I think magic is pushing my friends away

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Ok the title is just a little bit of an exaggeration, but Everytime I mention an idea for a new deck, I'm not met with, "that's cool". No. People pretend to kill me, they say I'm exiled from the game of magic the gathering, or they tell me they will never play against the deck when it's not even built yet. Next thing you know, I'll be the new enemy planeswalker, and Bolas will be helping the others to take me down or something.
-Quotes from The Rebellion of the Four players- alright, first round and our leader crited on our defender. Go team. Those were, in order, my facial expressions after reading Talis's move.-Dark9174 after A slick move by the enemy swordmage (I apologize ahead of time, guys. I hit the only PC I was almost certain I'd miss. I shall join Grunn in the "I've critted on my teammate" corner of shame, now.)- TheDracon
...Ok?

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Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

Ok. Well recently I showed them my Sheoldred EDH deck and they decided they never wanted to play against it. I mean, I used it in an 8 player game once and by the end of the game no one had any land to do anything, except for me. But like, should I try and make less powerful or as they like to describe them, douchey decks?
-Quotes from The Rebellion of the Four players- alright, first round and our leader crited on our defender. Go team. Those were, in order, my facial expressions after reading Talis's move.-Dark9174 after A slick move by the enemy swordmage (I apologize ahead of time, guys. I hit the only PC I was almost certain I'd miss. I shall join Grunn in the "I've critted on my teammate" corner of shame, now.)- TheDracon
How do they not have land? Are you sac'ing/reanimating Polluted Dead?

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Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

[c]Sheoldred, whispering one
Braids, Cabal minion
Kuon, ogre ascendent[/c]

While I'm generating zombies out the butt and a bunch of other enchantments and creatures causing them to have only land left to sac. I was also considering Descent into madness going but that might be too much.
-Quotes from The Rebellion of the Four players- alright, first round and our leader crited on our defender. Go team. Those were, in order, my facial expressions after reading Talis's move.-Dark9174 after A slick move by the enemy swordmage (I apologize ahead of time, guys. I hit the only PC I was almost certain I'd miss. I shall join Grunn in the "I've critted on my teammate" corner of shame, now.)- TheDracon
I don't see how that's worse than me using Armageddon/Boom // Bust and Charmbreaker Devils.

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Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

Lol. See. I find stuff like that hilarious but if I were to pull something like that off, I'd get shot. I think it's because my deck is, You all sacrifice everything you have, I sit back and being my stuff back and occasionally take your stuff to murder you with. Swung for 5071 once, after infinite looping twice.
-Quotes from The Rebellion of the Four players- alright, first round and our leader crited on our defender. Go team. Those were, in order, my facial expressions after reading Talis's move.-Dark9174 after A slick move by the enemy swordmage (I apologize ahead of time, guys. I hit the only PC I was almost certain I'd miss. I shall join Grunn in the "I've critted on my teammate" corner of shame, now.)- TheDracon
yeah, I'd not play against that deck as well

there is nothing wrong with building a good deck, but don't build a griefing deck
proud member of the 2011 community team
I've been in your situation before. Some people who enjoy playing MtG only really enjoy certain aspects of the game. I've been a part of play groups which had an unspoken agreement not to play counterspells, WoG, or certain other strategies which were deemed to be "unfun". If a certain decklist was deemed to be "too good" then it was retired.

You're not going to change the minds of these types of players. They enjoy some things about the game but you're probably more "into" the game than they are. In all likelyhood they'd rather not play than to have to face "unfun" decklists. A few things you can do to ensure that you're having fun while playing in a group like this.

1.) make unreasonable deckbuilding restrictions on yourself - this allows you to build the best decklist possible while keeping it in line with the power level of the other decks in your group. For example I built a grip of chaos decklist one time where I attempted to maximize the use of the card. I'm sure someone could build a degenerate grip of chaos decklist but mine came out funny and it turned out to be extremely fun for everyone (until we had like 22 creatures in play and I was using gelectrode plus basilisk collar but still)
2.) Use decks that they've made, assist them in deckbuilding, or use preconstructed decklists. The big issue is that everyone needs to have a decklist of approximately equal power. That might mean your decklists being weaker but if you can increase the power of their decklists that might work also.
3.) Play to play. It's great to win but in a group like this it seems that the players are more interested in the social event that the game brings. So rather than every play being to maximize your opportunity to win the game make a point of letting the games play themselves out.

At the same time you can find the challenge you're looking for in other play groups. Maybe a local tournament or something could introduce you to some more like minded people who just want to play the most degenerate decklists they can get their hands on.
Don't be too smart to have fun
That's actually some really good ideas morticianjohn. I mean, I'm not wanting to win every time, in fact, sometimes my deck screws me over and I do lose. That's magic. I went to FNM after making a deck that was doing great against EVERYONE. I got to the tournament and couldn't draw land.

This deck I'm talking about above though, I've been told I should try it in an EDH tournament. I may get around to posting it in here if I can, but some people I've played are like, "If I was in your situation when you've won without us being able to stop you, I wouldve winner's scooped. You know you've won so there is no point in not letting the rest of us play and swinging at us with 1 million zombies."

Should I start considering things like that?
-Quotes from The Rebellion of the Four players- alright, first round and our leader crited on our defender. Go team. Those were, in order, my facial expressions after reading Talis's move.-Dark9174 after A slick move by the enemy swordmage (I apologize ahead of time, guys. I hit the only PC I was almost certain I'd miss. I shall join Grunn in the "I've critted on my teammate" corner of shame, now.)- TheDracon
Congratulations, you are officially The Threat.

Also, if there is such an imbalance between the power level of your decks and those of your buddies, try a format that levels the playing field.*

* i.e. CUBE CUBE CUBE. Build a Cube, man! An EDH one! Full of wacky overpowered jank! It's insane!
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Elemental, My Dear Watson (Rainbow Elementals)
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Or... just play nice? Don't always build a doooshy deck.

3DH4LIF3

Or show them the internet. It's a wondrous place. Maybe it'll help them to get better at building decent decks. Last time I checked, Braids didn'thave hexproof and/or indestructible. It's a friggin 2/2 and they couldn't handle it in a multiplayer game? What?


Reminds me of a player that I totally wiped the floor with. He was making fun of all those "stupid timmies" with their creature based decks and how he owned them with some Reins of Power + Natural Affinity + sacrifice outlet combo. Slow and horrible deck or maybe he's just not a good deck pilot. I proceeded to whip his behind with my casual  Proteus Staff into Sundering Titan several times. And he was complaining how unfair THAT was.

I loathe this way of thinking:
"If someone else does the ass whooping and I can't handle it then it's unfair. If I'm doing it to them and they can't handle it, then they are too scrubby to adapt."
The Weakest Link was a fun show. Early on, it's best to be really good, but later, it's best to be the worst, so everyone thinks they'll have an easy time playing against you.

That's what's known as a "political game". You have to help your friends beat each other up to survive the political game.

Praetors in general are annoying and griefy, so any praetor (except Urabrask because 1) monored EDH is horribad, and 2) "my guys have haste/your guys ETB tapped" isn't that bad) EDH deck is eliminated first. (Vorinclex and Jin-Gitaxias are primary targets for me, honestly, followed by Elesh Norn and Sheoldred.)

All colors have politics cards. I'd say are the best colors to play politics like a true despot, though.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
I'd say are the best colors to play politics like a true despot, though.



Nice irony.
It's easy to get to get to the point that you are taking things more seriously than others. It's also easy to avoid.

Try approaching your deckbuilding with a slighty different prioritization of goals.

Goal #1. Everyone at the table has fun playing the GAME.
Goal #2. Win.

It's pretty easy, and it's worked for me for a long time.
A lot of people don't realize that part of what makes a game fun is using everything it offers as a means to winning. If you do that, then the game is much more fun than just being all "casual & fun" about it, whatever that means. The argument here isn't that winning itself is fun but that playing to win is fun. Of course winning is satisfactory but that's entirely not the point. I say that because I trust the designers and developers of a game like MtG (or Streetighter or Tekken, more on that later) to deliver a balanced experience. There's almost always a solution to any given problem.

Only in the rarest of cases (e.g. cards like Balance) is there something, that you can absolutely not beat or at least it's incredibly unfair. In 99.99% of all cases abitrarilily banning cards in a casual environment (e.g. Praetors... really?), instead of just adapting to them and trying to beat them, just takes away from the nuances the game has to offer.

This is the same as someone demanding from me in Street Fighter or Tekken not to play with this or that character. Or to stop throwing Hadokens with Ryu, Ken etc. or to "not attack" opponents on the ground in Tekken. Those are integral parts of the game. It's part of what makes these games satisfying to play. Not wild button mashing. If constant Hadokens are troubling you, find a way to beat it, accept & beat the challenge instead of complaining about how unfair, when it's not. Streetfighter is not a broken game, otherwise people wouldn't play it competitively. Same with tekken. There are a several ways to get up from the ground in Tekken to respond after a knockdown. Quickroll/Techroll, rolling forwards with leap attack, rolling backwards, standing up kicking low or performing a quick kick to the shins while lying. A scrub will just refuse to learn these techniques, instead complaining about unfair attacks that will keep knocking him back down. Just use your brain, the internet or even ask your opponent, what one can do to avoid constant knock down.


Going back to MtG, the same principles apply here. And it's not even about having to get new expensive cards to answer your opponents new thread. Take Wrath of God as an example. You don't really beat it by having better creatures in your deck (helps of course, if they're indestructible or leave another guy, when they die) but by just playing smart you can beat it. Certainly not by dumping your entire hand on the table and then doing a frowny face because your opponent unfairly played WoG. You'll just have to be smarter about which creatures to deploy and and at which times, keeping some creatures in hand as a reserve, in effect making WoG less effective.

It just leads to a much more cerebral gaming experience.

Also, if I can't play with my huge big awesome creatures like the Praetors in a casual game, then where can I? I can't use the cards that I paid money for because someone else is too stuck up in his scrubby it's unfair!-attitude? not going to happen.


BUT

I will switch decks if my opponent is of low skill level, because I like a challenge much much more than facerolling my opponents (playing to win!) Off course easy facerolling is not fun. But in an MtG playgroup, casual or not, players clash again and again, getting better and better, improving their decks, knowing what their opponent can and will bring to the table.

This is not the same as me going to a store and crushing a poor newbie five times in a row with my "casual" Ravager Affinity deck, until he gives up playing magic. This is obviously stupid. But in a permanent playing group, a big part of the fun is the deck building aspect and the challenge to overcome my opponents strategies. Heck, I'll help you even with finding answers to my strategies & cards, may it be just a switch of tactics or switching cards. 

If I'm stronger than my opponents, then I expect them to strive to become better instead of me having to become worse at the game. If I am the weaker player, that's exactly what I do, no matter which game.

Just to clarify: If someone doesn't have the time or resources to play magic often, or even if it is friend, who just has other hobbies and interests and wants to play his one deck in a game of magic once a month or so, then of course it's good practice to level the playing field by playing a weaker deck. I cannot expect from a person like that to have this drive to improve at MtG and this is totally fine.

But the moment somebody starts getting presumptions about which strategies are to be considered fair and which aren't, then that means this player has crossed the line from "I don't care about this game so much and only want to play once in a while." into "I feel strongly about this game and want to master it." That's also exactly the moment where you're expected to strive to get better at the game instead of whining about preators or whichever cards it is that you don't like.

Making a game your hobby and then imposing non-official house bans on other players cards, because you're mentally too lazy to deal with it... is just bad sportsmanship. You're just trying to shape the rules of the game in a way that makes you win more often. If you do that, then YOU are the one who enjoys winning more than the actual process of playing to win the game. 
I'd say are the best colors to play politics like a true despot, though.



Nice irony.



Vichy France? But you can institute poll taxes and show a little mercy. You can bribe them into attacking others. You can even use Oblivion Ring to keep a greater threat at bay, forcing them to keep you alive until that guy's dealt with.

The Vows are really good because they force your opponent to not attack you.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Nah, France is cool. I was thinking more of the U.S. the -wedge has often been associated with the U.S. I think. Lightning Angel, wasn't she called Miss America or something like that?
Nah, France is cool. I was thinking more of the U.S. the -wedge has often been associated with the U.S. I think. Lightning Angel, wasn't she called Miss America or something like that?



I was referring to Vichy France, though. You are familiar with mid-20th-century history, right?
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
I was referring to Vichy France, though. You are familiar with mid-20th-century history, right?



I wasn't aware of the name Vichy. I'm German so I know stuff about WWII (duh) but didn't know they were called Vichy France/regime.

Kinda embarrassing really.
Lightning Angel, wasn't she called Miss America or something like that?


Miss America, yes.

A lot of countries have red, white & blue flags. The US, UK, Australia, France, Iceland, Russia, Netherlands, etc.

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Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

Lightning Angel, wasn't she called Miss America or something like that?


Miss America, yes.

A lot of countries have red, white & blue flags. The US, UK, Australia, France, Iceland, Russia, Netherlands, etc.


But we had it first. That's the important thing. 
Lightning Angel, wasn't she called Miss America or something like that?


Miss America, yes.

A lot of countries have red, white & blue flags. The US, UK, Australia, France, Iceland, Russia, Netherlands, etc.


But we had it first. That's the important thing. 


The American flag pre-dates the British?

Sure, why not?

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Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

Lightning Angel, wasn't she called Miss America or something like that?


Miss America, yes.

A lot of countries have red, white & blue flags. The US, UK, Australia, France, Iceland, Russia, Netherlands, etc.


But we had it first. That's the important thing. 


The American flag pre-dates the British?

Sure, why not?


Yup, by a long shot. 
But we had it first. That's the important thing. 

Who's "we"? Definitely not the US...

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.



I just did a little digging around. I was rather surprised to find that the Union Jack was not officially adopted until 1801, though it has roots in flags going back to the late 1600's. This really surprised me as the flag of my hometown is a recreation (based upon textual descriptions) of its original (colonial era) flag. It has a Union Jack dominating the upper left corner.

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Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

Can we get back on topic, though? It makes me a sad panda that I devoted so much effort into getting my point acroos in my lengthy earlier posts and now we're talking about Flags that have in them.
Can we get back on topic, though? It makes me a sad panda that I devoted so much effort into getting my point acroos in my lengthy earlier posts and now we're talking about Flags that have in them.


Him? He's a panda! You're a panda! What are you going to do, big guy, sit on me?

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Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.



I just did a little digging around. I was rather surprised to find that the Union Jack was not officially adopted until 1801, though it has roots in flags going back to the late 1600's. This really surprised me as the flag of my hometown is a recreation (based upon textual descriptions) of its original (colonial era) flag. It has a Union Jack dominating the upper left corner.


Just to show you how amazing America is. 

In all seriousness I really enjoy flag designs and don't really like the US flag. It's pretty boring.  
Kiro, stop with the off-topic, we are talking about flags here!

You missed... actually you dismissed a valuable point of view on magic. I have decks that win at turn 1-2-3, I have decks that almost never win because they are super slow/bad/hilarious to play, but I sure as hell like playing them all. Winning might be everything to you, but it's not for everyone. I have a deck that I called "coins", a large percentage of the cards have "flip a coin" effect. It loses 95% of the time (if not more than that) and I still really enjoy playing it.

I love trolls Dont hate me because I'm blunt and you cannot handle it
I have a deck that I called "coins", a large percentage of the cards have "flip a coin" effect. It loses 95% of the time (if not more than that) and I still really enjoy playing it.


You'd think it'd at least manage a 50/50 split, y'know?

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Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.



I just did a little digging around. I was rather surprised to find that the Union Jack was not officially adopted until 1801, though it has roots in flags going back to the late 1600's. This really surprised me as the flag of my hometown is a recreation (based upon textual descriptions) of its original (colonial era) flag. It has a Union Jack dominating the upper left corner.


Just to show you how amazing America is. 

In all seriousness I really enjoy flag designs and don't really like the US flag. It's pretty boring.  


It's not that bad. Compare to France, Italy, Russia, Netherlands, Germany... 3 colored stripes? That's it?

Scope my YouTube channel!

Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

'merica


Fixed.

I use him in EDH all the time.

Scope my YouTube channel!

Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

'merica


Fixed.

I use him in EDH all the time.



He's even showing 13 toes. 
Thanks for rerailing moimoi!


I thought I made if perfectly clear, though, that winning of all things, is NOT everything to me. That was the entire point of my posts.

I can play hours and hours and hours of streetfighter and have a win-lose ration of 10% to 90% and I would still enjoy myself. I'm not even making this up.


I'm not saying that you shouldn't play weak decks. I'm saying that you shouldn't be forced to play weak decks. I like coin flipping decks. Krark's thumb, Karplusan Minotaur, Fiery Gambit etc. I HAVE that deck. I'm just not going to have a random scrub tell me that Fiery Gambit is somehow overpowered because it now has a 43% Chance to actually do something worthwhile with Krark's Thumb out, while I'm holding them off with a rigged-in-my-favor 75% Planar Chaos.

If I play a weak deck, then it's a self imposed challenge. I'm saying "I'm going to win the game with THIS deck." or at least "I'm going cause as much havoc as possible before I go down." I'll still be playing to win. But I'm the one who choses which cards and which strategies I want to play with.
So at what point do you decide that your "skill" is higher than everyone else's and you need to dumb things down to play so you still have a group to play with next week, or how long you play with a group before you leave in search a new comparatively skilled group? Do you make changes in your playing style when you see that everyone is miserable, even if they are not asking you to change anything yet visibly annoyed and afraid to say anything, yet still inviting you to the next game?
I'm not 100% sure that I understand what you're asking (or if you're even talking to me). I'll respond anyway.

Off course I adjust my playing style when I see that my deck is too strong and I'm not getting a real challenge. If my opponent is not having fun, I'm not having fun.

But when and how I will adjust the strength of the deck that I'm using wholly depends on the players in that group. How much time/money/effort can or do they want to invest into MtG? The more they invest, the more ruthless I will become, playing MtG on a comparatively cut throat level. If a deck happens to be much too strong and it's nothing that my opponent can mend right away by replacing a few cards, then I'll just switch decks to something that seems more appropriate. If they CAN do something about it then they better do something about it instead of saying "strategy x is lame." It's not. Maybe you should really just run Qasali Pridemage in your if you keep having trouble with my janky Proteus Staff deck? I'm not playing TEPS you know.

Off course asking nicely "could you not play that deck? It's such a bad matchup for my deck?" will go a long way. Better then telling me that my Parallax Tide + Stifle deck, which takes ages to set up correctly is unfair and everything in it needs to be banned.

The difficulty that people have grasping the concept of rising to a challenge and playing to win, befuddles me. I can't be the only person in the world, who doesn't mind losing round after round in any game. As long as I'm playing to win and there's a chance that I can, then I'm having fun. I've played hours and hours of Tekken, Soul Calibur, Street Fighter etc against opponents who were much stronger than me and I enjoyed the little victories (e.g. When you manage to win at least one round in a 2 best out of 3 match) all the while getting better at the game.

And it's really not like I never got my ass handed to me in magic! I could go to any MtG store and 50% of the players will trounce me easily. Which is exactly what happened last time I went to an FNM in Japan with my very budget -deck. I eeked out a win against a few players with current standard decks though and that was incredibly rewarding.


I just did a little digging around. I was rather surprised to find that the Union Jack was not officially adopted until 1801, though it has roots in flags going back to the late 1600's. This really surprised me as the flag of my hometown is a recreation (based upon textual descriptions) of its original (colonial era) flag. It has a Union Jack dominating the upper left corner.


Just to show you how amazing America is. 

In all seriousness I really enjoy flag designs and don't really like the US flag. It's pretty boring.  


It's not that bad. Compare to France, Italy, Russia, Netherlands, Germany... 3 colored stripes? That's it?


True. Those are quite boring too. I do like simple geometric flags but those are lame. 
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