Quick ? Can you use Telekinesis to catch or deflect incoming Missile fire?

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Quick ?  Can you use Telekinesis to catch or deflect incoming Missile fire? if the target held it's initiative and could activate it's power as a free action?
nothing in the rules says you can and nothing says you can't.  So this would actually be a DM fiat question, ergo ask your DM to see if he/she is ok with it.  Don't forget though that the DM is allowed to limit how many free actions per turn you are allowed to make.  Meaning if there's 10 arrows flying at you, he could allow you to roll an attack on say 2 or 3 of them to see if you deflect but not all of them since you ran out of free actions.  Anyway I wouldn't say no simply because of the Rule of Cool(TM) which I use to allow things that should not normally work because they are awesome or involve fun roleplay.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

nothing in the rules says you can and nothing says you can't.  So this would actually be a DM fiat question, ergo ask your DM to see if he/she is ok with it.  Don't forget though that the DM is allowed to limit how many free actions per turn you are allowed to make.  Meaning if there's 10 arrows flying at you, he could allow you to roll an attack on say 2 or 3 of them to see if you deflect but not all of them since you ran out of free actions.  Anyway I wouldn't say no simply because of the Rule of Cool(TM) which I use to allow things that should not normally work because they are awesome or involve fun roleplay.

thanks for your quick reply. Ever heard of it being used that way?
Like I said best to ask your DM, it won't matter if I have or not if your DM says no. hehe.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

I never heard it used that way.

Forceful Push
targets one creature and its at the DM's discretion wether a power can target an object or not. (RC 105)

Also, its a non-Triggered Free action, and the Free action rules don't really say they can be taken during an ongoing attack, in a manner to Interrupt it and deflect the missile before it lands and deal damage.

FWIW the Developpers also said you can't take Free actions during other actions unless they are Triggered actions when asked about specifically using a Dwarven Armor Healig Power as a Free action during an incoming attack in a PodcastWink

So as Noctaem said, check with your DM first because if he decides it doesn't fly at his table it won't matter.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Also, its a non-Triggered Free action, and the Free action rules don't really say they can be taken during an ongoing attack, in a manner to Interrupt it and deflect the missile before it lands and deal damage.

Yes, they do. You can take free actions whenever you want to.
Free actions don't say you can take then whenever you want, nor does they say you can take them during other actions to interrupt attacks, they say you can take them during your or another combatant’s turn.

RC 194 Free Actions: Free actions take almost no time or effort. You can take as many free actions as you want during your or another combatant’s turn.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Free actions don't say you can take then whenever you want, nor does they say you can take them during other actions to interrupt attacks, they say you can take them during your or another combatant’s turn.

RC 194 Free Actions: Free actions take almost no time or effort. You can take as many free actions as you want during your or another combatant’s turn.


Exept in the numerous examples where /gasp, it says you can. You're wrong. Live with it.
While there may be some game elements that specifically trump the general rules on Free actions, Forceful Push just isn't one of them.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Free actions don't say you can take then whenever you want, nor do they say you can take them during other actions to interrupt attacks

Except in the examples where it says you can.

(Note: I edited your post for clarity. Correct me if I altered your intent)

Wasn't it stated that a free action taken during someone else's turn acts as a reaction unless acting as an interrupt is the only way the free action could do anything.
(Note: I edited your post for clarity. Correct me if I altered your intent)


Well, since part of the intent was to remind Plague he is knowingly lying about what the rules actually say, yeah, you did.

@Plauge: That would be all the game elements that are non-triggered free actions since you can take free actions whenever you want, so yeah Forceful Push qualifies.

@Mirtek: Only applies to triggered free actions. We are discussing non-triggered free actions, which you can take whenever you want.
Wasn't it stated that a free action taken during someone else's turn acts as a reaction unless acting as an interrupt is the only way the free action could do anything.

RC p.197: "If an effect has a Trigger and is neither an Immediate Action nor an Opportunity Action, assume that it behaves like an immediate Reaction, waiting for its Trigger to resolves. However, ignore this guideline when the effect has to interrupt its Trigger to function."

I believe they are debating non-triggered free actions though.
(Arr... ninja'd)

We are discussing non-triggered free actions, which you can take whenever you want.

Would you allow them to act like interrupts?
Would you allow them to act like interrupts?

Kind of a nonsense question. Interrupts can invalidate their trigger and, if they do, the entire triggering action is lost. That is significantly different from being allowed to take a free action whenever you want. They can't invalidate anything, anything that has already happened when you take the free action has happened.

But there are plenty of ways that things that aren't interrupts can hamper actions/choices/etc. Nearly all of those methods work with non-triggered free actions.
@Alcestis: Game elements that specifically trump the general rules on Free actions would not be any non-triggered Free actions, it would be Free actions that specifically say they can be taken during other actions ex. Reload (free)

I thought you were saying you could use Forceful Push when an enemy attacks you to Slide him out of reach and invalidate the attack on you, thus interrupt it, or in this case discussed by the OP, delfect a missile out of trajectory to cause a miss on your after it has launched, but before it landed, also interrupting the attack ?

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Interrupts can invalidate their trigger and, if they do, the entire triggering action is lost. That is significantly different from being allowed to take a free action whenever you want.

You said "whenever", which semantically might include 'when something occurs, but before that something finishes' (i.e. similar to "An immediate interrupt jumps in when its trigger occurs, taking place before the trigger finishes"). I was merely establishing your limits to "whenever".

@Alcestis: Game elements that specifically trump the general rules on Free actions would not be any non-triggered Free actions, it would be Free actions that specifically say they can be taken during other actions ex. Reload (free)

I thought you were saying you could use Forceful Push when an enemy attacks you to Slide him out of reach and invalidate the attack on you, thus interrupt it, or in this case discussed by the OP, delfect a missile out of trajectory to cause a miss on your after it has launched, but before it landed, also interrupting the attack ?

Except SvG requires explication. There is no explication, in any of those elements, because the rule is that you can take free actions in the middle of other actions and so there doesn't need to be. So either you break dozens of game elements and ignore the rules, or you're wrong. Mmmm, tough call. Gonna have to go with you're wrong and you actually do have to listen to the rules.

Was that the question? No. Did I say that? No. Reading helps you not fail to understand things and make wrong statements, should try it.

@mvincent: Even if you allowed that, and an argument could be made, it still wouldn't be an interrupt. You'd merely invalidate the trigger, you wouldn't lose the entire action. That is a very important distinction.
By "break dozens of game elements", Alcistis means "characters at my tables do it, and it would make our characters less overpowered if we were unable to do it."

There's plenty of things in the game that do nothing due to rules changes, so you can either pretend they still work and move on with your life, follow the new rules to the letter and have a handful of things that don't work, or cheat and have your version of the rules allow for those things and "dozens" of other things become broken.

Or, as we say, Expect Table Variation.

(fwiw, I wouldn't allow it at my tables, because not only doesn't it work, it's not supposed to work)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
No, I meant breaks dozens of game elements, because that is what it does. ^.^ Starting with returning magical thrown weapons for multi-attacks being uncatchable as the obvious example, but there are quite a lot of them. Unless you think being allowed to do things the rules say you can do is somehow "overpowered." Which is an asinine argument, btw, whether something is overpowered or not has no bearing on what the rules are. And the rules for non-triggered free actions have never been changed, except for the one caveat about attack powers, so what you said makes no sense.

It is interesting you'd play by a houserule which breaks dozens of game elements. Thanks for sharing? Do you think that is somehow relevant....?
Plague, we've presented you the rule that says you can use free actions:

     Free Action: A creature can take free actions on its own or anyone else’s turn. Because most free actions require at least a small amount of time, the DM can restrict the number of free actions a creature can take during a round.

Published in Rules Compendium, page(s) 28.


This is the general rule.  If you disagree that this is the general rule...then I'm not entirely sure why you'd do that, and you'd have to explain.


The question you then ask to adjudicate the rules are, then:


Is it my turn?  Y/N


Is it anyone else's turn?  Y/N


The answer to the presented question is Yes to the second one.  Ok, so the general rule says you can use a free action during the circumstance presented.  We then state that yes, the general rule applies, but is there anything specific?


And the answer is no.  Unless you can point to an actual rule, in the actual text of the game, that indicates an exception to that general rule, then the general rule stands.  And there is nothing you have presented thus far that prevents it.  The power itself does not need to provide an exception, because the general rule is applying.


D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
While the Free action rule say you can take Free actions on your turn and other combattant's turn and take as many as you want (at the DM's discretion), it doesn't say you can take Free actions during an attack and interrupt actions with them. Even the Devs themselves admitted that it was breaking some game elements.

So to resume:  (The two statement below are 100% true and easily verifiable)

RAW Free actions doesn't say they can be taken during an attack  (though some specific game element might)
RAI The Devs say Free actions cant be taken during an attack


Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

While the Free action rule say you can take Free actions on your turn and other combattant's turn and take as many as you want (at the DM's discretion), it doesn't say you can take Free actions during an attack and interrupt actions with them.


It doesn't have to.  Exception-based design.  An attack on another monster's turn is still another monster's turn, and the rules apply.

Yes, this means that you get into the reactions-are-really-interrupts thing, but that's another discussion.  It depends on when you evaluate the resolution of a free action, and that's something else entirely.

But you absolutely can take free actions during other actions.

To put your logic to another test, there's also no rule taht says you can take Free actions at night - would you argue that you can't?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Its not exception based design by not saying what you claim it do, its absence of evidence. Exception based design would be to say that you can take as many Free actions as you want even though actions normally have  limitations in usage frequency.

Triggered Actions are exception based design by specifically saying they can interrupt attacks for exemple. Free actions don't.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

But the general rule doesn't have the restriction you describe, in any fashion whatsoever.  How are you justifying a restriction that does not exist in the text?  Are you really claiming that the general rule, which says when you can take free actions, doesn't apply in absence of an actual exception?

Please address my question about whether you can take free actions at night.  It is not a rhetorical question.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Yes you can take Free actions at night, because actions don't concern themselves with time of the day. But in this case actions do have precedent regarding action timing though. Some actions specifically say they can interrupt and so it means an action that doesn't say so do not interrupt. Interrupt are specific actions able to jump in when actions or event occurs, taking place before they finishes.

Not because there are actions saying they can Interrupt that an action saying it can be taken on other combattant's turn can interrupt as well if it doesn't also specifically say it can.


Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Yes you can take Free actions at night, because actions don't concern themselves with time of the day. But in this case actions do have precedent regarding action timing though.


Cite a rule, please.  Because there's nothing in the rules for free actions that support your claim that I can see.  Even the "actions on your turn" rule cannot possibly, under any interpretation, apply to times when it's not your turn.

Your entire argument seems to be that other powers say things, and that means there's a general rule that they're taking exception to.  You cannot infer a general rule from specifics.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Its more the other way around. Cite the rule saying Free actions can interrupt if you claim they do ? You think the Devs would have said what they did in the Podcast if Free actions said they could Interrupt ? Yes they can be taken on yours and other combattant's turns and yes you can take as many as you want. But they just can Interrupt because they don't say they can. 

In reality:

Immediate actions say they can interrupt

Opportunity Actions say they can interrupt

Triggered Free/No action say they can interrupt 

Free actions doesn't say they can interrupt. 


[sblock]

Here's a transcription of the 4/6/2012 podcast (15 minutes in): 
From the DDI Mailbag: Just how free are free actions… specifically the free action power of the Dwarven Armor daily power?(reference Dwarven armor daily power). When a wearer is hit, can he use free action between the attack roll and damage roll? 
Mike Mearls: I believe that free actions can't take place in between things like attack roll and damage roll.
 
Jeremy Crawford: what you're getting at Mike is that in this case he could not use the power in between those two things because the power doesn't have a trigger. Basically the only powers in the game that can mess around with timing are powers with triggers, and then those triggers tell you when you get to break a rule. Because it doesn't say that, you have to use this as a discrete action; not interrupting other actions. 
Mike: So it can't take place in the middle of another action.
 
Jeremy: Exactly.
 
Rodney Thompson: That may be true specifically for this action because it's the wearer using it between the phases of another character’s actions, but how does that account for the warden? We've said in the past that at any point during a move you can use a free action to mark and then continue that move.
 
Jeremy: That’s really a DM's call because the default assumption of the system is that the warden has to do it before the move action or at the end of it. Actions don't divide each other up (later) in my campaign I have a Warden and I let him do exactly what you describe: he can interrupt himself. It’s just that by the rules: we're breaking the rules. But this is what D&D is about. (later) Early on in the process we didn't have a concept of no action. If we were going to do this power now, it wouldn't be a free action.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

How you resolve the timing of the free action is something entirely different, as I said before.  Alcestis is being consistent in stating they interrupt, it agrees with the position that immediate reactions can interrupt as well (and yes, Alcestis, I am not using the 'entire action is lost' meaning, but rather the more colloquial 'make the attack not work' meaning.  Please don't pick the nits, I'm using the terminology Plaguescarred is using).  I disagree with that premise, but there really isn't a rule that specifies how the timing of non-triggered free actions resolve.  The most straightfoward extrapolation is to apply the same rules as triggered free actions, and have non-triggered free actions resolve as reactions.  But there aren't rules that say that - it is, as I said, an extrapolation.  There aren't any rules that actually explicitly cover what it means for things to resolve, and there really should be.

But the rules do say that you can use free actions during an attack on another creature's turn.  Regardless of the impact on whatever else is going on, you simply cannot dispute this fact.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
the rules do say that you can use free actions during an attack on another creature's turn.


Rule citation please.

If Free action rules would say that, there would be no debates and n podcast from the Devs saying otherwise. Things said in the rules usually don't make up subject of debates. Only (mis)interpretation of things not said generally do. Wink

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I've stated it several times.  The general free action rule, and the absence of any specific rule that contradicts that general rule.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Free Action: A creature can take free actions on its own or anyone else’s turn. Because most free actions require at least a small amount of time, the DM can restrict the number of free actions a creature can take during a round.


Where do you read that it say that you can use free actions during an attack on another creature's turn ?

Unless you can cite a general rule saying that all actions interrupt unless they say they don't, then its more in fact that no actions interrupt unless they say they do, since the precedent is that some action say they do Wink

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

The part where it says you can use them on another creature's turn.  Are you saying that their attack is not on their turn?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Saying you can use them on another creature's turn does not equate to saying it can interrupt attack.

Not all Triggered action will interrupt necessarly even thought they can be taken on another combattant's turn for exemple. They'll interrupt because they say so.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

And again, how you resolve the free action is an entirely separate question, one for which there is no answer.

But you can use it.  What happens when you use it?  Your guess is as good as mine.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
While not what the Devs are saying, a commun ground between the two guesses would be that you can take Free actions during other actions, but not to interrupt an attack (roll and its effect) before it resolve and invalidate it. 

This would allow to talk or catch a thrown weapon between Twin Strike attacks for exemple, but not to Slide an ally out of a monster's attack's reach in a manner to invalidate it.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

If you evaluate them as reactions, and evaluate reactions as I claim the rules tell you to, then yes, you would arrive at that result.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Except that this results in treating Free actions just like Triggered actions which they aren't.

Its actually exactly the reason why the Developpers say you can't take Free actions during other actions, because the only actions that can be taken during other actions are Triggered actions only because they have Trigger.

Just like for Interrupt, unless a general rule says that all actions can be taken during other actions unless they say they don't, then its more in fact that no actions can be taken during other actions unless they say they do, since the precedent is that some action say they do. In this premise, only Triggered actions can do so.

Jeremy Crawford: what you're getting at Mike is that in this case he could not use the power in between those two things because the power doesn't have a trigger. Basically the only powers in the game that can mess around with timing are powers with triggers, and then those triggers tell you when you get to break a rule. Because it doesn't say that, you have to use this as a discrete action; not interrupting other actions.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

The actual rules don't say that, anywhere. Either stick to arguing the actual rules, which have numerous examples where he is provably wrong and his statement is idiotic, or be content with just being wrong.
Except that this results in treating Free actions just like Triggered actions which they aren't.


Why aren't they?  Why shouldn't they be?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Free actions are not Triggered actions because they don't have a Trigger. Why shouldn't they be is a good question and think they should but its irrevelant. What's revelant is what the rules for actions say (and don't say).

Free action don't say they can be taken during other actions and lacks a Trigger that Triggered Free action have that allow them to do be taken during other actions.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Free action don't say they can be taken during other actions


They also don't say they can be taken at night.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition