unless you were ready for it, whether via counter or instant speed Terravore removal, Wildfire was a game ender.

Land destruction by a country mile
Land destruction by a country mile



True, and I'm from Oklahoma so I know what a country mile is.

Mill sucks, but those are cards I don't have in hand anyways.  Atleast I still have cards to play with.  Turbo Mill, well the game will be over fast.  Slow Mill, I've got time to interact with my opponent.  (underlined because this is a theme here)

I hate discard.  But atleast I'll be drawing a card every turn that I can potentially play.  Once I hit my 4th or 5th land, i'll be able to play the majority of my cards and my opponent and I can start interacting with each other on the battlefield.  Also, there are a lot of cards that are useful in the graveyard.  And some that go to the battlefield, go back in my deck, or do some effect when they get sent there.  Normally; you will know the "Meta Game" where you are going to be playing, so you will be prepared when you face the guy who insists on playing this.  Or you will have a sideboard with atleast a few cards prepared for this.

Land destruction is the most degenerate way to play the game.  It's highly successful.  I mean, simply stated, it just wins.  Counterspells are having the ability to play lands from the graveyard are pretty much the only way to combat it.  It attacks the very foundation of the game.  With out lands, I cannot cast spells.  With out being able to cast spells, I am unable to interact with my opponent, the battlefield or anything at all.  And the thing is, Land Destruction comes in every form.  Even creatures, so it's unlikely that all they are doing is destroying lands.  While all I'm doing is draw one, discard one. 

Magic is a game.  And not a solitary game.  It is a game designed to allow people to interact with each other.  Once you remove that element, you are no longer playing a game.  You are simply going through the motions.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

Mill - I admit, I dislike mill, I don't see what the appeal is. It was really hyped at the relase of DotP 2013 that we had a mill deck. I find mill strategies to be pretty uninteractive. What's that, you have superior board position, 18 life, and will probably win in 1-2 more turns? Doesn't matter, you ran out of deck, you lose. I find that lame. However, even though I don't like playing a mill strategy or playing against it, I am glad to have a mill deck in the game, because it adds variety to the decks.

Discard - I really enjoy discard as a control player. Discard spells have their inherant disadvantages, such as Mind Rot being a dead card if your opponent's hand is already empty. Also discard doesn't deal with anything on the board already, so playing discard usually means a trade-off between board presence, or removing your opponent's threats for that turn. It's balanced, and I don't have a problem seeing it.

Land Destruction - I don't really want to see a dedicated LD theme. Ancient Wilds can already play a LD strategy, and while I wouldn't advocate taking that away, I wouldn't support a deck with 12 LD spells in this format. I would however, support mass LD in a limited form, like a  deck having 1-2 Wildfire, or something like Dark Heavens with Desolation Angel. Those would simply be good finishing cards, just like Griselbrand and Demigod of Revenge, and I would enjoy seeing something like this for the upcomming Gruul deck.   
Duels of the Planeswalkers 2013 deck builds and analysis: http://megamaster125.angelfire.com/dotp2013/ Another one of my websites: http://megamaster125.angelfire.com/rationalchristianity/ I am Blue/White

which ones do you think belong in duels and which ones don't. 


All of them are part of MTG so IMO all of them should be included in Duels.
I don't want every mechanic like Infest to be included, but those general strategic aspects (attacking not only life, but library, hand or mana) should at least be shown to newer players by single cards or decks.
The only important thing for me is that decks are balanced.
I am not annoyed by any of them because they are part of the core Magic experience.  I have never understood people who quit when I use a Counterspell on their big bomb, or quit because I Natural Order into a Terastodon and lighten their land base.

I think a lot of (casual) Magic players would be happy if the game was about nothing but casting creatures and attacking with them, but as someone who has been playing since 1993 the only things I find annoyingly unbalanced are specific cases, such as Umezawa's Jitte, certain uses of the Indestructible mechanic, and Annihilator in the Eldrazi block.

Oh, and Locus lands.  Those were pretty broken.
There is a new card in RtR, Shrieking Affliction, which makes dedicated discard a viable win-con. Multiple instances of this on the battlefield can eat your life total fast. Now you can safely hold onto that Mind Rot and wait for your opponent to reach two cards in hand, then make him get rid of them. Very annoying!
There is a new card in RtR, Shrieking Affliction, which makes dedicated discard a viable win-con. Multiple instances of this on the battlefield can eat your life total fast. Now you can safely hold onto that Mind Rot and wait for your opponent to reach two cards in hand, then make him get rid of them. Very annoying!



Is there really a standard deck based around that card? Honestly, I can't see it being much better than liliana's caress or megrim, since Shrieking Affliction suffers from some of the same problems as those cards.
Duels of the Planeswalkers 2013 deck builds and analysis: http://megamaster125.angelfire.com/dotp2013/ Another one of my websites: http://megamaster125.angelfire.com/rationalchristianity/ I am Blue/White

Is there really a standard deck based around that card? Honestly, I can't see it being much better than liliana's caress or megrim, since Shrieking Affliction suffers from some of the same problems as those cards.



I disagree.. the Caress and Megrim need continued active discard to be effective, so a top-decking opponent casting spells as he draws them won't take damage.  Whereas with Shrieking Affliction, the opponent is still losing 3 life a turn per enchantment while doing this.

There is a new card in RtR, Shrieking Affliction, which makes dedicated discard a viable win-con. Multiple instances of this on the battlefield can eat your life total fast. Now you can safely hold onto that Mind Rot and wait for your opponent to reach two cards in hand, then make him get rid of them. Very annoying!



Is there really a standard deck based around that card? Honestly, I can't see it being much better than liliana's caress or megrim, since Shrieking Affliction suffers from some of the same problems as those cards.



I was just replying to all the comments about how discard is dead once your opponent's hand becomes empty. Keeping their hand empty to deal damage, and dealing damage based on discard are different animals entirely. If your opponent is in top-deck mode, he can just play cards against Liliana's Caress and Megrim and suffer no consequences for playing them. Against those cards, keeping your hand empty is optimal. Against Shrieking Affliction, keeping your hand empty hurts you.

I'm not saying it will see standard play, but it could be powerful in this limited environment.

Is there really a standard deck based around that card? Honestly, I can't see it being much better than liliana's caress or megrim, since Shrieking Affliction suffers from some of the same problems as those cards.



I disagree.. the Caress and Megrim need continued active discard to be effective, so a top-decking opponent casting spells as he draws them won't take damage.  Whereas with Shrieking Affliction, the opponent is still losing 3 life a turn per enchantment while doing this.




Beat me to it!
There is a new card in RtR, Shrieking Affliction, which makes dedicated discard a viable win-con. Multiple instances of this on the battlefield can eat your life total fast. Now you can safely hold onto that Mind Rot and wait for your opponent to reach two cards in hand, then make him get rid of them. Very annoying!

The Rack 5-8?
In addition to my land destruction shenanigans, I've also had a discard deck built around Megrm and Urza's Guilt. 10 life gone on turn 4. Since it ran 4 Guilt's, it wasn't uncommon to draw into a second one.
The rest of the deck was so you can imagine what was in there.

Of course, you'll note the presense of Megrim... It was a deck from a long time ago. Invasion Block mostly.

I haven't had a dedicated mill deck, but I had a broken Urza block deck that enjoyed great Mind Over Matter abuse.

Shinng moment: During a multiplayer game I was building a bunch of mana to end someone when another player cast Disenchant on my MOM. I took a moment to make him draw his entire library via Stroke of Genius, then continued with the other player.
There is a new card in RtR, Shrieking Affliction, which makes dedicated discard a viable win-con. Multiple instances of this on the battlefield can eat your life total fast. Now you can safely hold onto that Mind Rot and wait for your opponent to reach two cards in hand, then make him get rid of them. Very annoying!



Eh, not too threatening considering The Rack is a card that existed.


There is a new card in RtR, Shrieking Affliction, which makes dedicated discard a viable win-con. Multiple instances of this on the battlefield can eat your life total fast. Now you can safely hold onto that Mind Rot and wait for your opponent to reach two cards in hand, then make him get rid of them. Very annoying!



Eh, not too threatening considering The Rack is a card that existed.




Loss of life vs. damage
All opponents vs. 1 target.
Enchantment vs. Artifact

Speaking of annoying though... Turn 1 Black Vise. Turn 2 Howling Mine.

THAT'S annoying
There is a new card in RtR, Shrieking Affliction, which makes dedicated discard a viable win-con. Multiple instances of this on the battlefield can eat your life total fast. Now you can safely hold onto that Mind Rot and wait for your opponent to reach two cards in hand, then make him get rid of them. Very annoying!



Eh, not too threatening considering The Rack is a card that existed.



You'll have to forgive my ignorance, as I'm sure many of you have been playing Magic for quite some time. I have been playing since July, so I really only know cards from M13, RtR, and DotP 2013.

I just brought it up because it seemed relevant to the discussion.

You'll have to forgive my ignorance, as I'm sure many of you have been playing Magic for quite some time. I have been playing since July, so I really only know cards from M13, RtR, and DotP 2013.

I just brought it up because it seemed relevant to the discussion.



You're so gracious.. stay awhile, we need more posters like you.

Hakeem what platform are you playing dotp on? Nice to see new players with a good attitude. I'm on xbox
There is a new card in RtR, Shrieking Affliction, which makes dedicated discard a viable win-con. Multiple instances of this on the battlefield can eat your life total fast. Now you can safely hold onto that Mind Rot and wait for your opponent to reach two cards in hand, then make him get rid of them. Very annoying!



Is there really a standard deck based around that card? Honestly, I can't see it being much better than liliana's caress or megrim, since Shrieking Affliction suffers from some of the same problems as those cards.



I was just replying to all the comments about how discard is dead once your opponent's hand becomes empty. Keeping their hand empty to deal damage, and dealing damage based on discard are different animals entirely. If your opponent is in top-deck mode, he can just play cards against Liliana's Caress and Megrim and suffer no consequences for playing them. Against those cards, keeping your hand empty is optimal. Against Shrieking Affliction, keeping your hand empty hurts you.

I'm not saying it will see standard play, but it could be powerful in this limited environment.



Oh absolutely Shrieking Affliction is better than Liliana's Caress or Megrim. The problems I was referring to is that none of those cards do anything about board presence, they don't stop your opponent's creatures, and they don't do anything immediately or on their own (Although, Affliction can do something on its own later on, but you get my point). Your opponent can essentially say they gained card advantage when you drop an Affliction/Caress/Megrim. That's the biggest issue I have with those cards. I'd rather empty my opponents hand and drop a Grave Titan to create board pressence as a finisher, in case my opponent draws something that can give him board presence. 
Duels of the Planeswalkers 2013 deck builds and analysis: http://megamaster125.angelfire.com/dotp2013/ Another one of my websites: http://megamaster125.angelfire.com/rationalchristianity/ I am Blue/White
Hakeem what platform are you playing dotp on? Nice to see new players with a good attitude. I'm on xbox



I'm on Xbox as well, gamertag Hakeem928. Look me up and we'll play a few hands, for sure!

You'll have to forgive my ignorance, as I'm sure many of you have been playing Magic for quite some time. I have been playing since July, so I really only know cards from M13, RtR, and DotP 2013.

I just brought it up because it seemed relevant to the discussion.



You're so gracious.. stay awhile, we need more posters like you.




Thanks, much appreciated. I've been trolling these forums for ~1 month now, and I have to say, I did notice quite a few clashing personalities on here, and a lot of back-and-forth in various threads.

But really, you just have to resist the urge to respond to those people because they get off on that stuff; don't respond to their posts and they'll go away. I'm here to talk Magic with other players and that's all you'll ever see me do.
There is a new card in RtR, Shrieking Affliction, which makes dedicated discard a viable win-con. Multiple instances of this on the battlefield can eat your life total fast. Now you can safely hold onto that Mind Rot and wait for your opponent to reach two cards in hand, then make him get rid of them. Very annoying!



Eh, not too threatening considering The Rack is a card that existed.



You'll have to forgive my ignorance, as I'm sure many of you have been playing Magic for quite some time. I have been playing since July, so I really only know cards from M13, RtR, and DotP 2013.

I just brought it up because it seemed relevant to the discussion.



...My post wasn't intended to be insulting, I was just pointing out a similar card has existed in Magic for a long time.  Dedicated discard decks have been viable for a very long time.

I wasn't insulted... just wanted to say that I'm new to the game to provide the proper context for my own post.
There is a new card in RtR, Shrieking Affliction, which makes dedicated discard a viable win-con. Multiple instances of this on the battlefield can eat your life total fast. Now you can safely hold onto that Mind Rot and wait for your opponent to reach two cards in hand, then make him get rid of them. Very annoying!



Is there really a standard deck based around that card? Honestly, I can't see it being much better than liliana's caress or megrim, since Shrieking Affliction suffers from some of the same problems as those cards.



I was just replying to all the comments about how discard is dead once your opponent's hand becomes empty. Keeping their hand empty to deal damage, and dealing damage based on discard are different animals entirely. If your opponent is in top-deck mode, he can just play cards against Liliana's Caress and Megrim and suffer no consequences for playing them. Against those cards, keeping your hand empty is optimal. Against Shrieking Affliction, keeping your hand empty hurts you.

I'm not saying it will see standard play, but it could be powerful in this limited environment.



Oh absolutely Shrieking Affliction is better than Liliana's Caress or Megrim. The problems I was referring to is that none of those cards do anything about board presence, they don't stop your opponent's creatures, and they don't do anything immediately or on their own (Although, Affliction can do something on its own later on, but you get my point). Your opponent can essentially say they gained card advantage when you drop an Affliction/Caress/Megrim. That's the biggest issue I have with those cards. I'd rather empty my opponents hand and drop a Grave Titan to create board pressence as a finisher, in case my opponent draws something that can give him board presence. 


Just because Shrieking Affliction is your kill mechanic, doesn't mean discard is the only thing the deck is capable of.

Shrieking Affliction is a Black card.
Black can deal with board presence better than practically any other colour you know. ;)
Black can deal with board presence better than practically any other colour you know. ;)



Except white?
Black can deal with board presence better than practically any other colour you know. ;)



Except white?


Historically, the thing always dangled over 's head was Wrath of God.
Black has that too now.
They can both spot-remove like you wouldn't believe so which is actually better is open to debate.
"Open to debate with one other colour" may as well mean "better than practically every other colour".
Black can deal with board presence better than practically any other colour you know. ;)



Except white?


Historically, the thing always dangled over 's head was Wrath of God.
Black has that too now.
They can both spot-remove like you wouldn't believe so which is actually better is open to debate.
"Open to debate with one other colour" may as well mean "better than practically every other colour".



White can also remove artifacts/enchantments that hit the field. Black can't do anything about it.
Duels of the Planeswalkers 2013 deck builds and analysis: http://megamaster125.angelfire.com/dotp2013/ Another one of my websites: http://megamaster125.angelfire.com/rationalchristianity/ I am Blue/White
Black can deal with board presence better than practically any other colour you know. ;)



Except white?


Historically, the thing always dangled over 's head was Wrath of God.
Black has that too now.
They can both spot-remove like you wouldn't believe so which is actually better is open to debate.
"Open to debate with one other colour" may as well mean "better than practically every other colour".



White can also remove artifacts/enchantments that hit the field. Black can't do anything about it.



White has freakin' everything, it even has counter-magic...
Black can deal with board presence better than practically any other colour you know. ;)



Except white?


Historically, the thing always dangled over 's head was Wrath of God.
Black has that too now.
They can both spot-remove like you wouldn't believe so which is actually better is open to debate.
"Open to debate with one other colour" may as well mean "better than practically every other colour".



White can also remove artifacts/enchantments that hit the field. Black can't do anything about it.


The original point was about creatures.
My point was about the board in general though

If I had to choose only one color to play for the rest of my life, it would either be or ... i feel like they have the most variety in terms of what they can do
My point was about the board in general though

If I had to choose only one color to play for the rest of my life, it would either be or ... i feel like they have the most variety in terms of what they can do


Blue is the best colour in Magic. Always has been always will be...
Blue is the best colour in Magic. Always has been always will be...

Maybe if they ban Island...

Blue is the best colour in Magic. Always has been always will be...


In legacy and vintage, yes.

Damn the system and its hypocrites! You quit your quest and venture into the slums of the Gruul Clans!
Damn the system and its hypocrites! You quit your quest and venture into the slums of the Gruul Clans!
Take THE QUEST FOR RAVNICA today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

 


Blue is the best colour in Magic. Always has been always will be...


In legacy and vintage, yes.


I'm not sure if you thought that was my opinion or...

With pitifully few exceptions, Blue always gets the best cards each block.


This Article is 7 years old, but makes a fairly good illustration of what I mean.
They are all annoying strategies because they are using the horible element: Interaction which is the only obstacle to the ability to maximize enjoyment to the game.

Mafia Game Slots:

1. Open

2. Hundred Acres (Dead Town)

3. Open

4. Open

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My point was about the board in general though

If I had to choose only one color to play for the rest of my life, it would either be or ... i feel like they have the most variety in terms of what they can do


Blue is the best colour in Magic. Always has been always will be...



+1