10/23/2012 Feature: "Commander's Arsenal Initial Barrage"

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This thread is for discussion of the feature article "Commander's Arsenal Initial Barrage", which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.

This just got expensive, and I don't even care (in the good way).
OMG Loyal Retainers!!

I don't know if it is good or bad that it's foil.
If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited
Well, this set just leapt out of the reach of all but the most affluent collectors.

Like, even more than an FTV.

And that's saying something. 
I'm really sad to see there isn't more excitement over this already.

I play Legacy. Seeing them reprint stuff like Goyf and Retainers raises my faith in WoTC a tremendous amount.
It's nice to see the company finally opening their eyes in regards to how they can make money on eternal formats.
Let's see an Imperial Recruiter reprint, please.

With these experiments, hopefully the company will crunch the numbers and realize there is a lot more money to be gained in abolishing the reserved list than in keeping it.
Please have your lawyers re-examine the situation. Frankly, it's frustrating not being able to play the more enjoyable formats simply because WoTC doesn't want to make a ton of money selling reprints of stuff like power, workshop, bazaar, LED, tabernacle, and now even the Abyss is over $150 on the secondary market.
Wake up!
Opening accessibility to Legacy and Vintage means more players, more packs sold, more money. Far more than any loss of faith.

I can tell you that I would gladly see the secondary value of some of my very expensive cards go down (even though they will only go down slightly due to being original printings - see beta birds of paradise vs ravnica) if it means that there are more sanctioned tournaments and more players! A simple survey of the players of these formats will show similarly-minded people.

Thanks a lot for the retainers though. Please consider releasing some of this stuff a non-premium. When you get excited about something as released as "first time premium", consider that some people would rather have non-foil retainers without shelling out a ton of cash for the 3PK.

Looking forward to those Recruiters, please. Tongue Out
This was already a prohibitively expensive product. Adding Loyal Retaininers to what is rumored to to restricted to 2-4 units per retailer is ensuring a ridiculous price gouge on each copy sold.

I cannot understand who this is marketed towards. Somebody who wants reprints of long out of print cards will not make use of oversized cards, fancy sleeves or life counters. Someone who wants foils to replace existing cards is not likely to be using cards worth $100+ or paying exorbitant prices for something with an RRP of $75 and an expected price of $150+.
And as for Oversized card collectors... well I'm sure someone somewhere likes these things but probably not enough to pay $75+. 

Is something that will only be sold in minute numbers and bought by retailers and traders with the intention of individual re-sale really worth publicising?   
So I guess everyone at WOTC conveniently forgot Sliver Queen is on the Reserved List?

No, they didn't. It's an oversized card, and the reprint policy explicitly does not apply to oversized or non-tournament-legal cards:
[...]All policies described in this document apply only to tournament-legal Magic cards.

[...]

Wizards of the Coast may print special versions of cards not meant for regular game play, such as oversized cards.[...]


EDIT: Ah, I see you've realized that already.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I concur with what some of my fellow magicers implied:
what idiot thought 75 eurodollars would be a nice introductory price for EDH/Commander products? And more importantly, what idiots let it through to selling...

Not interested in the least at that price (would rather buy two-three full commander decks), especially if they're all premium, nor would any of my friends be.

Wotc, haven't you said that you wanted to encourage people to play edh/commander? When are you going to do that instead of the opposite?

It'll be ultra limited anyway, so 75€ is a minimum...

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

I wanted to buy Commander's Arsenal for the oversized cards, life counter and +/- counters (and for the cards, sure, but I didn't care which ones were there). I figured I'd be able to buy it for $100-120. Now, thanks to one expensive card it seems it's going to be $200 at least, so buying it is out of the question.

No, I couldn't preorder it at MSRP. I can only buy such product on eBay, and eBay sellers know their stuff. Still, I can order oversized cards and everything individually off eBay, so all's good.

 
I concur with what some of my fellow magicers implied:
what idiot thought 75 eurodollars would be a nice introductory price for EDH/Commander products? And more importantly, what idiots let it through to selling...



The idiot that understands economics. If the goal is to sell everything and not have any excess demand and you only want to have an extremely small supply, increasing the price is a logical step to ensure demand=supply.

That they probably would've made far more money if they increased supply and decreased the price (I'm pretty sure Magic's demand is fairly elastic, especially in the case of these special products) is another matter entirely.
76125763 wrote:
Zindaras' meta is like a fossil, ancient and its secrets yet to be uncovered. Only men of yore, long dead, knew of it.
Personally I fail to see what everyone is so excited about - these previews seem awful to me (barring the Queen, but shes oversized and people hate oversized cards, and unless the rules on tucking etc get changed you still need a normal sized copy anyway).

Keep revealing cards like these and I will have no problem with feeling bad about missing out on this because I wont be feeling bad...

~ Tim   
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
IMO Sliver Overlord makes a better sliver commander than Sliver Queen.  Not that the Queen isn't important but being able to find specific slivers in your deck is a bit better than just making some tokens each turn.  You can even use Sliver Overlord to search up Sliver Queen.
IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1205820039/Scorecards/Landscape.png)
people hate oversized cards

Except apparently people don't hate oversized cards. Personally, I do like them, but only as Commanders, and I don't consider them a must-have.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

I concur with what some of my fellow magicers implied:
what idiot thought 75 eurodollars would be a nice introductory price for EDH/Commander products? And more importantly, what idiots let it through to selling...



The idiot that understands economics. If the goal is to sell everything and not have any excess demand and you only want to have an extremely small supply, increasing the price is a logical step to ensure demand=supply.

That they probably would've made far more money if they increased supply and decreased the price (I'm pretty sure Magic's demand is fairly elastic, especially in the case of these special products) is another matter entirely.


Preventing 90% of your clients to access your product is idiocy, you may call this economics or anything else you like, it remains idiotic.

I wanted to buy Commander's Arsenal for the oversized cards, life counter and +/- counters (and for the cards, sure, but I didn't care which ones were there). I figured I'd be able to buy it for $100-120. Now, thanks to one expensive card it seems it's going to be $200 at least, so buying it is out of the question.

No, I couldn't preorder it at MSRP. I can only buy such product on eBay, and eBay sellers know their stuff. Still, I can order oversized cards and everything individually off eBay, so all's good.

 

You wanted to buy a bunch of useless cardboard (oversized cards) and a couple dices for 100$ ?!?

...

Never mind my previous comments then...

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

I can safely say that no matter what the remaining cards in this thing are, I will not be buying it.

Heres to hoping for some 2013 EDH pre-cons i guess....
Sliver Queen reprint? 1) Awesomesauce! And 2) RIP Reserved List, dies iræ, dies illa, solvet sæclum in favilla, teste David **** Sibylla, etc.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Sliver Queen reprint? 1) Awesomesauce! And 2) RIP Reserved List, dies iræ, dies illa, solvet sæclum in favilla, teste David **** Sibylla, etc.

It's not a reprint.  It's a promotional oversized card.  They can make giant eye-sore versions of Reserve List cards because they can't be used like regular cards.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

This product is so weird. Was anyone having trouble acquiring Grimgrin or Mayael? Does the oversized card market really have anything to do with the market that wants rare foils?

It seems like this product has no idea who it's for. I guess it's for the all-foil commander crowd, but those people don't strike me as oversized card people. I certainly know it's not for me, and I play a lot of commander. It's a huge step backward compared to what we got last year. That product brought people into the tent. This one will keep them away on price alone.
What's funny about oversized cards is, the article talks about "drawing attention to your general". Wouldn't you not want to draw attention to your general?

lol 
I was planning on getting this, but after looking at the prices on eBay, and looking back on how much FTV's run from online retailers...probably have to sit this one out.
This was already a prohibitively expensive product. Adding Loyal Retaininers to what is rumored to to restricted to 2-4 units per retailer is ensuring a ridiculous price gouge on each copy sold.



  I cannot understand who this is marketed towards. Somebody who wants reprints of long out of print cards will not make use of oversized cards, fancy sleeves or life counters. Someone who wants foils to replace existing cards is not likely to be using cards worth $100+ or paying exorbitant prices for something with an RRP of $75 and an expected price of $150+.

Some people might call that a contradiction.  Smile

"This food is terrible.  And the portions are too small!"

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

I have only seen one trader pre-selling this product on ebay in the UK so far, at £180 (over $250), about 250% MRP. Whilst this may not be definitive of the final price, it is certainly indicative and consistent with predictions of price gouging.

And by prediction, I mean that it was obvious in a kind of if-you-swing-a-bat-at-a-window-it-will-break kind of way. There comes a point where if the outcome is so likely, one can say that it was the intended outcome. And as intentions go, I think this one calls for an explanation.


Oh, and stop trying to make fetch oversized cards happen. It's not going to happen.
I’ve griped about this before, but I want to gripe about it again to make sure that someone at WotC is listening.

Look, an $80 product, for what this is, is pretty steep. No doubt about it, no other way to slice it. That being said, there are a LOT of people, myself included, willing to pay that price tag to get ahold of some pretty unique cards.

On the other hand, and the primary source of my complaint: is that you guys made way too few sets available to purchase. I buy from the best and busiest store in an area — a store that moves a TON of MtG product every single release, no matter what type of release — and all they got were 3 units to sell. THREE! He had about 50 people waiting in line with money to buy this. Meeting only 6% of demand is what has me and a lot of people very unhappy.

We all understand about making a run that just falls short for fulfilling demand, but this is ridiculous. It’s inexcusable. The product is currently selling upwards of $300 on eBay. That is not good for the game, and certainly not good for me as a customer. I would rather that you didn’t introduce the product at all if you were going to make it both aggregiously expensive and exclusive. Expensive I can deal with, but not both.

Not everyone has access to these cards. So by making the run so small you are ruining the perceived fun of the Commander format. If you really want to offer something cool for Commander players, then the availability should be going in exactly the OPPOSITE direction. These cards should be easy for these more casual-bound players to get their hands on, not more. Sure, up the price tag to make it profitable, but at least have the sense to make enough of them. 

On the other hand, and the primary source of my complaint: is that you guys made way too few sets available to purchase. I buy from the best and busiest store in an area — a store that moves a TON of MtG product every single release, no matter what type of release — and all they got were 3 units to sell. THREE! He had about 50 people waiting in line with money to buy this. Meeting only 6% of demand is what has me and a lot of people very unhappy.

  um, thats quite the trick considering it hasnt even been released yet.  Someone smells like troll.
It’s not a trick if you happen to be close friends with the guy who owns the store. Try picking up the phone and calling your local stores. ALL of them have measily low allocations. Do you think I’m the only one who’s aware of this? Check the Internet, the information is out there.
I’ve griped about this before, but I want to gripe about it again to make sure that someone at WotC is listening.

Look, an $80 product, for what this is, is pretty steep. No doubt about it, no other way to slice it. That being said, there are a LOT of people, myself included, willing to pay that price tag to get ahold of some pretty unique cards.

On the other hand, and the primary source of my complaint: is that you guys made way too few sets available to purchase. I buy from the best and busiest store in an area — a store that moves a TON of MtG product every single release, no matter what type of release — and all they got were 3 units to sell. THREE! He had about 50 people waiting in line with money to buy this. Meeting only 6% of demand is what has me and a lot of people very unhappy.

We all understand about making a run that just falls short for fulfilling demand, but this is ridiculous. It’s inexcusable. The product is currently selling upwards of $300 on eBay. That is not good for the game, and certainly not good for me as a customer. I would rather that you didn’t introduce the product at all if you were going to make it both aggregiously expensive and exclusive. Expensive I can deal with, but not both.

Not everyone has access to these cards. So by making the run so small you are ruining the perceived fun of the Commander format. If you really want to offer something cool for Commander players, then the availability should be going in exactly the OPPOSITE direction. These cards should be easy for these more casual-bound players to get their hands on, not more. Sure, up the price tag to make it profitable, but at least have the sense to make enough of them. 



I've already used up my moan credits on the other thread about this product. so I just want to say, well put sir.
Allocation: for anyone that doesnt know already.  a Core store will only get (2), yes thats two.  an Advanced Store will only get 5.


Frankly I agree it is too expensive.  I also dont understand how Hasbro will be making more Money by limiting it so dastardly.  Sure the secondary Market will make money.  Your local store makes maybe 30% profit on each box.  But Ebay sellers make the real profit... and local/online stores who wont even sell it for retail... price gouging will be prevelant just like the From the Vault sets.  Sad but true.  Hasbro just loves to treat every MTG release as if its the hottest Chirstmas toy of the year.... and limit quanities (like Return to Ravnica Booster boxes/Fat packs) for their retailers....   I guess thats what happens when a toy company buys out a great card /game company.
  
This has nothing to do with Hasbro; Hasbro tends to leave WotC alone for the most part.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

This has nothing to do with Hasbro; Hasbro tends to leave WotC alone for the most part.



With respect I disagree.  I live in Washington now.  I know some of the people who use to work at WotC and some that do now.  Ive also been playing MTG for a long time.  Its pretty easy to tell the the focus has changed to making an absolutely awesome game to making money.  Thats why Walmarts and Target get almost unlimited amounts of Fatpacks while all the stores that run Games and keep the game alive are always allocated a small amout of product... and generally now only get one order of such product.  If Walmart sells out of Fatpacks.  Their Vender replenishes them.  Your local Card/hobbie store can not.   

I'm pretty sure this will "fall on deaf ears" but I'm going to post it anyhow.

Wizards,
The naive inner child that I still cling deeply too, wants to believe that when you release a product like "Commander's Arsenal" you are doing so to re-print some sweet cards for those who might have missed them.  Maybe they were too young to be playing at the time of the initial release.  Maybe they were "on a break" because buying 2 booster boxes every set release finally slipped out of their budget when the sets kept coming.  In any case, those people undoubtly get excited when they see a product like this announced.
Unfortunately, the grown up that I am gets a little cynical these days when soon after the announcement, some of the spoils are released and suddenly the entire community is wondering "what does MSRP really mean"?  I don't think that you realize (there's that niave kid again) that there is a secondary market full of sharks that barely allow this product to ever even be considered for MSRP.  Not to point fingers, but there is a certain Magic gaming giant, located in the eastern part of the country, running a weekly open series, that is offering to buy these for $160 unopened.  ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!
So, your $74.99 offering, which I may have hoped to get on a resale website for double, is now being bought for the purposes of resale for just over double.  Meaning that there is no way that I could ever hope to pay less than $200 for the set.  Are these cards worth $200?  Is that who you are catering too, people that will spend that much on a product offered for 134% less?  People that devalue money that way?  If so then why didn't you just retail it for $150?
This same thing happened with FTV:Realms.  Living in a smaller market, I have about a 1 in 4 chance of getting something like this sort of release.  It kind of makes it impossible to believe that you didn't see this coming.
Thanks for nothing.
Chris
Chris, for what it is worth I agree with you.  Every year (with a slight exception of last year because From the Vault:  Legends was by far the worst out of the series) The same problem persists with the releast of a From the Vault Set.  MSRP of $34.99 BTW.  Even a lot of retailers price gouge to sell them for no less than $100.  There are a couple stores local that STILL have them for $100, but havent sold out.  Im cynical enough in MY older age to wonder why Wizards does this/allows this because they arent suppose to have any hand in 2nd hand sales profits.


I also do not do business with those stores.  I help out, as judge and other areas of Marketing to stores who sell these limited edition sets for retail, but for one per person basis.  The current store I work with went from a Core store to an Advanced store on the Return To Ravnica Pre-releast.  So theoredically they were suppose to get 5 of the Commander: Arsenal Boxes.  But because the order had to be placed BY the Sept 30th deadline.  They only got 2.  As they were merely a core store when they requested the item.  So the owner wishes he didnt have any of them... because he is angering more people who come in to purchase product than the is pleasing by having the (2).  It is hurting him more than helping him as a retailer.  Other Stores are raffeling off a chance to buy one.  I mean really.  Wizards/Hasbro decided they were doing well on the FTV sets and decided to top themselves on the C:A.  I think this extra limited edition set.. under these circumstances is horrible.
  
It's disappointing to say the least. I myself am a casual player, at most I do pre-releases, some drafting and sealed. I am in the process of getting my friends and I into EDH and just saw on WOTC's facebook the post they had about this release. Having missed out on all of the FTV stuff because of sellout to resellers and merchants themselves, I'm doubly dissappointed as we'll be missing out on this as well.


Unfortunately, the grown up that I am gets a little cynical these days when soon after the announcement, some of the spoils are released and suddenly the entire community is wondering "what does MSRP really mean"?



It means Suggested Retail Price. In other words it means that they can't force anyone to price anything a certain way. If stores were forced to sell for $75 then the Arsenals would just get swept up incredibly quickly anyway, still leaving you with nothing, and are you really less frustrated because of that?

I get the frustration even though I have no interest in this product myself. But the accusations of intentionally doing this are just weird to me.

Let's just take it as a given that Hasbro is a big giant company that wants to make oodles of money. It's true, they are and they do. So why would they intentionally run this product's printing at well below the actual demand? They don't make any extra money if a guy on eBay sells it for $300. They would have made extra money if they'd shipped out 4x as many of them.

It just makes no sense, and people's anger over this is really making them irrational.
Its the HASBRO mindset.  They love to cause a feeding frenzy.  I agree with you, on the surface it doesnt seem like they make more money with these sort of tactics.  What it does do... is make everyone afraid that the next thing they might release will be as scarce... causing everyone to run out and buy it... then realise it wasnt that great of a product to get in the first place.  Or get you into the stores in an attempt to get you to buy other  merchandise.  All Major retailers do this.  

They have an amazing sale on something.... and purposefully only have 1 oe 2 on hand.  So as soon as they sell out.. the first 10 minutes of the sale, they explain that they are sold out and dont give rainchecks.  Your in the store and they hope that you buy something else... and the majority of people do.  It works.  Its marketing 101.  Hasbro has had decades of experience with some of the hottest toys of the Christmas season.  G1 Transformers in the 80s being one of their huge hits.  They short change stores on product to cause this feeding frenzy.  So when they finally release qunaties... people buy all they can.  Just food for thought.  I WOULD NOT have paid $100 much less $225 for the set.  Its not nearly worth it.  Oh Its cool.  But I dont care for the larger cards... and there were only a few of the reg size cards I didnt have.  


It means Suggested Retail Price. In other words it means that they can't force anyone to price anything a certain way. If stores were forced to sell for $75 then the Arsenals would just get swept up incredibly quickly anyway, still leaving you with nothing, and are you really less frustrated because of that?


It just makes no sense, and people's anger over this is really making them irrational.


This is America, the capital of the capitalists.  No one can stop anyone from charging what they want for anything... if they can get the money for it.  However, Most repatable stores sold the box for the $74.99 but only sold one per person.  They wouldnt sell multiple copies to one person.  I believe that what our friend is saying was if he had the oportinuty to get one for retail, even if he had to pre-pay to get it, (as I did) he would have been much happier with having an equal chance of getting one, than being out priced for the item and having zero chance of getting it.  Hasbro doesnt seem to care one wit for the stores that run their tournaments, the stores that keep their products alive and popular.  They would rather cater to places like Walmart and Target.  All gaming stores are only allowed a limited allotment of any MTG product.  While Venders for the big chains are give almost unlimited suppies as long as the product is new (in standard) or at the very least until the next set comes out.  Gaming stores are only allowed to purchase fat packs ONCE per set, after that they cant order any more... supposeably because of a limited printing run.  But the big chains arent limited on the product.