Tactical Winpriest

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Has anyone looked at the synergy on a Tactical Warpriest lately? L16 is outside my normal range of interest, but jeez. There's some sexy stuff you can do here:

* Yakuza theme and a real honest-to-goodness opportunity attack as mark punishment.

* Anyone remember when Heavy Blade Opportunity was all hubba hubba?  It gets a Raquel Welch "Daaaaaaaamn Girl, You Hotter Than Your Granddaughter" moment here. 

* Speaking of old sexy, it gives a nod to the last of the V8 Interceptors with an Extra Damage Action that still doesn't care about the pedigree of your standard action attacks.  Hm, I wonder if Ranger hybrids with Cleric?  A turbosupercharged Twin Strike as a mark punishment can't possibly be worth pursuing ... 

Leader? Definitely. Defender? Definitelier. Striker? Definiteliest.

Dragonborn Cleric|Ranger/Paladin/Tactical Warpriest
Level 16
Str 22, Con 14, Dex 15, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 20
Athletics+19, History+14, Intimidate+26, Perception+13, Stealth+15, Streetwise+15
Battle Cleric's Lore
Yakuza Theme
Born Under a Bad Sign


TS: +24 to hit. (+8lvl+6Str+2prof+4enh+2ft+2CA)
  +5 with OA vs target hit with CA since last turn
  +1 racial when bloodied
  -2 sans CA
  On melee or close natural 1, reroll 1/enc

TS: 2d4+19 cold. (+4enh+3feat+2item+ 3shard+2GoI+5LF)
  +2d6 Quarry with Ranger attacks 1/rd
  +8 on AP round with standard action attacks
  +6 Strength with attacks other than Twin Strike
  +5 with OA vs target hit with CA since last turn
  +5 with CA 1/enc
  -5 sans LF
  +4d6 cold on crit
  Mark with Twin Strike or Righteous Brand, EOE or till used again
  Target -2 to hit TEONT if both TS blows hit
  With minor -2 damage but ignore 5 cold resist


AC 37. (18+10armr+4enh+2shld+1ft+1def+1PP)
Fortitude 30. (23+6Str+1item)
Reflex 26. (23+2Dex+1cls)
Will 29. (23+5Cha+1cls)
ALL: +2 vs OAs
ALL: +2 after Ruthless Demonstration till hit
---
109 HPs and 8 29-pt Surges
  On cold damage enemies within 2 slowed TEONT


Initiative+13. Speed 6. Normal Vision.
Common, Draconic.

1: Weapon Proficiency (Zulaat)
2: Heavy Blade Expertise
4: Walker of the Dark Path
8: Improved Defenses
10: Wintertouched
11: Lasting Frost
11: Icy Heart
12: Armor Specialization (Scale)
14: Heavy Blade Opportunity
16: Impending Doom Style


A1: Righteous Brand
A1: Twin Strike
---
E1: Mighty Hew
E3: Ruffling Sting
E11: Battle Cry
E13: Off-Hand Diversion
---
D5: Two-Wolf Pounce
D9: Divine Power
D15: Blade Cascade
---
A1: Hunter's Quarry (Hybrid)
E1: Dragon Breath (Cold)
E1: Healing Word
E1: Ruthless Demonstration
E2: Invigorating Stride
D4: Shroud of Shadow
iE5: Free. On failed first save, delay effect TEONT and doesn't count as first failed save.
E6: Bastion of Health
A10(r16): Persistent Tail
iD10: Minor. Spend HS but -1 item Fortitude.
D12: Battle Favor
iD14: Gain non-attack standard action. (Pairs with UD16.)
D16: Cure Critical Wounds
iE17: Minor. Enemy within 5 -2 to hit wearer TEONT.
iD18: Free. On hit +2d8+X cold and slowed TEONT. 


(Incomplete and probably a wee bit overbudget)
18: Frost Zulaat +4 85000
17: Screaming Scale +4 65000
14: Timeless Locket +3 21000
12: Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold +3 13000
11: Gloves of Ice 9000
10: Diamond Cincture 5000
6: Iron Armbands of Power +2 1800
5: Symbol of Scorned Fate +1 1000



What's that you say? By L16 most of your enemies teleport, wield OA-free shifts, etc? Yea, well: Persistent Tail. Again, it's an OA mark, leaving the build's Immediate Reaction free to chase his victim around the battlefield. Now certainly, a teleporter could bamf behind some obstacles or other monsters and make it difficult to catch up. Then again A) that gives this build an excuse to actually use the freebie +2 vs OAs from Heavy Blade Expertise and B) a shrewd player should be able to use positioning just as much as the DM, effectively requiring his mark to move where it can't effectively attack any party member if it wants to escape the Warpriest.

Let's not forget Warpriest's Strategy, which makes a very nice pairing with Blade Cascade.

Anyway, it's pretty nasty, assuming you can very patiently wait for L16 to completely redefine your build.

 
I always liked tactical warpriest on stealth builds with a more contolling attack (eldrich strike + feyslaughter flail).

But yes, it's a powerful PP for a defender/striker.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I always liked tactical warpriest on stealth builds with a more contolling attack (eldrich strike + feyslaughter flail). But yes, it's a powerful PP for a defender/striker.

Oh, it's never been a dog. But you add Yakuza for offense and Battle Cleric's Lore for defense and it leaps from tier B+ to tier A+ assuming you have a high chance of reaching mid-Paragon.

If the build above picks on a monster that attacks at +21 vs AC, it puts its mark in a box where on rough average it needs to roll an 18.5 to hit the Warpriest* or it must eat a hideous OA to attack someone else. No permahidden hijinks, no y'all-stay-out-of-reach restrictions. Just simple, flexible choose-between-being-useless-or-being-dead lockdown.

AC 37+fully stackable:
*-2 Screaming Scale 1/enc
*-2 when both Twin Strike attacks hit
*-2 after Ruthless Demo until someone hits the Warpriest again
*-2 or -5 on the rare occasion that he Persistent Tails into cover and/or makes his Stealth roll
 
 
Always thought of it as an A+.

Yakuza is a bit harder since it's Wis/Cha.  So you loose something (in this case, choice of cleric attacks, and the PP powers, possibly a feat for reserve manuver).  But otherwise you can boost OA's massivly.  Like with an ardent ally.

And i enjoy hyjinks much more over simply being "powerful".  

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Always thought of it as an A+.

Yea, but you're mellow. You probably curve up Sword Coast Corsair to a solid B because, hey, it's colorful. ;)
Yakuza is a bit harder since it's Wis/Cha.  So you loose something (in this case, choice of cleric attacks, and the PP powers, possibly a feat for reserve manuver).

Dude, please. Never posted a build that couldn't effectively use its PP powers. Never will. Tactical Warpriest is Strength or Wisdom on both attacks.
And i enjoy hyjinks much more over simply being "powerful".  

Oh this is exactly the sort of build that I dread as a DM. I'd probably never muster the hypocritical chutzpah to play it myself. ;) 
Dude, please. Never posted a build that couldn't effectively use its PP powers. Never will. Tactical Warpriest is Strength or Wisdom on both attacks.

 

So it is...  carry on then. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Mellored: you're not crazy.  It was originally just wis: they changed it to Wis/Str in the Templar article (that also horribly nerfed it, before they decided to undo that nerf)

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Fer what it's worth, I'm playing around with this on an Avenger off-tank.  So Sam instead of Yak (for early positioning).. and thus PoS says I don't need HBO while still proning at-will (and depending on positioning, also invalidating some attacks)

But yeah, was heading toward candle/persistent tail/stealth stupidity as a way to try and make the catch-22 a little worse.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Mellored: you're not crazy.

What a horrible thing to say 


guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Mellored: you're not crazy.

What a horrible thing to say 


My kitty avatar approves of these messages.

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

Fer what it's worth, I'm playing around with this on an Avenger off-tank.  So Sam instead of Yak (for early positioning).. and thus PoS says I don't need HBO while still proning at-will (and depending on positioning, also invalidating some attacks)

I love the idea of Samurai theme on an Avenger, except of course he won't be able to do much with the two Charisma-based skill riders. I know, I know. I'm anal that way.

But yeah, was heading toward candle/persistent tail/stealth stupidity as a way to try and make the catch-22 a little worse.

A year ago I would have hung my head, rubbed one toe in the dirt, and mumbled, "Yeah ... you're right." That was before you yourself regaled me with how cynically some LFR modules treat defender mechanics. So, eh, fair's fair right? (Tit-for-tat escalation always works out well for both sides!  )

Also, I'm way less embarrassed to break out Persistent Tail if I'm mostly just using it for off-turn chase-down, as is the case here. Any stealth bombing by this build will just be a lucky extra-thick layer of icing. Using Persistent Tail for permahidden is a substantially more cheesy prospect, in my mind. And breaking out The Candle ... yea, that's a pure I Haz No Shame move. ;)
While i will often take cheese to the table, i won't actually take anything powerful. Like i'll make a permastealth pixie, then take skill training (athletics) instead of weapon focus or nimble blade. Or i'll take a revenant with 5 minors, and use them to teleport excessivly. Other times i will just refrain from using encounter and daily powers.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Your items are a wee bit overbudget, yes. Budget at L16 is 160,000. You'd have to go with +3 weapons and armor (and don't forget masterwork when you're redoing it).
I love the idea of Samurai theme on an Avenger, except of course he won't be able to do much with the two Charisma-based skill riders.

I'm taking suggestions...

My basic idea is to be a compotent off-tank.  This isn't expected to be anything table breaking, basically just a baseline striker with a side of off-tank.  For example, I'm taking more "Woodshed" powers than off-action.

I'd considered guardian, but concluded that I felt the ability to get next to people early on would be better.  Especially once I added in Persistent Tail (ignoring the stealth aspect, just the movement bits)... saving move actions would add to the sticky aspect.  (And, as an Wood elf, I'll go first pretty frequently)

That was before you yourself regaled me with how cynically some LFR modules treat defender mechanics.

Unlike Billy, I have no delusion that this is a solid DPR build.  I was just chucking it out as "Yeah, I like tacpriest too.  Here's what I've been looking at it for" sort of thing.

So yes, LFR monsters will regularly ignore my mark punishement.  My expectation is that I'll tank one monster a fight... I just have to make sure to not choose the wrong skirmishers to tank.

On the other hand, Billyh did convince me that Prone + Persistent Tail did work surprisingly well to lock down creatures.  So I think I'll attract a fair amount of heat...  Defenses are really required.  And thus the additional +5 to defenses may end up being worth it... depending on the optimization level of the table.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

While i will often take cheese to the table, i won't actually take anything powerful.

That's pretty much my approach. One little piece here or there, no sweat. Stacking gouda on top of cheddar on top of gorgonzola on top of pimento spread ... you're flirting with gauche. 


Your items are a wee bit overbudget, yes. Budget at L16 is 160,000. You'd have to go with +3 weapons and armor (and don't forget masterwork when you're redoing it).

It's just the weapon. Drop it to +3 and you're under budget. Technically it's an accurate build for somewhere en route to L17, given you'll already have been saving gp for that +4 upgrade as you entered L16.

I always upgrade armor first, even on strikers, precisely because of the masterwork math.

I love the idea of Samurai theme on an Avenger, except of course he won't be able to do much with the two Charisma-based skill riders.

I'm taking suggestions...

Me? My Avenger Fu mostly consists of cribbing from your guide. ;) The terminal feat crunch frustrates me to no end. Love the class concept, but I suspect they could get a native Wisdom-based MBA and be allowed to wear leather and only then be as flexible as some other striker frameworks.

I'm taking suggestions...

My basic idea is to be a compotent off-tank.  This isn't expected to be anything table breaking, basically just a baseline striker with a side of off-tank.  For example, I'm taking more "Woodshed" powers than off-action.

I'd considered guardian, but concluded that I felt the ability to get next to people early on would be better.  Especially once I added in Persistent Tail (ignoring the stealth aspect, just the movement bits)... saving move actions would add to the sticky aspect.  (And, as an Wood elf, I'll go first pretty frequently)

1) I'm a big fan of this.

2) Why Wood Elf over Githzerai? Githzerai get +2 racial to init, and GBM saves a feat (which can go to improved initiative), meaning your init will be very comparable (and much better when you boost with things like Battle Harness, an item bonus, superior init, your warlord buddy...). Githzerai features seem much better for tanking though. And Githzerai Mobility makes Persistent Tail even nicer.
2) Why Wood Elf over Githzerai? Githzerai get +2 racial to init, and GBM saves a feat (which can go to improved initiative), meaning your init will be very comparable (and much better when you boost with things like Battle Harness, an item bonus, superior init, your warlord buddy...)

"You Warlord Buddy" is the only one really worth mentioning there.

  1. +Racial to Perception vs +Racial to Initiative.  It's a wash.

  2. Backgrounds can boost perception by two, or Initiative by one.

  3. +5 for being trained in a skill is greater than +4 for spending a feat.

  4. You're a freaking avenger: feats are expensive.  And if you're knocking prone on MBA, you're not using a fullblade.  Gith doesn't save me a feat here.

  5. +Item to perception is cheaper (in terms of opportunity cost) than +item to Init.  It's cheap, common, headband you upgrade once a tier.

  6. Danger Sense still works, if you need to spend a feat to make sure you go first.

  7. Perception investment is useful outside of combat... init investment isn't.

  8. Yes, come epic, you'll miss superior Init.  Or rather, you won't because you'll have not gone first something like 5 times in your career, and be completely ahead of the monsters.

  9. It's an 18 Wis/14 Dex build, because BCL cheese (ok, yes. It turns out the build is a solid quesadilla).  So basing Init off of perception has higher-than-normal returns.

  10. (Ok, having looked it up.  Gith Mobility is really cool here: that is a solid advantage for Gith.  As is actually HAVING a racial, not having given it up for a feat, and +2 to saves that come up often)


I say this from my experience playing "Kavi", who is a wood elf, but is not a warpriest. (Avenger|Skald.  feat starved as all get out.  *whimper*).  I think I've not gone first one time in his career so far (he's level 12)

But again, I'm not suggesting a CharOp build or I'd have created a thread.  Just chiming in to say "yes, Warpriest is cool"

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima


The more I poke around at your concept, the more I suspect that you're running afoul of two goals that don't really support one another:

Samurai: Alphaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa STRIKE!!! [insert giant anime explosion]
TactiTail Priestistent: Wherever you go, there you are. And me too, John Bigbooté. Me, too.

Going with a Wood Elf Samurai is really clever, but in my experience I'd almost want to be last in the batting order before picking a mark. Let my allies minion-test the competition, get an idea which brutish-appearing lout with massive greatclub actually has ranged 10 garlic breath, etc. Only then come rolling in like the final boss.

But table dynamics vary immensely, and that may not be an ideal approach for everyone.
I remember playing the glass cannon, and having to memorize the words "I delay until after the defender".  So as a half-tank, I think it's a good idea to go first to take on monster off to the side an protect the squishies.  It's not good for my glory, but the point of defenders is being a team.

So ... Sam in this context is just about the move.  I don't have enough multi-attacks to make the crit range interesting.  It's just the no-action move up to someone, so that I can save my move action for persistent tail. 

Yes, it's nicer if the wizard can minion-test everyone first.  Won't always be possible... so I think I'll just live with on occassion picking out the guy with the huge close-blast power. 

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Going first is really just the same thing as going last, but with a free hit. I mean, if you find yourself picking the wrong target too often, you can always take Refocus Enmity or something.

I'm still not all that convinced on Samurai. Shift half your speed means the enemy had to start within 3 of you to matter, which shouldn't happen very much, unless you're using it to clear a charge distance of 10 instead of 7.
Going last but saving the enemy a Move Action. It's one of those two-edged swords of middle-op characters where you have to drop your damage to increase defenses because your damage is too low to kill something outright and your defenses are too low to survive the backlash ... which is a nice spiral effect.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I'm still not all that convinced on Samurai. Shift half your speed means the enemy had to start within 3 of you to matter, which shouldn't happen very much

Getting it to 4 is easy enough.  Getting it to 5 is nearly impossible.  5 is, IME, close to enough to be useful.

So I didn't mean to derail this, but ... what other themes would people suggest?

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Going last but saving the enemy a Move Action. It's one of those two-edged swords of middle-op characters where you have to drop your damage to increase defenses because your damage is too low to kill something outright and your defenses are too low to survive the backlash ... which is a nice spiral effect.



Eh...sorta. I mean, I actually saw this problem fairly often from both other players and myself (although I tend to 'trade': I KO one, the rest of team monster KOs me). I think if your character can maintain at least one passable ranged option though, the decision tree becomes binary:

Does your Defender and/or Controller go before a significant subset of enemies?
If yes > Do your standard opening katas
If no > Free repositioning + RBA? 

Getting it to 4 is easy enough.  Getting it to 5 is nearly impossible.  5 is, IME, close to enough to be useful.


So I didn't mean to derail this, but ... what other themes would people suggest?


Yeah, by the time the +2 speed boots come online, there are better mobility options available...I did consider at one point Samurai + some flavor of Monk using Quicksilver Motion. This generally does save you your movement action on T1, and without need to charge.

Themes: Sohei, Elemental Initiate, the usual. Avengers have high defenses and don't really get a full compliment of immediates soon enough, so I tend to think Elemental Initiate is a good fit. Samurai is probably still good on a Elf Avenger assuming you can whip out 2-3 attacks off on T1 and using a Rending Weapon.
Just addingan idea I had to this conversation: brash assult.
If your dm takes the gamble then the monster don't last long

I don't have enough multi-attacks to make the crit range interesting.

That's kind of a shame because, you know, Avenger. If you're going Tactical Warpriest, I'm kind of assuming Censure of Retribution or Unity anyway. (Unless you feel like you need the Pursuit bonuses piled on top to really, really ensure that your mark won't move. That seems cross-purposey to me.) I'd be tempted to Turn 1 Kata with Minor: OoE, Standard: Crimson Stride, and Minor: Fury's Advance. It's still only four attack rolls (a 48% crit chance) but it should be easy to add 15 to your damage with positioning and three cooperating allies. Then your OoE mark is stuck in a gantlet of your allies---improving the odds that you won't need to fuss about to get your reroll on further attack---but he's unable to lash about at the more fragile allies. Unless of course he unveils a nasty burst power as previously discussed.

Better yet, bring along a Druid ally and he'll love you for setting up the cataclysmic Charm Beast beatdown so nicely. Only the toughest elites or a solo will live long enough to fire off an AoE counterpunch.

Going first is really just the same thing as going last, but with a free hit.

Going last but saving the enemy a Move Action.

My practical experience could not agree with Zathris more. 

It's one of those two-edged swords of middle-op characters where you have to drop your damage to increase defenses because your damage is too low to kill something outright and your defenses are too low to survive the backlash ... which is a nice spiral effect.

AKA, playing the game as designed. ;) This is a little off-topic because I think that kilpatds plans on using the Avenger stats to survive said beatdown, and the real concern here is wasting an OoE tag and whatever Samurai minimininova he has on a less than ideal member of Team Monster. But it's a valid observation to which I would add: If your DM doesn't advertise minions as minions and loves him some monster interrupts, you never really know whether you're high-op or just middle-op entering a given encounter.

I mean, if you find yourself picking the wrong target too often, you can always take Refocus Enmity or something.

I'm always wary of this sort of approach. (The "Just Clean It Up With 'Reserve Maneuver'" school of design.) Any Avenger build has umpteen pressing needs competing for each and every feat slot until late paragon at the earliest.   Adding an umpteen+1 need may not be optimal. EDIT: Never mind. Refocus Enmity is a U2. Told you my Avenger Fu was weak.

(Unless you feel like you need the Pursuit bonuses piled on top to really, really ensure that your mark won't move. That seems cross-purposey to me.)

Exactly that.  Actually take people off to the side, in violation of the "the woodshed in next to the fighter" directions I've put in the guide.  You can close burst me all you want, you can attack me all you want.  If you want to go pick on anyone weaker, I'll kill you really really quickly.

The meta-goal is exploring if it's possible to create a full-blown defender on a non-defender chassis.

At this point, i've probably got too much on "attack me", and not enough on "don't bother attacking me".  On "don't bother", I've just got Scale+2 AC, Imp Defs, Sup Will, and a resistance power or two.  On "attack me", I've got At-will prone (Flail expertise, PoS), Censure Bonus, Persistant Tail, TacWarpriest mark and mark enforcement.

So the interesting part of Elemental Initiate is the option of going with Iron Body Ki-Focus... that's a bit more "don't bother"

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima