I'm not normally one to complain but...

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Did my first RTR draft tonight and drafted a very strong Rakdos deck (including 2 Dreadbore, Ash Zealot, Underworld Connections and other goodies) and went 1-2.  The reason

Round 1 (0-2) 17 draw steps, 15 land
Round 3 (1-2) Game 2 8 draw steps 0 land and Game 3 7 draw steps 6 land

I am happy to accept flood and screw as part of the game but 4 games out of 7 seems totally ridiculous!
Wow. Just. Wow.

Break up land clumps between games is all I can say. Shuffle afterward obviously, but I've been doing that a lot and haven't had mana flood problems recently. 'Course, that probably means I'll be mana screwed/flooded/screwed in tonight's sealed. 

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

"Break up land clumps" = cheating or completely pointless.  If you shuffle properly, it's pointless (you end in a random state even if you didn't mana weave first).  If you don't shuffle properly, you're cheating.
It's not cheating if you shuffle afterwards and present your deck to your opponent.  And I'm pretty sure Falcon shuffled between games, so an alternate method of dispersing cards seems in order. 

I'm not saying "take your lands out and stack them through your deck and then you're good to go," seriously.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

Undoing land clumps and then shuffling properly isn't going to have any effect at all.  You're just wasting time because if you shuffle properly, the deck is going to be sufficiently random, meaing that you still have the chance to only draw lands.  Sufficiently random DOES NOT mean an even distribution of lands and spells.

If you undo any land clumps with the intention of the deck being evenly distributed in terms of spells and lands, then you're not shuffling properly (thus cheating), wasting time (stalling, which is cheating again) or just bad at understanding statistics.

Before you guys keep going at it, shouldn't someone ask whether this was online or offline? Online I lose more matches to hitting mana issues / muligans in 2 out of 3 games than to any other issue. If it's online there's nothing he can do to shuffle better or worse.
I have to mulligan both online and offline. Heck, in my last offline draft I was stuck having to mulligan to six game one and five game two. Any difference between online and offline should be very small if it exists and all, and shouldn't be able to be noticed by a human I would think. Luck, bias, and just the general difficaulty humans have wrapping their head around statistics can be attributed to that. Sometimes it's harder to tell if you're being screwed offline because the players are generally at a lower level.
I hear you Falcon. I drafted online the other day and I thought I had a very solid deck and ended up with circumstances very similar to yours. Feel free to complain. In fact, we ought to have a thread specifically dedicated to complaining about being screwed by the Magic gods in one way or another.
This is probably one of the bigger complaints about the game, and you can tell wizards is trying to keep it limited with adding all the dual non-basic lands but yeah, unless there is a fundemental rules shift everyone is going to lose to screw or flood a certain % of the time.

It's why I'm more comfortable drafting 18 lands these days, depending on my curve.

Anyone else hate holding a hand with 2 land in it?
Tolkein was a jerk. Seriously, what DM sends 9 Wraith Lords at a Lvl 2 party of Halflings. The only 'correct' way to play D&D is by whatever method is making the group you have at that session, have the most fun.
This is probably one of the bigger complaints about the game, and you can tell wizards is trying to keep it limited with adding all the dual non-basic lands but yeah, unless there is a fundemental rules shift everyone is going to lose to screw or flood a certain % of the time.

It's why I'm more comfortable drafting 18 lands these days, depending on my curve.

Anyone else hate holding a hand with 2 land in it?



I do. I always envision the perfect opening hand but only with 2 land. Then I keep it and draw no land the rest of the game. Ugh. I still keep 2 land hands but I don't usually do so with any confidence.
Statistically you have to keep 2 land hands, but if you fail to hit your third land drop it will likely end badly for you. My main problem with the current system is that to play enough land not to get 0 and 1 land hands, you must play enough lands that mana flood is a serious possibility. A lot of the times the game is decided by a single card, and I hate to loose because I happened to draw 2-3 less spells in my first 14+ cards than my opponent because I flooded and he didn't. The other is the sheer number of times I muligan 0 and 1 land hands into 0 or 1 land hands and then have to decide if I want to lose via mana screw or double muligan. And the 1 land scenario is much worse in this set than any other. I'd rather everyone just draw the lands and spells they need and play out the game. It's rare that mana issues or muligans don't decide at least one game per match, it shouldn't be that way.

It probably shouldn't be that way, but people also shouldn't get to decide how many lands they start out with, and there shouldn't be a standard for how many lands you start out with either. Everything should be statistical so that deck building influences the outcome but isn't a garuntee of anything. That's Magic.


What bothers me most about MTGO is the 25/25 clock, it used to be 30/30 and I liked that better. MTGO requires a lot of clicking, limited creates a lot of complex board and hand states, and limited also has the potential for grindy games. I don't think I've lost to time in a long while, I've gotten really good as using the F keys to manage time well, but I've had a good number of opponent's lose to time, whether directly or indirectly (rushing to save time).

I hear you Falcon. I drafted online the other day and I thought I had a very solid deck and ended up with circumstances very similar to yours. Feel free to complain. In fact, we ought to have a thread specifically dedicated to complaining about being screwed by the Magic gods in one way or another.


how bout you suck it in. screw happens in magic, deal with it.
Complaining about complaints? That's pretty meta, dude.
Ugh, I got mana screwed all night last night. I cracked three shocklands (Golgari, Rakdos, and Izzet), but didn't have enough creatures for any 3-color combination and not enough fixing for 4-color combos. I started with a Junk deck since all my white sources only needed one W to be cast (I had Centaur's Herald, two Centaur Healers, two Common Bonds, and a Wayfaring Temple). Lost match one to a Jund deck bc I never drew a plains. Then switched to Jund and dominated my second match... only to lose my third match to an undefeated player bc I never drew a mountain. Love them 11-person sealed pods :P

In retrospect, I probably should've gone RUB, but it was still one of the worst pools I've had for limited playability, but pretty friggin' awesome for getting shocklands. I pulled the rares and the Izzet keyrune from the pool and gave the rest to the store, so I don't have the decklist. I remember my rares:

Overgrown Tomb
Blood Crypt
Steam Vents
Jarad's Orders
Pithing Needle
Ultradumb Hellkite
Wayfaring Temple (Foil)

Then I bought some "feel better" packs, and cracked an Abrupt Decay, another Overgrown Tomb, and a Temple Garden. 9 packs and 5 shocklands? Sure, I'll take it.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

Online: Opening hand is 3 lands. I cast a turn 2 Grisly Salvage, hitting 5 nonlands. Next 7 cards are all non-lands. 

I hate when it happens, but I'll try to laugh it off and call is a day. If I win a lot and majority of my loses come from screws, so be it.  
The mage formerly known as kedi. Team GFG - Goons From Ghana - Playing sweet decks since 2010 1:31 AM Nighthavk_: I'm actually playing B/r zombies 1:31 AM Battle7: nice 1:31 AM Nighthavk_: yeah it's pretty sweet really 1:31 AM Battle7: playing esper tokens 1:32 AM Nighthavk_: I like that deck 1:32 AM Battle7: it's sweet
Is it bad that I was reading MaRo's newest MM article and when reading Design Principle #7 I couldn't help but think of this thread and Bobus's thread on wanting to change the way mulligans work?

Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.

I've seen angels fall from blinding heights. But you yourself are nothing so divine. Just next in line.

191752181 wrote:
All I'm saying is, I don't really see how she goes around petrifying swords and boots and especially mirrors. How the heck does she beat a Panoptic Mirror? It makes no sense for artifacts either. Or enchantments, for that matter. "Well, you see, Jimmy cast this spell to flood the mountain, but then the gorgon just looked at the water really hard and it went away."
Is it bad that I was reading MaRo's newest MM article and when reading Design Principle #7 I couldn't help but think of this thread and Bobus's thread on wanting to change the way mulligans work?



Yes it's bad because it doesn't make sense. When specific cards are complained about it is because they are too good and on the wrong side of the board. If a card is too weak it doesn't get drafted or if it does, it doesn't make the final cut so I never see it to think about it.
Land system is retarded anyway. Best way to go about would be to have no lands, and each turn, you can exile a card from your hand to make a land 'token' that can produce said card's manas. This would seperate the good players from the bad ones greatly
The mage formerly known as kedi. Team GFG - Goons From Ghana - Playing sweet decks since 2010 1:31 AM Nighthavk_: I'm actually playing B/r zombies 1:31 AM Battle7: nice 1:31 AM Nighthavk_: yeah it's pretty sweet really 1:31 AM Battle7: playing esper tokens 1:32 AM Nighthavk_: I like that deck 1:32 AM Battle7: it's sweet
Land system is retarded anyway. Best way to go about would be to have no lands, and each turn, you can exile a card from your hand to make a land 'token' that can produce said card's manas. This would seperate the good players from the bad ones greatly



You'd also be playing a completely different game.
Land system is retarded anyway. Best way to go about would be to have no lands, and each turn, you can exile a card from your hand to make a land 'token' that can produce said card's manas. This would seperate the good players from the bad ones greatly



You'd also be playing a completely different game.



True, the question remains as to whether that game would be better or worse than the current one. On the one hand, I like that there is no guarentee you'll be able to play a 6 drop on turn 6, but I also dislike that there is no guarentee you'll be able to play it on turn 15 either. Or any cards for that matter. If would be helpful if there was some way to limit extreme mana variance without eliminating mana variance entirely.