Suggestions for public review: D&D Next

I have to say that the pricing of magic is soooooooo far askew. There should never be a way for a person to make a character that starts with a +2 long sword and still have enough money to buy armor and equipment. Furthermore, if that is the price for a +2 item, how much are you giving away +1 items for. Why would anyone ever need to take feats and training if they can simply run down the street and buy a few magic items to make up the difference with absolutely no training whatsoever.


That being said, I understand the problems that you are having in building a version of D&D that will suite both the classic players as well as those who like the newer versions. I would like to make a proposal and say that you bring back box sets for game worlds. Consider a spectrum of prime material planes infinitely arrayed with different variations of magic. Thus the people that like the Monty Python hack and slash campaigns can have a world that has more magic, greater stats and so on. (Ex. Ravenloft and Birthright) The role players could play in worlds that would have moderate magic and stats but a grand fleshing of storyline, background and roleplayability. (Ex. Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk) You could even have a couple of specialty realms for extremes. (Ex. Dark Sun, Planescape and Spell Jammer) Considering the infinite prime material planes it would be easy to say that characters are prohibited from finding their way into the other individual realms and even those who have the power to do so will just shift through the infinite realms similar to their home plane. In short, the god character players will never meet the characters from weaker realms. Player builds could differ from realm to realm, as could gods and demigods. 

I has already been established in several other threads that the games economy needs to be changed. Magic Plate costs the same as regular Plate (or less). I'm sure the devs are well aware of this by now.
It's not that the costs are too low, it's that there are costs at all. That should NEVER happen, except in a world unbelievably saturated in magic...like even moreso than Forgotten Realms. Yes, if there's magic items there will be a trade in them, but since we're talking about a largely medieval economy it should be among royalty and nobels only, and more secretative than drug or slave markets. No one else should have a chance of affording it. Realistically a full strength healing potion should cost what a peasant family makes in a year.

I realize this is personal opinion, but it's a vital one in that the game makes certain assumptions regarding what characters will have access to at given levels (ie power level). I realize they've said that's not true, but it's ALWAYS true. You simply can't avoid it. Unless you require all modules and encounter designs be based upon core 4 humans with no backgrounds/specialties/themes or items. In doing so you make them useless to people who play higher power levels as they'd have to double or triple the numbers to have an equal challenge. This is another situation where you either have everything modular, or you release entirely separate games. One game cannot fit all playstyles.

For those of us who play games where characters can't even afford plate until 6-10th level introduction of this level of magic is a game breaker.

I see the monetary value of an item as a measure of its power. This makes it easy for me to give my characters balanced treasure. Magic items having value lets your evaluate a characters net worth, and that allows me to keep anyone from getting too far ahead or behind. Because of this, the value of magic items is very useful to me, even if no one in my campaign will ever sell or purchase a magic item.

I want/need magic items to have a value and that value needs to be a proper representation of that items power.

Also, your approach of magic items not having a listed value is very narrow and doesn't allow for players and DMs that want a magic shop. It is very easy for you to disallow buying/selling magic items in your campaign. Its stupidly hard for a DM to come up with his own prices for the amount of magic items that might be in a game. There is no reason to do it the hard way.

Using money as a stand-in for power has never worked very well.  If such a metric for power is warranted, then we can have one, but it shouldn't be gold.  Call it experience points, power value, whatever, but don't tie it to the monetary economy.  Otherwise you end up with the ridiculous situation of trying to sell your hand-me-down +5 magic sword and feeding an entire nation for a year.

There should be some rules governing how one acquires such items, including purchasing them, but that should not be the metric by which they're ranked in power.

If there's one thing a new approach to items could give us, it's destroying the idea that gold is part of adventuring progression.  You do that, and gold is just XP by another name.  Sure, we should get treasure for our monster-slaying, but don't tie it to expected character power progression.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I would like to make a proposal and say that you bring back box sets for game worlds. Consider a spectrum of prime material planes infinitely arrayed with different variations of magic. Thus the people that like the Monty Python hack and slash campaigns can have a world that has more magic, greater stats and so on. (Ex. Ravenloft and Birthright) The role players could play in worlds that would have moderate magic and stats but a grand fleshing of storyline, background and roleplayability. (Ex. Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk) You could even have a couple of specialty realms for extremes. (Ex. Dark Sun, Planescape and Spell Jammer)


Boxed sets only work if there's something that needs to be boxed, otherwise a good hardcover is more durable and does the job. 
They've announced that they plan to bring back PDfs sometime next year, so all the old campaign settings will eventually be available again digitally. That might be the best solution. Publishing so many campaign settings is a pretty big mistake as there's a lot of niche content out there. 

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As for the "Cash for Magic Items" deal goes I do believe that the magic items must have a designated cash value, though I don't agree to finding them in stores or laying around as common items. But if I have a +3 sword and I get a +1 sword in a dungeon I am not simply going to toss it out or throw it in a lake. I want to trade, sell or alter the item to suit my needs. Thus a value. I think that such things should be rare indeed. The old 2nd edition rules for how these items are made gave it an intrengent value. The 4th edition rules for Enchant Magic Items sucked and made magic cheap. 

As far as the box sets, I agree that a digital version is great so long as it is done right. I miss the maps that show how large an area is. Going from the Summer Queen's castle to the Winter Keep should actually have meaning. If I want to build a castle near a lake I don't want someone saying, "Uh... OK, it is by a lake." I want to check out who my neighbors are, how far, land formations and historical facts. PRINTABLE MAPS!
As for the "Cash for Magic Items" deal goes I do believe that the magic items must have a designated cash value, though I don't agree to finding them in stores or laying around as common items.



I dunno, the moment you give them an intrinsic set value, that basically means they're common enough to be sold.

Priceless objects don't have a set value. Even in the real world, things like cars and houses don't have a set value, when you sell one, you can expect haggling, offers and counteroffers. There's a general price range, but it fluctuates with demand.

I figure magic items should be similar.
I much prefer magic items as rare and invaluable things that take so much work and effort to find or create that you won't ever see shops, and the average person could never afford them in the first place. However, that sort of thing is really campaign specific, and it's all down to the DM's style. There should be a pricing scheme so that DM's who want them to be sellable will know how to price them. It's easy enough for DM's to decide not to use it in their games if they don't want to, but there does need to be support for those who do want it.
I think they should be given a value in gold and a value in experience points.  Gold for those who want to have magic items more common, like say Eberron.  The experience points so it is easy for the DM to know what the capabilities of the party are on top of their levels.  So a 3rd level Fighter with a +1 Longsword (the magic sword having an experience value of 150) would have the 150 added onto his total experience up to that point.  Might be too much book keeping thought but something along those lines.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

The only problem with "value on magic items" is that this information is accessible to the players because after 2nd edition the DM guide became part of the rule book for the players.  Suddenly they are openning it up and using it as if it was there's to use.  This notion always really bothered me.  The DM guide is very specific about who its for.  There is one book for players and one book for DM's.  There should be absolutly ZERO reason for players to have to look at the DM guide and magic items should be in that book.  As far as the players are concerned the only magic items that exist are the ones they find in the course of the game.

As for setting a value for the DM, I do think this is important because as a DM you need a gauge.  Your going to put something into the game that may fall into the players hands you need to know what it does, how much its worth etc...  Players will eventually appraise items within the confines of the gameworld and that appraisal has to be based on something otherwise its very hard for the DM to manage.  This information however like anything should go through a DM filter and of course through the narrative process of the setting.  Some people like game worlds where magic shops are a dime a dozen others want magic items to be rare and a real prize when discovered with incalcuable value.  The system needs to support both, but they are at odds with each other... hence you put it in the DM guide and put the words OPTIONAL with the subtext "consult your DM".

"Edition wars like all debates exist because people like debates"

I think they should be given a value in gold and a value in experience points.  Gold for those who want to have magic items more common, like say Eberron.  The experience points so it is easy for the DM to know what the capabilities of the party are on top of their levels.  So a 3rd level Fighter with a +1 Longsword (the magic sword having an experience value of 150) would have the 150 added onto his total experience up to that point.  Might be too much book keeping thought but something along those lines.

I like this idea. I already have a spreadsheet to calculate the various things I put into the session's xp for the night, and the players don't know what their current xp is. They're told (in game terms) when they're ready for training. Having a "soft" CXP shouldn't be that difficult to add to everything else, and would help me gauge the challenges to put into the next run.

In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.

The only problem with "value on magic items" is that this information is accessible to the players because after 2nd edition the DM guide became part of the rule book for the players.  Suddenly they are openning it up and using it as if it was there's to use.  This notion always really bothered me.  The DM guide is very specific about who its for.  There is one book for players and one book for DM's.  There should be absolutly ZERO reason for players to have to look at the DM guide and magic items should be in that book.  As far as the players are concerned the only magic items that exist are the ones they find in the course of the game.

As for setting a value for the DM, I do think this is important because as a DM you need a gauge.  Your going to put something into the game that may fall into the players hands you need to know what it does, how much its worth etc...  Players will eventually appraise items within the confines of the gameworld and that appraisal has to be based on something otherwise its very hard for the DM to manage.  This information however like anything should go through a DM filter and of course through the narrative process of the setting.  Some people like game worlds where magic shops are a dime a dozen others want magic items to be rare and a real prize when discovered with incalcuable value.  The system needs to support both, but they are at odds with each other... hence you put it in the DM guide and put the words OPTIONAL with the subtext "consult your DM".


I personally believe that there are several valid reasons a player may want to read through the DM Guide.  First a player may want to take up the mantle of DM eventually.  I believe that the more people willing to be DMs the better the hobby of D&D will be overall.  Also I'm sure that many would just be curious and want a deeper knowledge of the inner workings of the game.  I don't really see that as a bad thing, you of course can feel differently.

As far as magic items in the GM Guide only, if there are ways for PCs to make magical items (which there may or may not be) then IMO they should be in the Player's Handbook as well.  I guess they could go with the 3.5 route and just mention that magic items could be made in the Player's Handbook, along with the process for doing so and still have the magic items in the DMG.  I do believe that the magic item rules should be an optional module, so please don't burn me as a heretic ;P.
It's not that the costs are too low, it's that there are costs at all. That should NEVER happen, except in a world unbelievably saturated in magic...like even more so than Forgotten Realms. Yes, if there's magic items there will be a trade in them, but since we're talking about a largely medieval economy it should be among royalty and nobles only, and more secretive than drug or slave markets. No one else should have a chance of affording it. Realistically a full strength healing potion should cost what a peasant family makes in a year.

I realize this is personal opinion, but it's a vital one in that the game makes certain assumptions regarding what characters will have access to at given levels (ie power level). I realize they've said that's not true, but it's ALWAYS true. You simply can't avoid it. Unless you require all modules and encounter designs be based upon core 4 humans with no backgrounds/specialties/themes or items. In doing so you make them useless to people who play higher power levels as they'd have to double or triple the numbers to have an equal challenge. This is another situation where you either have everything modular, or you release entirely separate games. One game cannot fit all play styles.

For those of us who play games where characters can't even afford plate until 6-10th level introduction of this level of magic is a game breaker.



I would say they need to have default prices because there are official campaign worlds where magic marts on every corner is the norm.

I will say they need to multiply all the prices by 10 or more though. The cheapest most common magic item that is useful to an adventurer needs to be about 1000gp more than the most expensive mundane item. So +1 Plate needs to be like 5k or higher...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The only problem with "value on magic items" is that this information is accessible to the players because after 2nd edition the DM guide became part of the rule book for the players.  Suddenly they are openning it up and using it as if it was there's to use.  This notion always really bothered me.  The DM guide is very specific about who its for.  There is one book for players and one book for DM's.  There should be absolutly ZERO reason for players to have to look at the DM guide and magic items should be in that book.  As far as the players are concerned the only magic items that exist are the ones they find in the course of the game.



Except many players are also DMs....  So yeah, they will read the DMG.  And the MMs, etc.

And if your a 1e player?  You need to read the DMG!  Because that's where you find the To Hit/Saves charts!  (not to mention that's where you also learn the rules of the game from....)  

Except many players are also DMs....  So yeah, they will read the DMG.  And the MMs, etc.




Im speaking of course to the approach not the act.  I don't care who reads the DM guide, but the difference between 1st and 2nd DM guides and the 3rd and 4th edition DM guides was that in 2nd edition there was no reason for a player to be looking at it during the game, everything they need as a player is in the players handbook.  By 3rd and 4th edition, owning a DM guide was practically manditory for players, in particular in 3rd edition where feats and rules where referenced in the players guide that said "hey look in this other rule book called the DM guide for the rules on how this works".  


Oh and for the 1st edition.  No, players didn't need to know anything that was in the DM guide.  That was the point.  Focus the players on the story and their character, not on "how to run the game", running the game was the responsibility of the DM.  It was intentional.

"Edition wars like all debates exist because people like debates"

The only way I've ever seen anywhere that's successfully stopped players from assuming they get magic items at certain points is by not assigning value to them at all. I'm not sure that's very "spirit of D&D" or whatever but basically listing the stuff and letting the people at the table figure it out is better because the instant you put a gold value on something it creates a perception that it can be bought. Even the most hardcore rp oriented table will have that perception.


The other strategy that kept players from expecting magic items to fall into their laps is to make them cost xp to use. Like attunement only much, much more costly. Again, not really gonna happen in D&D.



I don't buy that magic items aren't going to be assumed with regard to monster design, either. The net result of that will be the DM will have to throw monsters at a magically endowed party that aren't designed for their level and then lower the XP rewards so people don't just gain a level every fight. Items that give players options and bonuses will inevitably figure into encounter design.

I've only watched (now three) pannels on next....

gen-con "players" pannel
Gen-con "DM's" pannel

and last week

PAX future of D&D

it was on one of those, but damn I'm not going to re-watch 6hrs of footage to find it...
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
Did I miss something? The pdf I have with magic items states:

1- there is no guarantee that adventurers will find magic items
2- unless the DM decides otherwise, magic items are so rare there is no market for them.

 
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Did I miss something? The pdf I have with magic items states:

1- there is no guarantee that adventurers will find magic items
2- unless the DM decides otherwise, magic items are so rare there is no market for them.

 



Yes, you missed the Eberron campaign setting where magic marts are on every corner, and Forgotten Realms where magic is common...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
If you've got players that expect to be able to buy anything within their cost range just because they can afford it, then I'm afraid I just can't help you. You may want to avoid letting your players read the magic item section if that's the case. I use the price as a rough guideline for what players could afford if- hypothetically- they found a person willing to sell a magic item. The rarity of the magic item, in my campaign, plays a big role in the availibility of the item. Common items are likely purchasable in small numbers at large markets, Uncommon items must be sought for before purchase, Rare items likely require long-distance travel to find a seller, Very Rare items are probably only sold in foreign countries, and thus the Players would not have access to them until they have access to those countries. Legendary items almost certainly can't be bought, and Artifacts are part of the campaign and do not belong in a randomly-generated treasure hoard or a magic-item market. 
Also, about buying +2 items at character creation, the price of a +1 is 100-500 gp. The packet states that a higher-bonus item would likely cost more, as it would be rarer. So a +2 item would be, at the absolute least, 501 gp. Not something a 1st-level character could afford. ;)
If you've got players that expect to be able to buy anything within their cost range just because they can afford it, then I'm afraid I just can't help you. You may want to avoid letting your players read the magic item section if that's the case. I use the price as a rough guideline for what players could afford if- hypothetically- they found a person willing to sell a magic item. The rarity of the magic item, in my campaign, plays a big role in the availibility of the item. Common items are likely purchasable in small numbers at large markets, Uncommon items must be sought for before purchase, Rare items likely require long-distance travel to find a seller, Very Rare items are probably only sold in foreign countries, and thus the Players would not have access to them until they have access to those countries. Legendary items almost certainly can't be bought, and Artifacts are part of the campaign and do not belong in a randomly-generated treasure hoard or a magic-item market. 
Also, about buying +2 items at character creation, the price of a +1 is 100-500 gp. The packet states that a higher-bonus item would likely cost more, as it would be rarer. So a +2 item would be, at the absolute least, 501 gp. Not something a 1st-level character could afford. ;)



Again you are missing the point. There are entire campaign worlds built around the idea of readily available magic items and entire economies that run on magic item commerce...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
@Lokiare I was addressing someone who had said a 1st-level character could start with a +2 weapon. I was simply pointing out that this was untrue, and trying to help him manage a problem he had with players expecting to be able to buy magic items freely in a low-magic setting.
As for the matter of settings such as Eberron, I don't see a problem with increasing the availability of magic items as the system stands now. One method for balancing high-magic settings I enjoy using involves the following question: if there's so many magic items out there, how much more common will magic-item wielding baddies be? So a group of orcs may now be (at least partially) armed with magic axes. Likewise, the party probably has more magic items than it would in a different setting. Or is the problem convincing your players not to expect magic items as part of progression? I'm noticing a number of sub-topics getting started in this thread... 
It's not that the costs are too low, it's that there are costs at all. That should NEVER happen, except in a world unbelievably saturated in magic...like even moreso than Forgotten Realms. Yes, if there's magic items there will be a trade in them, but since we're talking about a largely medieval economy it should be among royalty and nobels only, and more secretative than drug or slave markets. No one else should have a chance of affording it. Realistically a full strength healing potion should cost what a peasant family makes in a year.

I realize this is personal opinion, but it's a vital one in that the game makes certain assumptions regarding what characters will have access to at given levels (ie power level). I realize they've said that's not true, but it's ALWAYS true. You simply can't avoid it. Unless you require all modules and encounter designs be based upon core 4 humans with no backgrounds/specialties/themes or items. In doing so you make them useless to people who play higher power levels as they'd have to double or triple the numbers to have an equal challenge. This is another situation where you either have everything modular, or you release entirely separate games. One game cannot fit all playstyles.

For those of us who play games where characters can't even afford plate until 6-10th level introduction of this level of magic is a game breaker.

Selling magic items is almost exactly like selling reallife works of art. Usually items are inherited, “on loan” to museums or causes, donated, or so on. Auctions exist, but then the rich from all over the multiverse come to bid.

I hate to say it, but maybe its even more like trade in priceless archeological artifacts. With illegal smuggling versus entire nations claiming ownership.
I think that magic item pricing is good way to gauge item's relative power in comparison to others.

And yes selling one lvl20 magic item can feed a small nation for a year, same way selling of FA-22 Raptor(150.000.000,00$) can feed a lot of folks in 3rd world countries for entire year.

But owning magic items and even getting access to powerfull ones should be difficult and many times illegal.

As in the real world many people can afford an F-22 or few of them, it doesn't mean that they can buy them(not legally atleast).

And if you are "cleared" for use of those items and you "go rogue" with them or against your nation/masters interest then there will be people that will hunt you down and reclaim those, like "Githyanki Swordstalkers".


Also adding pluses to items is a good way for players to track their progress and quality of their gear.

As normal sword can be compared to rusty M-16 or AK-47 from 1980s, a +3 sword with some extra gimmick can be compared to XM8 or XK11 with nightvision, thermalvision, laser targeting, laser range finder, tungsten ammunition, integral grenade launcher etc...
and ofc not everyone can walk around downtown with it even if it can be afforded.

I think that magic item pricing is good way to gauge item's relative power in comparison to others.

And yes selling one lvl20 magic item can feed a small nation for a year, same way selling of FA-22 Raptor(150.000.000,00$) can feed a lot of folks in 3rd world countries for entire year.

But owning magic items and even getting access to powerfull ones should be difficult and many times illegal.

As in the real world many people can afford an F-22 or few of them, it doesn't mean that they can buy them(not legally atleast).

And if you are "cleared" for use of those items and you "go rogue" with them or against your nation/masters interest then there will be people that will hunt you down and reclaim those, like "Githyanki Swordstalkers".


Also adding pluses to items is a good way for players to track their progress and quality of their gear.

As normal sword can be compared to rusty M-16 or AK-47 from 1980s, a +3 sword with some extra gimmick can be compared to XM8 or XK11 with nightvision, thermalvision, laser targeting, laser range finder, tungsten ammunition, integral grenade launcher etc...
and ofc not everyone can walk around downtown with it even if it can be afforded.




Didn't coke almost go bankrupt when that one guy got enough points to buy that F-150?
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Im happy with the descriptions of magic items lacking prices. I feel magic should be inherently unsellable.

Terms of acquisitions should be arrangements that further the goal or theme of the magic item. Part of attunement.

In settings where there is a market in magic, the way the Magic Items document has it now is fine, a separate table with vague rough suggestive prices depending on relative rarity.

If it is possible to determine the XP Adjustment value for magic item, measuring the powers that an item adds to the character sheet, then different settings could also have different monetary conversions using the XP Adjustment value.

Still, settings that have magic items but lack a market for them are awesome. They do feel more magical and quests to acquire specific items (or modifications of current items) make meaningful rewards.



By the way, I like the L&L article comment suggesting magic item creation (beyond common minor items) is an aspect of a high level, 10+ game. That seems like good flavor and a fun thing to wait for.