The current tier list

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S tier:

1. GG
2. SS

high tier:

3. PK
4. OD
5. BoF

mid tier:

6. AS
7. AW
8. CW

low tier:

9. CM
10. DP
11. ED
12. CL
13. PI
14. GM

-.- tier:

15. MS

This is my opinion after spending tons of hours on this game. Feel free to agree or disagree or discuss or just let this topic die. I have created it anyway.

I would drop AW and raise GM but other than that I agree
Close...I would lump MS in with the low-tier, since good builds of it can post decent records (at least enough to hang with the other lows you listed).

Top 5 is dead-on, but I would put OD in the top two, and drop GG to #3.  The three mid-tier decks you have seem accurate too.  Pretty solid overall!
I think mid tier list should be bigger and low tier smaller. PI, DP, GM (maybe) -> mid tier, MS as someone mentioned could be just low tier.
CW mid tier? Top tier, easy.
No way Grinning Malice is low tier or mid tier. High tier at least, if not top tier. And Mindstorms isn't that bad at all, I'd place it as the best of the low tier decks with only Dream Puppets and Exalted Darkness below it.

Otherwise the list isn't too bad, I'd re-shiggle some things such as Celestial Light (hugely underrated deck) but pretty good.
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I think its spot on. Remember that a strong early game trumps mid/late game decks, as they are dead before they get there. Otherwise od would be played way more. I personally think ed is better than it gets credit for, but thats because I spent ALOT of time perfecting my build.. Aw is an amazing deck in its own right and deserves its spot. All in all I completely agree with your rankings.
S tier:

1. OD
1a. SS

high tier:

3. GG
3a. PK
3b. BoF (works well against most decks, but the lack of card advatage keeps it in check)

mid tier:

6. CW (operates well against most decks, except GG and PK which destroy it , and maybe a fast CM build)
7. GM
7a. AS
9. AW (probably benefited the most from the release of the expansion)
10. CL (as someone else mentioned, a deck underrated by many)

low tier:

11. ED
11a. CM
13. MS
13a. PI (probably hurt the most by the release of the expansion)
15. DP

-.- tier:

100. Any of the decks with an 80+ card build (not so much for the deck size itself, but there are plenty of bad cards that should be cut in all decks)




Sorry to hijack LiangHuBBB's chart layout, but it is a darn good starting list.

First and foremost, this list applies to 1 v 1 only.  The S tier and High tier are pretty self explanatory at this point.  CW isn't quite High tier, but is definitely the king of the Mid tier.  GM and AS are either less adaptable or more prone to getting a bad draw than the decks above them; if they get a good hand then they are very good, but if they get a bad hand then they are very bad.  AW is super adapatable, but still slow to get going and CL is actually pretty competitive, with more removal that you think.

I'm not positive about the Low tier because I don't play ED, CM, DP or PI very much (I used to play PI, but I feel like the expansion killed it Cry).  Overall, I do feel like the Low tier isn't that far behind the rest.  ED has plenty of removal and a lot of good enchanments, but not a lot of card advantage or game enders.  CM's only real problem is it's lack of removal.  PI just can't keep up with SS's removal, GM's discard/flyers or AS's enchanments/flyers.  MS can be fairly competitive in 1 v 1 with the right build, and the first rule about DP is that we don't talk about DP.

Thoughts?  Comments?  Cookie?
I want to disagree and agree at the same time. I personally don't really believe an "S" tier exists, but I think I could acknowledge that both Sepulchral Strength and Goblin Gangland are two of the best decks in the format. Sepulchral Strength kind of has answers for everything while GG has the speed to pump out wins unless the other deck has the means to respect it, which not every deck can do consistently. Still, I'd feel fairly confident picking other decks like Obedient Dead, Peacekeepers, and Crosswinds to play against the majority of the field just like I would feel confident piloting SS/GG against most of the field.

I think it's a terrible joke to treat Mindstorms as a horrible deck by itself, as I actually regard it highly myself. I'd probably push for a mid-tier status, but settle for high low-tier as well. It can't beat every situation and don't expect that, but its quite potent in it's own right. Knowing what hands are suited for victory and aggressively seeking them (mulligans for the win) let me beast around with the deck all the time.

I'd also probably say most of the midrange, beatdown decks (PI, CM, and GM) deserve around mid-tier status. They aren't has fast as say GG, but they can apply consistent pressure that slower, control decks can't handle every time. But because they are slower on average, it gives those decks more time to find their answers. I think Grinning Malice compensates for this with its disruption tactics through discard, and Demigods are a perfect curve-topping beating. Collective Might replaced Pack Instinct for me (non-ramp), as it kind of does the midrange role slightly better. Token production lets it bounce back from removal a little easier and provides options without overextending the resources in your hand.

I think low-tier sounds almost demeaning to the decks in this category, when it really isn't. Still good decks for their own reasons, but I say each one somewhat suffers from some kind of quality issue. Exalted Darkness has a large and high quality spot removal suite, but I find its creatures don't really let it excel as a control deck and the "aggro" exalted deck is kind of a pushover. So it sits in a somewhat midrange limbo, but isn't really as threatening compared to what other decks can accomplish. Similar feelings on Celestial Light, where I think it's the creature quality that brings this deck down. Without strong creatures with innate protection or generating better advantages that just lifegain, it's an easily contained deck that has trouble bouncing back when it gets cornered. So unless you get off to a good start that your opponent doesn't respond to, I just feel like I'm durdling about with this deck. Then there is Dream Puppets, which is capable of winning gloriously, is probably also the deck with the most inconsistency no matter how you try and run it. It's good the mill angle is somewhat limited to avoid potential issues on the environment, but it's control angle is also somewhat lacking a few good spells to actually make it outstanding in my opinion.

[spoiler=IMO]Tier 1
Sepulchral Strength
Goblin Gangland
Obedient Dead
Peacekeepers
Crosswinds (maybe shift to top of 1.5)

Tier 1.5
Born of Flame
Grinning Malice
Ancient Wilds
Aura Servants
Collective Might
Pack Instinct (maybe shift to 2)

Tier 2
Mindstorms
Celestial Light
Exalted Darkness
Dream Puppets[/c]
My list:

1. SS
2. GG

3. BOF (always kinda considered this equal with GG tbh, such a direct and focused deck if built right)
4. PK
5. GM <----- why is this so underrated?

6. OD
7. CW
8. CM

9. AS
10. AW
11. ED

12. PI
13. CL
14. MS

15. DP

Wow talk about a lazy OP. The least you could have done was type the names out.
Insults fly in 3.2.1... Oh, wait, too late!
Insults fly in 3.2.1... Oh, wait, too late!
DISCLAIMER:  This is all regarding 1v1 play.  Also, none of these decks are so bad that they can't rack up wins.  They might be underdogs, but play skill, draw luck, and build variation all factor in.  That said... 

SS and OD just have so many threats, and have good answers for pretty much the entire format.  Both are versatile, capable of getting the cards they need, and control the board well.  However good the other decks are, I don't think they are better than these two.

SS does it a little bit better overall, I think.  Your threats own the board, or are hard to remove, and you have answers for everything.  

OD is very consistent with draw, fetches, and tutors, and it compensates for its inability to remove artifacts or enchantments by bringing slurp spells and reanimation into the mix.

I'd put GG after these, but still extremely high.  It's pure, fast damage, and if it gets going well early on, you have to have a really good answer quickly, or you just lose.  Thing is, several of the newer decks can hang with it; it doesn't really stomp on them like it does on some of the other decks.  It's also so prevalent in the format that most people style their decks accordingly, which doesn't help its cause.  Still, it's highly focused, and very good at what it does.

In my experience, BoF comes next.  It has board sweepers, creatures than can keep coming back, and so much good burn.  It is also one of the best decks to play against the other top and high tiers.  Some decks do have silver bullets against it, but even in the face of those, it's often possible to overcome and take the win.

PK would follow just after BoF for me.  It's focused similarly to GG, but it trades a little bit of raw speed for a bit of threat removal.  Because it doesn't have burn backing it up, though, it can sometimes be hard to deliver the few final points of damage required for a win if the opponent can stabilize.  Fortunately, due to your sheer volume of threats, it's not very often they do before you win.

Last up on the high tier is CW.  Though it can get disrupted early if you're not careful (or lucky), once this gets going, it's very hard to take the game back from.  Panoptic Mirror is the icing on the cake, but with the sheer amount of card draw, blue-style permission control, and all those drakes in the air, CW definitely separates itself from the lower decks in the field.

The middle of the pack seems a lot muddier to me.  AW is slow to build, but has some great toolbox capabilities, and the backdoor land destruction option is solid when the board stalls.  If your opponent has the ability to remove your Erratic Portals or Primadoxes before you can milk them, it really slows you down.  Once you can get some Slimes or Thragtusks working for you though, you usually buy yourself some time to stabilize.

GM is so random; if you get the right mix of cards up into a Demigod or two, you're really hard to stop.  If you don't get those, you get rolled, simple as that.   Great spot removal, Blightning is great, and the other discard options, though not cheap (why weren't Ravenous Rats in this deck instead of SS?), can all keep the pressure on until you can dump out your Demigods.

AS is another deck that lives or dies by just a few cards.  Indestructability and Pariah combo to just ruin some decks, and a large, lifelinking, untargettable, unblockable creature is gross.  The best decks have ways to stop this, though, and it can be hard to recover if it does.

CL has all of the tools to be really good, and it definitely can be.  Thing is, it goes into top-deck mode way too often against the better decks.  If you can land some early Baneslayers or the Well, or bait your opponent into a DoJ, things are great.  If they play around those, your threats aren't really that hard to stop.  White Sun's Zenith and Marshal's Anthem help keep you in the late game as well, but even with those, it doesn't seem to get enough to threaten the opponent as consistently as the better decks.

Down to the lower tier, though again, all of them have their merits.

PI gets beefy fast, but relies on having creatures out to spot remove with Prey Upon, and has surprisingly little trample for a mono-green beast deck.  Primordial Hydra is a monster after a few turns, though, and if you are lacking in removal, you'll have a hard time against this deck.

ED relies on putting plenty of small creatures on the board to win.  It has some really good drops at four and five as well, which help with your late game.  The biggest thing that kills this deck is that you have very few ways to get card advantage over your opponent.  By design, you're weak to sweepers, so you have to really ride that fine line between full aggro and patience.  There are also no good ways to draw cards with this.  You have a lone Demonic Tutor, which is good, but is still one-for-one.  Your Deathbringer Lieges can end up offing multiple creatures if they survive long enough, but against the SS and BoF decks of the world, you'll have your hands full trying to your match records positive against the better decks.

MS gets dogged on quite a bit, but the draw-burn option is good when it gets going.  Thing is, you have no good burn until turn 3, which also happens to be when you'll be trying to drop your first creatures (that aren't Razorfin Hunters).  It seems to trip over itself often at this point, so to speak.  It does have good options to slow down weenie decks if they don't get optimal draws, and if you can stabilize with the draws off of your burn and Compulsive Researches, you can win.

CM has even less removal, and doesn't typically rush down as fast or hard as the better aggro decks.  With an optimal draw, you win on turn five (four if you're extremely lucky), but again, lack of card draw really hurts you.  Where you do pull ahead is with the ability to constantly dump your mana out into small creatures.  Overrun, Intangible Virtue, and Beastmaster Ascension can allow them to get unstoppably large, but getting to that point against the better decks is difficult.  You end up blocking away most if not all of your army to the superior aggro, and all of the top and mid decks listed here have serious threat cards for this.

DP has some really good cards for its theme, but it all depends on if you get it when you need it.  Early Hedron Crabs and Muses really set the pace, and Clone can double as either, or as any threat your opponent drops.  Archive Trap is much better now with all of the fetches as well.  If you can maintain these for a few turns, protect them, and draw your other mill spells and counters when you need, you're going to win.  So many games end with the opponent a turn away from losing, though, and they are just able to pull ahead in that last stretch.   
here's my tier list.

Tier 1: Any of the decks played by a good player with a good draw

Tier 2: Any of the decks played by a bad player with a good draw

Tier 3: Any of the decks played by a good player with a bad draw

Tier 4: Any of the decks played by a bad player with a bad draw

Tier 5: AI

Tier 6: Yu-Gi-Oh!

:D

But I play 2HG mostly and my XBOX:Live Gold just ran out with no money left to renew, so what do I know.
Of all things, Death is least permanent.
Man, y'all are nuts, Ancient Wilds and Crosswinds are easily at the top of any 1v1 tier list in terms of sheer versatility and deck matchups.
Crosswinds is my most played deck and I have tried many builds, both the popular ones and unpopular. I would disagree with it being top tier. There's no way you go into any duel thinking "I've definitely won unless my opponent gets really lucky or it's a counterdeck" the same way you do when playing Goblins or OD (haven't played SS so can't comment). On the flipside you don't feel underpowered against anything other than goblins either, so I would say it's either top-mid tier or high tier.

Basically if you survive with decent card/field advantage past turn 5 chances are you will win with Crosswinds, before that it's in danger. I love Talrand's Invocation though, I used to use none and I slowly realised how amazing it was and eventually moved up to all 4 copies. Always fun to see a Grinning Malice player waste two great removal spells on two 2/2 tokens.
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It's all opinions, but there aren't many games where i use CW and think "this will be tough". Granted, a lot of it comes down to player skill but overall it stomps out most decks. The slower decks don't have the control options to counter CW when it get's going. The timewarp and archeomancer shenanigans are just too cool. I've stopped running panoptic mirror (i felt cheap going infinite) and i rarely have a hard time against decks

The two decks where CW trips up, is a control build of AW and GG. Against SS it's in favour of CW. By the time SS get's going (turn 3 ish) i have cancels and repulses ready and waiting. Come turn 4 a fog bank backed up by a mana leak puts my opponent in a position where they are forced to play

IMO, the card draw of CW means it can respond to every and all threats better than other decks. Once your opponent runs low on cards, the game is yours.     
Crosswinds is my most played deck and I have tried many builds, both the popular ones and unpopular. I would disagree with it being top tier. There's no way you go into any duel thinking "I've definitely won unless my opponent gets really lucky or it's a counterdeck" the same way you do when playing Goblins or OD



Well, I don't think that when I go into any match, really.  Even a perfect Goblin hand can be shut down by single cards (Infest, Rain of Embers, Worship, No Mercy).

The way CW games go with me is that unless I get a terrible draw (which is unlikely with Sleight of Hand being in the deck) I can usually control the tempo of the game at every stage.  No creatures hitting the board?  Just hold back and Mana Leak as needed.  Creatures hitting the board?  Fog Bank, or just wait until you can drop a Fog Bank and still Mana Leak a removal spell.  Make me discard?  Sure, I'll discard Time Warp and play Archaeomancer.

AW usually gives me just about as many control options, but with the added bonus of ramp and some early aggro options (Natural Order).

The bigger point, too, is that I'd say those two have the best matchups.  AW has Beast Within, which means it can deal with literally any threat at Instant speed, and CW's bad matchup is Goblins, which can be locked down by Replicating/Followed Footstepping your Fog Banks - you'll take some damage, but you should be able to stabilize the situation before you get lethal, barring a Piledriver you can't make a blocker for.

Collective Might is low tier? Awesome.  That just makes winning with my favorite deck that much more satisfying.  :-)

 Mindstorms and Exalted Darkness are really the only ones I don't like playing, though exalted darkness is almost as irritating to play against as to play.
here's my tier list.


Tier 6: Yu-Gi-Oh!

:D




I've got to agree with this.
so, just as someone else asked but failed to get a reply, what's caused the sudden turn-around with Grinning Malice? When I was checking the boards not long ago, everybody was saying it was top-tier, even better than SS. Now it's mid-low tier?? what gives?

by the same respect, I see a lot of people talking up crosswinds all of a sudden -- it wasn't top-tier before the expansion (although it was very close), why has anything changed? I don't see it having an obvious advantage over any of the expansion decks. None of them... how does that push it from low-top/high-mid to tippy top?

Also, Mindstorms isn't as bad as a lot of people are making it out to be. Although it's not top-tier for obvious reasons, it has a decent chance against anything that's not turbo-aggro (i.e. peacekeepers & goblins). I would put it mid tier -- that some people struggle to build or play with it, isn't a fault of the deck.
I actually found decks like Goblins or Peacekeepers are some of Mindstorms best matchups to be honest.
I actually found decks like Goblins or Peacekeepers are some of Mindstorms best matchups to be honest.



even when you're dead the turn after you can play your first card?
Only happens a small amount of the time actually.
I assume that the OP haven't played GM that much since he ranked it on low tier.. I think GM is Mid to High tier... Any deck with spot creature removal, and scary threats would at least rank somewhere in the top half of the deck.. GM is kindoff a mid range,  more aggressive but slightly inferior version of OD(due to the lack of draw and sweepers). It can also delay most dual colored decks since it has land destruction.  Its discards are good way to even or lessen opponnent's card count when you are playing aggressively to the point of overextending.. 
I wouldn't rank Mindstorms that low, it still sits somewhere bottom tier but probably somwhere between bottom and mid because it is capable of winning against any deck since it is capable of dealing huge damage in one turn..
Overall, I think the tierlist have not changed much after the dlc.. Top tier prior to dlc are still pretty solid, decks that are considered on lower part remain the same and some became slightly worse...
so, just as someone else asked but failed to get a reply, what's caused the sudden turn-around with Grinning Malice? When I was checking the boards not long ago, everybody was saying it was top-tier, even better than SS. Now it's mid-low tier?? what gives?

Nah, definitely not better than SS. As I said after the first couple of games GM is very reliant on the Demigods. It hasn't too much mana fix and two-coloured aggro-decks struggle most to get a winning hand.

by the same respect, I see a lot of people talking up crosswinds all of a sudden -- it wasn't top-tier before the expansion (although it was very close), why has anything changed? I don't see it having an obvious advantage over any of the expansion decks. None of them... how does that push it from low-top/high-mid to tippy top?

CW was definitely a top deck. Speaking of rock, scissors, stone it still had unfavourable match-ups with PK, GG and AW (maybe even a good DP build?). PK and GG saw a lot of play which made CW suffer a bit. With the new decks CW got very good match-ups against AS and SS. The new aggro decks GM and CM aren't as fast as the older ones and CW has a good chance to stabilize here.

Also, Mindstorms isn't as bad as a lot of people are making it out to be. Although it's not top-tier for obvious reasons, it has a decent chance against anything that's not turbo-aggro (i.e. peacekeepers & goblins). I would put it mid tier -- that some people struggle to build or play with it, isn't a fault of the deck.

MS >>> PK. C'mon that one is really obvious.


My tier list from my game statistics would look like:
tier 1: SS, GG
tier 1.5: BF, OD, CW, PK, AS
tier 2: AW, GM, CM, MS, CL, PI, ED
tier 2.5: DP
Meaning playing hundred games against random opponents with each deck I win most with SS or GG. Still differences between tiers are really, really close (which is great!!!), so it's hard to make out tiers at all...
I like a match up analysis more instead and imo even the top tier decks have a lot of bad match ups.




Tier 1
Sepulchral Strength
Goblin Gangland
Obedient Dead
Peacekeepers
Crosswinds (maybe shift to top of 1.5)

Tier 1.5
Born of Flame
Grinning Malice
Ancient Wilds
Aura Servants
Collective Might
Pack Instinct (maybe shift to 2)

Tier 2
Mindstorms
Celestial Light
Exalted Darkness
Dream Puppets



Basically I agree with this list. My list is very similar.

My only doubt is only how to rate ED, CM and MS.
 
ED - I want to put it higher, but I can't think a real good reason to do so.
CM - I want to rate it higher, but the lack of removal and low flexibility stops me doing it.
MS - I want to rate it lower, but this deck can pull some surprise wins.

Tier 1

Sepulchral Strength
Goblin Gangland
Obedient Dead
Peacekeepers
Aura Servants

Tier 1.5

Born of Flame
Grinning Malice
Pack Instinct
Ancient Wilds
Crosswinds

Tier 2

Exalted Darkness
Collective Might
Celestial Light
Mindstorms

Tier 2.5

Dream Puppets

I think BoF is better than you're giving it credit.  Vs. the expansion decks, Azorius is a bad matchup; the rest aren't.  It is relatively easy to kill CM's token generators; you can kill virtually any GM creature with ease (at least before 6cc and many GM builds don't run 6cc creatures); SS's removal is near-worthless, and you have considerably better burn than MS (though MS's draw abilities still make it a tough match).

BoF has better card advantage than you acknowledge as well.  It has better overall mass removal than any other deck: Rain of Embers, Earthquake, 2 Flamebreak, Chain Reaction, Chandra's Fury or Cone of Flame, 2Magma Pheonix as well as the 2 Flames of the Firebrand you mention.  Getting a 2 for 1 or a 3 for 1 is pretty common when playing BoF.  Also, there are more Pheonixes other than Chandra's Pheonix; they are not as good, but they do help with card advantage (late game). 

I don't know that it's necessarily one of the top 3 decks, but I will say I probably win more with BoF than most other decks. 
For which reasons do you play BoF so high in the tiers? The deck has among the worst removal that become nothing but burn to the face in the late game, some of the worst creatures in the game (that force you to play the deck almost creatureless) and the most critical problem: its only form of card advantage are through a good use of your 2 Flame of Firebrand or when you bring back a 2/2 Flying Haste. (5 cards)

Well I heard burn to the face isn't the worst option to close a game...
Seriously guys which are too big to kill come out late where you don't bother killing them. BF can be really really fast and empty an opponents board by the way or at least keep it in check (Searing Blaze, Flamebreak). Almost every single card does at least 3 damage, Chandra's Phoenix or Sulfuric Vortex usually hit repeatedly, so if your opponent has no life gain casting like 6 spells is usually enough. I've won games against Azorius on turn 6! Who cares about card advantage, if the game is over that early? Stalker + Lifegain doesn't always happen and even then you can win by denying its life gain... And you know that if your titan gets removed after its ETB that could still be a 2 for 1 or a 3 for 1 in your favour? Hostility will often find an open spot to hit as well.

I agree with most of your assessment, but I guess it depends on how you play it and the build.  I usually run BoF as a burn the face deck, so Chandra's Fury and Cone of Flame have their place in my build (sometimes; sometimes I replace them) - they damage the opponent and (possibly) remove some creatures. Rain of Embers is great vs.  all decks except Pack Instinct, if you draw it early.  Magma Pheonix is always good, unless you're at 3 life - only its cost is the problem.  Inferno Titan isn't terrible even if it gets removed because of the ETB effect.  I definitely agree with the others - they will eat removal immediately, unless you wait until they're tapped out before you play Hostility.  But you could also run a deck variant that was just Pheonixes if you're worried about card advantage and targeted removal.  I've tried it - it's a pretty decent build (I don't know if it's necessarily better than a build with Hostiliy/Inferno Titan but it does address the concerns you have above about removal).

But for the most part, I think you're right - the deck has its share of problems.  On the other hand, I don't think these problems are worse than the problems of just about any other deck (GG and SS being the exceptions since they are the most consistent).  BoF's matchups are pretty decent:

--it obliterates Dream Puppets, Crosswinds and Exalted Darkness.  A flier build for Crosswinds does better, but most don't run it.  Exalted Darkness has one card, Mark of Asylum, but barring that card, it's toast.  The turbo mill version of DP is a death sentence.  Control mill does a little better but not by much, given that BoF can get a bunch of its graveyard creatures to return, and for the most part BoF's creatures aren't worth stealing or casting Body Double on.

--it does fairly well against Obediant Dead, Goblin Gangland, Collective Might, Grinning Malice and Peacekeepers.  Obediant Dead can end it with an Obliterator, but barring that card, will mostly be in trouble unless it can get to 7 mana quickly, or if it is able to play some of its lifegain.  It is probably Goblins and Peacekeepers worst overall matchup (with Dawn Elemental being the sole saving grace for Peacekeepers) - but those decks are great so the games are still competitive.  It largely depends on whether BoF gets early mass removal spells - but it has a lot of them, so its odds are good.  I haven't really played BoF against CM but I've played CM against it many times and CM's survival chances seem to depend largely on whether it can play some of its enchantments early.  I don't think the discard part of GM really hurts that much since you can discard creatures that you can take back from the graveyard.

--it is somewhat even against Celestial Light and Mindstorms.  CL's creatures are mostly easy to kill, but its lifegain means the card advantage problems of BoF make the match more difficult.  Mindstorms has vastly superior card advantage but much weaker burn.  As long as BoF can kill MS 5cc creatures, it should be ok, but it won't always be able to do that.

-- it is pretty unfavorable against AS, SS, PI and AW.  AS is inconsistent but a good AS draw will make the game end very quickly.  The other 3 have creatures that are too big to deal with - so BoF either wins early or not at all.
Plenty of good comments on BoF.

The key is, you have plenty of reach with that burn, and your creatures are resilient and evasive.  Early removal doesn't affect BoF like it does many other decks, since you're packing phoenixes.

Any of the aggro decks that rely on tons of small creatures to win get hosed by BoF.  Fliers do give it more trouble, but you have Magma Phoenixes, Chain Reaction, and Flame Wave if you run it.

If AS gets a Daybreak Coronet on a Stalker or Spiritdancer early, you're pretty much dead in the water.  Fortunately, Spiritdancer can be burnt in response directly, and every sweeper in the deck can take out an early Stalker before they build him up.  

I'm actually surprised someone mentioned SS as a bad match for BoF; in my experience, it's been the complete opposite, so much that I'd call BoF a great counter-pick against SS.  SS is by no means a fast deck, so your resilient/efficient fliers (especially Chandra's Phoenix) gets them into burn range for the kill pretty fast.
 

I'm actually surprised someone mentioned SS as a bad match for BoF; in my experience, it's been the complete opposite, so much that I'd call BoF a great counter-pick against SS.  SS is by no means a fast deck, so your resilient/efficient fliers (especially Chandra's Phoenix) gets them into burn range for the kill pretty fast.



I was going to say pretty much this exact same thing. I've been running a lot of BoF since the expansion came out, and I would honestly say that BoF is the best counter to SS in 1v1. I've played it quite a few times and I always just end up straight up out-damaging them, it only has 1 way of gaining life and it's easily removed with this deck.

The wipes are far less useful against BoF due to the phoenix's and whatnot, by the time SS can pose a threat they are typically already at low enough hp to where you can just face burn. The only genuine problem I've encountered against SS is a turn 3 Troll Ascetic followed by turn 4 Rancor, which can only be killed with a wipe, which is not very hard to do honestly. BoF has the advantage over SS in pretty much every way, it's just too quick early on and SS has no real way to recover from it.
BF can beat up on SS easily and while GG might have a slight edge against it, by no means is it a overwhelming win. If BF beats your tier one deck easily and is almost a 50/50 against the other one, why isn't it in tier 1? And whle MS is a very difficult deck to play and has a bad mana curve, the burn versions used by Geg and other's aren't bottom of the barrel. You are playing/building your deck wrong if you think MS is that bad.
My point about BoF vs. SS was just that SS creatures can get big quickly.  BoF has very little answer to a Lord of Extinction or Sewer Nemesis when it hits the board, for example.  SS can potentially ramp quickly, and has some decent life gain options.  But I do agree that the SS removal is not very effective against BF, so maybe it evens out.  I think SS on the whole will do better against BF but perhaps it isn't as unfavorable as I've suggested.
BoF generally kills you before your Lord or Nemesis can kill them.  Phoenixes fly, and all they have to do is hit SS a few times before they can be blown out with burn.  SS is still very resilient, though, so if you can stick an early Troll with a Rancor, get the early removal to slow their creature damage, hit a Consuming Vapors, or live long enough to drop a Pelakka Wurm, you can be good.

Regarding decks like CM and MS getting wins...they sure can.  Player skill, build quality, draw luck, and specific matchups all affect how the games play out.  Both decks are still very capable of winning, along with all of the decks.  The higher ones seem to match up better against more decks, but that doesn't make the others worthless by any means.
BoF is secerly vulnerable to life gain.  A thragtusk, blood artist, or even a swords to plowshares can turn a win into a loss.  BoF just gets to top draw way too quick.



Seriously guys which are too big to kill come out late where you don't bother killing them.



Spiritmonger costs 5 mana in a deck that has some ramp. I know it's a single example, but when you play BoF your game usually ends when you're topdecking against a fatty.


Well the 2 emissaries are situational ramp, but if they won't get hit by my sweeper I wouldn't bother killing them. Besides that there's only land fetch and even with that SS might miss a land drop from time to time. Let's say Monger comes out turn 5 regularly (Some careful players may also save it for turn 6, but OK). If you don't face the Blood Artist, that should give you enough time to finish the game until turn 8, which should be enough for a burn to the face-build.
Blood Artist can hurt in this match up, but usually gets killed by a sweeper or Searing Blaze without losing too much.



BF can be really really fast and empty an opponents board by the way or at least keep it in check (Searing Blaze, Flamebreak). Almost every single card does at least 3 damage, Chandra's Phoenix or Sulfuric Vortex usually hit repeatedly, so if your opponent has no life gain casting like 6 spells is usually enough. I've won games against Azorius on turn 6! Who cares about card advantage, if the game is over that early?



Turn 6 means you have 13 cards total when you're on the draw if you did not mulligan (aside from the first free mulligan) out of these 13 cards you'll mostly get 5 lands. (5.2 average when you run 60 cards) you then need 7 good burn spells straight to the face... 7 burn spell is about 1/3 of all the burn this deck could ever get if you build it with every single burn card there is, and some of them are conditional (landfall, creature on board) but we can assume that if we burn the player, there will be creatures to target so a chandra's outrage to finish off your opponent could be possible. I understand the possibilities of a god hand against a slower deck where you can just burn him for 20 in 6 turns.. if you're lucky... but that's not the point. In the long run, Born of Flame is more suceptible to mana flood, mana screw and all that because you see less cards. In your 13 cards total (on the draw + no mulligan) you're gonna need luck to get the right cards but also the right cards at the right time.

This is why card advantage is so important.


I won't argue that CA is one of the most important things in MTG, but I don't see having enough spells being so situational.
With 5 lands you have 8 other cards on turn 6, if you're on the play, 9 if you're on the draw. Things are getting even better turns 7 and 8.

In a burn faces build everything deals damage and I don't include cards like Fire Servant, Rain of Embers and only 2 Outrages.
Let's face the cards:
Searing Blaze                         3 player damage (I never play this for 1!)
Searing Spear                         3
Chandra’s Phoenix                 Usually 4-8 damage or card advantage (yeah, I know theres exiling)
Sulfuric Vortex                        2-6 (well, doesn’t come back when removed, I usually play Phoenix first)
Flames of the Firebrand         3
Flamebreak                            3
Flames of the Blood Hand      4
Beacon of Destruction            5
RSZ                                         4-6
Earthquake                             4-6
Blaze                                       4-6
Fireblast                                  4
Flame Slash                            0 (OK, there's an exception)
That’s already around 30 cards being core of most builds and dealing at least 3 damage.

You could add Cone of Flame (3 damage), Inferno Titan (3) and Chandra’s Fury (4) or go the more risky creature route (Fireheart, Chandra's Spitfire, Hostility -> can deal loads or zero damage) from there on.


The only thing you have to manage is choosing a starting hand which lets you curve up to constantly play your spells. Of course BF can get mana screwed or flooded (like any other deck). But I don’t see it happen too often to a skilled player who knows which hand to keep.


The only thing destroying that build is not big creatures, but life gain. But well that’s good for the balance of the game, isn’t it?



Funny sidenote about the Azorius match up:
I had it in the PSN tourney 2 times this week and here are the rundowns copied from the other thread:


1st:
Ilikes Kor Spiritdancer was hit by a Searing Blaze and things got going. Chandra's Phoenix could only be temporarily stopped by Pariah . Flames of the Blood Hand , Searing Spear and Red Sun's Zenith closed the game on turn 6.
->That was only 5 spells


2nd:
Chandra's Phoenix
started attacking Logans life from turn 3 on. I had a Flamebreak for his first Invisible Stalker and kept attacking. Logan stopped Chandra's Spitfire with Pariah , but I killed it and went on. Sixth turn Logan finally managed to get a big creature on the field by enchanting another Stalker with Empyrial Armor . Luckily I could deal another 2 flying damage and bring him to 0 life with Searing Spear and Flames of the Blood Hand on my next turn.
-> That was 4 spells + the dead Spitfire


(I remember having more spells in hand at least in one of the games)

I agree with the above - direct burn with BF is the way to go and turn 6 kills are pretty much consistent. Another advantage is that most players didn't expect that you put them on clock from beginning of the game.
BoF is secerly vulnerable to life gain.  A thragtusk, blood artist, or even a swords to plowshares can turn a win into a loss.  BoF just gets to top draw way too quick.

i know it's only one card but sulfuric vortex is an auto include in a burn to the face build, but is still effective in other builds that aren't as aggressive.
BoF is secerly vulnerable to life gain.  A thragtusk, blood artist, or even a swords to plowshares can turn a win into a loss.  BoF just gets to top draw way too quick.

i know it's only one card but sulfuric vortex is an auto include in a burn to the face build, but is still effective in other builds that aren't as aggressive.



Sulfuric Vortex is a fantastic card in a burn build, you will be able to outdamage any deck (if they can't gain life, obviously) so you shouldn't really ever be worried about losing life. Also, Blood Artist almost never makes any type of real impact when I see it come out, I just remove it before it starts racking up the life. Not hard at all with a deck full of burn spells...
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