Seriously, Hold Person?

I noticed that Hold Person instantly drops a target's speed to 0 and allows them to make a Wisdom save against paralysis for a minute if they have 50 or more HP.  Hold Person is a level 2 spell, which is available for a 3rd level wizard.

Now the class in the playtest currently with the highest hit die, being a d10, is the fighter.  If a fighter miraculously had 20 constitution and miraculously maximized his HP for his first three levels, he would still only have 45 HP, not allowing him even a chance to roll to save.  That's a best case scenario, nevermind any other reasonable character class and build. 

A more reasonably statted fighter with a +2 con modifier who received the default 6 + con modifier HP per level, with maximized HP at first level would have to be, what, level 6 before he gets to make a saving throw?  That's a fighter, mind you.  Nevermind casting a spell like that on somebody with less con and a lower hit die, which is more likely.  Furthermore, the speed drop cannot be saved against.  At all.

Isn't it a bit unreasonable that a lower level spell is an auto-success for so long?  Even instantly dropping a melee character's speed to 0 for a minute puts them completely out of the fight.
The spells are balanced to monster HP not PC HP.

You wont see too many monsters with hold person other than one offs which the other players could easily tear down. 
I'm not sure I see the problem.  If a third level fighter charges a third level wizard, as your scenario proposes, it all comes down to whether the wizard has used her Hold Person spell.  If not, she fires it off, and lives.  If so, she doesn't and dies on the end of the warrior's sword.  Isn't that the entire rationale behind the daily major spell?  That it effectively balances the wizard's resource-management issues with more at-will type classes like the fighter?  Seems perfectly balanced to me.


Besides, if that warrior doesn't have some henchmen in the wings, he should be a gonner anyway.  Silly prat.

 
I'm not sure I see the problem.  If a third level fighter charges a third level wizard, as your scenario proposes, it all comes down to whether the wizard has used her Hold Person spell.  If not, she fires it off, and lives.  If so, she doesn't and dies on the end of the warrior's sword.  Isn't that the entire rationale behind the daily major spell?  That it effectively balances the wizard's resource-management issues with more at-will type classes like the fighter?  Seems perfectly balanced to me.


Besides, if that warrior doesn't have some henchmen in the wings, he should be a gonner anyway.  Silly prat.

 



Silly Fighter, expecting to be capable of doing anything on your own.
I'm not sure I see the problem.  If a third level fighter charges a third level wizard, as your scenario proposes, it all comes down to whether the wizard has used her Hold Person spell.  If not, she fires it off, and lives.  If so, she doesn't and dies on the end of the warrior's sword.  Isn't that the entire rationale behind the daily major spell?  That it effectively balances the wizard's resource-management issues with more at-will type classes like the fighter?  Seems perfectly balanced to me.


Besides, if that warrior doesn't have some henchmen in the wings, he should be a gonner anyway.  Silly prat.

 



To me, this admirably demonstrates the problem with 'save or die' spells.  An entire battle should not boil down to a single die roll.
I still prefer the original version of hold person that gave you mutliple targets and effectively paralyzed you if you failed your save.    

Compared to the old version, 5e is tame.   


Hold person is a HORRIBLY overpowered spell. Every reasonable playtester knows that already. Hopefully it will receive errata soon. 

I still prefer the original version of hold person that gave you mutliple targets and effectively paralyzed you if you failed your save.    

Compared to the old version, 5e is tame.   



And yet it's still stupidly overpowered.
The spells are balanced to monster HP not PC HP.

You wont see too many monsters with hold person other than one offs which the other players could easily tear down. 



From the Bestiary, a drow has 27 HP at level 5, gnoll leader has 27 at level 3, ogre has 32 at level 4.  Oh, wait, look!  A minotaur has 52 HP at level 6! 

What you say is simply not true.  HP is pretty similar between PCs and monsters per level, with the exception of damage sponges like the gelatinous cube.  It seems absurd to me that such a low level spell can take out monsters that are double the caster's level without any sort of challenge or contest.

The spells are balanced to monster HP not PC HP.

You wont see too many monsters with hold person other than one offs which the other players could easily tear down. 



Yes, which means it affects all the monsters in the play test without a save except the Gelatinous Cube, Minotaur, and Troll... those three get saves...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
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I quite like hold person. It's a good example of a "cake or death" spell that's always worth keeping in your back pocket for when you need to control the field.


I think the max HP thing for spells in general is stupid, but if that's what they're sticking to then I'll live with it (and the topic of a different thread).



But yeah.. don't see any problems there.


I quite like hold person. It's a good example of a "cake or death" spell that's always worth keeping in your back pocket for when you need to control the field.


I think the max HP thing for spells in general is stupid, but if that's what they're sticking to then I'll live with it (and the topic of a different thread).



But yeah.. don't see any problems there.



Of course not, you're likely a Wizard/Magic User fan.  For those of us who actually RUN the game, this is a headache and a half-waiting to happen.
I still prefer the original version of hold person that gave you mutliple targets and effectively paralyzed you if you failed your save.    

Compared to the old version, 5e is tame.   



Been ages.  Wasn't it like 2-5 targets?

I quite like hold person. It's a good example of a "cake or death" spell that's always worth keeping in your back pocket for when you need to control the field.


I think the max HP thing for spells in general is stupid, but if that's what they're sticking to then I'll live with it (and the topic of a different thread).



But yeah.. don't see any problems there.




Of course not, you're likely a Wizard/Magic User fan.  For those of us who actually RUN the game, this is a headache and a half-waiting to happen.



Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realise this wasn't an open forum and a thread inviting people's personal opinions. My bad.


Hold person is a HORRIBLY overpowered spell. Every reasonable playtester knows that already. Hopefully it will receive errata soon. 




I expect it will.  If not in the next packet, then by the one after that.  Given that they feel that wizards are mostly done, they may concentrate on other things and not get back to correcting little flaws like Hold Person for a while.
I'd hardly call that a little problem.
Point to KAdim, 


However do consider that the DM has to be able to stomach the game in order to run it. IF the DM is utterly disgusted with the rules there won't be any players.



I have run games with a wizard that did use that spell. It's fine. So one guy can't move. Whup-dee-do. His three friends will be with the wizard shortly.

My problem is that effectively removes any sort of "solo" encounter from the game. That encounter now MUST have a big guy with 50 HP or cast Hold Person = Dead. I never cared for Save or Die because it was just to sudden and....well anti-climatic for the group and DM. I have no problem with targets automatically getting a Saving Throw no matter what their HP threshold is, or if the threshold is going to stay, then lower it a bit to more appropriate levels, like the avg. HP for monsters of 3rd level.
I still prefer the original version of hold person that gave you mutliple targets and effectively paralyzed you if you failed your save.    

Compared to the old version, 5e is tame.   



Been ages.  Wasn't it like 2-5 targets?




I think you're thinking of Sleep.   Hold person was 1d4.  

Show

Hold Person

(Enchantment/Charm)






















Sphere: Charm 

Range: 120 yds. 
Components: V, S, M 
Duration: 2 rds./level 
Casting Time: 5 
Area of Effect: 1d4 persons in 20-ft. cube 
Saving Throw: Neg. 





This spell holds 1d4 humans, demihumans, or humanoid creatures rigidly immobile and in place for a minimum of six rounds (the spell lasts 2 rounds per caster level, and the priest must be of at least 3rd level to cast the spell).

The hold person spell affects any bipedal human, demihuman, or humanoid of man size or smaller, including brownies, dryads, dwarves, elves, gnolls, gnomes, goblins, half-elves, halflings, half-orcs, hobgoblins, humans, kobolds, lizard men, nixies, orcs, pixies, sprites, troglodytes, and others. Thus, a 10th-level fighter could be held, while an ogre could not.


The effect is centered on a point selected by the caster, and it affects persons selected by the caster within the area of effect. If the spell is cast at three persons, each gets a normal saving throw; if only two persons are being enspelled, each rolls his saving throw with a -1 penalty; if the spell is cast at only one person, the saving throw die roll suffers a -2 penalty. Saving throws are adjusted for Wisdom. Those who succeed on their saving throws are totally unaffected by the spell. Undead creatures cannot be held.


Held creatures cannot move or speak, but they remain aware of events around them and can use abilities not requiring motion or speech. Being held does not prevent the worsening of the subjects' condition due to wounds, disease, or poison. The priest casting the hold person spell can end the spell with a single utterance at any time; otherwise, the duration is six rounds at 3rd level, eight rounds at 4th level, etc.


The spellcaster needs a small, straight piece of iron as the material component of this spell.

 



Hold person is a HORRIBLY overpowered spell. Every reasonable playtester knows that already. Hopefully it will receive errata soon. 




I expect it will.  If not in the next packet, then by the one after that.  Given that they feel that wizards are mostly done, they may concentrate on other things and not get back to correcting little flaws like Hold Person for a while.




my suggestion is to add a save, remove the hit point limit, and include 1d4 creatures in a 20 radius.

I'd even bring back the bipedal human, demihuman, or humanoid of man size or smaller limitation.  


I'd hardly call that a little problem.



This early in the playtest, any issue with a spell is a little problem.  They have bigger fish to fry right now.
Point to KAdim, 


However do consider that the DM has to be able to stomach the game in order to run it. IF the DM is utterly disgusted with the rules there won't be any players.



I have run games with a wizard that did use that spell. It's fine. So one guy can't move. Whup-dee-do. His three friends will be with the wizard shortly.




Actually, the fact that you get saving throws as your action each round makes it a little better. I mean, it's powerful, but perhaps it's not totally broken as I believed.
In the games I run, cause fear is preferred.  Hit points for monsters in the beastiary are just guess work anyway.  My players never know how many hit points the monsters have until the monster falls over dead.

They loved the Gnoll Leader that had maxed 5d8+5 hit points and toughness.  40+5+16 = 61 hit points.  Haha Beastiary, I laugh at your average hit points for BBEGs.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

I noticed that Hold Person instantly drops a target's speed to 0 and allows them to make a Wisdom save against paralysis for a minute if they have 50 or more HP.  Hold Person is a level 2 spell, which is available for a 3rd level wizard.

Now the class in the playtest currently with the highest hit die, being a d10, is the fighter.  If a fighter miraculously had 20 constitution and miraculously maximized his HP for his first three levels, he would still only have 45 HP, not allowing him even a chance to roll to save.  That's a best case scenario, nevermind any other reasonable character class and build. 

A more reasonably statted fighter with a +2 con modifier who received the default 6 + con modifier HP per level, with maximized HP at first level would have to be, what, level 6 before he gets to make a saving throw?  That's a fighter, mind you.  Nevermind casting a spell like that on somebody with less con and a lower hit die, which is more likely.  Furthermore, the speed drop cannot be saved against.  At all.

Isn't it a bit unreasonable that a lower level spell is an auto-success for so long?  Even instantly dropping a melee character's speed to 0 for a minute puts them completely out of the fight.


I was just listening to a GenCon podcast where they talk about hold person and how they know it's broke and "unpublishable" but they're leaving it alone because they had more important things to do, such as fixing the entire classes. They don't want to tweak it only to have to go an tweak it again down the line. It's more efficient to look at it when they have the time to do it right and produce a better draft rather than slap together a patch that will likely need the same development time regardless. 

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Also check out my books at 5mwd.com/publishingIncluding Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuildinga compilation of my blog series on Worldbuilding.

 

Hold Person in its current form is just kind of left over from the initial playtest push where they were designing a cute gizmo with blinky lights to get people's attention instead of designing an actual game. They know it's wack; it's just that they're messing more with core system stuff than spell design at the moment.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
The spells are balanced to monster HP not PC HP.

You wont see too many monsters with hold person other than one offs which the other players could easily tear down. 




You need to re think that particular statement. come to my table and see how many spell casters you run into. Monsters from the books are all fine and dandy but fully half of the adversaries my players meet have class levels and dish out the same damage and use the same spells as the players do. 

I do not like hit point thresholds and will not use them I'll dig out my older books and base my conversions on them.

Eventually the devs are going to realize that their system is not viable and will have to make changes. the issue right now is they have bigger fish to fry so they aren't focusing on those changes yet. At least I really hope that's the reason. 
The spells are balanced to monster HP not PC HP.

You wont see too many monsters with hold person other than one offs which the other players could easily tear down. 




You need to re think that particular statement. come to my table and see how many spell casters you run into. Monsters from the books are all fine and dandy but fully half of the adversaries my players meet have class levels and dish out the same damage and use the same spells as the players do.


"I can ignore the system mechanics and adventure guidelines, and then things break!"

Shocking result.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I'm not a fan of the auto-success aspect of some spells, such as this. It really ruins that moment of good tension, where a player waits to see if their spell takes effect or not. Against most of the bestiary, this is an auto-kill to whatever it targets. If this spell allowed a save to anyone it targets for the paralysis effect, I'd be prefectly happy with it. As a DM, as it's written now it feels pretty unfair. My players love it of course, but so far in this edition they don't have to worry about facing it. That's another issue I have, I've always felt players should have to fear the same sorts of things that they're enjoying dishing out. But it's still early in the test, and we'll see how things proceed from here.

I hate save or die spells. And I hate HP thresholds where you are immune if you are above it and dead if you are below it.

For Save or Die: I liked 4E spells that had escalating effects for each time you failed a save. So the when the spell is cast it is Save or Bad, then on your next turn you make another save and it gets worse everytime you fail.

And For HP Thresholds: Everyone should get a chance to save, give advantage or disadvantage on the save based on caster level vs target level. If your target is 3 levels below you, they have disadvantage on the save. If your target is 3 levels above you, they have disadvantage on the save.
I hate save or die spells. And I hate HP thresholds where you are immune if you are above it and dead if you are below it.



High Con = Magic Resistance. I really don't like HP thresholds.


For Save or Die: I liked 4E spells that had escalating effects for each time you failed a save. So the when the spell is cast it is Save or Bad, then on your next turn you make another save and it gets worse everytime you fail.



I've never played 4e, but I like this. I'd like to see some spells in the playtest modeled after this.


I hate save or die spells. And I hate HP thresholds where you are immune if you are above it and dead if you are below it.



High Con = Magic Resistance. I really don't like HP thresholds.

Your sentences seem to contradict each other. I am not sure if your first sentence is meant to be sarcastic.

On the topic of Con as Magic Resistance, I would be fine with it if it was done right. But HP thresholds are based much more on class and level than Con, so that is not a good way to do it.

I could see an optional rule like:
Whenever you make an X saving throw, use your [X Mod] or [Con Mod], whichever is higher.

or the less powerful
Whenever you make an X saving throw, use your [X Mod] or [Average of Con Mod and X Mod], whichever is higher.


Or if we want to do spells thresholds, have a spell say if their [Con Score + Level] is greater than some number, then they get advantage on saves.

These are much better ways to have Con represent magic resistance.

Given that they feel that wizards are mostly done





Seems to me they are tweaking on them hard, unfortunately, IMO.

That last article has me very wary. 
Given that they feel that wizards are mostly done





Seems to me they are tweaking on them hard, unfortunately, IMO.

That last article has me very wary. 



Well, we will see.  Not much else we can do at this point but wait 
This thread is just another example of why HP thresholds are a horrible idea.
Con and hitpoints ..instinct, luck and life force... yeh resisting of a spell the fighter way.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Con and hitpoints ..instinct, luck and life force... yeh resisting of a spell the fighter way.



I think they should let characters spend a hit die to make an additional saving throw against an effect they're under. That would, IMO, better represent an investment of luck, life force, heroic tenacity, etc. than HP thresholds.
Con and hitpoints ..instinct, luck and life force... yeh resisting of a spell the fighter way.



I think they should let characters spend a hit die to make an additional saving throw against an effect they're under. That would, IMO, better represent an investment of luck, life force, heroic tenacity, etc. than HP thresholds.



sure thats ok...  And yet it wouldnt allow allies to batter down resistance and still leave the spell caster playing his own game instead of as a team player... nyeh not as good.

Mind control is rather dark you know subjects of abuse are manipuable. 
and on the other side of that darkness.
Its called playing good cop bad cop...  the saving throw on the charm spell gets a big penalty if the caster hasnt delivered any damage to the subject, its seems quite fitting.  


  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Hold Person in its current form is just kind of left over from the initial playtest push where they were designing a cute gizmo with blinky lights to get people's attention instead of designing an actual game. They know it's wack; it's just that they're messing more with core system stuff than spell design at the moment.



Umm... you realize they pretty much said they are done with designing core right?Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Hold Person in its current form is just kind of left over from the initial playtest push where they were designing a cute gizmo with blinky lights to get people's attention instead of designing an actual game. They know it's wack; it's just that they're messing more with core system stuff than spell design at the moment.



Umm... you realize they pretty much said they are done with designing core right?

I think that the core material the devs are working with is pretty close to being done, which still has 2 months worth of changes compared to what we are workin with.

And just because something is "mostly done" doesn't mean they won't fix problems that arise. It basically means they are sticking with the system and not making big changes, like swapping back to Fort, Ref, and Will. Or changing how ability modifiers scale. Or making heavy armor give DR instead of AC.

Hold Person in its current form is just kind of left over from the initial playtest push where they were designing a cute gizmo with blinky lights to get people's attention instead of designing an actual game. They know it's wack; it's just that they're messing more with core system stuff than spell design at the moment.



Umm... you realize they pretty much said they are done with designing core right?

I think that the core material the devs are working with is pretty close to being done, which still has 2 months worth of changes compared to what we are workin with.

And just because something is "mostly done" doesn't mean they won't fix problems that arise. It basically means they are sticking with the system and not making big changes, like swapping back to Fort, Ref, and Will. Or changing how ability modifiers scale. Or making heavy armor give DR instead of AC.




I was replying to this:

"They know it's wack; it's just that they're messing more with core system stuff than spell design at the moment."
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.