## SAVING THROW QUESTION

10 posts / 0 new
Dasach_Tra
Joined Nov 2008
347 Posts
Something specific came up in our game last night, and I think I ruled fairly for the PC, but I wanted to explain the circumstance here and see if there is an actual rule for this, as we could not find anything on it.

PC has a Circlet of Arkhosia : When you are dazed or stunned, you can make a saving throw against one of those conditions at the start of your turn. If you save, you can act normally on your turn. If you fail, you can make another saving throw against the effect at the end of your turn.

They were fighting Chillreaver, and the PC with the above mentioned magic item got a multi-condition placed on him : Immobilized & Dazed (save ends both)

When the PC's turn came up, he asked for a save, and when I said it is a multi-condition, you can't end it via the Circlet of Arkhosia, he argued. We looked for a rule in the RC, but coudln't find one, so I ended up house-ruling that he can end the 'Dazed' portion of the condition, but he'd still be immobilized.

I thought it a fair ruling, but he is still upset about and thinks he was right.

Does someone know the rule on this?

If he was allowed to save against the Dazed Condition and this was a combined effect (save end both) saving would end both effects i guess.
Mand12
Joined Jun 2010
17444 Posts
Save ends both means save ends both.  And the condition dazes you, so you can save against it, and then save ends both.

Save ends both/all is one condition.  A condition-of-conditions, if you will, containing all the component conditions.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Dasach_Tra
Joined Nov 2008
347 Posts
Seems like you guys are taking a best guess. Can you highlight an actual rule or ruling by CS on this circumstance?
Mand12
Joined Jun 2010
17444 Posts
First off, CS is completely unreliable.  Don't trust them for answers on, well, anything.

Second,

When to Make Saving Throws
The game rules explain when to make a saving throw immediately to avoid a peril, such as avoiding being pushed into a pit. See “Falling" for an example.
If a creature is subject to an effect that a save can end, the creature makes a saving throw against that effect at the end of each of its turns. An effect that a save can end includes one of the following notations: “save ends,” “save ends both,” or “save ends all.”
When two effects are followed by the notation “save ends both,” they are treated as a single effect when making saving throws against them. For instance, if a creature is “weakened and slowed (save ends both),” the creature makes a single saving throw against those two conditions whenever the time comes for it to make saving throws. Similarly, effects that are followed by the notation “save ends all” are treated as a single effect when saving throws are made against them. However, if a creature is subject to separate “weakened (save ends)” and “slowed (save ends)” effects, it must save against each separately. When a creature makes saving throws against multiple effects that a save can end, its player chooses the order of the saving throws.
Sometimes a power or other game feature allows a character to make a saving throw immediately against an effect that a save can end. If the character is allowed to make a single saving throw but is subject to multiple effects that a save can end, the player chooses which of those effects to make the saving throw against.

Rules Compendium, page(s) 227.

Bolded the important bit.  Dazed and immobilized (save ends both) is a single effect.  The effect dazes you, so the hat works.  When you save, the effect is removed.  All of it.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
mvincent
Joined Jun 2004
8513 Posts
Circlet of Arkhosia is poorly written (so the DM's on-the-spot adjudication certainly seemed fair enough). Previously discussed here and here, if desired.
Mand12
Joined Jun 2010
17444 Posts
Er...this has a clear resolution, as of RC.  Not sure what you mean about it being poorly written.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
mvincent
Joined Jun 2004
8513 Posts
Not sure what you mean about it being poorly written.

- "If you save, you can act normally on your turn" doesn't make it clear that the effect ends
- "make a saving throw" doesn't mention "even if the effect doesn’t normally end on a save" as Superior Will does (indeed "you can make another saving throw against the effect at the end of your turn" implies the writer was only considering save ends effects, but as written the reader has to decide for themselves whether it applies to non-save conditions).
- The circlet talks addresses "conditions" rather than "effects"
etc.

Note: I was not saying your answer was incorrect, I was just noting how the item was poorly written.

Still, we might now want do discuss the whole "conditions" vs. "effects" wording.

mattatew
Joined Oct 2012
1 Post
So I looked into it a little as well, tell me what you folks think.  Further down the page of saving throws in RC, it says "Identical effects never require multiple saving throws. A creature DOES make seperate saving throws against effects that aren't identical, even if they contain the same condition. For instance, "dazed(save ends)" and "dazed and immobilized(save ends both)" are not identical effects, so seperate saving throws are made against each of them.

My PC swordmage/psion hybrid can make saves against dazed at the start of his turn, but because they are not "identical" I didn't allow it.  If I'm wrong let me know, otherwise hope that helps folks.
Alcestis
Joined Oct 2009
8509 Posts
So I looked into it a little as well, tell me what you folks think.  Further down the page of saving throws in RC, it says "Identical effects never require multiple saving throws. A creature DOES make seperate saving throws against effects that aren't identical, even if they contain the same condition. For instance, "dazed(save ends)" and "dazed and immobilized(save ends both)" are not identical effects, so seperate saving throws are made against each of them.

My PC swordmage/psion hybrid can make saves against dazed at the start of his turn, but because they are not "identical" I didn't allow it.  If I'm wrong let me know, otherwise hope that helps folks.

That just means that if you are "Dazed (Save Ends)" and "Dazed (Save ends)" you don't have to save twice. You still save at the start of your turn vs any condition that has Dazed in it.