Crossbows and Sneak Attacks

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This is probably veeeery old news to everyone, but I would like to know if there was any reaction to this or any consensus in the community.

A friend of mine was creating a Rogue today in the Character Builder. And I just happen to notice that the Rogue can no longer Sneak Attack with any crossbow, just a "hand crossbow". This was apparently added in some errata - probably that big, "Class Compendium" one.

So, how did this went with the community? Was this just an unentended mistake by Wizards when revising the wording or did they really intend to eliminate any possibility of Sneak Attacking with all the other crossbows? Are there any feats that can allow a rogue to sneak attack with a Crossbow, a Repeating Crossbow or a Superior Crossbow?

I'm glad for any help you can offer! Thank you all!
Are you threatening me master jedi? Dungeons & Dragons 4e Classic - The Dark Edition
It was an update/errata, yes.  It was some time ago, and as it's never been un-errata'd, it's apparently intentional.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Good lords... Did people even debate the issue? Seem like an unintended errata do the Classic Rogue. Perhaps such a definition of Sneak Attack applies easily for the Essential Rogue, but the new wording makes very little sense for the "Rogue (Scoundrel)" :P.
Are you threatening me master jedi? Dungeons & Dragons 4e Classic - The Dark Edition
Considering they rewrote every single Rogue power that requires "crossbow, light blade, or sling" or similar in addition to the Sneak Attack entry to specify Hand Crossbow, I'm not sure you can make the case of it being unintended.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Did they? As my player was making his rogue, there were plenty of powers that required "crossbow, light blade or sling" to choose from. In fact, all of his choices were made from such powers.

In fact, rereading the Class Compendium article in Dragon 400, all of the "crossbow, light blade or sling" powers are still there. For gods sake, Classic Rogues do not even begin with proficiency with a shortbow :P. And all the powers I have read retained the "crossbow, light blade or sling" requirement :P.

Moreover, in page 96 of the Compiled Errata, the errata on sneak attack states:

"The feature now lets you deal extra damage one per turn instead of once per round", as if their intention was just that. Then, they give us the revised text - which uses the wording of Sneak Attack that appeared in Heroes of the Fallen Lands, and makes much more sense for the Rogue (Thief), that begins with proficiency with shortbows.

Overall, it seems they created the "Essential Rogue", rewrote Sneak Attack for that new rogue, and when making the "Class Compendium" series of "retro-errata", attached the new wording of Sneak Attack for the "Classic Rogue", which does not fit very well.

Its such a blatant issue that I'm surprised I missed any debate on it (if there was ever a debate about this). Of course, the change could been very well intentional. But it does not seem so, specially in light of that information Mand12: they didn't rewrote every single power that requires "crossbow, light blade or sling", at least, not accordingly to the Character Builder :P. If what you said was true, then, yes, things would be more questionable. But the fact you presented is false, and the above facts remain.

Evidently, since I'm no insider to the designers thoughts, I could be wrong. The idea that the change as unintended is an hypothesis with several underling arguments for it, but an hypothesis nonetheless...

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By the way, do any of you two know if the community debated this change in the past? As I said, I seem awfuly late for this discussion! :P
Are you threatening me master jedi? Dungeons & Dragons 4e Classic - The Dark Edition
...

wut


Why the hell did I think they did that?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Hahahaha, it happens Mand12, it happens! ^^

Well, the update would at least make more sense if your previous thought was proven to be correct!

As it stands, however, it is a little "out of sync" with the Classic Rogue. That may note have been intentional.
Are you threatening me master jedi? Dungeons & Dragons 4e Classic - The Dark Edition
While Rogue Powers may still be used with any Crossbows, he will only be able to Sneak Attack if using a Hand Crossbow. No need to errrata 234 Rogue Attack Powers with such fix i guess :P
Seriously though, this disturbs me.

I really, really remember this happening.  Absolutely certain, to the point where I made the post without checking because I knew it was the case.

wtf 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Discussed here. The change appears intentional. I believe the character builder was also updated to reflect it.
Treetop sniper:

Benefit: You can use any bow with Sneak Attack or any rogue power that normally requires a crossbow.

If was your DM I would certainly allow you to use that feat to use a superior xbow with rogue powers and houserule the ability to sneak attack on it to.

It's not unreasonable, as the ranged rogue is a long step from overpowered. 
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
I expected more debate...

Crossbows in general lose much interest by such a change. What other class would find it beneficial to use a crossbow (repeating, superior, etc) other than the rogue? The assassin perhaps?

Well, at any rate, a sad state of affairs :P.
Are you threatening me master jedi? Dungeons & Dragons 4e Classic - The Dark Edition
Crossbows in general lose much interest by such a change. What other class would find it beneficial to use a crossbow (repeating, superior, etc) other than the rogue? The assassin perhaps?



Artificer.  Crossbow Caster feat lets you use it as an implement for your Artificer stuff.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Oh Fardiz, your response was not up when I wrote my post above .

That is not a problem, after all, I am the GM . In fact, I always end up being the GM, actually playing the game is a rare blessing for me :P. And for the purpose of this "one shot" I'm gming to a friend, I'm using the "pre-errata" text in that regard. As I said, seem silly not to allow rogues to use heavier crossbows, specially since rangers can easily wield a d12 bow with much less hassle :P.

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Mand12, similar things happened to me as well :P. It happens... Disturbing indeed... Damned Cthulhu, stop altering our perception of reality!

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And you're right Salla. Artificers still get to use heavier crossbows .

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Perhaps it would interest you guys - I've sent word to Customer Service. Don't know if they'll be able to answer my question adequately but... who knows?

Are you threatening me master jedi? Dungeons & Dragons 4e Classic - The Dark Edition
I think the best class for superior crossbows is the Ranger (Hunter), since they get the ability to reload a crossbow as a free action as a class feature. 
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
Perhaps it would interest you guys - I've sent word to Customer Service. Don't know if they'll be able to answer my question adequately but... who knows?

What did you ask exactly ?

There's a huge chance you'll get their generic answer that they'll pass your feedback if it was based on their intent 
Here is the text I used in the e-mail:

"I've recently come across an errata I realized I missed.

A player of mine was creating a rogue characters, and we realized rogues can no longer Sneak Attack with crossbows, repeating crossbows and superior crossbows.

Apparently, when the designers created the Essential Rogue, they revised the wording of Sneak Attack. Then, later, when applying the "Class Compendium" changes to the Classic Rogue, the new wording was used instead of the old one.

In the updated errata document, when explaining the new rule for Sneak Attack, they focus on the change of "once per round" to "once per turn", and not on the change of valid weapons for Sneak Attacking. The revised text of "Heroes of the Fallend Lands" follows the justification.

Since Classic Rogues do not even begin with proficiency with Shortbows, the revised wording seems a little out of sync with the Classic Rogue.

My question is: was this change intentional? Did the designers intend to limit Classic Rogue and no longer allow crossbows, superior crossbows and repeating crossbows to be used for Sneak Attack?

I realize this particular errata is an old one, but if possible, I would like to know if the above effect was the intended one for the update.

Thank you for your attention!"
Are you threatening me master jedi? Dungeons & Dragons 4e Classic - The Dark Edition
Cust Serv probably isn't going to be able to answer that, unfortunately.
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
And even if they do, you'd probably get a different answer if you asked the identical question again a second time.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Both real possibilities. But as I said... who knows? Perhaps they will be able to help :P.
Are you threatening me master jedi? Dungeons & Dragons 4e Classic - The Dark Edition
Unfortunately, they couldn't help .

Sad.

Well, guess this will be a first "had rule revision" I add to my House Rules document for 4th edition :P. What a sad thing to do to a dying game X_______X...
Are you threatening me master jedi? Dungeons & Dragons 4e Classic - The Dark Edition
I faced the same issue in my game.  I allowed the player to take the Treetop Snipe feat and use it to allow him to apply sneak attack damage when he used a superior crossbow.
I don't know if Wizards is still accepting "mechanics" material for the magazines, but they are, this should be a good idea for a new official feat :P.
Are you threatening me master jedi? Dungeons & Dragons 4e Classic - The Dark Edition
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