What happens when you win and loss at the same time?

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What if I had a card that made me loss the game at the begining of my upkeep, (Summoner's Pact) but had a card that made me win on the field as well. (Felidar Sovereign, Near-Death Experience, etc.)

I tried looking up online but that just confused me... Before I was under the assumption I was able to choose which upkeep abilities triggered first...
you don't win and lose at the same time in this case
you control the triggers, you put them on the stack in whichever order you want, they resolve in reverse order and then you either win or lose
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Then would I be able to do this:


If I had 40 life, and Reya Dawnbringer on the field and  Felidar Sovereign in my graveyard could I win in the upkeep?



Also thank you, that whole win and loss thing was bugging me out. 
no, the "beginning of the upkeep" happens only once, if the Sovereign is not on the field at that moment he will not trigger


also, for completeness sake for the original answer:
104.3f If a player would both win and lose the game simultaneously, he or she loses the game.

but I don't know any combo off the top of my head that achieves that
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You cannot. The Sovereign needs to be on the batttlefield when the upkeep starts in order for it to trigger. If it enters the battlefield during the upkeep, its ability will not trigger. So you'd have to wait for your next upkeep (more than likely on your next turn) in order for the ability to trigger.

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Thank you both Wink
no, the "beginning of the upkeep" happens only once, if the Sovereign is not on the field at that moment he will not trigger


also, for completeness sake for the original answer:
104.3f If a player would both win and lose the game simultaneously, he or she loses the game.

but I don't know any combo off the top of my head that achieves that



The best I can think of is you case Tezzeret's Gambit while you have 1 card in your library and 19 counters on a Darksteel Reactor, which you choose to proliferate.
no, the "beginning of the upkeep" happens only once, if the Sovereign is not on the field at that moment he will not trigger


also, for completeness sake for the original answer:
104.3f If a player would both win and lose the game simultaneously, he or she loses the game.

but I don't know any combo off the top of my head that achieves that



The best I can think of is you case Tezzeret's Gambit while you have 9 poison counters and 19 counters on a Darksteel Reactor and choose to proliferate both.



That doesn't work. The poison SBA makes you lose before the triggered ability from the Reactor is even put on the stack.

There is a situation where it can apply, as described in this thread.
oh that's right, state based triggers are still triggers, aren't they.

Well, then, I'm lost on how you can do it.
I'm thinking it isn't possible to win and lose at the same time, given existing cards.  "You win" and "you lose" effects are generally triggered abilities, so they will resolve separately from each other and from state-based actions.  The only related effect I can find that isn't a triggered ability is on Laboratory Maniac.  When I first thought about it, it seemed like you might be able to do it if you had a Laboratory Maniac, an empty library, and either 9 poison counters or 1 life, and someone targeted you with a Caress of Phyrexia.  However, there's this rule:

104.1. A game ends immediately when a player wins, when the game is a draw, or when the game is
restarted.



So, given that Laboratory Maniac will replace each card draw on Caress of Phyrexia with "You win the game," I think the game would end after the first "game win" happened, before you even lose life or get poison counters, and long before SBAs are checked to kill you.

If there is a way to have a simultaneous win & loss, I think it would have to involve the presence and then removal of cards that prevent winning or losing.  But even then, I can't come up with a scenario that doesn't end with either one player winning or the game being a draw.
it's possible,
but this doesn't do it (see Cyphern's example below)
cast Cruel Ultimatum at an opponent with less than 5 life and when you have less than three cards in your library

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in that case both players would win and lose, so both would lose, so it's a draw
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in that case both players would win and lose, so both would lose, so it's a draw


I don't think they would both win and lose; they would both just lose, which is still a draw.

104.4a If all the players remaining in a game lose simultaneously, the game is a draw.


I think a player can only win like this if the opponent loses and he/she doesn't.

104.2a A player still in the game wins the game if all of that player’s opponents have left the game.
This happens immediately and overrides all effects that would prevent that player from winning
the game.

yeah, I was looking at CR104 and realized they both would lose without winning

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I linked to a relevant thread, but that seems to have been missed.

Suppose you control a Nefarious Lich and a Laboratory Maniac, have no cards in your graveyard or library, and then activate the ability of a Thrashing Wumpus that's been enchanted with Lifelink. You'll simultaneously be dealt damage and gain life, except that the former is replaced by you losing the game and the latter is replaced by you drawing a card and then replaced again by you winning the game.
I linked to a relevant thread, but that seems to have been missed.

Suppose you control a Nefarious Lich and a Laboratory Maniac, have no cards in your graveyard or library, and then activate the ability of a Thrashing Wumpus that's been enchanted with Lifelink. You'll simultaneously be dealt damage and gain life, except that the former is replaced by you losing the game and the latter is replaced by you drawing a card and then replaced again by you winning the game.


It seems we have our solution.  I did overlook that link, adeyke.  Thanks.
Suppose you control a Nefarious Lich and a Laboratory Maniac, have no cards in your graveyard or library, and then activate the ability of a Thrashing Wumpus that's been enchanted with Lifelink. You'll simultaneously be dealt damage and gain life, except that the former is replaced by you losing the game and the latter is replaced by you drawing a card and then replaced again by you winning the game.

Doesn't work. Card draws are always isolated; if a card draw replaces an event, the card draw will happen after the original event. In this situation you will lose the game first.

120.7. Some replacement effects and prevention effects result in one or more card draws. In such a case, if there are any parts of the original event that haven’t been replaced, those parts occur first, then the card draws happen one at a time.

Note that 120.7 used to only apply when multiple cards where drawn as part of a replacement effect.  As this change was made as part of the M13 rules update, there was a period of nine months were that method worked.
Interesting.  When I first read it, I was skeptical regarding whether 120.7 would apply here, since the interacting replacement effects don't result in any actual card draws, but something in CR 614.1 has me convinced.

614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen—they aren’t locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like “shields” around whatever they’re affecting.

Although the bolded part does seem to contradict CR 120.7 (how can the game re-order the events if it doesn't look ahead to see what will be replaced?), but if we ignore that, it sounds like even though the card draw from Nefarious Lich's ability gets replaced, the fact that it's a replacement effect that tries to generate card draw has already made the game decide that that event will happen last.  The card draw would be replaced by Laboratory Maniac in real time, but the game never gets to that part because the "you lose" effect replacing the graveyard exile occurs first.
You can win and lose at the same time if you Zap yourself at 1 life with no cards in your library and controlling a Laboratory Maniac.
You can win and lose at the same time if you Zap yourself at 1 life with no cards in your library and controlling a Laboratory Maniac.



No, in that case you win the game.  The game will be over before SBAs check to see if you are at 0 life and make you lose.
 
"104.3 A player can concede the game at any time." Just get a laboratory maniac in play, attempt to draw from an empty library, then concede as the replacement effect is occuring :33.

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Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
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Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
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.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
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You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
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I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
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we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
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Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
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Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
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This just won the argument, AFAIC.
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HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
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Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
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First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
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